180° turns on the runway

[Broomstick Flier]

Hi..

Me and a mate were discussing this without a consensus: when doing a 180° on the runway (either in the middle or THR), should this turn be done left to right or right to left? We were not able to find any written regulation, but my point was that good airmanship would mean making it left to right.
Is this open to personal preference?

Thanks

BF

[stator vane]

aren't some things obvious?

who's driving the aircraft???

he/she can do it any way they wish--

if you have ever been in the flightdeck, most steering wheels are on the left, so, the beginning process of the turn would require getting as close as safely possible to the side of the runway which would obviously demand that he/she would start the process nearest the side on which he/she is sitting.

unless of course you come to a round-a-bout, then you must follow the rules of the country you are in---which would require GETTING OFF THE ROAD!!!!

[WaterMeths]

In our company either the Captain or the FO taxies the aircraft depending on who is PF. A 180 on the runway is performed best by taking a track along the centre'ish then a 30 degree cut towards the side of the runway that you are sitting on. In that case you can better judge the distance to the edge. If a tightish turn is anticipated then going over the edge is OK as long as you don't go daft - because the nose gear on the airbus is quite away back.

[flt_lt_w_mitty]

Whatever 'turns you on':)

(ASSUMING single tiller, of course) right to left enables progress to be monitored by steerer but left to right means you can probably get closer to the edge before you turn. Then, of course, we have runway lights, edge surface condition (FOD risks) and side 'turning bays' to consider for a few thoughts.

I DO hope it does not become a regulatory issue.:)

[Broomstick Flier]

Thanks for the valid points so far, our main concern during this conversation was specifically about distance to the edge and taking in account that here all ground movements are made by the commander (irrespective of PF/PNF status) my point was that left to right would be on the safe side in regards to lateral limits.

@stator vane

No Sir, I'm not joking, I don't make jokes before lunch time, and yes, I've been inside the flightdeck many times (albeit I only hold a CPL/IR license). Sorry if the question sounded pedestrian, but once I was told there are no stupid questions in this business, perhaps it is not the case in the UK

[stator vane]

i didn't say the question was stupid--

but some things are indeed more obvious than others--

whatever aircraft you have flown, which way do you find it better to turn?

perhaps i should have put a laughing face along with the answer--

[fireflybob]

aren't some things obvious?


stator vane, are you a training captain by any chance?:rolleyes:

[Willows]

Often wondered about this. I always assumed it was good airman-ship to turn into the wind?

[Suranga]

PF always on the inside of the turn. Atleast that's the way it works with us.....:hmm:

[Dani]

I guess your question is: Should you as pilot be able to judge the distance with more accuracy at the beginning or at the end of the turn. If you turn from your side to the other, then it's the beginning and vice versa.

I never heard of any restriction or any rule.

The only written procedure you receive is from Airbus on small runways. It's always from your side to the other. The thought behind is, that if you do it right in the beginning, you have a good chance to succeed.

Dani

[beamer]

From the left hand seat I always prefer to turn left before making the 180 turn to the right to line up - that way I can see where the runways edge lights and grass actually are !

[ground_star]

180's on the runway are commonplace at Aldergrove (EGAA) in the wet & windy weather like we have now - it's not unknown that you don't quite make the turnoff for RW17 when landing on 25 from the East - the EZY guys seem to always steer right then backtrack along the active, then make the left turn onto RW17.

It could be company SOP for them not sure but that's just what I experience every couple of weeks or so at this end of the year.

On another note it's quite an interesting landing when RW17 is in use given it's about half the length of 25. If you thought the view into Aldergrove on a 25 approach was nice, you should try a 17 one sometime, lovely view of Divis\Black Mountain etc...Anyway...I'm drifting...!!

[con-pilot]

In my experience it usually a turn to the left by the PF. For a couple of reasons. In most aircraft that is where the ground steering wheel or tiller is located. On lining up for takeoff it is easier for the PF. We always had the PF in the left seat.

And most importantly you could always blame the other guys if he ran it off the runway into the dirt. :p

Some airports because of local regualtions you can only turn one way because of jet blast. Sometimes it may be to the right and other times only to the left.

[stator vane]

somethings are self taught--some things are indeed obvious.

no need to micro manage every little aspect of operating an aircraft.

there's way too much of that already.

if you can't manage to stay on the runway, then a regulation won't help you.

[fireflybob]

When I was on the B 707 (nosewheel steering both sides) we were taught (indeed I think it might have been a Boeing recommendation) to always make the initial turn in the direction of the side on which you were controlling the a/c, ie if you were in the RHS you would turn right 30 degrees and then when you were physically over the runway edge apply full lock in the opposite direction (this was to do a 180 safely on a runway 150 ft wide).

Not got the books to hand but on the B737 I wonder what Boeing recommend in the FCTM?

[Stan Woolley]

Surely it depends what you're flying.
I turn a 737 both directions but when I flew the 767 I went left first to get a better look at the runway edge before starting the turn to the right, and it was much more critical on a 45m runway.(Only allowed on the -200 as I recall)

FFBob and I were typing at the same time. The 737 FCTM gives a technique for turning but does not specify a preferred direction as far as I can see.

[AtoBsafely]

The rules for ground handling will vary with company and aircraft type. In general:
It is easier to judge distance from the runway edge when you are on the outside of the turn.
It is much easier to turn into wind when there is significant crosswind.
If there is some slope it will be better to turn uphill if you have braking issues during the turn (some gear types don't like braking during tight turns).
In all types make the turn as wide as safe and at low speed to avoid ripping up the pavement. This is especially true in hot weather. Many airports only allow turns on the hardened runway ends.

[gonso]

Fireflybob, you don't want to know what the Boeing FCTM suggests these days. To get an idea, no airline I know of takes the advice. They prefer to differentiate.

Boeing suggests to taxi the a/c on the left side of the rwy, as close as you can and track parallel to the edge. Then....stop and set the parking brake!

Then, turn the tiller full right, advance power and release the brakes (honestly). Along those lines anyway.

[7FF]

The best way that I have learnt is to taxi parallel to and as close as possible to the runway edge. You can determine this when the a/c is parked. Get someone to stand outside in line with the gear where you can see them and note where their feet are in relation to the windscreens when you are in your normal seating position. Run this point on the windscreen along the edge of the runway when taxiing slowly and at the appropriate time use differential thrust and full tiller. The idea is to keep the taxiing speed slow enough so as not to scrub the nose wheel and fast enough not to stop. If there are turning nodes then I still run parallel to the non node side and turn into it. It can be quite disconcerting if the nosewheel is some way back as you will be over the grass. This technique works on a 744 so anything smaller would be a lot easier.

[Dashtrash]

Depending on how large the aircraft is. If that is the limitin factor the descision should be based around that. ie left or right tiller, tight spaces etc.
From days of old in smaller aircraft operating from airports without towers, consider turning towards the circuit for a better look see. If the weather is average, maybe turn so you can point the radar in your departure direction.
Other than that perhaps just pick your favourite.

[Roadtrip]

The 747 is very challenging to 180 on a 150' wide runway. I prefer to turn left to keep myself on the inside of the turn. However, I have known visual reference points on the windscreen frame to help judge when the right wing gear is approaching the edge of the pavement before initiating the left 180.

When first learning to taxi the airplane, I had the other pilot actually go out on the ramp one day and walk straight ahead from the wing gear so as to calibrate my eyes to some handy visual references from the inside structure of the cockpit.

[DCDriver]

When first learning to taxi the airplane, I had the other pilot actually go out on the ramp one day and walk straight ahead from the wing gear so as to calibrate my eyes to some handy visual references from the inside structure of the cockpit.
Roadtrip,
This is an excellent idea and one I was shown when I first converted to widebodies as capt. I have always employed it when line training new capts, but as far as I'm aware I am the only one doing it in my company!
FWIW, with a turning bay at the rwy end McDD always recommended turning into the bay first before doing the 180, as one lost less line-up distance that way. I'm sure everyone has their own opinion on this one!!

[fire wall]

Road trip, stated min radius turn for 747 in my books is 153 ft and I am not advised to attempt it unless 180' or more....extra tolerance as well as potential for FOD on # 2 and 3 with overhang on grass. Further DCDriver, as far as I know I am the only one who stands outside and shows eyeline to new crew on wing gear....still shake my head.