C130 Windmill Starting

[splitbrain]

During my time at Lyneham I recall that the C130 K crews had a method of starting the Allison T56 engine when the starter was U/S by either thrapping down the runway or sitting in the propwash of another Albert. This action windmilled the prop (and hence the core engine) allowing the engine to be started. I understand that this was possible largely due to the direct coupled arrangement of the core engine.
So, with its free power turbine arrangement is it possible to windmill start a J in the manner described?

[Solid Rust Twotter]

Not unless you could blow a truckload of air into the intake to spin up the compressor, one should think.

Recall listening to one of our crews helping a RAF C130 start a donk at Bunia in this manner as we were inbound.

[juliet]

The J has a buddy-buddy system whereby two aircraft, each with their own section of hose, join together. Bleed air is transferred from one to another. Because the J has a free turbine, like many modern turbo props, spinning the prop wont spin the engine. In fact if you are brave enough you could hang on to the prop during start and stop it from spinning, even though the engine is running!

[r supwoods]

"In fact if you are brave enough you could hang on to the prop during start and stop it from spinning, even though the engine is running!"

Done that with a Turbine Islander :ouch:

[ShyTorque]

In the early 1980s we watched a C130 make a number of fast runs down the Belize Airport Camp runway, three engines running, one not - while they tried to do a windmill start.

It didn't work. Strange thing was, the crew didn't notice it was U/S with prop feathered when they finally took off on three engines - until they had got almost all the way to Nassau, a far nicer place to wait for a new engine.

It's only rumour, of course. Especially as the AOC was on board. :hmm:

[Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh!]

In fact if you are brave enough you could hang on to the prop during start and stop it from spinning, even though the engine is running!I must give that a try, though the only aircraft i have available is a 182.

Still how much difference could there be?

[Ken Scott]

The windmill start on the K allowed you to start an engine after a starter motor failure, the 'buddy-buddy' start described by Juliet will only work if the starter motor's still functional. If you HAD to get airborne in a J the only option would be a 3 engine take-off then an airborne unassisted relight (go fast enough to get the NG high enough).

[Wiley]

I've done one 'in anger' windmill start successfully, and if memory serves me right, the manual said you had to give it away with 5000' of runway remaining, (which was very conservative). I know a bloke who managed to get the last engine of an 'E' model up and running after a starter failure at Nui Dat, in South Vietnam - which was only 5,000' long. I suspect the latter stages of that windmill start that would have been a tad exciting, if not for the crew, then certainly for the grunts at the end of the field.

He got a king size kick in the arse on getting home, but the chances of the Herc ending up as a smoking pile of burnt aluminium had he stayed at Nui Dat overnight were pretty high. (They didn't call the silvers Hercs 'mortar magnets' without good reason.) And he got the load of very badly wounded medevac cases out to Butterworth that day.

The buddy start, where the aircraft with the dead starter lined up behind another Herc who then ran his engines at takeoff power was in the manual, but highly discouraged because of damage the aircraft at the rear would almost certainly suffer from stones and all manner of other junk kicked up by the propwash of the aircraft in front.

[splitbrain]

OK thanks for the replies.
It seems then that a windmill start a-la 'K' isn't possible in a J for the reasons I suspected.
And thanks Juliet, I was aware that the 'buddy' start you described could be done on a Merlin, but not a Herc J. Every day is a school day :)

[Phil_R]

Can you start one engine up off another, or does it have to be a separate aircraft?

Apropos of nothing.

Phil

[splitbrain]

Conventionally yes you can start one engine using the bleed air supplied by another.
This is normal modus operandi.

[herkman]

In the RAAF, with their A,E and H models, prior to being qualified as a Captain, you had to show that you could do a windmill start.

Regards

Col Tigwell

[mr ripley]

Happened to have found a couple of vids of a buddy buddy start.Recall listening to one of our crews helping a RAF C130 start a donk at Bunia in this manner as we were inbound.
This was the one at Bunia in 2003.
Worked second time after donor raised flaps and recipient moved a little closer.
Seehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXj0sQzljUw
and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXU4fRNFS1U

[Solid Rust Twotter]

Dat am de one...:ok:

[country calls]

Buddy starts would be used if there were no air supply available (GTC or Palouste), to start any engine. It is standard practice to 'cuff' a prop, before shutting the electrics off with no GPU available for just such an eventuality. No electrics would mean you would be unable to motor the blades to the air start position in the worst case scenario.

I can see no reason why a buddy start could not be used on an engine with a broken starter motor, but am willing to be corrected. It would not be a reason to use a buddy start where the ability to windmill start the engine is available. As previously mentioned there are major issues with the amount of crud thrown up and if you watch the videos the tail of the donor aircraft takes a right pasting!

I have heard that the intake guide vanes being effectively 'closed' would further complicate a J windmill start, anyone care to elaborate?

[nigegilb]

Tried to do a windmill start at a military airfield in NZ once. It was quite sporty, tried it on NVGs and the strip was a bit short.....Err, didn't work very well if my memory serves me correct.

[mr ripley]

I also managed a buddy and a windmill, both with sheared starter motors.

When the video was taken the temp was apparantly over 30 degrees and this combined with an elevation of over 4000ft would make for interesting conditions.

[US Herk]

When the video was taken the temp was apparantly over 30 degrees and this combined with an elevation of over 4000ft would make for interesting conditions

Do them here at the Talon OCU - regularly 30C & PA 5300 at KIKR. You do use every bit of the recommended 7000' of runway to do it.

Interestinly, USAF now say buddy start preferred over windmill taxi. Methinks it has more to do with temptation of getting airborne should something go pear shaped - a la crash at Lajes many years ago, loss of Lockheed HTTB in '93/95??, & others...

and if memory serves me right, the manual said you had to give it away wth 5000' of runway remaining

Currently, at 4000 remaining, you begin braking action.


I know a bloke who managed to get the last engine of an 'E' model up and running after a starter failure at Nui Dat, in South Vietnam - which was only 5,000' long. I suspect the latter stages of that windmill start that would have been a tad exciting, if not for the crew, then certainly for the grunts at the end of the field.

Have heard this story. Way I heard it was run down RWY, quick 180, run back down other way, quick 180, run back down rwy & finally lit! Three trips down to get it spinning at sufficient speed...

I can see no reason why a buddy start could not be used on an engine with a broken starter motor, but am willing to be corrected.
You're correct - it can be done with a duff starter. The buddy start was typically used after no electrics & prop cuffed though - otherwise, windmill is more efficient.

I do them regularly in our training syllabus. We can very easily get them going w/o the operating asymmetric engine at all & in less than 5000' even at 4200' (where we do most of our trng) at 25-30C. Another technique is leave it feathered, accelerate to about 40KIAS, then push/hold condition lever to airstart - works a treat.

[Wiley]

herkman, you're almost correct when you say:In the RAAF, with their A, E and H models, prior to being qualified as a Captain, you had to show that you could do a windmill start.In my case, I was cleared to the line as a captain without having done my 'windmill start' ride with the resident QFI and suffered the dead starter at Amberley within the first week or two of being let loose on my own. It took three runs up and down the Amberley runway before the engine finally cranked up successfully.

A week later, I was scheduled for my windmill start checkout, which I did. The QFI congratulated me on how well I handled it and was a little upset when I told him I probably should be able to as it was my fourth windmill start run in a week.

And US Herc, the story you heard is pretty accurate. A clear case of "needs must", where the rules are for the guidance of wise men. At that stage of the war, 'Charles' was still very much in evidence in the province and would almost certainly have had a go at such a high value target had the Herc stayed at Luscombe overnight - and the medevac patients he was to carry out that day were all very serious cases, too badly injured to be taken down to Vung Tau, so I think he won a lot of brownie points with the grunts. Still, on a (very narrow) 5000' strip, I shudder to think how much runway he'd have had remaining when he reached 100k, which from memory, was the min. speed to attempt a windmill start.

If memory serves me correctly, (no guarantee of that after all this time!), JL, the captain involved, who was very highly regarded on the squadron, went on to a long career with Cathay Pacific.

[billynospares]

A buddy buddy start using the hose cannot be carried out on a J model with a duff starter as there is no way to spin the core engine as it is a free turbine powered prop. That is as far as i understand it anyway

[nigegilb]

I am fairly sure a very experienced US Herc exchange pilot started a GTC with a cigarette lighter/matches in a very hot country once upon a time
:suspect:.

[Ken Scott]

Country calls: as long as the FADEC was powered, which it would be pre-start, the Compressor Variable Geometry vanes would be in the correct postion to start the engine, so they wouldn't be 'closed'. The fact that you can't turn the engine core without the starter motor is the 'stopper' (except in flight with sufficient airflow). The incidence of starter motors failing on the J seems to be far less than on the older models, the normal cause of which was the driveshaft shearing. The fact that the J engine is a free turbine & the starter does not have to turn everything - engine core, gearbox & prop - means there is less strain on it at start-up.

But I've never had a starter fail (yet), K or J.

[VinRouge]

IF you have a problem with stuck nac BOVs, IE in the hot sandy place where they get gunked up, I have been led to believe a little run down the runway with 30 degrees on the props helps no end to unload the compressor and start the engine.
It aint going to do jack if your starter motor is knacked though.

[ancientaviator62]

I remember doing a windmill start at Akronelli then taxying back to the terminal to pick up the pax, most of whom seem to have seen the performance. Not a very reassuring start to their journey in 'Albert' !

[Wiley]

I remember doing a windmill start at Akronelli then taxying back to the terminal to pick up the pax, most of whom seem to have seen the performance. Not a very reassuring start to their journey in 'Albert' !Not nearly as unnerving for the pax as a frozen starter relay on an A Model. The local fix in Ozmate back then for this problem was low tech in the extreme - the Nav would be given the (very long) fuel drain stick and, armed with this, he would climb over the pax and position himself under the starter relay, which was in the 'hog's trough' that ran along the roof the whole length of the cargo compartment.

As the FE hit the start switch, he'd yell out "OK!" and the Nav would give the relay an almghty thump with the fuel drain stick - and (hopefully), the mighty Allison would crank up. I only saw this done once, (I was very new to the squadron and flying as supernumary crew), but the looks on the faces of the pax as the Nav stowed the stick and made his way back to the flight deck were something to behold.

[airborne_artist]

I remember doing a windmill start at Akronelli then taxying back to the terminal to pick up the pax, most of whom seem to have seen the performance. Not a very reassuring start to their journey in 'Albert'

Which is why airborne forces were invented. After windmill starts, staggering into the air on take-off and the appalling quality of inflight seating and catering, is it any wonder that so many of us preferred to make our own landings rather than trust the guys in the front? :ok:

[ancientaviator62]

Wiley,
for 'encouraging' the various boxes in the 'hog trough' we used to use the handle of the broom which was a 'no go' item on the C130K. It was essential for resetting the circuit breaker of of a bit of defensive kit which was inconveniently
recessed in the forward bulkhead. Our Navs never did these jobs, always the ALM.

[therenback]

Mr Ripley.
I seem to recall being your ge that day. I think the nice French ramp chief was a little put out over the amount of runway surface we damaged. Oops.

[international hog driver]

http://www.dhc4and5.org/C130_C7Bou.jpg

In 1984 a Marine C-130 lost a starter to number 3 engine. I recalled the time that he started a C-119, P&W 4360 with and F-86D and asked the skipper if would want to try a buddy start with a C-7a Caribou ( 66-254 c/n # 254 ). He said yes. This photograph documents that start and may be the only time that a Caribou has started a C-130. He required 16% RPM and with the help of a 15 knot breeze we gave him 21% RPM. The Marine C-130 then flew to Okinawa. (Jim Reed - Aviation Manager Kwajalein 1980-85)

[oldfella]

I saw a buddy start from an Orion to a Herc at Gib many years ago! With one low wing and one high wing it needed a lot of moving of the Orion to get a position that would give enough airflow onto the Herc.

[spannerless]

Many a year a ago I spent a very noisy 1/2 hr or so repositioning a German C160 infront of another because of starting problems.

It required huge amounts of power which undoubtedly did neither airframe or engine any good.

Not to mention the vibration subjected to surrounding buildings and structures not to mention my soft jelly like innards!

End result harry the hun got home!

more to the point they gave me a lift home to my parents in the midlands whilst stopping off at BHX result!:E

[Wiley]

ancientaviator62, the (we) Ozmates used the Nav because he was the only crewmember without a job during the start sequence.

I saw a film clip of a Herc to Herc buddy start on a supposedly clean apron area once (USAF or possibly USMC, I think). Even with the high wing-mounted engines, the amount of crap that was stirred up was quite unbelievable, and I understand the rear airframe suffered considerable damage. They were very much a "the yellow hordes are coming through the wire" procedure in the RAAF Herc squadrons - actively and quite strenuously discouraged.

[2port]

Mr Ripley/Therenback

Hope you retired to the 4 Turkeys for a celebratory Nile Special after all that excitement.

2P.

[Solid Rust Twotter]

Four Turkeys? Yikes!:ooh: Had some horrible hangovers after an evening there. Even worse was trying to fight your way through the clouds of flies to use the bog at the Chinese restaurant next door.:eek:

[DummyRun]

Dear all buddy starters,
I do hope that your F/E always put a paper cup over the condition lever of the cuffed prop, far more useful to get a reminder that when the starter drive didn't shear the donk didn't stagnate.

[herkman]

Well Wiley it appears as if I most know you. The source of JL's repremand is now dead, the truth can be stated.

JL was undoubtably one of the finest pilots I have ever flown with, The NCO's aircrew thought the world of him. However the CO had an downer on him, but he was just an a great pilot.

This is the same man who flew a brand new Caribou, for the last 800 miles into Hickham on one engine. Even though being told to put it in the water.

After the C130E incident, John got the message clearly, having saved two aircraft for the RAAF, left and went to Air Alaska flying the L100. I believe he ended up at Cathay.

Should have got a medal, not being told that he was going no where.

Regards

Col Tigwell

[deltahotel]

never did the buddy buddy thing. did windmill thing at bedford as part of the command course. also for real at muscat, the passengers having been offloaded and then watched the GE giving the starter motor some percussion engineering with sucessively larger hammers and finally a fire axe. windmill start as per book.

[splitbrain]

Next question then is how do you actually undertake a buddy/windmill start? My recollections of starting Albert conventionall are (following pre-start checks), drop condition lever in to 'run', press the button and monitor the guages to make sure she starts OK. The starter and ignition are all engaged/disengaged as part of the process.
How do you do it for a buddyy then?

[Solid Rust Twotter]

Condition lever forward as for air start. Usual limitations would apply with temps, NTS switch in "Valve", TD valve to "Auto" and prop governer to "Mechanical" one would think.