Housing allowance SIA Cargo [Archive]

Thermal Image

16th Sep 2007, 03:46

It is difficult but so what?

If you want housing agents falling over themselves to offer you accomodation for your large family, then be prepared to pay for the convenience of not hunting down a place that matches your expectations and budget.

$3200 will still get you a decent house (maybe EVEN a condo) within 10km of the airport. You just have to make the effort to look for it. If you expect nice properties to be presented to you by prancing girls on bended knee at prices within your allowance, dream on.

Many MANY pilots working for other airlines based in SIN are happy to live in HDB accomodation and save the difference between allowance and actual expenditure. Is it so disagreeable to live in HDB?

Or is it a case of the sheep not wanting to mix with the goats?

gb777

16th Sep 2007, 04:58

Personnally, I don't know any expat pilot with a family of 4 (or 5)
living in a HDB flat. (Do you?) Would be interesting to learn if they feel happy.
It DOES look like that it will be the only choice left, condo rentals
are simply doubling overnight (make it 6 months)
By the way, those SGD 3200 are taxable,so it is closer to 2700.

Thermal Image

16th Sep 2007, 05:25

Personnally, I don't know any expat pilot with a family of 4 (or 5)
living in a HDB flat. (Do you?)

I do. Several at that.

Would be interesting to learn if they feel happy.
I asked them. They are. They even show me photographs of their families happily at home in Singapore. Some are even applying for permanent residency. Or do they do this to suck up to me?

It DOES look like that it will be the only choice left, condo rentals
are simply doubling overnight (make it 6 months)
Well it looks like the sheep must mix with the goats then.

[QUOTE]By the way, those SGD 3200 are taxable,so it is closer to 2700./QUOTE]
Even at $2700 there is enough.

What part of "living within your means" is so difficult for certain expats to understand?

segajet

16th Sep 2007, 09:58

I think the point is that despite what thermal image has to say about the subject, there has been a huge rise in monthly rental costs in the last 18 months in Singapore. An apartment that cost S$3000 last year now costs S$5500. The rental allowance has not kept pace with the rises.
Why would anybody travel thousands of miles and relocate their families to move into an HDB, which is essentially a very clean, well maintained council flat.
You can argue the rights and wrongs about hiring expats. I feel sure that if situations were reversed there would be major industrial unrest, but the bottom line is that you get what you pay for in terms of quality. The best people will inevitably go for the best package. Its simple supply and demand.
I appreciate that some locals object to housing allowance being paid to expats but the bottom line is that expats are applying to a job offer, not setting the policy. If you don't like the policy object to the company not the individual pilots, who are only trying to make a living.

expat400

16th Sep 2007, 10:14

Relax TI,

and please don't give me the racist BS about "Or is it a case of the sheep not wanting to mix with the goats?".

I can live side by side with anyone (except maybe George Bush) and in my condo there's people from all the world. Actually, most of them are Singaporean.

I pay a little more than 6000 and that's well within my means. However, the housing in SIA has increased by less than 10 % since 2004. At the same time the rents have doubled so the discrepancy between SIA and CX is remarkable.

It's wonderful for the Singaporean economy that the wheels are spinning so fast and for most locals who own their place it's a blessing but for an expat who can't plan ahead longer than the contract remains the constant increases in rent create problems.

In many cases the increase has meant that families have had to move. It's not a question about "lowering standards" as some unfortunately expresses it. The biggest problem is that you might have settled close to a school and moving means a long commute or changing school (and friends) for the kids.

CargoBoy

16th Sep 2007, 15:46

Expat 400,

Most expat children attend school in the central part of Singapore. The distance between the furthest populated area and the central part of Singapore would not be further than 20km.

What "long commute" are you talking about?

BANANASBANANAS

16th Sep 2007, 16:19

TI, We all live within our means. That is not the issue. What is the issue is that SIA Cargo have reduced those means by not increasing housing allowance in line with the market rate.

I realise that it is, perhaps, a difficult concept for a non expat to get their head around but it is actually very simple. Expats gets paid a salary plus either housing allowance direct to salary or they have housing provided for them by the company. Either way, the salary element of pay should not be required for housing. Its the same the expat world over.

When I joined SIA Cargo, that was the case. Now it is not and many expats are actively looking elsewhere. Short term, that may have you clapping your hands but please bear in mind that expats are in Singapore because they are needed. You want to keep them, you listen to market forces.:ok:

Thermal Image

16th Sep 2007, 18:49

I pay a little more than 6000 and that's well within my means. However, the housing in SIA has increased by less than 10 % since 2004. At the same time the rents have doubled so the discrepancy between SIA and CX is remarkable.

$6000? Looks like you do desperately want to live in a condo. Or you've been ripped off. There are lots of nice houses (private ones) around at less than half that.

Let me make it simple for you regarding your options, be it private houses or HDB flats. Some background facts first.

Between 80-90% (depending on which source of information you refer to) of Singaporeans live in HDB flats, and they also own those units. There's no shame in that.
References:
http://www.economywatch.com/mortgage/singapore.html
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0254/is_n4_v55/ai_18910973/pg_5
http://www.singstat.gov.sg/pubn/papers/people/op-s9.pdf

So, at most, 20% of Singaporeans live in private housing (comprising condo units and private houses, probably much less now because the above statistics are not so recent and HDB housing growth is faster than private housing growth), with most of that 20% owning the units they live in. Which explains why you have many local neighbours in your condo, being likely to own the units they live in, as opposed to renting said units.

In other words, more likely than not, Singaporeans, whether they live in public or private housing, are owner-occupiers.

So then, who are the renters? Since they are not likely to be Singaporeans, surprise surprise, they are the expats.

Now, since owner occupied housing (public or private) outnumber rental housing (public or private) by 4 : 1, there is a limited supply of rental units available.

And since expats are most likely renters not owners, who then are the ones driving up the prices?

Your dear fellow expats.

Not Singaporeans trying to displace you from your condos.

And if you are still not able to bring yourself to move into an HDB unit, then by all means up and leave for CX and their generous housing allowance for tiny tiny units and then choke to death in Hong Kong.

and please don't give me the racist BS about "Or is it a case of the sheep not wanting to mix with the goats?".

My reference to sheep not wanting to mix with goats is not in any way racist. It is about expats who cannot bring themselves to live in HDB housing. Nothing to do with race. Your same Singaporean neighbours are most likely "upgraders" who have previously lived in HDB units. They are said examples of sheep which do not want to mix with goats. Somehow superior to normal folks living in HDB estates. Again, nothing to do with race.

Perhaps the remark stung because you are in fact racist and felt that somehow it referred to the racist in you.

It's wonderful for the Singaporean economy that the wheels are spinning so fast and for most locals who own their place it's a blessing but for an expat who can't plan ahead longer than the contract remains the constant increases in rent create problems.

"Constant increases in rent"? How long do you sign a lease for? 2 years? or 2 weeks? How frequently do these "constant increases" take place?

In many cases the increase has meant that families have had to move. It's not a question about "lowering standards" as some unfortunately expresses it. The biggest problem is that you might have settled close to a school and moving means a long commute or changing school (and friends) for the kids.

The costs go up. Because of other expats trying to displace you. Not Sincargo. If you want to pay the price for not moving that's your choice. Did Sincargo do this to you? You do have real, and practical alternatives. But if you choose to pay your $6000 in the face of alternatives that are half of that, then you make your own bed and sleep in it.

Thermal Image

16th Sep 2007, 19:00

Why would anybody travel thousands of miles and relocate their families to move into an HDB, which is essentially a very clean, well maintained council flat.

HDB flats are not council flats of the sort that you refer to in UK. There is NO social stigma associated with living in an HDB unit.

Refer to the statistics I have provided.

If you are correct then between 80-90% of the population ought to be treated with a certain contempt because they live in HDB units.

YOU are the one equating HDB units with council houses / dirty peasants. Exactly the sort of sheep I refer to which does not want to mix with the goats.

BANANASBANANAS

16th Sep 2007, 23:33

TI, What you say may, or may not be accurate. It doesn't matter because it is not relevant to expats or their contracts.

The point that has been well made on this and many other threads is that Housing Allowance used to be sufficient to rent accommodation. Now it is not. Some people have tried to muddy the waters by bringing in arguments which may be true statements of fact but which are also totally irrelevant to the topic under discussion.

I do understand that Housing Allowance can be an emotive topic - especially if you are not receiving it, but the bottom line is that an expat anywhere in the world should not have to contribute anything from salary to rent accommodation. May I suggest you do some research on what expat middle managers in the Finance and IT sector etc are being paid in Housing Allowance in Singapore. It starts at $5k pcm and some get paid significantly more. We wont even mention annual holiday entitlement, guaranteed airline tickets etc.

Please try not to look on this from an isolated Singapore point of view - it's a global practice in a global market place and it's here to stay.:ok:

Metro man

16th Sep 2007, 23:38

Older HDBs are a bit basic, the principle behind them being mass housing as quickly as possible. Progressively they are being upgraded with priority given to areas that voted for the Peoples Action Party (Singapore Government);)

Newer HDBs, and a class called HDB Executive are very acceptable. HDB Executive is indistinguishable from private condos and typically includes pool, tennis court, gym, BBQ area, and even sauna and jacuzzi. HDB estates are well planned with easy access to shop, schools, doctors and transport. You can manage easily without a car.

True rents have gone up a huge amount recently. Most people I talk to coming to the end of a two year lease are looking at an 80-100% increase. Some of the most desirable areas in town have gone up 300%.

Most pilots cannot afford the top end of town in their home countries and shouldn't expect to in Singapore. How many London pilots live in Mayfair/Knightsbridge/Kensington ?

S$3500 will get a perfectly acceptable place but not in a prime area. Yes you will be living more with locals then expats but if that isn't a problem you can save a lot of money. Shop prices in the expat areas are geared towards foreigners.

Public transport is excellent, safe and cheap. Many schools have their own bus and pick the kids up from home.

It is a very westernised country with almost everyone speaking English. Quite easy to adapt to, the more "local" you go the cheaper it gets.

I would take a HDB over a council estate anyday.:ok:

anito4a

16th Sep 2007, 23:44

Some are even applying for permanent residency. Or do they do this to suck up to me?

Please don't take this the wrong way, Thermal Image, but are you someone of importance that we should all be seeking to suck up to? (Serious question, so hope you will answer unambiguously.)

BANANASBANANAS

17th Sep 2007, 00:04

MM, most expats I know didn't rent in the equivalent of Mayfair etc. What they did do was rent within the housing allowance 2 or 3 years ago. Now they find that at tenancy renewal they are looking at $2-3000 pcm increase in rental whilst the company have only given a $200 pcm increase in the allowance.

Options?

1. Pay the balance from salary. Unacceptable.

2. Move to a cheaper area, uproot family, move kids to new schools etc.
Also unacceptable.

3. Leave. For many, a preferable choice - especially as there are so many
well paid positions available.

Sadly, I think SIA Cargo will not react until a lot of people have left. How nice it would be if they could actually do the right thing without HR having to get the calculators out for once.:ok:

Metro man

17th Sep 2007, 01:14

Jetstar captains got a S$1000/month pay rise to help off set rent increases, and I see that wages in general rose 8.5% last year.

Since the property market crash 11 years ago rents have been unrealistically low and landlords are now trying to make up for past losses. If you bought at the peak, only now is your property coming back to being worth what you paid for it.

Fair point about people who previously rented within the housing allowance and are no being forced to move or pay up, I was thinking more about new arrivals.

I know of a few people looking at other jobs at the moment, once resignations start coming in management might wake up. It would be nice if they kept pace with market rates of pay and looked after their staff without waiting for this.:hmm:

Thermal Image

17th Sep 2007, 01:40

The point that has been well made on this and many other threads is that Housing Allowance used to be sufficient to rent accommodation. Now it is not.

The HA IS still sufficient, and that IS a fact.

If you moaners say it is not enough, that is because YOU are looking at your choices and the prices that are demanded of it. That is a fact.

It is NOT as though the HA will only get you a broom closet in a slum 200 miles from Changi.

Thermal Image

17th Sep 2007, 01:44

anito4a

17th Sep 2007, 02:53

Obviously you can't even recognise sarcasm.
Or maybe my expat friends are under some hallucination that I can wave my hand and then their contracts won't get extended and/or their base checks will mysteriously become difficult.

That's not sarcasm, that's arrogance. Almost all your posts on here is nothing short of spiteful arrogance. So, I'm wondering, do you have a reason to be so? And again, it's an honest question. I doubt very much that you're actually a commercial pilot. A wannabe that never made it perhaps, thus venting out your frustrations at those SIA cadet hopefuls on a separate thread? :rolleyes:

CargoBoy

17th Sep 2007, 04:16

At the end of the day, it all boils down to market forces. Nobody owes anyone anything.

If SIA/SIA Cargo can keep its expat community with current HA, it will. If it cannot, it will increase it. Simple as that.

Correct me if I am wrong but I think Silkair/Tiger Air captains do not get any housing allowances. Why? Because the company can get away with it.

The grass always seem greener on the otherside. Who is giving a better deal? Why hasn't there been a mass exodus? We have pilots from Emirates and Korean who have left and join SIA Cargo.

Everyone would like more but one must understand the basics of economics, demand and supply.

The more you get worked up, the worse of your life is. No point banging your head against the brick wall of basic economics.

CargoBoy

BANANASBANANAS

17th Sep 2007, 04:38

Fair point actually Cargo Boy. The old argument about you are only worth what you can negotiate works both ways. Its also true that you only get what you pay for and, at the moment, SIA Cargo are paying for less so they get less from me.

There are also a lot of very talented individuals who are being less than forthcoming when it comes to applying for training and management, preferring to spend as much time away from the office as possible.

Pay peanuts get monkeys - now, where did I leave my banana?:ok:

millerscourt

17th Sep 2007, 05:20

I would hardly call East Coast places like Bayshore and Mandarin Gardens the equivalent of Mayfair. What Thermal Image does not understand and more likely does not want to is that there is no point in being an Expat unless one is better off than staying in ones home country.There has to be an incentive to stay or to join in the first place which is no longer there in my opinion.

Expats are only under short term contracts that may or may not be renewed and have no employments rights.

It has come to a pretty poor state of things if Pilots in SIA can only afford to live in HDB's. Clearly Thermal Image is one of those who hates Pilots like LKY. I am glad that I am now out of all this having retired recently. I certainly would not have considered joining SQ under the present T & C's, what with the Exchange Rate and Housing costs.

Thermal Image

17th Sep 2007, 06:49

That's not sarcasm, that's arrogance. Almost all your posts on here is nothing short of spiteful arrogance. So, I'm wondering, do you have a reason to be so? And again, it's an honest question. I doubt very much that you're actually a commercial pilot. A wannabe that never made it perhaps, thus venting out your frustrations at those SIA cadet hopefuls on a separate thread?

Ah, so you think you recognise what you see, and can also use the search function. Reduced to name calling now, are we? Well, don't be surprised if Johnnie Leong shows up to do your base check.

In the meantime, do yourself a favour and demonstrate that you are made of sterner stuff. Agitating for more pay, or else what? Leave? Just go then. What is stopping you? A bond? Oh dear, that convenient excuse again.

The truth is that you whiners et al can't even show courage and manage a rent increase by reducing expectations, referring to HDB as council flats, so it is clear you don't have the balls to resign if you can't even handle moving to cheaper housing. All show and no go. Bottom line - no HA increase for you lot.

Thermal Image

17th Sep 2007, 07:07

TI, What you say may, or may not be accurate. It doesn't matter because it is not relevant to expats or their contracts.

Not relevant because you say so?

The point that has been well made on this and many other threads is that Housing Allowance used to be sufficient to rent accommodation. Now it is not. Some people have tried to muddy the waters by bringing in arguments which may be true statements of fact but which are also totally irrelevant to the topic under discussion.

Your statement: "Now it is not" is clearly false. The plain meaning of that statement is that is it IMPOSSIBLE to rent something at the present HA. Really? Or is it a fact that you can't find something you LIKE under the present HA?

I do understand that Housing Allowance can be an emotive topic - especially if you are not receiving it, but the bottom line is that an expat anywhere in the world should not have to contribute anything from salary to rent accommodation. May I suggest you do some research on what expat middle managers in the Finance and IT sector etc are being paid in Housing Allowance in Singapore. It starts at $5k pcm and some get paid significantly more. We wont even mention annual holiday entitlement, guaranteed airline tickets etc.

YOU are the one being defensive with your perception that locals somehow aren't happy that you get a HA. And please, don't insult "expat middle managers in the Finance and IT sector" by thinking that you are in the same group as they are, and trying to compare what they get for HA. But I suppose the issue of "relevance" is something that only you are allowed to decide on. If you want real relevance, compare like for like, ie what are expat pilots as a whole, in all the airlines based in SINGAPORE, getting for HA? Is that not more relevant than using "expat middle managers in the Finance and IT sector" as a benchmark? Is not your HA close to what SIA mainline chaps are getting?

Please try not to look on this from an isolated Singapore point of view - it's a global practice in a global market place and it's here to stay.

You too - practice what you preach - just leave if you are so unhappy. After all, since you think you can get a job in the global arena with your qualifications, prove it. Do your colleagues a favour and show Sincargo management that their T&Cs suck big time. Until then you bunch of whiners are all show and no go.

segajet

17th Sep 2007, 09:36

HDB's are government subsidised housing stock, just like council housing. The 90% of Singaporeans who live in HDB's buy them rather than rent. For SIA local pilots it is the first step on the ladder towards a house or condo. The question I would ask thermal image is :- how many middle aged local captains live in HDB's? Most of the local captains I flew with lived in luxury housing and had used the HDB as a stepping stone to better accomodation.
TI obviously hates the idea of any kind of housing allowance, which is fair enough, but if the company choose to pay the HA it should keep place with inflation.
I repeat the point that you will get applications from expats, however bad the package, but don't expect to get prime canditates.
TI obviousy sees an expat racist around every corner but in my experience all nationalities are capable of racism and if you add a touch of post colonial inferiority complex, its a heady brew. Just ask any of the black African pilots who joined SIA.

ArkPilot

17th Sep 2007, 15:14

TI,

A few questions;

Name of the airline you fly for?

Are you on a secondment?

Equipment and position?

You may PM me with the resposne if you choose, I will hold the responses confidential at your request.

I am currently living in one of the much discussed east coast "luxury condos". My lease is expiring within the year and I will be moving for reasons other than rent. When I chose the condo it was because it was within my "means" of the housing allowance. Now it is not. I have a choice, live within the housing allowance, or not. In either case I will still be living within my "means".

FYI, it is my understanding that while the meager increase in housing allowance "negotiated" between ALPA-S and management is substandard:yuk:, there was a scheme established for future housing allowance increases. Furthermore, had the scheme been applied this year the result would have been a housing allowance in excess of S$4000.

In any case, I am one expat who is not going anywhere! I like it in Singapore.;)

BANANASBANANAS

17th Sep 2007, 16:54

Well said Ark.

TI obviously has a few issues to deal with which no contributor to this forum is likely to be qualified to help him with - after all, we chose a career in aviation.

Thankfully, the feedback I am getting on the line regarding HA is very positive from locals and expats alike so I think we will discount TI as the exception that proves the rule.

Aside from HA we too are quite happy in Singapore. We will continue to enjoy ourselves here whilst highlighting the recent HA increase for what it is - shameful!:ok:

4PW's

17th Sep 2007, 20:33

I like what Bananas has just said.

You are one very disturbed individual, Thermal Image, and are beyond the assistance of contributors to this thread, most of whom are genuine pilots, not psychiatrists.

Good luck in dealing with this complex issue, which clearly plagues you.

expat400

18th Sep 2007, 00:50

TI, you really need to chill a bit. The aggressiveness you show is not appropriate. I guess the whole expat question is bothering you. In a way I can understand it, but don’t take it out here. Use your union, political representative and The Straits Times if you want to change that.

To some of your earlier comments:

“$6000? Looks like you do desperately want to live in a condo. Or you've been ripped off. There are lots of nice houses (private ones) around at less than half that.”

I don’t want to live in a house. Never have, probably never will. I enjoy living in a condo. A lot more friends and fun for the kids, a gym for my wife and a lot less maintenance for me.
Neither do I want to live within 10 km from the airport. I go to work three-four times a month and taxis are extremely cheap so with regards to my job I can live anywhere. My family and I love the city, we’ve always lived in the city centre and that is something we choose to pay for now as well.
Ripped off? Not at all. My neighbours are today paying almost twice and it’s also less than what I charge the tenants in the unit I own.

“Not Singaporeans trying to displace you from your condos.”

Did I say that? No, I do understand market forces. I’m a landlord myself in other countries. As I said earlier, I think it’s good for Singapore and the local homeowners that the rents and prices are going up. They deserve it after a long slump.

“And if you are still not able to bring yourself to move into an HDB unit, then by all means up and leave for CX and their generous housing allowance for tiny tiny units and then choke to death in Hong Kong.”

Now you’re getting away from the subject. If a company signs an agreement that they should “increase HA according to market” then the reply when someone asks for it shouldn’t be “move somewhere else”. Are you in Cargo HR?

“Perhaps the remark stung because you are in fact racist and felt that somehow it referred to the racist in you.”

If the people that know me would hear that I was called a racist they would laugh their heads off. Please TI, take that foot out of your mouth. You know nothing about my family or me.

“How frequently do these "constant increases" take place?”

Just about every week. I referred to “rents”, not “my rent”.

“The costs go up. Because of other expats trying to displace you. Not Sincargo.”

I never blamed SIA Cargo for the rent increases, did I? I stated a fact that rents have increased, and that SIA Cargo signed an agreement with me when I joined that they would increase HA according to market. They haven’t done that. Do you support their decision? In my view you stand by your agreements whether you like them or not.

Cargoboy.

If the “boy” in your signature means that you are young without kids I understand your question, so let me explain.
My kids have 10 minutes to school now. If I were to find a similar place to what I have today for 2700 going to school by school bus would take them at least 45 minutes. For a kid that is a “long commute”. So it’s either that or changing schools. None of which is preferable.

You also say it’s about supply and demand. So you mean an agreement is not worth anything? You would happily accept a 20 % paycut from the company because they say ”no one is leaving so why would we honour your contract”?

CargoBoy

18th Sep 2007, 04:56

Expat 400,

If it is contracted that SIA Cargo must increase your HA according to market rates and if you feel that they have breached your contract, why not take legal action ( I am assuming you have not) ?

Al Fakhem

18th Sep 2007, 07:34

Quote:
and please don't give me the racist BS about "Or is it a case of the sheep not wanting to mix with the goats?".

I love it! No racial politics in Singapore?

It's precisely the Singapore government that dictates the racial mix in HDB estates.:ok:

Thermal Image

18th Sep 2007, 09:40

Mr Banana and your bitter bunch of sore losers, thank you all for your amateurish diagnoses of my mental state. Keep your day job, that is if you don't get sacked soon.

Nothing has changed, when facts are thrown in your face that your HA is enough to rent something civilised, you react by calling me names.

I note that my challenge to compare your HA with other HAs from airlines in Singapore, and not HAs for Finance or IT professionals / other industries, has been conveniently ignored.

It remains a fact that you can get something decent for $3000 ANYWHERE in Singapore (not just within 10km of the airport). However you CHOOSE to pay $6000 instead. What is really funny is how you take a certain righteous pride in declaring that, when all it does is tell us what an idiot you are to pay that kind of rent. And then to cover up your stupidity you make false claims like "...Housing Allowance used to be sufficient to rent accommodation. Now it is not...".

Looks like it's really, truly, ONLY about how certain expats somehow just cannot lose face by choosing cheaper accommodation. It's really as simple as that.

I wonder why other Captains and FOs, white or otherwise, from Yugoslavia / Spain / South America / Philippines etc all have no problems living in HDBs. To them, it's not about race. It's not about pride either. They have no problems living in HDBs. If you can bring yourself to sit in a Simei coffeeshop (underneath the Simei MRT) you will see lots of pilots in their white-and-blues going and coming from work.

Call me names, go ahead. It brings me indescribable pleasure to know that you guys made a stupid choice and now have to suffer a yearly loss of at least $30,000 in the name of pride. You losers please continue to stew away in the consequences of being screwed over by your landlord because you were too insecure to live cheaply. Now all you can do after being too lazy to search for cheaper lodging is whine and moan.

It's pathetic that you now try to conceal your stupidity by claiming that the HA is not enough. Exactly where in your contract were you promised life in a condo and use of the company Learjets?

Tata for now, mustn't keep my psychiatrist waiting…

And hey, next time you meet any local, check from the corner of your eye if he's sniggering to himself. He just might be thinking of some idiot who got ripped off by his landlord.

expat400

18th Sep 2007, 10:31

Cargoboy

Legal action from a foreigner against a government owned airline in a city like Singapore with a PM who hates pilots? I might be dumb but I'm not stupid...

You didn't answer my question: do you think it's OK not to honour a contract on the grounds that not enough people are leaving?

Thermal blowout

I rest my case and let you have the last word. I think you sum it up nicely.

parabellum

18th Sep 2007, 10:54

Thermal Imagination - So if the cost of meals downroute increases by, say, 50%, you won't mind if the company don't increase your allowance, you'll just find somewhere cheaper to eat and accept the lower quality food?

Thought not.

CargoBoy

18th Sep 2007, 12:01

Expat400,

If it is in the contract, it ought to be honoured.

Can you answer me something. If you all along felt that the political and legal climate is against pilots, why sign any legal binding contract in the first place?

From your opinion, you believe that nothing on your contract that is in your favour will stand up in a Singapore court of law.

From my understanding, your contract would have probably stated some vague terms of HA based on market rates.

What market? What indices are they pegged to? When would the rate be reviewed?

These are the questions you should have been asking BEFORE you sign. Did you get any legal representative to go through the contract before you committed 5 years of your career?

If you have a case, please bring it up in court. Win it and set a legal precedent. If you don't have a case then just blame it on your oversight.

HA allowance aside, I believe SIA CARGO has been treating the expats very well. When there was a pay increase 2 years ago and a per diem increase just over a year ago, the company could have stuck to the contract and pay the existing expats their old contracted salary. But instead they increased the expats salary too.

The company could have also legally (within the rules of the contract) not pay any bonus. I know it states that you are eligible for bonus, however, eligible is different from entitled.

CargoBoy

Thermal Image

18th Sep 2007, 13:01

Thermal Imagine - So if the cost of meals downroute increases by, say, 50%, you won't mind if the company don't increase your allowance, you'll just find somewhere cheaper to eat and accept the lower quality food?

Thought not.

I'll indulge you, but you must come with me to the shrink also. In short, the answer is a resounding yes. But in won't be "lower quality food" as you have imagined.

You obviously have no clue about how locals spend their meal allowances. Almost none of us makes it a point to exhaust our meal allowance every single flight. We may do it once in a while. But for most of us, we eat cheaply, but not poorly. At the end of every trip, we have at least half leftover.

But back to your absurd scenario. There won't be a situation where the company just will not increase the allowance. The allowance calculations are based on a transparent and robust process which is reviewed regularly. So there won't be a situation where as you have imagined, where prices go up 50% AND the company just does nothing.

Maybe you expats prefer to spend all your allowance in the hotel every single time. That is your wish.

Thermal Image

18th Sep 2007, 13:05

Expat400, enough of your nonsense about not being able to take SIA to court and beat them.

Call a competent lawyer.

Pay him.

Ask him to dig up the case where an expat captain who was sacked won his case against SIA for unfairly withholding his salary etc. In a Singapore court.

Don't make convenient excuses for your cowardice by suggesting that if you take SIA to court that the courts will be compliant to SIA and all other such scare mongering the-government-will-get-you nonsense.

Have the balls to do it, if you really have a case.

But if you don't, just shut up.

parabellum

18th Sep 2007, 13:12

ArkPilot

18th Sep 2007, 13:23

Cargo Boy,

If I am "eligible" for something (bonus), I meet all the requirements. I am entitled to it (bonus) because I am eligible for it.

Since you raise the point can you tell me an instance where an individual was eligible for something yet did not receive it wheras everyone else who was eligible did receive the contractural benefit?

Before you start on upgrading, recommendation is part of the eligibility process in a meritocracy.

Thermal Image,

I asked three questions and have yet to receive answers or an acknowledgement. I have not called you any names yet you lump me in with those who have. I assume you do not wish to engage in a constructive dialogue therefore absent any reponse I shall not engage you again.
Good luck in your career choice!

millerscourt

18th Sep 2007, 13:47

I think you will find that the HA as mentioned in the contract was to cover SQ so that they could reduce it if market forces allowed Pilots to get above their station as decided by LKY( he of Somerset Road apartment fame that he acquired on the cheap some years back!!!!) and start living in luxury apartments within the 80% allowance that SQ picked up in those days.

I remember before I became London based it being mooted as rents starting diving down that it was a possibilty the allowance being reduced but it was at the same time as the 2 year++ contracted drawn out CA negotiations along with the night of the " Generals" arriving on the scene so it came to nought.

Thermal Image

18th Sep 2007, 13:49

Probably have more of a clue than you think TI, ten years on mainline gave me plenty of occasions where I could observe locals eating habits, and in case you have forgotten, (you are in SIA aren't you?), crew get paid their allowances in their salary, several weeks after the trip, not cash at the hotel.

Did I infer ANYWHERE that we get paid cash at the hotel? Are you incapable of roughly calculating what your allowance will be if you have a poor memory about how much you got during the same pattern the last time you did it, or do you wait until the money is credited into your account together with the next month's salary and then realise that you have spent too much?

That must be one of the differences between locals and expats - a mysterious clairvoyant ability to predict how much we will get, budget how much to spend, and therefore know what is leftover. Too tough for you guys to figure out, right? So you infer that I'm not in SIA because I imply that the allowance comes from the hotel. You need to improve your comprenhension skills. Or maybe arithmetically-challenged expats like you only know how much you have, when you hold cold hard cash in your hands.

So why can't the HA be based on a 'transparent and robust process which is reviewed regularly?' and the company have the chance to do something, would it be because it only applies to expats?

Why should I care about how to reduce YOUR suffering? It's none of my business to ensure that there is a review process on the HA, whereas the meal allowance is. What have you lot been doing about THAT process? Is it not yours to police? Or do you think that talking rubbish on PPRuNe / making absurd claims is part of this review process?

After 10 years you still still don't have any idea how to get things done in Singapore / SIA. Here's a clue: bashing your company does not work.

millerscourt

18th Sep 2007, 14:02

Thermal Image
I never had a clue what our allowances were or how SQ worked them out as I could not be bothered with such mundane matters. The local F/O's knew to the nearest cent what they were if I could ever have been bothered to ask them. I like to think that I had my mind on a higher "plane":{
I had to be be reminded to taxi slowly on arrival back at base so that the cabin crew could get a free ride home after a certain time of night.. As we had a taxi allowance free transport was not worth having ( unless you lived on the west side) as it usually meant waiting for at least one other person who was usually the last to come out of the crewroom!! :D

Talking of local F/O's I well remember one day when we had son of LKY on board, long before he became PM with his two boys I think they were. They visited the flight deck and the F/O gave them both a piece of chewing gum to take back to their seats!!! I had a good chuckle about that.

BANANASBANANAS

18th Sep 2007, 14:34

Thanks for divulging the following TI. I am sure HR will be pleased to learn where cost savings can be made.

You obviously have no clue about how locals spend their meal allowances. Almost none of us makes it a point to exhaust our meal allowance every single flight. We may do it once in a while. But for most of us, we eat cheaply, but not poorly. At the end of every trip, we have at least half leftover

Perhaps we should let HR know that they can save money by only paying you the meals allowance you need - maybe a 50% reduction according to your own figures. The savings could then be passed on in HA to expats at nil overall cost to the company. Brilliant - I will forward your statement immediately.

How do you feel about the few expats that have bought condo unit(s) in Singapore and are making a fortune out of the property market TI? That OK with you?:ok::ok::ok:

Lights blue touchpaper;

Stands back;

Waits for "post colonial inferiority complex" to do the rest.:ok:

expat400

18th Sep 2007, 15:02

Cargoboy

"From my understanding, your contract would have probably stated some vague terms of HA based on market rates."

You're absolutely right, it's vague as hell. Consequently, I would never take it to court since I believe that the only chance to win such case against a government run airline would be that you had a clear cut case. "Intentions" and "general understandings" would hardly be looked upon in your favor in this case. It's not confined to Singapore, any country with strong control over the courts, press and the population would have the same problem.

No, I don't think there's any bias against pilots in general. But I have been told about "troublemakers" before and how fast they have been expelled. If I remember correctly even a union representative was fired and declared persona non grata a couple of years ago?

So, why did I sign up? Well, simply because I love Singapore. It's the only place in Asia I would live. Every airline has pros and cons and the pros in SIAC are still far more than the cons so I stay. But, that won't keep me from voicing an opinion when I think something is wrong.

millerscourt

18th Sep 2007, 15:18

expat400

Yes indeed it was Capt R G a Malaysian who had PR status and was the Alpha-S Chairman I think at the time when LKY removed him because he wanted a vote about the CA renewal. He was declared persona non grata and shot off to Perth where he had a house but he returned and did a B744 IR Renewal much to LKY's disgust. P in R stands for Permanent ( Singapore definition!!!)

expat400

18th Sep 2007, 17:44

parabellum

19th Sep 2007, 09:38

As Thermal Image persists in presenting completely illogical arguments I am left wondering if he is:

a). A Troll

b). Not working for SIA

c). Possibly an expat himself.

and have come to the same conclusion as others, TI is simply not worth the effort of responding since he wouldn't be a ble to identify logic if it got up and bit him.

Thermal Image

19th Sep 2007, 09:46

Thanks for divulging the following TI. I am sure HR will be pleased to learn where cost savings can be made.

You must be truly stupid to think that HR does not already know that the tech crew don't spend all their allowance. In any case, making such a suggestion further strengthens the fact that you are just another noisy clueless expat about how the LMA is derived. Try looking in the aircraft nav bag for the ALPA-S Collective Agreement for the formula and components of the LMA. It is not something that HR can reduce or increase at their whim and fancy.

Perhaps we should let HR know that they can save money by only paying you the meals allowance you need - maybe a 50% reduction according to your own figures. The savings could then be passed on in HA to expats at nil overall cost to the company. Brilliant - I will forward your statement immediately.

Like I said, check the aircraft nav bag. Go ahead and contact HR, make sure you copy Roger Loh while you're at it. He will be most pleased to know which captains know nothing except how to suck up to the boss. Do it!

How do you feel about the few expats that have bought condo unit(s) in Singapore and are making a fortune out of the property market TI? That OK with you?

I'm most happy for them. I even admire these guys. It demonstrates that they can read the market, have the balls to take a position and more importantly they know how to make money, three completely opposite attributes to those that you are gifted with.

So how much money have you been relieved of so far? Does it feel good?

Thermal Image

19th Sep 2007, 09:49

Thanks Millerscourt, I tried the search function but couldn't find anything.
I guess TI "had the balls to stand up" for Capt RG and that's why he's now in Beijing.
When the ALPA-S chairman cannot challenge the company I guess I'm doing the right thing to keep my head under the parapet. If the locals don't even have the guts to support their chairman an expat would be dead meat…

Oh dear, throwing stones again. The Ryan Goh fiasco was not about locals having no guts to support him. Ryan Goh, a mere council member, was a fool to agitate us to facilitate his agenda. Most of us saw through his actions. We knew where it was heading and the best thing to do to such devious characters, whose modus operandi was to hide in a crowd and drive it from behind the scenes, was to give him as much rope as he needed to hang himself with.

As to where you think I live, it's painfully obvious that you have no clue about effecting change in your workplace AND the history of ALPA-S. From said demonstrated incompetence about worldly matters, it would be completely unreasonable to expect you to have sufficient grasp on regional affairs to know the what Thermal Image and Beijing mean when the 3 words are close together.

Back to ALPA-S. Asking you to remember the facts about the Ryan Goh case is too much to expect. So let's look at something in the last year or so, the recent case of the A380 pay issue. Was that not a a successful challenge to the company by James P the then president of ALPA-S? So what is this crap that you are spewing regarding your claim that "the ALPA-S chairman cannot challenge the company"?

Thermal Image

19th Sep 2007, 09:54

parabellum

19th Sep 2007, 10:10

You must be mistaken TI, post #40 doesn't display you showing any logic at all, just meaningless vitriol. As name calling goes you don't do badly yourself, calling anyone who disagrees with you an idiot.

BANANASBANANAS

20th Sep 2007, 02:20

TI wrote;

Quote:
How do you feel about the few expats that have bought condo unit(s) in Singapore and are making a fortune out of the property market TI? That OK with you?

I'm most happy for them. I even admire these guys. It demonstrates that they can read the market, have the balls to take a position and more importantly they know how to make money, three completely opposite attributes to those that you are gifted with.

So how much money have you been relieved of so far? Does it feel good?

Thanks for being happy for me and admiring me TI. Yes, we can read the market, are most certainly not inadequately testiculated, and have done very nicely out of the market thank you very much.

So that will be you being exactly wrong on all 3 counts!

Decorum prevents me from giving my thoughts on you in a public forum - but I am sure everyone knows what we are thinking.:yuk:

Thermal Image

20th Sep 2007, 04:09

Dear Dear Parabellum,

Post #40 was to show your defective logic. You claimed that I inferred that we get paid cash at the hotel. I asked you where. For your clueless sake, I illustrated how it is that we know how much we will get for a particular COP, budget how much to spend and therefore how much is leftover.

All you do in reply to that is to hoist a silly claim that there is no logic in there. That's right, be like the rest of the weasels here, slide away from an argument and just make more stupid remarks.

Thermal Image

20th Sep 2007, 04:11

Monkeyman,

In Post #8: You said about the HA:
When I joined SIA Cargo, that was the case. Now it is not…
In post #11 you repeated your claim:
Housing Allowance used to be sufficient to rent accommodation. Now it is not.

Now in Post 51 you claim:
Thanks for being happy for me and admiring me TI. Yes, we can read the market, are most certainly not inadequately testiculated, and have done very nicely out of the market thank you very much.

So what is it, from having to top up your HA dollar for dollar because you can't bring yourself to spend less, you now suddenly claim to have made money from property in Singapore? From a mere clueless tenant that got ripped off, to a savvy propserous landlord in the space of 5 days that this thread has been running?

If you want to lie, at least try not to get caught.

So where is the comparison between your HA and what other expat pilots in Singapore get? Conveniently ignored? Or do you somehow imagine that you are worthy of being compared with (Post #11): "expat middle managers in the Finance and IT sector etc are being paid in Housing Allowance in Singapore"?

Come on then, produce the numbers. Remember to include the sources because you have shown that you live in a fantasy world going from poor tenant to rich landlord.

BANANASBANANAS

20th Sep 2007, 05:11

TI, Unlike you I think of my colleagues, for many of whom the above was, is and remains true. The HA is not sufficient now. I did not state that I was still renting - did I? When we arrived it is true that we rented within the allowance. To rent that same unit now would cost almost $6k per month.

Thankfully, due to the cojones, know how, and ability to read the market that you would like to believe I dont possess we have bought a unit for a mortgage of $2k per month less than it would now cost to rent and watched its value double in the last year.:ok::ok::ok::ok::ok:

Smart move eh? Whether you choose to believe it or not is a matter for your own jaundiced judgement but there are enough regular contributors to this forum who know my identity that also know it is true. (Left Coaster and 4 PW's for two).

What you care to believe worries me not one iota as you have already demonstrated your own bigoted, bitter and twisted agenda which is quite obviously impervious to rational argument.

Please tell me you don't take that attitude onto the Flight Deck.

Enuff Said

20th Sep 2007, 05:34

I am just curious...Are there still only a handful of HDB flats that are actually legal to rent. Previously a HDB could only be rented out by the owner if he owned another shop flat , was working as an expat himself or was approved by the government.
I remember stories in the past of the 'One room locked" procedure whereby,people were illegally renting these subsidised flats and if the HDB inspector came along you would politely say that you were only renting a room and the owner stayed in the flat,pointing to the room that was locked..
This may work if you are an expat from the area,but as a Western pilot,it is obvious that you are probably renting.(be prepared to have the concerned residents in your block call the HDB).They WILL keep sending their officers to check and see that the owner actually lives there and this will be at any hour of any day.
You may be able to obtain PR status,again you still cannot rent an illegal HDB flat but you are then able to purchase one but they are all on a 99 lease.
I do remember interviews that showed the local newspapers full of these flats for rent as thy are much cheaper than the condos to attract people.

millerscourt

20th Sep 2007, 06:49

I would not want to rent a HDB as I might find Thermal Image was my
neighbour:ugh:

Bananas Good for you. You socked it to TI there IMHO. When I was Singapore based we could not buy an apartment as we had to go through with SQ as the tenant but now with the HA paid as part of salary you got in just in time. Well done.

portquartercv67

20th Sep 2007, 20:49

THERMAL IMAGE

Mee thinks it's been a long time since you've been laid. Should we fly together in the future, I'll pay for the beer AND the girl.

BANANASBANANAS

20th Sep 2007, 21:57

Can I fly with you please PQ?:ok:

4PW's

21st Sep 2007, 05:56

I confirm the Big Banana did indeed purchase an apartment.

Along with many others, I wish I'd made an equally brave move. But at the time, SQC seemed anything but a secure employer and less the long-term prospect it has become.

In that sense I might very carefully point out, in case I offend someone's delicate sensibilities, how easily we tend to forget the outstanding work Martin has done and continues to do since the changes, circa March 2007, that were instigated, instituted and effected by him in how the system works, and accomodates us, if you'll pardon the pun.

(Note to self: prepare for a misinterpretation of the above)

May I suggest we all ignore Thermal Image, for his own good, if not for the good of the Company. Think of it as basic child psychology. Less attention equates to the diversion of interests elsewhere. Notwithstanding that, it is very unfortunate to read of someone so filled with hatred.

It has been said that hatred does more damage to the vessel it is contained in than that to which it is directed.

How very true.

Thermal Image

21st Sep 2007, 10:18

You guys are one sorry bunch of bananas.

Unable to learn from the Ryan Goh affair, you are trying to repeat it. Have the balls to use your real name and then post your grouses on PPRuNe. If you are speaking up with facts, there is nothing to fear. ALPA-S has taken SIA to court and beaten them. Why hide behind some anonymous nick and bash the company? The reason is very clear: you want to use lies and whispers and fear being caught.

Having a bunch of anonymous nicks come in to "prove" the claims of other anonymous nicks, all with curiously similar styles of writing, just shows your collective level of intelligence. Any fool can register a bunch of nicks and have them talk to each other.

And hey, Monkeyman, by accepting PQ's offer to pay for beer and girl, means that you have admitted that you can't get laid. It's all right, the Singapore government is easing up on gays. You can come out now.

And lastly, by telling each other (or yourself) to ignore me, conveniently means that you won't have to produce evidence of what other airlines in Singapore are paying their expat PILOTS for the HA. Trying to compare your HA with "expat middle managers in the finance and IT sector" ? Might as well compare your HA with PRC / Burmese / Bangla workers (they are "expat" too) who live in dorms. How clever.

PPRuNe Towers

21st Sep 2007, 12:19

I just love it when one anonymous user with an anonymous registration email address climbs up on that big high horse................:}

Regards
Rob

uareapig

21st Sep 2007, 13:46

While this is becoming a bit of a personal battle between the two of you, it would be wise to step back and really contemplate what is being said...

To be fair, i must agree that both sides do have a valid pt from their pts of view. HA should be paid to expats, that is true... everywhere in the world whether big or small there is at least some form of HA, cheap construction workers have their dorms, while rich IT managers can afford their condos. The rent in Singapore has truely been crazy and I am sure a lot of expats have been badly hit. I mean even if you had rented a place for 2yrs it is still a pain to move halfway through ur stint.

It is also true that there has been a certain air of discontentment abt the amount the expats are asking for.

However I would like to point out that this unhappiness doesnt just stamp from the fact that the expats are asking for an increase in HA. This unhappiness has started from many smaller things

How many PF sectors have the expats captains actually given the FOs?? ask any FO, and i am sure you will get the answer.....

Do the expats captains (who are supposedly more experienced) actually help the progression of the other younger pilot he has beside him? or does he just treat him as a slave?

Are the rosters fair?
because laying over for 4 days in an outside station so that you can pay a visit to your family isnt fair when the local fellows only have 2days at home after a pattern

While i agree that majority of the people are generally nice pple, not all of them make nice pilots, and even less of them are good captains....

HotelUniform

21st Sep 2007, 15:21

UAREAPIG?

You registered a new account to say all this.:ugh:

Having a bunch of anonymous nicks come in to "prove" the claims of other anonymous nicks, all with curiously similar styles of writing, just shows your collective level of intelligence. Any fool can register a bunch of nicks and have them talk to each other.

I just love it when one anonymous user with an anonymous registration email address climbs up on that big high horse................:}

You making the above true?:D

BANANASBANANAS

21st Sep 2007, 19:00

How many PF sectors have the expats captains actually given the FOs?? ask any FO, and i am sure you will get the answer.....

Do the expats captains (who are supposedly more experienced) actually help the progression of the other younger pilot he has beside him? or does he just treat him as a slave?

If you could learn to treat everyone as an individual, rather than try to lump them into either the expat or local category you would rapidly learn that, yes there are some expat Capts who dont give many sectors. But there are a hell of a lot more local Capts who are much, much worse. Its a lot to do with personal security and comfort levels. We are all (expat and local) different in that regard.

My last COP was 5 sectors. My local F/O got 4 of them. Why? Because he is keen, well prepared, has a great attitude and is pleasant to fly with. Not in any way subservient, sucking up to me or any other form of servile behaviour that you care to name - just a nice guy. If you don't get many PF sectors you might consider that statement.

Questions?

Notes for TI - though why we bother to humour him I don't know.

1. When 4PW's was editing his post (assuming 0609Z) re our condo I was airborne giving my local F/O his fourth PF sector out of 5 operating sectors.:ok::ok::ok::ok::ok:

2. I will pass on the gay comments to Mrs Bananas - she likes a good laugh.:ok::ok::ok::ok::ok:

portquartercv67

21st Sep 2007, 20:18

THERMAL IMAGE

You misunderstood. BB did not accept anything. It was a request on his part and said request is denied. He doesn't need it. You do. After carefull consideration, I have decided (only for YOU) to not only pay for the beer and GIRL (or boy if that's what floats your boat), but also to pay for anger management therapy. You really do need to get out more. When "in town" on Friday nights, I can usually be found in Clarke Quay at Iguanas. Be happy to buy you a "grita" and then take you to "Orchard Towers". I think you could find something there that would interest you. And I'll have you home to your family by curfew time. One thing I won't pay for are acting lessons. You must really be good at hiding your anger and resentment while on the flight deck. Since you have challenged others here, I challenge you to express your "true" feelings to the ex-pat asshole sitting next to you next time you go to work.

Now, who's the hypocrite?

PQ

portquartercv67

21st Sep 2007, 20:49

UAREAPIG

What planet did you just come in from? 4-day layovers at home to see mom and the kids? Since joining this esteemed outfit, I have had a sum total of three layovers "near" my family, none being of a 4 day duration. Meanwhile, every time a local comes home to SIN, he is "home". And for more than 2 days every month. Fair has nothing to do with it.

Your comment regarding ex-pat captains helping the "progression" of FOs? What exactly do you mean? The aircraft we fly is a B-744F, NOT a T-744F. And we just don't fly in the local training airspace.

And finally regarding sectors, on my trips, I start out and then alternate every other leg with the FO. That is as long as the guy next to me knows what the f--k he's doing and can fly basic airplane. I wasn't hired to be an instructor. That's SIA's job.

How are things done in "wonderful India"?

PQ

BANANASBANANAS

22nd Sep 2007, 02:20

Thanks for that PQ.

You make some very good points.

Now, for TI, UREAPIG et al. Can we please get back to the thread and discuss Housing Allowance.

I move that it is insufficient and that any company that gave a damn about its employees would have already introduced measures to mitigate the crippling rental increases effectively forced on tenants at tenancy renewal.

Discuss!:ok:

portquartercv67

22nd Sep 2007, 10:24

HOUSING ALLOWANCE
The discussion seems to center on two related issues: Is the amount enough and quality of living accomodation? It's all relative. What TI and undoubtedly many other locals (Captains, Foes, HR managers, Chief Pilots alike) don't realize, is that the ex-pats SIA hire are used to a certain standard of accomodation back home. It has nothing to do with if a HDB flat is "good enough" for us. Why would I take a job anywhere if I thought I would have to pay more than 15-20% of my pay for living accomodation of a standard I am not only used to but what I want? Why would I go down in standard of accomodation at this stage of my life? I have worked hard and been fortunate enough to be able to own and live in landed houses since 1974. I would not have come here if my salary would not support that standard.
Would TI take a job in a foreign country where his salary would allow him to only afford a standard of accomodation of say a kampong hut, assuming he is used to a HDB flat standard? I think not? Would an executive come to Singapore to take a job if he is used to a 10,000 sq/ft mansion at home and all his employer would give him in Singapore is enough to afford the level of the kind of house that I am living in here? I doubt it.
TI has also thrown out the race card. FYI TI, I'm the only white/round-eye on my street. Since coming here, I have not heard one word from ANY ex-pat that could even be considered remotely racist regarding locals. Does TI have a problem with people not of his ethnic origin?
Finally, my lease expires next Summer. If the rent goes up more than a $1000 or if that standard of accomodation somewhere else in SIN is not available within my budget (not SIA's), I'm outta here. Bond notwithstanding.
PQ

PS: To the pundits that claim we knew what we were getting into when we signed on the dotted line, so don't whine: There is no way we could have forseen a cost of housing increase of 30% a few years into our contracts, nor a deficit of 10-15% in earnings from that which was advertised.

kk pilot

23rd Sep 2007, 02:29

Had a 6 month bonus not materialized, I'm sure that a large expat exodus would have......my previous rental jumped from 5 to 8k per mo. in one year - absurd

Metro man

23rd Sep 2007, 05:19

Any one in Changi Village,or the Grand Mercure Roxy ? What are their rates like at the moment ?

BANANASBANANAS

23rd Sep 2007, 22:42

A couple of years ago the Roxy was offering Bed & Breakfast at $100 per night or a month for $2700. I will let you know later today what their current rate is.:ok:

Hot off the press:

Same room is now $160 per night. No official monthly rate but I am advised that it should be about $4500.:ok:

xband

28th Oct 2007, 10:57

Has anybody considered living in Malaysia while flying out of Changi?
Is that viable option at all?

parabellum

28th Oct 2007, 11:15

At one time it was forbidden by SIA, not sure if that is still the case.

pacificgypsy

28th Oct 2007, 14:13

Many of SIA's Malaysian pilots commute from KL and JB

xband

28th Oct 2007, 20:42

Thank you guys.

newfreighter

29th Oct 2007, 01:00

guys,

come over to changi/loyang side. there are six condos grouped on flora road/drive itself. rental for a 2 bedroom 1000 sqft condo range from 1800-2200, 3 bed room 1200-1400 sqft from 2500-3000 per month.

pool,tennis,squash,gym,bbq park,shuttle to mrt and 7mins to airport by cab. they are azalea park,ballota park,carissa park,avila garden,dhalia park etc.

*by the way, i am a local (not fr india) and expat/local captains i flown with ALL gladly gave sectors unless their own currency restricted. appreciated!

BANANASBANANAS

29th Oct 2007, 01:30

Thanks NF. It doesn't really help expats who are already settled though.

If they are coming up for tenancy renewal with children / wife settled in nearby schools / social settings etc it does seem unfair to expect people to move home just because SIA Cargo Housing Allowance has become inadequate. My view is quite simple. If the Housing Allowance covered the rental initially, it should also cover it at renewal.

That is also what the expat contract implies.

Highlander744

30th Oct 2007, 16:26

Somewhat true BB; but NF has a point. There are school buses ( Singapore is only 40 mins drive from somewhere to anywhere ) and an efficient transport system exists.

There is an excess of crew on the mainline fleet and destinations are also reducing. Cargo is sometimes a 'feast or famine' business and profit is hard to achieve - be careful not to price yourself out of work, despite the contractual impressions. Besides SQ has a 'history' with their contractual obligations !

This property hike will not last forever - plenty of expats moved in the mid 90's ( I daresay with some regret ); be wise and make the most of the property resources available and keep yourself viable.

Sorry if it hurts or appears unsympathetic (it's not the intent) - life is a compromise.

BANANASBANANAS

30th Oct 2007, 22:24

Fair points Highlander - to a degree.

I don't think anyone is expecting an increase in Housing Allowance of at least 50%, which is how much the URA rental index has increased in just over 2 years but the $200 per month increase is rightly viewed as an insult by most Cargo pilots.

Rather than pilots pricing themselves out of work, I would suggest that SIA C is starting to price itself out of pilots.

Left Coaster

31st Oct 2007, 00:00

Just a quick point wrt bussing...Not all areas have coverage for some schools, and that makes it harder to move farther away from the popular areas. Where we live, school bus 'fees' are 2K per year!....adds to the CoL doesn't it?

parabellum

31st Oct 2007, 11:39

2k per year works out at about S$15.00 per day I think, would a contract with Mrs LKY's taxi company be cheaper?

Left Coaster

31st Oct 2007, 12:57

You would think, but no way would the girl ride in a Taxi all by herself...(eeeewwwww Da-ad!) At least on the bus she can ride with her friends and there's a "bus aunty" to keep the yukky boys in line! Well worth the $$$...:rolleyes:

parabellum

1st Nov 2007, 00:42

I get your point but was thinking along the lines of four kids sharing and splitting the cost with others, assuming you have some cooperative neighbours in the same boat as you.

In the slot

10th Nov 2007, 01:46

Hi gents.
I have been in SIN for over 10 years, and I am not singaporean.
I think there is one huge factor to consider.
When I came to SIN, I resigned myself to never being able to afford to own a house or car in Singapore. When I first came, apartment rental prices were very high, as were car COE's. I rented in a condo that I could afford. Friends of mine in other countries had 2000sq ft apartments or landed properties, but I had a 1000sq ft apartment......I lived in my means.

As time passed, and after 9-11 and SARS the housing market tanked.
When prices dropped, I gained from lower rental costs, to my pleasure. here is the point...... Although when prices dropped, I could have afforded to "upgrade" my accommodation and live on Orchard Road, I chose not to, I maintained my standard of living and aprtment location.

Many of the people hurting now, have fallen victim of living somewhere that was slightly unrealistic, but they did not realise this. I will expand. Pilots arriving in Singapore 3 years ago, were able to rent a good landed property well located, or a nice large condo in a central area (as I could have done too) because of the abnormally low rents after SARS and 9-11. the problem is, that having no experience of the Singapore market, they didnt realise HOW CHEAP the rents were 2-3 years ago. They considered this normal. Actually they were fortunate to be living in places that I could never dream of living in when I first came to SIN over ten years ago. Therefore they "set their goalposts" at that level. An unrealistic level.

Now the rents have gone up to more realistic levels, if you look at the history of Singapore, and the economic development, these unexpectedly unrealistic "goalposts" have now been smashed. This is indeed regrettable, and no real fault of the Pilots, nor the company.

When I first came to SIN, very few expat pilots would plan to live in district 9 or 10, and not many would have 2500sq ft apartments even on the east coast. The case now is the same for new joiners....the only problem is that up until a year or so ago, some of our colleagues thought that the above styles of living were normal (as they were affordable at that time), but now realise they were under a false impression.

My advise.....naturally, pressurise the company for more HA...as anyone would, but also consider moving out to somewhere less central. There is still plenty of affordable condos in pasir ris or other areas and of a decent standard...and bide your time for the rental allowance to improve, or for the market to drop again in a few years (not expected real soon). For those of you who have children at schools, then this is part of the regrettable adjustments too. Do what you have to do in tougher times, thats the best we can do!

Final note....It is still possible to buy in outer areas.....and use your allowance to pay the mortgage.......I dont say its an easy choice, but it should not be ignored.

Good luck to all!

for those of you buying cars......when i first came here, a COE of $80,000 was not unusual for a two litre car! See, its not all bad news for newish joiners!

BANANASBANANAS

10th Nov 2007, 03:48

A balanced post on the face of it In the slot.

However, please let me expand.

If the basic salary of an SIA Cargo pilot was industry standard before Housing Allowance I would be inclined to agree with you 100%, but it is not. Not by any means.

Industry standard (Best Practice - call it what you like) is that when employing expats the host company either provides suitable housing (rents directly from landlord) or provides an allowance for such housing. If they do not do this then market forces take over and pilots leave. That is now starting to happen.

Sure, the economics of Singapore have altered but so has the global demand for pilots. If SIA C don't up the ante pdq they could well struggle to crew flights. Worse, they could be stuck with a few disgruntled pilots who want to leave but can't afford to because of the bond.

In the slot

10th Nov 2007, 05:23

Bananas, yes I agree.

My post was made taking into account getting a fixed amount of housing benefit through the ups and downs of a property market (and the SQC/SIA allowance, I guess, has remained pretty much fixed!).

As mentioned in my post, I fully understand why crew should push for a higher HA. I just wanted to highlight the fact that not only should the HA maybe be re addressed, but also maybe SOME crew have a somewhat higher expectation of what and where their accommodation should be in Singapore. Naturally, quality of life a city offers is not merely down to the size of an apartment or house. As usual, a reasonable solution normally lies somewhere between the extremes of both opinions!

Market forces are now fully in effect, and being felt.
Naturally, if SQC does not pay what MOST of the crew deem reasonable, then maybe people will start moving. No doubt this will have to start to happen for allowances to increase. :uhoh:

My sympathies with those facing this tough decision.
Do your homework.......the Dirham has dropped about 25% over the last 2 years against most hard currencies, except the USD with which it is linked!

Good luck to all!