R44 Purchase

[miket_68]

After many failed attempts to book out an R44 from my local (40miles away) field, due to it goign tech, or maintenance, or double booking etc.

I am looking into the options of a way of clocking up some hours towards my CPL(H).

Now before anyone starts on me I cant go to the states or oz or NZ due to family and work commitments.

I have read about flying groups for fixed wing but they dont seem to be that popular for helis (that I am aware of anyway).

Is anyone aware of a R44 group in the Cambridge / Peterborough area.

Failing that does anyone have an R44 that I could rent from them, after a check ride insurance upgrades etc.

My main stumbling block is that I only have 10 hours on the R44 I can understand peoples reluctance to rent (or lend if they are feeling very generous) to such a low hour pilot.

I have contacted a couple of other airfields in the area to check availability of an R44, I am still waiting for them to call me but (not a good sign).

My last option (that I can see), is to buy my own R44 (no bear with me)
Run it for a year to clock the required times (only 90 now !!) then sell it on and start my CPL course.

Firstly if I bought a new R44 (£210k I beleive). What would the running costs be, 50 hour check etc.

Also what would it cost in fuel per hour.



I live 5 miles from Peterborough - Conington.

Hope I get some positive answers but after reading many posts on here there seems to be many out there who just like to talk down to you.

So I am a newbie, I HAVE low hours, I am inexperianced but can you remember that far back when you were there too ?

Thanks.

Mike

PS. R44 over R22 due to the err,, hmmm waist line.

[206 jock]

Why buy a new one? Leave that to the rock stars. If you're a beefy chap, you don't need hydraulics.
Buy this one: http://www.avbuyer.com/AircraftSales/AircraftResults.asp?aid=17290
Bring it over, put in on a G, run it for your 100 hours, flog it on. The price won't drop much.
I'm not the owner!

[cholmondeley]

I am wanting to buy a decent (sub 500 hr)used R44 -probably a Raven 2. My gut feeling is to buy privately(with a survey!). I am a little wary of dealers/brokers but perhaps that is how the majority are bought and sold in UK. If buying privately is a realistic option, where do you find them other than the odd one in Helidata? I've heard of a forum called "Helideals" but have been unable to access their website. Any advice would be appreciated.

[Bravo73]

Great plan, 206 jock. But one very good reason not to do it - hassle!

But, if the aircraft was required solely for hour-building, keep it on the N reg. You will only need it on the G if you intend it to be used for AOC work.

(And, fyi, I would always go for a Raven over an Astro. The hydraulics/trim system isn't just a question of 'brawn'. Would you willingly hover your 206 with the hydraulics turned off?)

[slim40]

MikeT,

Mike Horrell has an R44 at Conington (it's been away for spray kit fitting or something for a while, but was back at the w/e)- it belongs to MFH helicopters, but available for SFH and instruction via Mike.
I had a pm a while ago from a guy caled Dick who has an R44 R2 on order and is going to make it available to a 'select few' for SFH. I think he heard from Mike H that I was wanting to do my R44 conversion and rack some hours up. I've not heard anything for a few weeks, but can send him a pm and ask him if you like (unless you are reading this, Dick)? I'm low airtime in helis too- 75hrs.

PS I'm halfway through doing a rating on the Hughes 500- plenty of space in that, and shed loads of power to boot!

BR
Slim

[Chukkablade]

I will be watching this thread with interest. Speaking as someone else who hires a '44 on a regular basis, and is paying the thick end of £440 an hour for the priveledge, I'm starting to think just bloody buying one would be the best way to go.

Hence any and all tips posted on this thread, big thanks from your ol' mate here Chukka also:ok:

[bvgs]

Personally I'd buy one, use it for your own use and lease it back to the school where they are always double booked etc. I wouldn't buy new and if you buy for the right price you will get your money back. The yellow and black one suggested by 206 jock isn't such a bad idea and remember because its not hydraulic does not mean that it flys like a hydraulic machine with the hydraulics switched off. I have flown both hydraulic and non hydraulic machines and sure the hydraulic is much better but you are working to a budget here. One other consideration is that the flight school may be reluctant to lease back a non hydraulic machine, might be worth checking first. The machine advertised is in good nick, I bought a Raven 2 from the same guy who gets them from a pipeline inspection company in Germany, so they're not worked hard and no I have no interest financial or otherwise but can tell you he has had the machine at least since November last year when I bought mine.

A raven 1 or Astro will burn around 17 gallons an hour and insurance will vary on hull value and whether or not you lease it back for trainingbut on a spend of around £115k expect to pay around £7k witha n extra £1.5k if the lease back is required. You can also just add it for a few months if that was suitable to you and the flight school.

If I can be of further help just ask.

[bvgs]

Private message me and I'll send you some details.

[helicopter-redeye]

Those insurance figures look too low esp if being used for training.

16USG/ hr fuel burn (~61 litres * £1.14/l + VAT)

50/100/Ann checks around £900/£1500/£2000 + parts & consum) PLUS any extra costs that may emerge through misuse by third parties.

[slim40]

Chukka,

You need to shop around if you're paying that much for an R44. A 206 can be had for a tenner or so more at Sloane, R44 is about £360 with the VAT. I can only assume you're using one of the London based outfits, they seem to be very pricey on all fronts where choppers are concerned.

cheers
Slim

[Chukkablade]

Hi Slim,

Thanks for your reply. I've had some P.M.'s on the subject that also suggest the pricing is more than a little 'off', so thanks also to those who took the time to P.M. me. Location wise, I'm in Scotland, not London, and we aren't very well served up here when it comes to choice of establishment to hire from, so the attitude from the S.F.H. providers tends to be very much that of 'Those are the prices. pay it. Or don't.' All in the nicest possible way of course, but thats effectively the gist of it.

I could reduce this hourly figure some if I pay for a block of 5/10/20 or 50 up front. But why should I have to be effectively held to ransom like this? Although I don't fear the honesty of either of the outfits I use, and don't feel they will skip off into the ether owing me cash, I just don't see why I should have to tie up a large sum of money just to get a decent rate, nor take the (however small) risk.

If I ran my own business like so, I'd be v.broke, v.quick. No question. When I hire a car from Avis while abroad on business, I don't have to drop a sizable sum of cash for future hires just to get a decent rate today, so why should aviation be different? Thats not a rhetorical question, if anyone from a SFH outfit can give me decent answer, I'll take time to think on it.

So, all said and done, it's looking like it's time to go traveling over the UK, get a decent rate to go play in a machine, and experience some new types (I've only flown Robbo's so far, and I'm itching to try something else) then just try and get a decent deal on the purchase of a machine to get my hours up to the level I need for CPL.

One other thing, certain rental outfits love to tell me how hard it is to make a living right now, and you can see it in the way they are aggresively chasing any business they can. With attitudes to pricing like those I've experienced, is it a wonder they see hour builders go elsewhere and low hour pilots (like me) just sod off and buy a machine?

Mad situation, isn't it?

Cheers.

[Bravo73]

I just don't see why I should have to tie up a large sum of money just to get a decent rate

So, no other businesses also offer 'bulk discounts'? :hmm:

[helicopter-redeye]

Thats not a rhetorical question, if anyone from a SFH outfit can give me decent answer, I'll take time to think on it.

It's to do with the risk factor of low and relatively low hours people flying a machine out of supervison, and the associated costs of (in particular) insurance to cover things that go wrong.

Based on the cost structure of an R44 you have to sell a lot of hours to cover the costs of insurance and the incremental cost of additional operation (unless maintenance is very low cost, i.e. you own the engineers/ engineer shop which some also SFH operations do).

[Chukkablade]

Different thing entirely Bravo. I work in an enviroment that functions on bulk purchase, and sorry mate, but it doesn't cross over here. Your not IMHO comparing apples with apples. I'll still use the car hire comparison, as it's a valid one.

Helicopter-Redeye, thanks, thats a little more like the answer I was looking for. It still doesn't do it for me, as the number of hours I have (using your low hours risk model) will not change my singular hourly purchase rate on a Helo as I put hours in my log book, but I see where your coming from. I'll still pay £x whether I have 150 hours or 1500 if I buy 1 or 2 at a time from the S.F.H. outfits I use.

One thing I will ask though, as from your answer it seems like you work for a school or hire outfit and are clued up: would you say £440 per hour is getting price gouged? I'd be keen to know your thoughts on that price.

[slim40]

I hear what you're saying redeye, but I'm a very low airtime heli pilot (75 hrs) but there's no discrimination against this when looking for SFH in my area (Cambs / Northants) although there is quite a price difference between different outfits.
I guess it comes down to the old supply and demand (Chukkas situation) chestnut and, it seems to me, whether you're in or very near a city. A free market economy is great, but it doesn't half p**s me off sometimes ;-)
Chukka- this'll (not) make your day, Helimagic in Truro, Cornwall charges £275 + VAT an hour for TRAINING on a 44, not sure what his SFH prices are...

Slim

[Chukkablade]

Slim, I have some good mates down that way, and you know what, they might be getting the pleasure of my company before to long at those prices:ok: Cheers. Assuming my liver could take the hit that is, but nevermind:}

[helicopter-redeye]

More data first:

1. How many hours does the machine have on it (hrs)

2. When is the 12 yr point? (date)

3. How many hours a year does it fly? (hrs)

4. Who owns it (sch/ pvt owner leasing)

5. Supply side - how many within 100 miles (#)

6. Demand side - how many hrs SFH sold per year (hrs)

7. Demand side - how many hrs TGN sold per year (hrs)

8. Exact type (type details)

9. Fit (7 hole/ 9 hole/ much avionics etc)

h-r;)

[Chukkablade]

1. How many hours does the machine have on it (hrs) Not much, 6/700

2. When is the 12 yr point? (date) Unsure, is a 2 year old machine

3. How many hours a year does it fly? (hrs) Lots. Never out the air.

4. Who owns it (sch/ pvt owner leasing) School

5. Supply side - how many within 100 miles (#) 3

6. Demand side - how many hrs SFH sold per year (hrs) Lots

7. Demand side - how many hrs TGN sold per year (hrs) Again, lots. Machine is training every weekend.

8. Exact type (type details) R44 Raven, built 2005

9. Fit (7 hole/ 9 hole/ much avionics etc) 9 hole with Skymap

Hope this lot helps!

[slim40]

Chukka- if you're venturing that far south, drop in for a brew or 'wee dram' on your way down. Better pack a hanky too in case you get a nosebleed ;-)

Slim

[Chukkablade]

Bet on it fella, and if you fancy some airtime, let me know. I can bored up there on my own:ok:

[muffin]

There seems to be a huge variation across the country on R44 rates, whereas for the R22 the differences are much less. When I was looking everywhere for good R22 SFH rates I could not find much difference, and I also tried for ages for a share without success. I did manage to get a block rate for the whole of one winter by paying up front for a school's "spare" one, but the result was that I got so used to having it around that I wound up buying my own.

[helicopter-redeye]

So it's flying about 300hrs/ year. It's a std machine with little in the way of avionics.

It's earning profit after costs of between £50 and £63 per flying hour for SFH after accounting for the insurance loading for SFH and training (which is quite high). BUT not taking into account any risk based costs for damage/ fried engine/ etc

At 300/ yr it would have a TBO of ~7 years so quite good utilisation. The owners are to be congratulated on establishing a viable business rather than a charity.

£380 - £410 (all up incl VAT/ 1 landing/ fuel/ insurance/ circuits at base) is a reasonable commercial cost to deliver not excessive profits on that type of airframe.

I heard a view from an FI I have known for some time a couple of years ago that the SFH market could disappear by the time we host the London olympics due principally to insurance costs. Most R44's now reside in people's gardens and fields leaving few airframes for SFH hence D > S price goes up. The cost of insurance is sucked down where it is flown only by limited higher hours pilots and you need to sell a lot of hours to make any profit.

h-r

Added later - local 100LL prices will also affect rates. Some locations charge a lot so this is passed on in pricing - some schools control their own supply from the wholesaler so have more price control.

[Chukkablade]

Redeye, thats fantastic friend, thank you:D I was doing some digging in the interim between posts, and called a friend or two who also fly that machine - 300 hours P.A. is turning into a rather conservative estimate.

Your right, for all I think the school owners are nice chaps, as businessmen, applause indeed.

With the ease and affordability of aviation finance now, I can see why so many folk go for the purchase option. Sad if the S.F.H. option starts to dissapear though.

[manfromuncle]

Very few PPL holders actually SFH anyway. Most get their licence, stick it in a drawer and never fly again. As a PPL holder, even if you just do enough flying to stay 'current' for SFH - ie 1 hr per month. That's a £300 a month 'hobby', and all you do is go round the local area. The only way to get anything out of flying is to do is as a career, or be rich enough to buy your own heli, or rich enough to spend a wad each year on worthwhile SFH trips. It all comes down to cost, and helicopter flying is damn expensive in the UK. It's a rich man's plaything, like boats and horses.

[Bravo73]

Different thing entirely Bravo. I work in an enviroment that functions on bulk purchase, and sorry mate, but it doesn't cross over here. Your not IMHO comparing apples with apples. I'll still use the car hire comparison, as it's a valid one.


It totally stacks up, I'm afraid. You pay more, you get a better price. Simple inducement to extract more money from customers. It also really, really helps with cashflow.

If you want to persist with your car hire analogy, then I bring to you attention 'loyalty cards'. Rent lots of cars and you get either better prices (for being a loyal customer) or other incentives.





And are you sure that we are 'mates'? :hmm:

[Chukkablade]

No problem Bravo, I shall refrain from using any pleasantries towards you from now on if you so prefer. As for the subject, shall we shall just agree to differ?

Thanks again to Redeye and others for the constructive input, and apologies to the O.P. for the thread creep.

[Pandalet]

Just to add to the general info, both operators I hire R44s from in the SE charge approx £380/hr including VAT.

[bladewashout]

I'm paying £347 inc VAT, but you pay based on a calculated engine time, which seems to involve adding 0.1 to the Datcon for each flight. Makes it like an R22 whiere the Datcon runs on the engine time rather than collective.

If you have short flights, that makes it a bit more expensive (you pay 0.6 hrs for 0.5 hrs in the air), but for a 1 hour flight in the air, you'd be paying £382.

BW

[Chukkablade]

Thanks Blade'. Its the same on the meter with the places I fly.

I get back into the Uk from Spain (here with work, not holiday) in Novemeber. I think I'll start looking for a machine in the New Year.

[Hairyplane]

I bought my Raven 2 new in late 05 and it now has 300hrs on it. I wouldnt dream of hiring it out. As we all know, it is possible to cause a load of damage by overspeeding etc. If you do it yourself you know all about it. If somebody else does it, they ain't likely to tell you - you'll just wonder why they dont hire it any more.....

Take into account the extra insurance, inevitable maintenance increase and those annoying scratches and dings that were 'all there when I took it over' - add to it the premium price that I can expect for a pristine, cossetted, hangared 100% privately operated machine when I trade it for a new one in 2 years time and I just dont think it would be worth it.

The majority of private owners tend to share this view I guess. My machine was bought with hard earned money. Unlike a 'kick the tyres, light the fires, bang it on, dont tell anyone and forget the bugs coz they were on it before, clean the screen with an old gritty rag flying school fixed wing knacker' - an unreported event in the heli can either kill you or manifest itself down the road in the form of MR bearings, an engine that suddenly seems down on power and burning more oil etc etc.

The peace of mind when you open your own hangar door and know that you flew it last - incalculable.

Just off to get it out now.

Catcha

HP

[Mikeb]

Hairyplane

Good point, I owned a 44 and did leaseback threw my local school. Suffered one over speed £17K, before they eventually crashed it. Flying schools don't care if the pilot they hire to has 6hrs on type like the guy who crashed mine, they just want the profit from that .5 hire!

The main reason most of us do leaseback is to try and bring down the hourly rate it costs to operate the machine. If I buy another 44 I’ll keep it for private use or just a select few pilots I trust.

[scooter boy]

"The peace of mind when you open your own hangar door and know that you flew it last - incalculable."

So true, Hairy. Why do you plan to change it at four years old?

SB

[Hairyplane]

A good question.

With linear depreciation (ish?) I dont believe I will lose too much money in changing at 4 yrs/ 800 hours.

Balancing this with the likelihood IMO that it is unlikely to all go the 2400 hrs without major expense I do believe its a good idea.

Who knows, but what price peace of mind?! These things are constantly being improved.

Anyway, like a new car, its a feelgood thing. No pockets in a shroud. The last one was blue - I'll have a red'un etc.

Catcha

HP

[scooter boy]

Hairy,

My Clipper II is 3.5 years old and has 469.2 hrs.
I think I'll hang on to it at least 3-4 more years before changing it - everything works well and it seems a good 'un etc...
I say this having just had 2 months of downtime because of an engine problem in my equally well pampered Mooney which is newer and thankfully covered under warranty.

Knowing my luck when I decide to change machine we will be at $1=£1!!

I would change the clipper at 4-5 years but I have other commercial projects on the go at present (ones which will make me money rather than costing money as well as improving my quality of life) which require reinvestment of most of my current income. Anyway I have spent enough on aircraft for this decade.

All the best,

SB

[mjg315q]

Hi, I'm in your home region and am just going through my PPL etc (probably dealing with one of the same 3 outfits you refer to). I'm also working out the best way to continue this 'hobby' once qualified etc.

Would be great if you could PM me, I'm interested in how you get on and or maybe setting up a share group to split costs etc.