8 Wessex Helis and Spares - No reserve auction

[aseanaero]

PPRuNers would be aware of the ongoing saga of the Westland Wessex helis in New Zealand



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[NutLoose]

Have you tried approaching the Uruguayan air force , I heard they were seriously short of spares to support the Ex Hong Kong ones they bought.

[wg13_dummy]

Or the RAF. They too are really short of a good old sturdy SH. ;)

[Bravo73]

Why don't we, as Rotorheads, have a quick whip round? ;) It seems that for the price of an R44, we can start our own little air force...

I'm sure that we should be able to find enough volunteers who were trained by Aunty Betty to fly and fix them. :}


:ok:

[heli1]

Not that easy...the aircraft cannot be civil registered ,Westland will not provide support and the whole reason they are up for sale now is because the NZ CAA refused to give them even a restrticed permit for logging.

[aseanaero]

I spoke with some friends who are THE S58T people and they say that in many ways the Wessex is superior and more rugged than the 58T but because of that ruggedness weighs in at nearly 500kg heavier

Heli1 is correct , the manufacturer no longer supports the Wessex and in any 1st World country the use of ex-military helis in restricted commercial ops is becoming very difficult (even the DGAC (CAA) here in Indonesia said no)

I was approached by some African and Arab buyers but due to arms embargoes on some of those countries I couldnt do business with them (export of the helis and spares requires Dept of Trade / MoD approval)

For someone in the right regulatory environment or a well heeled enthusiast :-) this package is a bargain

[heli1]

Looking at the website I count only five Wessex..or is it Wessi ?

[aseanaero]

Still uploading ...

[Salusa]

Good luck Tony,

I know you have been working hard on this and deserve to pull it off.

G'zilla

[maxtork]

I sure hope someone is able to put these machines to good use. I had the good fortune to be a part of the rebuild of the 3 aircraft operated by the Navy of Uraguay. After many years working on the S58 I would have to agree that the Wessex is just what the doctor ordered. We all have little quirks about the machines we fly and maintain and those were exactly the quirks that were worked out of the S58 when you move to the Wessex. Just think, the old radial engine S58 had 1500 Hp if I remember right. The Wessex has two engies at 1250!

Max

[aseanaero]

We demonstrated an engine start for one potential African buyer and I warned him that there could be a small fireball , the flame that shot out was a beauty due a bit too much fuel getting in before it lit and the flame was a good 3 metres long with the accompany RR Gnome 'fffwhoooosh'

I never seen a guy lock his sphincter so fast and try and retreat at the same time , we nearly had to do a quick trip back to town to buy some new trousers ! He really nearly kacked his pants haha

[mylesdw]

Wow! 8 eight helis and 25 containers of spares would keep me amused for ages but my wife would be a bit cross if I brought them home!

Can anyone point me at the original threads about these NZ machines and their problems? The search facility does not seem to be working at the moment.

[aseanaero]

An aircraft dealer friend of mine bought himself a BAC Strikemaster for personal use without telling his wife , she took it pretty well

But you maybe stretching it if you have a bunch of Wessex parts sitting in the lounge room

[aseanaero]

"five Wessex..or is it Wessi ?"

I would like to propose the term Wessux ... tongue in cheek as they are a great old heli

"Have you tried approaching the Uruguayan air force"

Yes , via on of their suppliers

[Nigel Osborn]

Having been one of the original Wessex Mk5 pilots on the trials unit back in 1963 or so, I feel very sad of the thought of these ones being scrapped. I'm happy to say I spent 1035 hours in them & the machine never frightened me once, although I think I may have frightened the machine several times!
I had been asked to fly one in Oz but after the NZ problems, the Wessex never came to Oz.:{

[aseanaero]

Its amazing the longevity of the S58 / Wessex

I have a few S58T main rotor blades (we started with 34 and now down to 20 which are still fit for overhaul and repair) in the warehouse which will be shipped back to a customer in the USA for overhaul , a few of these blades date back to the mid to late 50's ! ! !

I think as far as helis goes these old things are built like tanks

[maxtork]

It makes you wonder sometimes. There is another thread going right now about the EMS industry in the US and how it is driven by profit. Nobody is going to run bigger better machines because they cost more. Here we have a bunch of proven aircraft capable of carrying two pilots and all the avionics you could ask for as well as extra fuel without sacrificing payload and with the low purchase price could probably be operated for the same as an star! And we are not allowed to operate these because they are not certified and therefore safe? Oh the irony!

Max

[Lost Again]

Would the UK CAA allow one to be put on a Uk permit to fly - or would this be the start of a massive paperwork exercise ?

Could be a lot of fun - although very expensive

[heli1]

Lost Again....unlikely...its been tried but the lack of manufacturer support is a problem.

[md 600 driver]

i thought the whole idea of a permit is when the aircraft do not have the manufactures support

steve

[Hummingfrog]

Brings back loads of memories as I have flown 6 of the 8 on 18 and 72 Sqns.

The ZFWs look a little light as I seem to remember (long time ago:{) we had about 2200lbs of payload with an hours fuel.

HF

[aseanaero]

Well Hummingfrog whoever buys them will probably need some help with pilot conversions and probably engineers also

My guess is they are heading to the African continent

Auction closes tomorrow

[NickLappos]

maxtork said, "It makes you wonder sometimes. There is another thread going right now about the EMS industry in the US and how it is driven by profit. Nobody is going to run bigger better machines because they cost more. Here we have a bunch of proven aircraft capable of carrying two pilots and all the avionics you could ask for as well as extra fuel without sacrificing payload and with the low purchase price could probably be operated for the same as an star! And we are not allowed to operate these because they are not certified and therefore safe? Oh the irony!"

This is why we have horse races, max! As I see it, the Wessex is a waste of fuel and aluminum, it is neither efficient nor adequately safe for today's environment. Any EMS operator that tried to run these beasts, would have to be run by Monty Python. That anyone would consider getting out of a more modern machine into that dinosaur shows how little we (collectively) have progressed in our understanding of what it is we fly and what our real dangers are.

That the entire lot of dinosaur bones is up for grabs at only 135,000 gives me some hope, though. One new Land Rover costs more, and is worth more.

[MSP Aviation]

What, Nick, you can't see one of those landing on the NJ Turnpike at four in the morning for a medevac? :suspect:

[maxtork]

Nick,

I wasn't specificlly implying that someone should trade in their Astar for one of these although it would be fun. On the other thread the discussion was about the capabilities of the aircraft and how the operators today don't want to spend the money to get it. Certainly using the newer machine should allow a better safety margin if all thing were equal and I was suggesting they weren't. If both could be properly maintained and supported which would be better, a brandy new 407 flying at high altitude and near max gross or one of your 1970s technology UH60As with load to spare and two pilots and maybe crew cheif to keep eyes out of the cockpit? Sure one is going to burn more fuel as it is bigger but if you could buy it surplus from Uncle Sam the lower purchase cost would offset the difference.

The problem here is that many mil surplus aircraft are no longer supported by the manufacturer so a Wessex EMS aircraft wouldn't be practical from the start. although Sikorsky hasn't supported the S58 for decades and yet there are still bunch flying today...very safely I might add! Don't get me wrong Nick I'm all about new but I've seen an awful lot of accidents with "new" aircraft recently they just come from "new" problems.

Fire away
Max

[NickLappos]

max,

Just pulling your tail! You are dead right, ".....it would be fun."

I have about 1000 hours in the S-58T/H34. It is a gentleman's helo, and a proper macho entry to the cockpit, all the same.

[maxtork]

You got me Nick! Hook line and sinker.

Aseanaero said "Well Hummingfrog whoever buys them will probably need some help with pilot conversions and probably engineers also"

Keep us posted as to where they go...Have wrench will travel!

Max

[[email protected]]

I think the exit from the cockpit is more amusing than the entry - funniest I have seen was a bloke on my Wessex course coming out feet first and facing outwards...he ended up very precariously with both heels wedged on the top step and his hands behind him desperately hanging on to the door frame. No problems, it's only 10 feet to the ground from there:)

Bring back Wessex SAR:)

[aseanaero]

To the experienced Wessex guys

Did the LP/HP cocks have a habit of sticking ?

When we prepared one of the helis for a ground run it wouldnt flip into HP , the Wessex rated pilot and 2 ex RAN engineers were scratching their heads and couldnt get it to work for about an hour , with nothing to lose and as I have a bit of a nack with all things old and complicated (leave my Mum out of this) I climbed into the cockpit and slowly and gently moved between LP and HP positions (maybe 20 times) and then all of a sudden there was this 'clacker board' sound (the sound when the flights are changing on the old style flight boards at the airport) the indicator showed HP and next thing it was working and we could get a start

The heli hadn't been started for 18 mths and this one had been sitting in the weather all that time (not one of the helis in this package)

To be honest I think if you had 5 airworthy Wessex you would probably only have 3 available at any one time in a civvy environment , lots of little electro - hydraulic - mechanical gremlins , electro mechanical anything is usually temperamental

Also if I was buying this package I would probably want at least another 10 zero time RR Gnomes , they were going for GBP 6,000 - 8,000 not so long ago but supplies are drying up (Everett Aero had 35 of them and now all gone) as these engines make their way to the USA to power tractors , boats and other contraptions

[[email protected]]

aseanaero - not a particular problem with the Wessex, unlike the starter relay that used to stick - the answer was stamping your feet on the cockpit floor which worked most of the time. Some crewmen used to take a fireaxe to the relay (percussive engineering), unfortunately not all of them knew which relay was the correct one and battered the main drive actuator instead!!

We still use the Gnome in the Sea King so there should be plenty around, there are a few modifications required because of the way they are mounted in the Wessex.

[aseanaero]

"We still use the Gnome in the Sea King so there should be plenty around, there are a few modifications required because of the way they are mounted in the Wessex. "

Is the blue fuel control computer interchangeable between the Wessex and Sea King ?

[John Eacott]

Is the blue fuel control computer interchangeable between the Wessex and Sea King

The original computer used to be: when the Sea King IFTU (700S) put the Sea King HAS1 into RN service, on the basis of Wessex V computer failures we had 114 spare computers lined up ready to be used for the planned hours of the trials.

Because the Sea King allowed the darn things to be trimmed "on the go", unlike the Wessex with them buried in the nose, we used...........one :p

[aseanaero]

Sold , going to a (for the moment) undisclosed buyer in Africa

http://aero-auction.asean-aerospace.com/item.php?id=47

I'm sure the rumor mill will work it out soon

Chapter 3 of the Wessex about to be written :)

[[email protected]]

asanaero - I don't think there is any difference between the Sea King computer and the Wessex one but the Sea King has the facility of engaging manual throttle which the Wessex never had. Double computer freezes were a bit of excitement in the Wessex but the SK is straightforward in double manual.

[heli1]

Buyer in Africa eh ? Not a certain individual in Ghana but an enthusiast in South Africa ???

[aseanaero]

Not Ghana and not any country with embargoes

If anyone knows of any ex military S58Ts or OV-10 Broncos for sale or surplus PM me

[aseanaero]

Apparently one fix for the blue fuel computers was to give them a quick bake in the oven to drive moisture out

Dont ask me what temp or for how long :rolleyes:

[[email protected]]

Make sure the buyers know the answer to the classic question about the fuel computer - 'which is made first, microswitch A or microswitch B?'

One disables the lightup sensor circuit and the other enables the computer safety circuit.

[aseanaero]

This sort of disussion on microswitches reminds me of that old motoring saying

"LUCAS - THE PRINCE OF DARKNESS"

I dare say Lucas Aerospace et al probably fell in the same category

I think the new owner needs to pair up a couple of 'Dads Army' Wessex engineers with some young keen engineers to make sure the wheel doesn't get re-invented concerning quirky systems problems

Anyone know of any zero time Gnome engines in the UK for sale ?

[[email protected]]

Zero time Gnomes? I doubt it - but there are plenty of knackered ones that the Junglie force have worn out in Iraq.

Had one 2 days ago which we had just flown for 4 hours - the engineers went out to do the compressor wash and found the No 3 bearing had all but seized. The mag plug was impressive.

[teeteringhead]

crab@

Wouldn't the computers have had to be different as the Wessex had static droop but the SK (not my type) I understand increases NR with pitch application.......

....... or is this just an internal "tweak"???

Must go and check the registrations to see how many of them I've flown .... spread across 3 logbooks and 2992 hours and 45 mins on type (always p:mad:ed me off I didn't quite make 3K!)

[[email protected]]

Teeteringhead - the collective pitch anticipators (CPAs) modify the droop law in the computer and electically shift it to the right so the NR increases. If you lose the CPAs it reverts to normal static droop.

I need to check but I don't think I quite made 3K on Wessi either:)

[aseanaero]

The Wessex deal to Africa fell over last week (after 6 months of hard work on all sides) due to difficulties with the local aviation authority regarding these helis being used in restricted commercial ops

The first lot available is the 3 x HC Mk2s in Hixon , Staffordshire UK

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[oldbeefer]

The Wessex - blimey, what a fantastic, forgiving and built-like-a-brick-built-****e-house machine! The hours I spent abusing that wonderful design without coming unstuck bear tribute to it's strength and resilience.

[aseanaero]

Already under contract !

Wow that was fast

Hopefully this one sticks :-)

[ShyTorque]

The Wessex - blimey, what a fantastic, forgiving and built-like-a-brick-built-****e-house machine!

We Puma chaps had many a laugh taunting the 72 boys when they were tasked with giving us mutual support in NI.

We had a certain no-notice task to carry an USL that the Wessex couldn't lift. The trick was to get them to call "Buster" (= slow down we can't keep up) when we had the underslung load underneath and they were "clean" (or as clean as Walter Wessex could get). :E

Also, the RAF stopped supporting those "Nicaraguan" aircraft to a great extent in HK just prior to them being sold. It wasn't absolutely unusual to have one only serviceable, sometimes less. Once or twice 28 Sqn even had to ask for a favour from a civilian organisation to fly a trip..... of course, that organisation said yes.

Shame the RAF never bought the "SuperWessex" (Blackhawks) - the Wessex boys would have loved them (I did).

[teeteringhead]

Have to agree with you Shy about the Blackhawk - felt like a grownup Wessex - even to the "three point" landing (tail right left) and having huge blindspots in the cockpit!

I never flew the RR engined Blackhawk, which I gather was even more awesome, as it continued the "do what you like with the collective and the Nr won't budge" theory of the Queen (Mother) of the Skies......

[oldbeefer]

Remember being in The Province soon after we took Pumas there. A certain crewman with a penchant for sketching drew a Puma front end with a Wessex tail and main U/C. Said it would make a perfect SH machine. I remember when the Blackhawk first came out, it was almost exactly like that sketch - spooky! (OK, so a bit of thread creep).

[Fareastdriver]

I was told, years ago, that when Westlands were going to build the turbine engined S58 they proposed putting the engines and gearbox together in the same way as the Westminster and the cockpit would go where the engine was. It was rejected by the Services as they considered it was too dangerous to have the engines above the cabin in case of a crash. Donno how true it was, but that was what I was told. Shades of the twin Gnome Belverdere, wide and fat with two aft engines like the wokka.

[sycamore]

TTHD,thought 3-pt. landing in Wx was `tail-left-right`,due t/r roll etc....and I know a 22 Nav trapper who managed to break a tailwheel off during a t/o or ldg.....!

Crab...the anticipator `tilts` the `droop slope` to the right,above the `knee` to give `droop cancelling`,and no `rate of change ` signal, as per Wx...unless it`s all changed! (RV1,2,3,?)

AS-AE,the h-p cocks are electrically operated and can stick between open/closed especially if you tried first start of the day without a GPU,/weak batteries,etc,so just batt, no1 computor,1 fuel pump to `prime` the line,then`off`, then start and open h-p at 5000rpm.If the PTIT rise normal,ok..if its heading for 400 fast,chop h-p/l-p,right off(fully off),otherwise,it`ll be expensive !!!
Are the `blue` computors Mk 1a s/2/3 ? as mk1a had problems with the initial response/transient droop if you pulled one back/engine failure.Comments ?Syc

[aseanaero]

Hi Sycamore

Spot on , the GPU wouldn't start and the battery cart was marginal

I don't know the answer to your question on the computers , I should be in the UK soon so I'll find out

[EESDL]

Shouldn't mention 'anticipators' with Puma pilots about - they'd just get jealous...........

[Cyclic Hotline]

Maybe they should do the same as the Thais?

Sink them in the ocean.

[fergineer]

There may be some news on these in the near future

[zetec2]

Quote Syc:
TTHD,thought 3-pt. landing in Wx was `tail-left-right`,due t/r roll etc....and I know a 22 Nav trapper who managed to break a tailwheel off during a t/o or ldg.....!

XR520 I remember, fresh from winning Concours at the 83 Helimeet at MW.

[SASless]

Would the UK CAA allow one to be put on a Uk permit to fly - or would this be the start of a massive paperwork exercise ?

Could be a lot of fun - although very expensive

CAA.....paper work exercise??????????????

Please pull the other one will you!

[heli1]

Been here before haven't we ....