American training UK jobs?

[garn]

Hi,

Firstly,sorry if this is somewhere already in a past thread,but ive read through alot of stuff on here and i cant seem to find the answer/views on this.

If you train in the US (ppl,cpl,cpi,cpii) get your JAA conversions (as a side question does anyone know how much that costs??) how likely are you to be employed in this country?

Im poor,which is a bad start!! but i may do my ppl(h) here,and groundschool if i can afford it.
However, the US is cheaper and makes more sense for me because of this, but ultimately i want to work here, possibly teaching, maybe oil rig work, just something where im in a helicopter and im not homeless because of it!!!

Thanks in advance for any views on this!!

[helimutt]

use the search function. Been done to death a million times on here.

[Heliport]

It certainly has.
And there's no consensus of opinion.

Exceptions, but generally -

People who trained in the UK say it's a disadvantage to train in America even though you save money, or that you don't save much in the long run.
People who trained in America say it doesn't make any difference, and the saving is worthwhile even allowing for UK costs when you get back.
Those still in training tend to say the option they've chosen is best.
FIs and others connected with schools tend to advise training in the country where they are based, and some promote their own schools. (They sometimes forget to mention it's not neutral advice. ;) )


This is a good place to start looking: So you want to be a Pilot (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=253856)

[rick1128]

I don't work for them, but Bristow's training school in Florida offers both FAA and JAA training and if I read their website correctly will combine the programs so you get both certificates (FAA & JAA). It's worth looking into.

[helicopterpilot]

I say do your training in the US at a school which offers J-1 Visas and build some flight time there as a flight instructor. Training and flying in the US is excellent and the initial costs are lower.

Get 1000 hrs and THEN you worry about converting to JAA.

It'll be hard work and a lot of $/£ no matter what you decide though.

Good luck!:ok:

[BaronG]

1) Employment. If you want to be employed by people who know you (i.e. increase your chances of being employed) then you'll have to get to know them somehow - many instructors do this by training at the place they end up working.

If you wish/plan to instruct in JAA-land then the logical thing is to train at the place you want to work. This is what people mean about contacts, but note that this is to get the first job, it won't necessarily help you later on.
If you don't plan to instruct for that long (or not in JAA-land at least), then you'll eventually be applying to companies who don't know you (Offshore, Charter etc). For that situation, experience and passing their various tests is what will matter and you can get that experience by instructing in a non-JAA-Land place (a dark shadowy place apparently where they don't have JARs - sounds scary to me!)

So what I'm saying is that if you plan to turn up at Company Y's door with 1000 hours Total time in your book from outside the JAA, you've probably got as much of a chance of getting a job as a JAA based instructor with the same hours since neither of you will be a known quantity to the employer (in the current market, perhaps they'll take both of you).

2) Cost for converting. FAA CPL/IR -> JAA CPL/IR allow about £40,000 total (subject to the usual caveats).
BG.

[anti-talk]

BaronG,

Justify the 40K price tag please, as I see it it is just 15 hours to convert the IR FAA - JAA (which can be done in a combination of piston /Jet Ranger plus twin (Cabair,Bristows et al)?
CPL conversion at most is 35 hours plus the ground exams.
Am I incorrect??? Is flying training in the UK really 40K for 50 hours Total Time?

[manfromuncle]

In the UK....

To 'convert' a FAA CPL to a JAA CPL will cost about £7,000 (this includes £3,000 groundschool/exams cost) - LASORS says 'flight training as necessary'.

To 'convert' a FAA IR to a JAA IR will cost about £25,000

[ScrumpyLuvver]

Erm... :eek:

If I trained in South Africa to CPL(H) FI, what sort of costs would I be looking at to convert in the UK?

SL

[HillerBee]

The cost are always the same. You're doing a ICAO CPL->JAA CPL conversion. If you're looking for a cheap way to fly helicopters, just forget it, doesn't exist.

[anti-talk]

Bristow do a single engine IR that is abridged to only 15 hours (I have many friends who converted that way) if you have an ICAO IR for approx 12 grand. Add this to the 7 for a CPL and you get 17K not 40K
Geoff

[Bravo73]

anti-talk,

If you need to add a twin TR and the multi-engine upgrade to the IR (so that the rating can actually be used in JAA-land), add another £18k or so to that figure. :eek:


Like HillerBee has already said, there are no cheap ways of doing this. Just slightly less expensive ones... :(

[manfromuncle]

There's no way the B206 IR at bristow is only £12k. It's more like £20k.

[anti-talk]

Im sorry, I stand to be corrected. But 20K for 15 hrs in a 206 seems a bit steep. My numbers are at least 18 months old.
Does this price include a twin type rating perhaps as well?

[manfromuncle]

It does not include any type rating at all or a multi IR rating. You get a single IR rating. I don't know why it's so pricey, but this is what people I know have paid.

[Bravo73]

You two seem to be talking about slightly different courses.

The full Bristow single IR course (45/50hrs - 15hrs sim, 30/35hrs B206) is in the region of £27k. I'm afraid that I don't have a price for the FAA/ICAO conversion course (although £12k would sound about right.)

The £18k (for a multi-engine upgrade) is in addition to this (although I must add that this isn't Bristow's price.)

[manfromuncle]

Yes, it's best to check the current price with the FTO!

[BaronG]

The £40K figure I quoted was based on :

1) Doing the ATPL course. Distance learning will be a bit cheaper, a full time course dearer. Remember that each exam costs ~ £60 at the CAA in addition to the course costs.

2) Doing the JAA CPL conversion ~ guess at 10hrs or so + £400 test fee.

3) Doing an FAA-JAA IR conversion. This is going to come to about £20K in the end, maybe just under. That cost is for a twin rating, IR and sim time, and the exam (which costs ~£500 if my memory serves). When I looked at the Bristow price for the 206, it wasn't significantly different even though it didn't include the twin rating and time.

Also note that these estimates include VAT which is generally not quoted in the prices given by the schools.

Finally, given that it will take you around 8 months to get all that done (assuming things go smoothly, could easily be longer) I included some money for paying rent/B&B fees and eating.

I actually managed to do it a bit cheaper than that ~ around £32K in the end, but my wife was still working so that covered food and bills for example. That price was getting the exams and flight tests first time in the mins and not having to wait around too long for courses.

BG.

[garn]

Thanks!! got abit of a debate going,which kind of answrs my question.Theres not a straight answer! However it could be worth hourbuilding in america.

It seems that seen as i want to work in the UK it would be best to train in the UK as conversion to JAA,s ends up costing more!Also geting the first job is important and if a flight school will take you on as an instructor aftet youve trained there its better than possibly nothing!

Now wheres that rainbow...got to find the pot of gold!!!

[BaronG]

It seems that seen as i want to work in the UK it would be best to train in the UK as conversion to JAA,s ends up costing more!

Not quite.

0 -> JAA CPL/IR will cost you ~£90K - £100K if you did it all in the UK. As usual I'm including living costs and tax in that figure.

0 -> FAA CPL/IR + CFI -> JAA CPL/IR will come out around £60K - £70K again including tax etc.

Assuming you've instructed in both cases, then in principle you can save money and end up at the door of a helicopter company (offshore for example) by doing the training in the USA (and possibly in Aus, NZ or others).

However, there are various pitfalls with doing that stuff in the USA too, not least of which is the issue of Visas and working...

BG.

[garn]

Interesting doing the IR conversion in denmark TorqueStripe.

Out of interest how much did the FAA cpl/cfi and cfii cost you at HAI/Bristows?and how did you manage to go back for the JAA cpl? did you still have time on your J1? Ive had a brief chat with bristows and it does seem like quite a hassle to get visas for the US, understandable i guess.

The rest looks pretty cheap and very good route! and it looks like youve got a job on the rigs!so well done!!

p.s you did your ppl(h) in the uk?

[ScrumpyLuvver]

TS

If you don't mind me asking.. Who did you train with in the US and from/To what level

0 - CPL(H) + CFI = ? $48000?
0 - CPL(H) + CFI CFII = ? $48000?

[ScrumpyLuvver]

I keep hearing people mention J1 visas for the states, Is there an equivallent for South Africa? Does anyone have experience of this? I have searched the forum but found nothing.

How tough is it to get a working Visa whilst training in South Africa? or before beginning?

Should I be asking this of my future training company? Just wanted a bit of impartial advice.

TIA

SL

[ScrumpyLuvver]

Has anyone heard of Helicopter Services Inc. in Spring Texas near Houston? http://www.heliserv.com/main/index.htm

Do they have a good name in the industry? Anyone know them?

Cheers

SL

[Pandalet]

I don't know much about South African visas, as I don't need one to visit, but I have some first-hand experience of license validations (JAA PPL(H)). If this is of any use to you, drop me a PM and I'll be happy to offer any info / advice I can.

[Laggie]

TS: What is an H3 visa? What is requried from the company that sponsors?

[anti-talk]

H3 is a very little known visa that allows non J1 Visa schools like my own to 'sponsor' students and allow them to work in the US for two years as a Flight Instructor to enable timebuilding through to an FAA ATPL.
It is not straight forward but if you know how to operate the system and can bear about $5K in legal costs it can be done and rapidly.

[Laggie]

So it´s possible to take an H3 after a J-1?? if you find a company willing to sponsor the visa ofcourse.

Are companys/flightschools generally not willing to sponsor an H3?

[Mikey D]

As i understand from talking to flight schools in the states about the H3 visa most are unwilling to offer it in most circumstances mainly because of all the paper work they have to go through when they can easily get an american citizen to fill the position

[anti-talk]

As a British Citizen who owns a Part 141 flight school that operates 11 helicopters, I would be open to sponsoring an H3 for a student that trained / worked with us. I would expect the prospective employee to bear all of their legal costs and deal with the paperwork however - as mikey is indeed right employing a US citizen is indeed far more straightforward.
This is a visa that cannot be 'overused' by an employer and thus the employer has to be quite selective regarging whom they sponsor.
Another post J visa option or substitute is an F Visa, we now offer the only Rotorcraft Specific AS degree in Professional Pilot Studies available in Florida.
This course is partnered with Palm Beach Community College in West Palm Beach (where we are) and combines credits from flight training (32 out of 64 required) to get an AS degree.
There are many ways to 'skin a cat' on this issue.
Geoff