Civvy flying after the Mob

[Chillwinston1]

Guys,

I'm after a bit of a steer in the right direction. I'm halfway through my 2nd tour on SH with approx 8 years to 16/38 point and at the moment i have no civil licences. What are the job prospects (both fixed wing and rotary) for when i leave at 38 and where is the best place to find written confirmation of licences required and costs etc. Obviously it's still a little way off yet but if possible it would be nice to use enhance learning credits etc to help. I have chatted to a few of the boys on the Sqn but TBH there is quite a difference in information that they have given and i would really appreciate it if anyone in the know (maybe you have done similar in the past) could shed some light on the subject.

Thanks in advance.

CW1

[BEagle]

Have a look at the relevant sections in LASORS:

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/175/SECTION%20D.pdf

[WannaBeCiv]

Read this thread: http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=282569

As vigilant said, it is anyones guess what the job prospects will be like in 8 years.

In my opinion start seriously looking and doing stuff with 3 years to go. Until then enjoy what you have!

[MrBernoulli]

I would do the licensing LONG before 3 years to go. You don't know when the market will change, or when you will REALLY get pissed off with the RAF. Won't help if you get some ****ty job in an out of the way place while you're trying to do IRT or exams and you're nowhere near where you need to be ...... and can't get there etc. Don't put it off, those last few years race by and you could find yourself seriously pressed to complete and apply for jobs. You want to start applying 2 years to 18 months before you exit ........ seriously. Offers don't necessarily come by return of post and you will still have recruiting processes and hurdles to negotiate, and then more waiting. Don't procrastinate!

[Chillwinston1]

Thanks for the replies guys. I think that you all make valid points and it might just make sense to get my 'ticks in the boxes' relatively early rather than leave it too late and be at a disadvantage later on down the line.

CW1

[scientia in alto]

I am in the same boat as CW1 and think that I'll jump at my 12 yr option instead. Do you guys think that the loss in pension will be outweighed by the positioning in the airlines?

SIA

[VinRouge]

you betcha! I worked it out to be financially most rewarding to leave at the option point, believe it or not. It doesnt take long, sit with a pen and paper, work it out with gratuity and non-index linked to 55, its worth leaving at your option!

Thats before quality of life issues come into the frame!

[FayeDeck]

Winston,

My advice mate;

1. Get 2000 Hrs

2. Bridge to CPL H and get Lic in pocket.

3. Continue with MOD until you dont like it anymore.

4. Leave and go civi flying..............the grass is really green I assure you.

P.S. These steps are to be done in order, in particular make sure you do 2 before 4!:E

Good Luck

[IrishSarBoy]

Try to get a SAR tour before 2012! Read all the LASORS stuff, start ground school sooner rather than later(I too recommend Bristol GS) and when your option to leave comes up have an alternative to staying in (remeber there is a box to tick on your annual report that notes if you have your civi licences or not). As has already been stated, there's more to life than being in the mob, money is just one part of it. At the same time not everyone walks into a better paying job (ah yes I remeber the six grand paycut I took when I left, but I then few my ass off and added another 1000hrs to the log book in just two years). I'm now much better paid than I ever was in the mob, don't get sent to the Falklands/desert/other miserable places anymore. I don't get called into work at random times with no say in the matter and I actually have a life outside of work. It's not all roses but lay down the ground work to give your self the options when decision time arrives.:)

[WannaBeCiv]

Yep, my point was 3 years before you are going to leave. If that could be anytime and you want to stay flexible, obviously get it sorted ASAP. If you know you will stay until 38/16 then there is no harm in waiting - anything done in the last 2 years will cost you a lot less (resettlement). Using ELCs before then is a lot more difficult (It is very hard to convince the service that doing your ATPL is in the service interest!!!). Additionally applying to an airline with a "I will be available in 2-3 years" caveat is pretty much pointless.

One thing that is about to change is the introduction of the European Aviation Safety Authority - to supersede the JAA and CAA. How much this will affect UK FCL I have no idea but I would appreciate info from anyone who does. I understand that the current arrangements/concessions could well all change.:eek:

[Fareastdriver]

In the forseeable future there will always be a shortage of multi engined, IR rated helicopter pilots. Not because the rotary wing is expanding rapidly but because the airline requirements are. A large part of helicopter experience and qualifications are common and there a steady stream strapping on a 737 instead of a 332. The influx into the North Sea in the 70's are now starting to keel over even though they are still flying contract after retiring. Whilst the price of oil stays in the upper part of a century the demand for offshore helicopters is worldwide. Unless China has a catastrophic depression it will continue to drive up the price, closely followed by India. A CPL(H) will get you a baby job. Get it first and then find ways of getting your IR rating and upgrading it to ATPL(H). THEN with a few thousand hours under your belt you are in high demand.

[BEagle]

"(remember there is a box to tick on your annual report that notes if you have your civi licences or not)"

There is? What business is that of the MoD's?

Regarding EASA, I would hope that there is somebody in the RAF sufficiently interested to continue the liaison with the CAA in order to ensure that the current accreditation remains in situ after EASA-FCL comes in......

There is, isn't there.....:hmm:??

[cpmafia]

I am in the same boat as Chillwinston1. I am starting the GS for an ATPL(H) next year and would appreciate any info on how to get an ATPL(A) - requirements, allowances costs etc. I have checked LASORS but they only seem to cover fixed to fixed or rotary to rotary not rotary to fixed.

[A and C]

For the SH guys who want to go FW most of the answers can be found at The Benson flying club. At least three SH guys have recently started airline jobs following flying with the club.

check out the website for further details

www.rafbfc.com

[Finrider]

An issue which may affect helos with wheels/hover taxying too...how does one go about logging military taxy time to count towards employment minimums? When I leave the Service I will have around 2400hrs, with several airlines looking at 2500 min it would be useful to claim the 10mins Tucano/Hawk and 15 mins Tornado per flight that I believe it is legal to do. Is there a CAA form to fill in (seems there is a CAA form for most things!)?

Cheers

[BEagle]

See Appendix B to Section A of LASORS2007 where it is all explained.

For Tucano/Hawk/Tornado, the flight time supplement is 10 min per flight.
For Display Flying, it is only 5 min per flight.

Recording of Military Flying Times –

Taxi-time allowances

It is normal practice for pilots in civil aviation to record their flying hours on a “chock-to-chock” basis. However, UK military flight crew are required only to record “airborne” time – this practice being linked to Service engineering procedures and is unlikely to change.

The CAA has always been aware of this discrepancy, and of the fact that it led to Service pilots being slightly disadvantaged compared to their civilian colleagues
when they left the Services.

In recognition of this, the CAA worked with the MOD (Training Policy Unit) to devise a system that would give some credit for military taxi times.

The system that was decided upon was the taxi-assessment system. The Service pilot adds a taxi-time allowance (see table 1 below) to each sector flown as entered in his Service logbook - the taxi-time allowance being dependant on the type of sortie flown by the pilot. The taxi-time allowances built up throughout a career are then entered into a table (see table 2 below) to arrive at a total for their career. Prior to leaving the Services this table should be placed in the pilot’s logbook and signed by his last Squadron Commander.

Please note that this arrangement cannot be used for CAA licence issue purposes.

It should be emphasised that when canvassed, most UK airlines said they were aware of the discrepancy between the Service and CAA method of recording flying hours, and took this into account in the recruitment process. Where this is the case, any hours calculated by the individual Service pilot in excess of 75 hours should be taken into account by the individual airline.

The taxi-time allowance that the CAA is prepared to recognise for licence issue purposes is 5% of the total military “airborne” hours up to a maximum credit of 75
hours for ATPL(A) issue and 10 hours for CPL(A) issue. This corresponds to the average amount of taxi hours credited for civil pilots under the “chock to chock” system. When the Service pilot submits his application for licence issue, this taxi-time allowance (where required to meet minimum experience requirements) may be added to the recorded military airborne hours and the new total declared on the application form. Effectively it will mean that a military pilot will be required, inter alia, to acquire 1425 hours of military “airborne” flight time for ATPL(A) issue and 190.5 hours for CPL(A) issue.

Note: this allowance cannot be used to satisfy the eligibility requirements for any of the QSP licence accreditation schemes detailed elsewhere in this publication (LASORS).

[charliegolf]

Hover taxying is er.. flying. Shurely?

CG

[Hummingfrog]

For civil helicopter flying logbook flying time is calculated thus:-

From taxi for the purpose of flight to rotor shutdown.

If you taxi to pick up pax the flight time starts from when you taxi with pax onboard to rotor shutdown.

If you lift straight to the hover it is from wheels or skids airborne to rotor shutdown.

My advice is to get the license as soon as practicable but be aware at the moment a JAR ATPL is valid for 5yrs and the CAA always want a hefty wedge of loot to re-type the first page of the license on renewal.

It is also more difficult to get the license if your last tour is a ground tour.

HF