XW231 and XW222 - Whats the story?

[Mark Nine]

Just had an interesting tour around Eurocopters deep maintenance/accident repair hangar at Marignane. Tucked away in a corner and covered in dust are Puma's XW231 and XW222, both with identical damage. Big hole in the underside below the pilots feet, various external fittings ripped from stbd side and deep skin scratches on stbd side.
There was nobody in the hangar who could tell us what had caused the damage or what was going to happen to them. General consensus amongst the visitors was that it looked like transportation damage.

[s70a9]

Termites?:hmm:

[Role1a]

Apparently
Not so Low Loader and low bridge.
But don’t quote me!!

[Airborne Aircrew]

Ahhh... XW231... Recognized that the moment I saw it. I remember her well... So much so I checked my logbook.... I first flew her on May 14th 1985 abseiling chaps out the back with a FO Stubbs, (don't recall the chap). I last flew her on the 11th February 1988 on BSE with an ex AAC pilot Flt Lt Dave R*****L.

I don't have XW222 in my log book so I'm guessing it was a 230 Sqn kite back then...

[Mark Nine]

Surely you can't get 2 Puma on one low loader. Or did the same f:mad:wit driver take the same route twice?

[Fareastdriver]

Good old 'ttttrrrrrembbbbbllllllllling ttttttttwo'. I was on 33 but 230 took delivery of XW 222. When it arrived it had a peculiar vibration that gave it it's name. These were before the days of Chadwick and suchlike and they could never find the reason. It used to have to fly around on 14 degrees pitch to make it bearable. The boss wanted the aircraft declared a rogue and be sent off to fester in an MU but those days had gone. It fell out of the conversations eventually so I suppose they sorted out something.
I haven't got my log books with me but I think I picked up 231 from the factory. Westlands had lots of forms to fill in and after that I saw a Stationary Office lined book that appeared to be a temporary F700. The first entry was for 0:05 mins.. 'Severe vibration in Hover.' / 'Main rotors, MRG .and tail rotor transmission changed'. It had a further 3 hours and then I flew it to an MU where it was Xmas treed for spares. It came on to 33 later when we had bent a few.

[Green Flash]

So, we are banjaxed for anything with a fan on the roof and there are two (OK, rather bent) Pumas festering in France - when are they gonna be fixed then?

[St Johns Wort]

First of the Mk IIs?

[Tiger_mate]

Recycle:

They could probably make an NH90 between them, and be usefull.

SF NH90 with lots of toys aboard :ok:

..& take a lesson from the French in New Caledonia, a fixed forward facing cannon tends to make people keep their heads down.

[Fareastdriver]

SJW could be right. Once they get the go ahead they will bin the fuselages, start again with a new 332 blank with the stronger top deck, replace all the dynamic components and charge Aunty Betty the same as a new 332 plus the cost of environmentally disposing of the knackered, time expired components.

[ShyTorque]

I last flew XW222 in September 1983, from Gutersloh, with the late George Blackie.

Now, by a strange twist of fate and coincidence, I've just bought part of her, although it was removed at RNAY Fleetlands in February 1995.

So what's happened to the rest of old "Trembling Two" - anyone know?

[ShyTorque]

I've discovered that XW222 was "alive and well" last summer. I've found some online photos of her taking part in the 2012 Olympics security operation.

[Rigga]

Back in the days of an Air Force that could repair itself - Units called "MU's" used to repair Puma Nose Gear Box Structures without any issues. When on 431 MU at Bruggen we repaired two Harrier GR3's (One CAT 4 the other CAT 5) and at least one CAT 4 Puma.

I know that there is a small unit now that does some repairs - but I am not sure of its real repair capability. I have even heard recent talk of the RAF team being ingraciously replaced for a more capable civil team.


What does the mention of any registration mark spark so many Logbook hunts? Are there really so many spotters out there?

[Beancountercymru]

Another example Rigga, albeit at what was at the time the naval equivalent of an MU - DARA Fleetlands

MoD admit RAF Chinook was made by fusing two old helicopters together | The Sun |News|Campaigns|Our Boys (http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/campaigns/our_boys/2541167/MoD-admit-RAF-Chinook-was-made-by-fusing-two-old-helicopters-together.html)

Though The Sun did overdramatise somewhat

[Fareastdriver]

Beancountercymru

Not new. One of the Belvederes was a ringer.

[The Helpful Stacker]

Wasn't the 'half' fitted to ZA704 the rear pylon and some ancillaries from ZH257?

Given The Sun's previous I'm surprised the article wasn't title 'Bodgecha' or some such twaddle.

[WASALOADIE]

I believe that following an accident, one of the Puma's on 33 had the tailboom from an Argie puma that was brought back from the Falklands. Then they decided to use the Argie fuselage to make up for an attrition loss by demodding the Argie fuselage and had to buy a new tailboom, then mod it to RAF standard and it was still flying around 10 years ago. So there are plenty of cut and shuts. However, having flown on some of them, you would never know.

[Alber Ratman]

Rigga, 431 MU would never have repaired CAT 4 or CAT 5 aircraft, CAT 4 was manufacturer repair using production / special jigs by CWP or back at their plant and CAT 5 = beyond economical repair/ totally fooked.. CAT 3 was the level they worked to, same as RSS did in the UK (bar all choppers that was the preserve of MARTSU then DARA Fleetlands). RSS did all the CAT 3's on the navy fixed wing fleet mind. :ooh:

RSS still exists in some form based at St Athan... Been there 21 years in June (I escaped to Colt when it moved from Abo.) Any repairs to RAF fixed wing that is catorgorised beyond CAT 2 used to go through them for further assessment or repair (any repair over 250 hours to do was the old trigger) although I'm no longer in the loop if BAE have taken this over within their maintenance contracts for CAT 3 work during maintenance, as rumoured when I was leaving.. But you know more about that than I do!:E

[NutLoose]

Anyone remember MARTSU, mostly navy types that used to frequent Odious doing major repairs....

Cannot understand why the services are looking at farming it out, you will probably find a lot of civilians that would make up the team would be ex Services who would have a lot more experience than the average serviceman in the field, it's not rocket science and you could soon bring service personnel up to speed on such repairs by farming them out on loan, they would then be able to form a nucleus such of a team.
The services these days seems to have lost a lot of the skill base they once had with farming everything out to the civilian world, much to the degradation of the core structure.

[Rigga]

Yes Albert - I do indeed know what the categories are. The categories were as I stated and I do know what I helped repair.
The Harriers were both jobs that BAe turned down but "we" at 431 replaced both undercarriage mounting Beams and an integral water tank after a maintenance overpressurisation. The jobs took several years to complete.(mainly waiting for BAe to complete there tasks)

The Puma rolled over on the side of the river in Hameln and side skins, the Nose-Gear Box Structure and the Tail needed significant repairs. Giggest job was re-jigging the Barbeque Plate on the cabs roof inside the MU MT Hangar.

MARTSU (MASU) did not deploy to NW Europe which was the sole reserve of 431MU

[Alber Ratman]

Love BBQ plates... NOT!:(

Thats why 431 did all the AAC choppers too... :eek:

[Lyneham Lad]

Yes Albert - I do indeed know what the categories are. The categories were as I stated and I do know what I helped repair.
The Harriers were both jobs that BAe turned down but "we" at 431 replaced both undercarriage mounting Beams and an integral water tank after a maintenance overpressurisation. The jobs took several years to complete.(mainly waiting for BAe to complete there tasks)

Indeed - I was the Chief Tech 'Surveyor' for that particular Harrier. It had suffered engine failure on the approach and plonked down very hard indeed. The nose u/c was pushed backwards and upwards requiring major repairs to the frames aft of the nose bay. The two main undercarriage beams suffered distortion from the up-thrust of the main gear and the unreplaceable Frame 19 (?) at the front of the beams also suffered damage that was within a thou or two of being totally out of limits. As Rigga wrote, BAe turned the job down as, whilst they had replaced individual beams, they had never replaced both (how to maintain datums for the u/c pintle bearings?). However, politics reared it's ugly head in that a/c repair functions carried out by 431 MU were under threat and the 'Powers that be' saw the repair of XZ 131 as a justification for retaining the manpower and purpose. The Design Repair Authority at Dunsfold were intrigued by how we went about it and two of their most experienced designers came out on a visit to view and discuss the methodology (and went home with severe hangovers - but that is another story). Somewhere I have a photo of the repaired fuselage on a low-loader, ready for despatch back to Güt, with the team proudly standing in front.

PS - just found it... (I am sixth from the left - but look nothing like that now!)

http://www.kmercerphotography.co.uk/431MU_950.jpg

[tonkaplonka]

Were these the two pumas that ended up on their side at Baghdad Airport? If so it's good to know they're up and flying again.

[NutLoose]

There was one ended up on its side in ASF at Odiham :E

[Fareastdriver]

When they tow Pumas around in strong winds do they still tell the towing party to have both main doors open to stop it being blown over.

[Rigga]

Lyneham Lad,
I recognise Mick Swift, Chris Baggley, Clive Clark and a few other faces but not more names...
I wonder where I was that day?
Rigga

[Lyneham Lad]

Lyneham Lad,
I recognise Mick Swift, Chris Baggley, Clive Clark and a few other faces but not more names...
I wonder where I was that day?
Rigga

Fifth from left is Jess Harker. As to your location? Well as it was 1984 maybe Big Brother should be consulted. ;)

[Rigga]

LOL!
You must've followed me from Laarbruch or Honington.

[Gnd]

I first flew her on May 14th 1985 abseiling chaps out the back with a FO Stubbs, (don't recall the chap

Is that the chap with quite a nice office near the IOT school?:O

[sparky5udr]

RAF 230 SQ Puma XW222 - is now in the Ulster Aviation Society hanger, outside Lisburn NI

[Q-SKI]

Yes Albert - I do indeed know what the categories are. The categories were as I stated and I do know what I helped repair.
The Harriers were both jobs that BAe turned down but "we" at 431 replaced both undercarriage mounting Beams and an integral water tank after a maintenance overpressurisation. The jobs took several years to complete.(mainly waiting for BAe to complete there tasks)

The Puma rolled over on the side of the river in Hameln and side skins, the Nose-Gear Box Structure and the Tail needed significant repairs. Giggest job was re-jigging the Barbeque Plate on the cabs roof inside the MU MT Hangar.

MARTSU (MASU) did not deploy to NW Europe which was the sole reserve of 431MU

I was the crewman onboard, not so much roll over but tail rotor failure on the approach to land, intermediate gearbox decided to stop playing resulting in a stunning arrival at LZ!

[Fareastdriver]

intermediate gearbox decided to stop playing resulting in a stunning arrival at LZ!

The AS332 Super Pumas had overheat warnings for the inter and tailrotor gearboxes.

I wonder if Aerospatial knew about the problem already?

Was XW222 donated by Airbus helicopters? GTIGE, an ex Bristow 332L, which was traded in for a 225, fully serviceable but due for a Check 4 (the big one), was donated to the Helicopter Museum at Weston Super Mare.

[NutLoose]

Biggest job was re-jigging the Barbeque Plate on the cabs roof inside the MU MT Hangar.

I had to do the alignment checks on a Puma Engine mounts using the scope thing and shims for the feet, It took ages and although i nearly got them spot on i couldn't get them perfectly aligned, in the end the question was asked and Aerospatial came back with what sight windows are you using?, it turned out there were two sets with different limits, one for in use after the thing had flexed and one for manufacture, the new tooling we got came with the manufacture sights fitted lol, after we got the correct sights it was spot on.

[oldbeefer]

Just found this thread. Log book tells me I first flew tremblers on 14 Feb72. The hours we spent trying to cure the vibe problem.

[Fareastdriver]

I had to do the alignment checks on a Puma Engine mounts

You were probably using the alignment tool the Air Force 'borrowed' from Bristow in about 1980.

[ShyTorque]

RAF 230 SQ Puma XW222 - is now in the Ulster Aviation Society hanger, outside Lisburn NI

Not all of it ;) - I've got her green Decometer on my bedroom shelf (along with the 'Serviceable' label). Bought legally and above board, I hasten to add.

[ShyTorque]

I was the crewman onboard, not so much roll over but tail rotor failure on the approach to land, intermediate gearbox decided to stop playing resulting in a stunning arrival at LZ!

Q-SKI, very long time no see!

I was brought in off leave to replace the pilot, aka "The flying vicar"!
You were damned lucky you hadn't picked up the usl because otherwise I reckon you'd have been in the Weser! When we arrived at the engineers park the aircraft was propped up by some long pieces of 4 by 2 with the port u/c hanging off.

The inter gearbox securing bolts hadn't been manufactured correctly, so torquing them up just caused the nuts to reach the ends of their threads, leaving the gearbox slightly loose on it's mounts and able to move until the Flector pack failed.

[ShyTorque]

I last flew XW231 in January 1994 and left the RAF shortly afterwards. Back then she was an OCU aircraft.

My last ever Puma flight was, rather ironically, an engineering airtest in the oldest Puma, XW198, in February 1994.

[lsh]

I have a photo, how do I post?
Photobucket no good now - what would host the photo?

lsh
:E

[glad rag]

Fifth from left is Jess Harker.


Now there's a name from the past!

Awfully nice bloke and one he'll of a fitter, among other things...

[A and C]

From my observation RAF technicians only just get enough trade training to enable them to do their day to day jobs and don’t have the knowlage or skill to do any large or complex repair ............. blame it on the bean counters.

[NutLoose]

Ish, click on the curved arrow on flickr, click on bb select a size then copy and paste the link here and voila


https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4599/39337832421_3f79566cf6_c.jpg

[NutLoose]

From my observation RAF technicians only just get enough trade training to enable them to do their day to day jobs and don’t have the knowlage or skill to do any large or complex repair ............. blame it on the bean counters.


Never used to be like that... sad isn't it.

[glad rag]

From my observation RAF technicians only just get enough trade training to enable them to do their day to day jobs and don’t have the knowlage or skill to do any large or complex repair ............. blame it on the bean counters.

Oh yes, "savings had to be made"....:ugh:

[NutLoose]

I looked on the web and thought the course times hadn't changed much until I realised they are now all combined, so at least two, possibly three trades have been combined into the time a previous single trade course roughly was. No wonder the standards have dropped.