View Full Version : Twin hours light aircraft experience, your views.


EGCC4284
11th Sep 2007, 10:47
Twin hours

Can I ask how many people would jump at the chance of getting some twin hour experience if they were offered a job, lets say flying an Aztec doing some light aircraft charter work and being offered payment for doing so.

Would be interested in how many of you would view this as good experience and how many of you would want to do it.

Can I also ask how many of you that now fly large commercial jet and at one point during your career flew light twin engine aircrafts. What types of jobs you had flying light twins etc etc etc

How do many of you view flying light twin engine aircraft and how important do you think it is in helping make you look more attractive to that ultimate job.



The Otter's Pocket
11th Sep 2007, 10:59
Defo - As an FI with all the ticks, bells and whistles I am looking for as many twin hours as possible.
Look at the job adverts many want twin hours.
I would jump at the chance, including re-locating.

Regards
TOP

AlphaMale
11th Sep 2007, 11:10
I can't understand why the question is being asked :confused:

As TOP said, most airline job adverts are looking for 200+ / 500+ Multi hours, If I was in this situation I wouldn't need to give it a second thought. Getting paid to fly twins :p

EGCC4284
11th Sep 2007, 11:49
There is a very very important reason as to why I am asking the question which I will explain at a later date.

I would like to hear as many views as possible with regards to how twin hours would make you more attractive to gaining employment with the big aircraft operators or whether people think this is just a myth.

I would also like to hear what sort of twin hour light aircraft job guys and girls have done before there big break into a Turbo Prop or Jet job

There is a very very important reason why I am asking these questions and I will reveal all at a later date.

Would appreciate if anyone can turn this into a POLL thread asking the question Who thinks its important to try and get twin hours in order to make themselves more attractive to employment.

I don't know how to make a POLL thread.

Thanks Rob

redsnail
11th Sep 2007, 17:11
Define large jet? Why large jet?

Yes, I have quite a few hours on piston twins and yes, now a captain on a jet. Albeit not a large one but I'd hazard a guess I do more challenging flying.
Twin flying was bush charter and scenic along with specialist mission work.

Any experience in a commercial operation is good. If you're being paid to fly and to make command decisions, the experience is invaluable.

If the difference means you have 500 hours versus 250 hours, then go for it.

mrwilko
11th Sep 2007, 19:54
I would definitely go for it. As an older FATPL I get by-passed by age-ist HR departments who ignore my 1300 + SEP hours and prefer a raw 250 hr integrated cadet who's advantage is youth but can't handle a crosswind and will soon bugger off to BA. (sorry if I sound bitter.)
If I had some twin hours there are operators who I know would take me on. I'm in the process of building those but it's a hard slog.
Best of luck and go for it. Aztec? old bird but queen of the skies.

bobster1
11th Sep 2007, 21:28
There is a very very important reason why I am asking these questions and I will reveal all at a later date.


The suspense is killing me....see your north west based and you mention Aztecs, can I take a punt, Ravenair?

I know of several guys who flew air taxi at Ravenair, and now all fly jets, some were on T/Ps to start with but soon moved on.

As mentioned the experiance in a commercial environment is invaluable, command descisions, commercial awareness, willing to bat off in the middle of the night in all weather, character building stuff.

Snap there hand off if its offered, it will stand you head and shoulders above the average 250 hours recently qualified people.
Hard work, but will be well worth it, god knows how many people are out there who would love the chance to be paid to fly and build twin hours.
Not only all the above, but your in the system and on the ladder to success, who knows who you will meet on your travels, networking and building contacts within the industry.

And Ravenair know they are a stepping stone for newbies to the trade and are generally very supportive if a airline chance comes along.
Thats if it is Ravenair?

best of luck..

Fair_Weather_Flyer
11th Sep 2007, 23:20
......yeah but the problem is that these jobs are not available to newbies as they already require a certain amount of twin time.

Life's a Beech
12th Sep 2007, 00:54
Legally they can be done with little twin time. The problem is the job is actually very difficult, so most companies ask for 40 hours IFR as P1 in a twin, same as is required for single-crew certificated aircraft. We do as a rule. As it is at the moment if you came to me with a fair few hours and an interesting background and you could convince me of your abiolity to fly and to operate an aircraft then I would consider taking you on, whatever the twin time. We even take on very occasional newbies, but only locals as they are expected to be low-paid pilots' assistant/ops assistants initially, doing only non-revenue flying and otherwise being the office and ramp gopher.

The reason for our taking on selected lower-hour pilots answers what I think is the underlying question - will it help me get a good job? Our pilots move on, and we always need more. They have little trouble getting jobs in airlines, and those that stay a year or so get good captaincy experience that will certainly help in their future selection for command. That is experience that so many FOs lack nowadays, many having never even signed for an aircraft without an instructor countersigning it!

Snoop
14th Sep 2007, 01:31
If you are at the beginning of you career and age is on your side, then ask yourself why did you want to be a pilot?

If you want to fly, do your self a favour and take the twin job. If you want to program an FMC and an autopilot, leave the twin job to somebody that actually wants to fly and join the rest of the sheep.

Finals19
14th Sep 2007, 14:05
Fair comment Snoop, but you won't find tons of people who fly light twins for life and never transition up to button pushing cozy flight decks.

In response to the original poster, getting twin hours and some twin PIC time in a commercial op can only help your profile. I think I am safe in saying that light twin flying, which can often be cargo etc, is VERY demanding, all the more so if you are single pilot IFR op'd (Beech...care to confirm?!) I was lucky enough to rack up 800 hours combined in FO/PIC roles on a PA31 where we operated two crew (due to local area terrain, aka mountainous) and the command decision experience learning curve was huge. Hopefully it will be a selling point once I have finished my ATPL licence conversion here in the UK.

If you can get in with a company, even as FO or part time ground duties to build those hours, then go for it. You certainly have your work cut out in a light twin when the wx are down in the wee dark hours, but you'll come out better for it.

Best of luck!

FlyingNikonian
15th Sep 2007, 11:27
Having flown a fair bit of light-twin myself (500+hrs ME and most of it P1), I'm not so sure about the value of those hours any more.
The better part of them in a BN2 and para-ops, but also a fair amount of IFR P1.
Most of the operators I've been in contact with, frown at the hours built in para-ops, and honestly, I can't understand why!?
At times it is much harder to stand firm in your professional and safe attitude towards flying, in an enviroment that is notoriously "drop-zone-minded", than it is when you're working together with other pro's.
Skydivers have a tendency to be a little "relaxed", when it comes to making that go/no-go decision and putting safety first.;)
( Free-flyers are the worst!:E Especially those that exit in a head-down and stay that way until it's time to pull.:E:E )

Now, don't get me wrong here....
Para-flying is great fun, but you can't make a living out of it!
It can also be, contrary to popular belief, a demanding type of flying. Especially if it's in a larger para-club, with a long list of jumpers, waiting for their slot.
They usually don't look kindly on delays,....no matter the reason!!:=

P.S Should anyone have an idea of any operator in need of drivers, please feel free to PM me!!:ok: (I fulfill the SP IFR req's, and then some!) D.S

zakka
15th Sep 2007, 13:03
Take the twin job. If not for the hours, then for the experience. The hrs will help you though, but as redsnail said any command experience will be invaluable.

Life's a Beech
17th Sep 2007, 14:52
Finals19

I can certainly confirm that! When the autopilot goes tech in flight you know why your earning better money than your contemporaries flying FO on a turboprop or a bizjet. I would also expect you to find your hours there a selling point, if my colleagues' cases are anything to go by. No-one has any trouble getting another job, some pass tough sim rides with ease others even have their sim rides waived. We know that most pilots only stay about a year in this sector, so they usually go with our blessing and very good references.

rotary
18th Sep 2007, 21:03
Take the job flying the twin.
It will only be of benefit to you in the future.
A good grounding in instrument flying will pay huge dividends.
I fly a big jet and my standby instruments are very small. If I were to need to use them I am glad that I have about 1000hrs on Cessna twins to fall back on.
It is a concern of mine that new F/O's with a couple of hundred hours start flying these fancy jet without the basics of instrument flying. After all the EFIS screens go dark what are they going to rely on?
Hopefully some experience
Good luck with the new job.:ok:

EYZ
19th Sep 2007, 07:12
You should fly what ever you can when ever you can. just forget, for a moment at least employment, when you do get to fly big jets you will wish for small piston engines I do. I am currently a Captain on A340-500 and -600 and wish for smaller planes and more interesting flying. However, I know this is where the money is. all I'm saying is fly what comes along until you get a good first step on the ladder and enjoy it.

Mrmoeller
20th Sep 2007, 07:07
My aviation career summary;
2003-2005: Integrated ATPL course
2005-2006: Photoflights, sightseeing flighs, ferry fligts on SEP(L)
2006-2007: Flight Instruction, Taxi/schedules flights SEP(L) and MEP(L)
2007- ? : FO Turboprop (Fk50) - bonding (company covered expenses)
MEP(L) type was Britten Norman Islander. I was PIC on scheduled flights to small Islands (short rwy's and only VMC approaches.)
The hours gained on this proved valuable for getting my TP job. It is confidence building on flight deck as well as in an interview situation.
Good luck whatever you do.
By the way; It is a nice feeling when you have something else than "school experience" to talk to your captain about!
Br. Michael

Brian Fantana
20th Sep 2007, 10:01
I'm with AlphaMale on this one.
I cant believe you are asking the question :confused::confused:
Its a no brainer!!!

Wee Weasley Welshman
3rd Oct 2007, 08:44
Of course any aspiring commercial pilot will grab with both hands any opportunity to fly a twin. To purchase an hour costs hundreds of pounds. To be able to fly a twin and record that in your logbook for no or little cost is worth hundreds of pounds per hour in experience.

Plus it is exciting and it is interesting. It adds to your range of abilities and skills as a pilot. Flying a twin engine aircraft after flying only singles feels like a big step up on the ladder. Which it is.

If anyone offers you the chance to fly a twin even if it is just a few circuits post maintenance or maybe a short navigation trip to a nearby airfield then you should not hesitate to grab that opportunity. Occasionally twins do need to be moved over greater distances and such ferry trips can allow a good few hours to be logged for free. Just remember that you cannot accept payment unless you hold a Commercial license. A bottle of wine for your trouble if not unknown though.

Cheers

WWW

speedtapeking
18th Oct 2007, 15:00
so do we ever find out the important reason your asking then ??

dnk
19th Oct 2007, 14:50
Take the twin job, and please reveal the reason - suspense is killing me...

EGCC4284
15th Nov 2007, 12:27
"The jury found you involved innocent pilots with the promise of flying work in the future."

Two of my best friends lives have been put though hell for the last 12 months after inadvertently being used for someone else's criminal activities.


The 2 pilot's being the wannabe's that they are, have had their lives dragged through hell after being WRONGLY accused of being involved in the case in this article.

They have spent the last 8 weeks appearing in court, charged with a serious offence, even though there was NO direct evidence.

So as everyone says, "Just take the job" "You would be a fool not to do it" etc etc Think long and hard about who it is you are really going to be flying for and are they a reputable Light Aircraft Charter Company.

One of my friends has just been on the phone to me to tell me of how his life has been for the last 12 months. He also told me how it felt to be stood in court waiting for the guilty or not guilty verdict.

He has also just told me how it felt when he heard the NOT GUILTY verdict.

Wannabes, be careful who you except work from. Do your homework and if in doubt DON'T DO IT, CHECK ALL PAPERWORK AND DON'T TRUST NOBODY TO DO IT FOR YOU??

This thread was going to be used in court to show how wannabe's would give their right arm to get twin hours.

Here is an abstract from the article which has been published in the local paper

A man who was the mastermind of a drugs gang has been jailed for 18 years.
He and three other members of the gang were convicted by a jury at Court yesterday of flying in more than 2million of cocaine from France to the UK.

The were jailed for a total of 57 years.

The drugs were flown in on two flights but the three pilots involved were acquitted by the jury and discharged from the dock.
The cocaine smuggled in on the first flight in 2005 went undetected and it was only by chance the second consignment of 18 kilos was discovered.

The firm which had hired out the plane were concerned when it was delayed and alerted the authorities.

The Judge said he was satisfied The Air Charter Company Owner had orchestrated the plot and with his knowledge of the aviation business and his experience of flying to airfields in France "took full advantage of the system, knowing that there was a very very good chance you would never be detected."

The Judge jailed two of the members, whom he described as the "controlling force" in the enterprise, for 18 years.

The drugs courier received 14 years and the last member, whose role was to collect the courier and the drugs from the second flight, was jailed for seven years.

He also told The Air Charter Company Owner who ran a plane ferrying company, "The jury found you involved innocent pilots with the promise of flying work in the future."

They were all convicted of conspiracy to smuggle.

Co-incidentally speaking on the day that the government announced tougher security measures at airports the Judge expressed his concern "at the ease with which light aircraft can fly from and to this country with passengers on board without immigration or customs knowing anything about it.

To my 2 dear friends, I wish you luck in getting your life's back together and hope that your dreams that were almost shattered come true.

"The jury found you involved innocent pilots with the promise of flying work in the future."

Regards Rob

gcolyer
15th Nov 2007, 13:28
One of my good friends is indeed one of those pilots! and he had a rough ride!! he also would prefer for this not to band about on PPrune!

EGCC4284
15th Nov 2007, 14:36
gcolyer
NOT TO BE BAND ABOUT ON PPRUNE
gcolyer


What, the fact that 3 innocent wannabe pilots were WRONGLY ACCUSED of being involved in a conspiracy to bring drugs into the UK and have just had the worst 12 months of their lives because of the arseholes that have just been sent to jail.

Two of the three pilots are my friends and have asked me to mention it here as a warning to others.

As you can see from what I have posted, no names have been mentioned.

The fact that all three names were plastered all over the papers during the last 12 months and that I have not mentioned there names here, I cannot understand why you post the above.

Like I said, they have gone through hell and my two friends have asked me to mention it as a warning to others.

Before flying anything, anywhere for anyone, make sure you do your homework.

One other very very important point learnt from this.

As a wannabe, you can join BALPA very cheaply. I think its about 24 a year and this gives you access to the best lawyers in the industry. I would strongly advise all to join BALPA even before they get that dream job just in case you one day need them.

Regards EGCC4284

gcolyer
15th Nov 2007, 18:08
EGCC....

The 3rd pilot (My friend) is so fed up with it and just wants to move on. There was a thread in Private Flying in which someone from the prosectution (who lives and flies in bournmouth) was casting verdicts before they were made.

His last 18 months have been hell and would rather not have any more speculation going on. I can't say I blame him really.

Flintstone
16th Nov 2007, 01:01
A melodramatic and pointless thread.

At least one of the pilots concerned seems to want it left alone and there are better ways to warn aspiring pilots than silly games and trick questions.

Forum mod, wherefore art thou and thy padlock? http://www.barryboys.co.uk/phpBB2/images/smiles/lockandkey.gif

As for BALPA and their legal team, don't make me laugh. I've had first hand experience of them and unless they deem it 'financially efficient' to get involved you're out on your own no matter how long you've been a member. The fact that said case was won without their help seemed not to bother their consciences one little bit either.



Aaaaand........breathe.

Jinkster
16th Nov 2007, 09:11
i too know both of the once accused - best of luck guys!!!

zakka
17th Nov 2007, 01:35
Good thing they got away not guilty. What are the chances of ending up in a drug smuggling company in Europe these days?

Still, take the twin job. If you have to be worried about every job, then better stay at home. If you are so unlucky to get involved in a bad company then you take it from there. With that said - it is always good to do a little research.