Condolences threads

[moggiee]

Moved from another thread.

Now I know I'm going to take some hits here but I'm saying it anyway, partly because I want to get it off my chests and partly because I hope that it will stimulate discussion - so here goes:

Is it just me or are some of the condolences threads on this forum turning into "cheesiest post" contests? Some of the comments being made are almost stomach churning with poetry being quoted, pictures of little children praying and, in many ways the worst, religious references which assume that the victim or their family are a) religious in the first place and b) Christian. In an increasingly secular and/or multi-faith society this is ever less the case.

When family or friends die, I don't want or need people to quote chunks of the bible at me or to send messages which tell me that God will make it all OK. For a start, I don't believe that there is a God and second, if there is he's doing a pretty poor job of it. I therefore find such religious "offerings" offensive and pointless - serving more to make the sender feel better than to actually help the recipient.

For example, when my mother-in-law died recently, the majority of family members found the condolences cards with religious messages to be distressing as none of us believe in God. "God" did not make it right, she is not "with the angels" etc etc etc. These messages actually made some of us angry because, if there is a God, he subjected my mother-in-law to 8 years of suffering with cancer and an untimely death at the age of just 61!

I an in no way diminishing the courage and sacrifice of our service personnel - I've had friends killed in these recent conflicts - rather I'm taking a swipe at the "Diana-itis" which seems to have crept into these threads of late.
Perhaps what I'm saying is think before you post - I know that I and all my family members (apart from the one who does believe in God) find such messages hurtful rather than helpful. Think - are the victim and their bereaved family Christian, Muslim, Jew, atheist, pagan etc? YOU may believe in your choice of deity and you may find such messages help YOU, but do they help the bereaved?

OK - vent your spleens now because I know I will have upset plenty of people.

(Edited to sort a couple of typos)

[Brian Dixon]

Moggiee,
you haven't upset me. You are entitled to have your own view on things and the fact that I happen to have a different viewpoint is the joy of living in a free society - a free society gifted to us by those who fought, and died, in the wars of this country.

If you are not related to the hero to whom the condolence thread is dedicated, then pay your respects and move on. Please don't tell the rest of us how to go about expressing our condolences. Indeed, one of those you single out for a 'special mention' lost his son one year ago in two days time. Perhaps a little more consideration on your part too?

I certainly don't wish to start an argument, but surely individuals deal with death in a very individual way. It is not up to others to tell them how they should express their feelings. What ever happened to tolerance and understanding?

Kind regards,
Brian

[moggiee]

Brian,

I hope I don't sound as if I'm trying to tell people what to say - I'm trying to get them to think before they say it. At no time is it my intention to belittle the loss and suffering involved - as I say, I have lost friends in recent conflicts and in peacetime flying accidents

My wife was quite badly upset by the religious tone of most of the condolences messages that she received after the death of her mother - as was my father-in-law. Given that (as you say) "individuals deal with death differently", is it right for Christians to smother the message of condolence with Christian imagery or rhetoric when the recipient is NOT a Christian? I would never dream of sending a condolences card featuring a picture of Jesus to a Sikh, Hindu or Muslim.

Quite right that I should pay my respects and move on - this is why this is a separate thread from those condolences threads.

Regards

Moggiee

[Tourist]

I'm with moggie 100%.
I have been thinking the same thing, but wasn't brave enough to start the thread.

[pr00ne]

moggiee,

A very sensitively worded post, I too agree 100%

I am sure you will be the subject of some pretty apalling rants over this but I am also sure that you are in the majority.

Having lost aircrew mates when I was in and since, I simply do not recognise the sentiments oft displayed here as being of the same Air Force.

[Jackonicko]

I thought it was just me.

There's nothing wrong with expressing condolences and support, but surely it can be done without some of the over-emotive gushing, poetry spouting and emotional diahorrea we've started to see?

Or is it just a symptom of the creeping 'emotionalisation' of wider society, in which we festoon the roadsides with posies after accidents and heap flowers on the makeshift shrines that spring up at the scenes of tragedies, crying and emoting about people we didn't know?

[vecvechookattack]

Totally concur...although you have to be very careful where mourning is concerned. Balance things with the needs of the family to grieve and for workmates to raise a glass and then get on with what we do.

When its my turn can you just arrange for the bar to be opened (on my mess number) free beer all round, everyone pissed and saying "what a top bloke Pete was" ....

and then get back to work the next morning with massive hangovers and let that be the end of it.

[BEagle]

"Bodger Lead from Four"
"Go ahead"
"Two's just speared in"
"Bugger. Bodger, renumber!"
"Bodger Two"
"Three"
"Bodger, follow me for tailchase......GO!"


OK - maybe we've come a long way since then, but I understand where moggiee and pr00ne are coming from.

And please, PLEASE no more b***y 'High Flight' on PPRuNE!

[Romeo Oscar Golf]

Agreed. Rather too much "Diana hysteria" creeping into the show of condolences I feel.
I, too, have lost Christian, Jewish and Muslim mates and I'm certain that all of them would rather be remembered at a bacon butty and beer bash rather than receiving insincere, or inappropriate, references to God.
When my wife died (unexpectedly young) some of the most moving tributes came from my Muslim friends who attended the church service in her memory.
I was a Christian, and although confused by the fact that God "moves in a mysterious way" remain one!
I still believe that much of the public showing of grief, particularly to someone they did not know, is so much over the top that it becomes cheap and tacky.

[Al R]

Jesus Christ, I've seen it all now.

I don't care about Diana, and if I don't know the man, I'll keep quiet. But if he's from my Corps, my sqn, if I knew him or if I respected the hell out of him, I'll remember him as I damned well like. And I won't be told otherwise. Jesus Christ. If its not bad enough that my gym has 3 No Smoking signs on the door, now some snotrag is telling me how to grieve. I suppose you'd give unwanted Xmas presents back or red pen badly spelt thank you letters from children? God, have you got nothing else better to do?

We can all cringe at other's posts here.. whether they're thoughts of Sharkey Ward, fitness tests, an aircraft or a unit. But a messageboard is about a Point of View and self expression, and thats subjective. Just as I respect the few who seek to dictate how the remainder of us remember those we knew, or respected, so must they respect how some of us do the same. This isn't a pissing contest, I've done far too much grieving and crying and had far too many sleepless nights and every time we lose a man I get upset as hell, so I'll express myself just as I f#cking well like and if you don't like it, you can f#ck off too. You obviously have far too much time on your small minded hands.

Message ends.

EDITED FOR TASTE.

[Romeo Oscar Golf]

Al R
I don't think anyone is telling you how to grieve. Thank goodness you have the balls to say what you feel...it does help. The bitch is more about the "hangers on" whose public display of grief to somebody they did not know and have never met is not always welcomed and often inappropriate.
However I would never wish to stop them, simply ask that what they say and do is rational.

[Cpl Plod]

Al R,
Another balanced post from you.
I read often but post (very) infrequently, but after seeing your 2nd to last line, I had to reply
W@NKER

Edited to add.
My sentiment remains, but at least you had the decency to delete the offending sentence:mad:

[Al R]

I did take that out before I read what you posted, it was a line too far, I accept that. But it doesn't make me a ******, but it sums up the polarised thoughts. If someone sent ME a card when I was grieving, I wouldn't care what religion they were.. the fact that they were thinking of me woulf be enough. Muslim, Christian, whatever.. isn't division through religion cause of enough problems today? Christ, what happened to compassion and empathy? If someone asks me how I am, I don't ask them first what religion they are!!

You don't know me, just as I don't know you. But that coming from a Cpl Plod won't cause me too much grief. ;)

[Al R]

Al R
I don't think anyone is telling you how to grieve. Thank goodness you have the balls to say what you feel...it does help. The bitch is more about the "hangers on" whose public display of grief to somebody they did not know and have never met is not always welcomed and often inappropriate.
However I would never wish to stop them, simply ask that what they say and do is rational.


But are we not cut from the same cloth.. have we not got onboard the same sweaty and smelly C130's.. have we not grumbled in gunsheds about the same things as these people, have we not drunk enough of the same ****ty mess beer? What more do we have to do to care for them, as we do our own?

Grief isn't rational, I feel for these guys a damned site more than I do the victims of Potters Bar, even though.. yes, I've travelled on trains and yes, I've grumbled about British Rail. We have an intangible link, and for someone to tell me HERE of all places that I should show grief iaw QR xyz is crap. Again, have they nothing better to do?? I'm stumped. I am almost effervescent with anger at their stupidity and insensitivity.

I may have been imbued with a different doctrine, but I know that you die for your mates and they die for you.. none of this Queen and Country stuff. With Chris, although I never knew him, I wore the same flash as him, with intense pride and loyalty, and I know what he will have gone through before the event. He could have been me, or anyone of those of us who joined up 25 years before. He was dealt a bum hand, but he has done more than ANYTHING anyone from Torpy downwards has done here (who can't even be arsed to say something on the MoD website by the way).. he has lost his life in the service of the Royal f#cking Air Force. And if the small minded amongst us can't even allow that to pass without inferring some kind of rules about how we personally express ourselves, then its a sad day indeed, and you're certainly not part of what I emotionally and mentally hitched aboard.

This has nothing to do with casual observers.. I have that link with him, and at least in the RAF Regiment, we are the same band of brothers, end of story. If someone else can't relate to that, its not my problem, and I certainly don't think that there are any grounds for sniping because of it. And the fact that I have to articulate that, or defend it, is almost obscene.

[jayteeto]

This discussion has been done before. The poems and all that guff make me sick, but its a free world as far as I last knew.
If you know someone, fair enough, but random cheesy grieving is a bit poor form really. Why not just do a short message of sympathy if you really feel the need to post??
If Jayteeto ever bites the dust, please feel free to use the time to stop typing the message and down a few Tequila Slammers instead. I reckon that a typical 'High Flight' post could be substituted for at least 5 slammers. Even a cut and paste would allow 2 shots!!

[Cpl Plod]

it was a line too far, I accept that.

We agree then.

But it doesn't make me a ******,

We will have to agree to disagree about that one.

You are correct that this is a place where any of us should be able to present any point of view we wish. However there should be a line and in my view you crossed that line with a crass comment.

Branch or trade makes no difference to me.

You seem sure we've not met, never caught then:cool:

[Al R]

Al R,
Another balanced post from you.
I read often but post (very) infrequently, but after seeing your 2nd to last line, I had to reply
W@NKER

Edited to add.
My sentiment remains, but at least you had the decency to delete the offending sentence:mad:

Yup, as does mine. I've aaah, checked my schedule and sorry, but I can't see too many hours sleep lost tonight.

[Al R]

Quote:
it was a line too far, I accept that.
We agree then.

Quote:
But it doesn't make me a ******,
We will have to agree to disagree about that one.

You are correct that this is a place where any of us should be able to present any point of view we wish. However there should be a line and in my view you crossed that line with a crass comment.

Branch or trade makes no difference to me.

You seem sure we've not met, never caught then:cool:



However many times I was caught, trust me.. it wasn't half as many as the times I wasn't. :ok:

And I removed it not because I suddenly decided I didn't agree with it, but out of respect. Something which a few more people around here need to learn.

[Tigs2]

moggiee
Well thanks for listening and starting this on a new thread instead of this discussion being on the young Gunners thread. I understand all of you who think comments may be too much, but please also understand Al R. You are entitled to your thoughts but so are others. Many people relate to death in different ways, many people relate these young lads to 'that could be my son', 'is my son next etc'.

moggiee i am sorry that you and your wife found condolences for your mother so upsetting. You may not believe in God, but what those people were saying to you was that through their own faith for a moment in time, they were reflecting on your mum, her life etc. In their prayers they were remembering her.

That is all people are doing on the condolences threads. Cut them some slack, you do not know the connections, you certainly don't know if they are hangers on, you don't know if they lost a son themselves 3 years ago. Not all people are as angry as you were when recieving condolences, but I think that has something to do with your immense loss and your grieving process. When your mum dies the overwhelming question is WHY?? and God seems non existant or either a wicked uncaring being. I am not into religion by the way, but for others it focuses their minds on thinking good on the behalf of those who have lost, and that is where the comfort should be.

[Lafyar Cokov]

I, too, have lost Christian, Jewish and Muslim mates and I'm certain that all of them would rather be remembered at a bacon butty and beer bash rather than receiving insincere, or inappropriate, references to God.

Would Muslims and Jews really appreciate the bacon butties??? :}

[Grimweasel]

Hear! Hear!
I have to concur. Just a simple message from friends and affected personnel is all that's needed. The gushy, slushy cr@p is best resigned to the condolance book at the funeral if needed not on a thread for military professionals!
Well done all for having the minerals to agree too.
:ok:

[Biggus]

I think moggiee was referring to condolence threads in general, rather than the specific one relating to the Gunner. He was trying to partly make a point about the 'Diana-ist' approach to grief, as adopted by people who have no personal knowledge or connection with the person in question.

He has a point to some extent, at least in my opinion.

By the way, what is it about 'rocks' or ex 'rocks' (Al R and Airborne Aircrew I think) that means they are usually insulting people by their second comment on a thread. Between the two of you, you managed to get a previuos thread closed.

Standing by to be insulted. When I grieve, Wednesday was my last involvement with a military funeral, I usually find I am sad, rather than angry.

[Romeo Oscar Golf]

Would Muslims and Jews really appreciate the bacon butties??? :}


The mates I am referring to..... most definately. I chose the words carefully and with feeling.

[Al R]

Biggus,

I'll give you a few days to check and report back about how many threads I've been 'insulting' in. Its fair to say too, that you don't know of my involvement in the 'previous' thread either. And yes, I.. we .. might be different. Not better, just different. We aren't too clever sure.. but we have an esprit de corps and a bond that is articulated in a way you might not understand.

At the risk of sounding like Frank Slade at the end (you either know it or you don't), you should learn to be angry a little more. You might look at things differently.

By the way, 'the Gunner' had a name. Christopher Bridge.

[Tigs2]

Al R
I think you will find most of us use the term 'Gunner' as a mark of respect and achievement as opposed to calling him SAC or LAC. It is to recognise he was a member of the regiment.

[Al R]

My post was to Biggus, who clearly didn't have your sentiments in mind. Chris had a name.. given to him. With the greatest of respect, please take a second or two to use it.

Cheers.

[groveaviation]

moggiee,

brave words. Completely agree.

[Airborne Aircrew]

I'm going to stand with A|R here... Not just because I'm ex_Regiment myself but because I believe he is right in what he is saying.

I'll start by stating that I am an athiest...

As such, I have to agree with the OP... Some of the stuff put up in the condolences threads can be a little hard to stomach, for me. For some, I'm sure, it's appropriate and right, (not all atheists believe that theism is an evil to be ridiculed and rejected - I actually think that "reasonable" religious beliefs are extremely beneficial to both the society and the individuals within it).

Where A|R is quite right is that no-one, but no-one, can tell him or me how to grieve and what is an appropriate display of said grief. The condolence thread is not a work of art that is there to please all who see it. It is a place where people can place their personal message to the departed. In most cases the family will be utterly unaware of the thread and therefore, whether they are the "target" of the message or not they will, most probably, never see it.

Moggiiie:

I agree with your feelings about what is put in the threads. I too question whether the Britain I once knew has disappeared forever as a result of some of the displays. But your/our job is not to read the individual posts and judge them. It is to pay our respects in a way we feel appropriate and leave.

So... I agree... That I agree... but I disagree... If that makes sense... It does to me...

[moggiee]

My intention was to stimulate discussion about a topic that (as can be seen from the replies here) many were wary about broaching.

Please note everyone that I intend no lack of respect to anyone (living or dead) nor do I wish to challenge anyone's religious beliefs (other than to say I do not hold any myself).

I did wish to make a couple of points, namely that these condolence threads have become rather gushy and cheesy and also that there is an assumption that religious comments provide comfort, when in fact the effect may be quite the reverse (as I have experienced).

I am surprised, and relieved, to find that I am not on my own here.

Al R and Cpl Plod. I am not telling you how to grieve, just saying that (in my opinion) the wailing and gnashing of teeth is starting to get out of hand. The fact that today is the 10th anniversary of the death of the "Peoples' Princess" is purely coincidental but oddly serendipitous.

[Two's in]

The real potential for offending everybody is where heartfelt posts of condolencies are interspersed with random opinions of how the deceased might possibly have contributed to his/her own demise via some random act of omission. As I believe was started with the C-130 thread, having a condolencies thread running separately from the second guessers club added a modicum of decorum and avoided too much obvious insensitivity. By the way, for anyone who genuinely doesn't know, Jetblast is a far more appropriate forum for offering whimsical suggestions regarding the presumed marital status of your fellow pruners parents.

[vecvechookattack]

I've done far too much grieving and crying and had far too many sleepless nights and every time we lose a man I get upset as hell,

Crikey - Are you a Medic..? Or maybe you are in the band.

[Airborne Aircrew]

I did wish to make a couple of points, namely that these condolence threads have become rather gushy and cheesy and also that there is an assumption that religious comments provide comfort, when in fact the effect may be quite the reverse (as I have experienced).I understand what you are saying entirely and I don't believe that anyone believes that you meant any disrespect to the living or the dead. As I stated, I agree with your feeling about the content some of the messages. However, as I said a minute ago, your focus with regard to the threads should not be to read them and judge their content but rather to participate if you feel you need to and withdraw. In the same way you seem offended by the "gushing" you need to understand that those who "gush" may be equally offended by your, potentially "throw-away 'RIP Soldier' " comment. (Not to imply that I'm quoting you there).

It's a two way street... In the end it's not a place that anyone should be questioning the display or sentiments of others...

[moggiee]

Whilst you lot have been puffing your over inflated chests out at each other, you have managed to get more replies in this thread than the actual RAF Regiment Gunner condolences thread mentioned. Well done.
Given that there are multiple posts by several forum members on this thread, you'll find that more people have made comment on the condolences thread (myself included) whereas this one has more comments from fewer people.

It does seem to indicate that I have touched a nerve or struck a chord (depending upon your point of view).

[Airborne Aircrew]

Biggus:

By the way, what is it about 'rocks' or ex 'rocks' (Al R and Airborne Aircrew I think) that means they are usually insulting people by their second comment on a thread.Crikey - Are you a Medic..? Or maybe you are in the band.Is it possible that it's condescending and ill advised comments like these that make Rocks respond with, errr... less than appreciative comments.

The funny thing is you chaps employ us to not stand down. You employ us to aggressively defend you. But then, when we exercise that aggressive nature as a result of your sniping you call foul.

Learn to live with that which you have spawned or learn to defend yourselves on your own... It's really not that difficult... Hell, even us Rocks can see it...

[Romeo Oscar Golf]

For goodness sake guys, get a grip. I did not know Chris, nor did I know the many others who have been killed whilst on active service in the many engagements the military have been invoved in. I do not know the thousands who lost their lives in WW2, nor the thousands in WW1. I stopped counting the number of mates I actually knew, who didn't make it beyond their early 20's, when I run out of fingers and toes to count them- and I had not even got to my first OCU. The fact is that I was, and still consider myself, part of the military family, and as such IT GOES WITHOUT SAYING, that my heart bleeds for every casualty we suffer. I do not feel the need to spell it out each time. However, for those who do feel the need, good on you.
And your point 1.4G?

[Al R]

Vecve said;

Crikey - Are you a Medic..? Or maybe you are in the band.

What do you have against RAF medics? I assume that was meant to be a snipe? They do ok in my book.. are there any other trades you'd like to have a pop at?

[moggiee]

Keep it on topic please, chaps - all fighting to be conducted in private.

[groveaviation]

Agreed, people have their own way of expressing regret (not sure how much you can genuinely grieve for someone you never met). I'm an old fart, so I'm not that comfortable with condolences threads (not sure what they achieve). But then maybe this is just a PPRUNE/Internet thing and doubt it has any affect on the individuals actually involved in live ops(hope not anyway).

[Al R]

Mogiee said something about Diana, respecting others (especially him) and other people being different to him and how the grieving is getting out of hand.


My intention was to stimulate discussion about..

.. the wailing and gnashing of teeth is starting to get out of hand. The fact that today is the 10th anniversary of the death of the "Peoples' Princess" is purely coincidental but oddly serendipitous.


So. Before you send one of your special (excuse me) holier than thou, non denominational condolences, do you determine whether the recipient is religious or not, and do you send a nice picture of God on a card as a result?

You haven't? You don't? You wouldn't? Quelle suprise. :rolleyes:

[Al R]

AA said;

In the end it's not a place that anyone should be questioning the display or sentiments of others...

Well said, and my last word in this awful thread.

Cheers AA.

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

"Hell, even us Rocks can see it... "

You are not a Rock you're a civilian :rolleyes:

[Airborne Aircrew]

You are not a Rock you're a civilian

There he is... Mr. "I have nothing whatsoever to contribute to any conversation but I'll come in to abuse the Rocks, (or ex _Rocks), because I can do it now I hide behind my monitor."

Seldom: Just five posts ago the OP said:-

Keep it on topic please, chaps - all fighting to be conducted in private.

You show yourself for who you really are by your respect for his wishes. Trot along, I'll come down to the creche when I have time...

Out to you...

[moggiee]

Al R - what I do is pick a non-religious condolence message as a play safe option. I express genuine sympathy, in a non-religious way. The old adage is to avoid discussing sex, religion or politics if you are not sure of the views of your correspondent, thereby avoiding causing offence.

By avoiding the subject of religion in the first place I avoid the risk of giving offence - this is the polite thing to do (as you should always tread carefully with regards to the subject). For me to send a religious card/message would be hypocritical as I do not believe in any deity - and if the recipient knows me then they will know that to be the case and as such a religious message would perhaps indicate a lack of sincerity on my part (a bit like the American "have a nice day"). If the recipient then reads some sort of spiritual message into the words that is their choice.

My brother in law and his wife are born again Christians and tend towards the biblical on birthdays, condolences and (perhaps unavoidably) Christmas. I accept that it's important for them to do this because of their faith and that they mean nothing but the best by it. In return, they understand that scripture means absolutely nothing to me and that they are never going to make a Christian out of me! However, in this case we all know each other well enough to avoid giving/taking offence (although at first it DID irk me more than a little).

For the record, I do attend church for weddings, funerals and baptisms - out of respect for the person being buried/married/baptised, not because I believe in God or want people to think that I believe in Him (you'll note the capitialisation of God and Him out of respect for the beliefs of Christians). I do not, however, sing hymns or say prayers as again that would be hypocritical and would therefore insult other peoples' beliefs. Given my choice, I would never set foot in church again in my life (or death!) but do so out of respect for the celebrants at these services. I believe in PEOPLE not God(s) and thus direct my thoughts towards them.

I hope that answers your question.

(Edited for improved clarity - I hope!)

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

You said ""Hell, even us Rocks can see it... "

I said "You are not a Rock you're a civilian "

I thought I was just making you aware of the inaccuracy of your post but if you feel the need to self flagellate in that manner crack on chap :rolleyes:

[Al R]

Moggiee said;


Al R - what I do is pick a religious condolence message as a play safe option. I express genuine sympathy, in a religious way. The old adage of avoiding sex, religion or politics if you are not sure of the views of your correspondent, thereby avoiding causing offence, has to be approached with care and aforethought.

By relying on the subject of religion in the first place I avoid the risk of giving offence - this is the polite thing to do (as you should always tread carefully with regards to the subject). For me, not to send a non religious card/message would be hypocritical as I believe in deity - and if the recipient knows me then they will know that to be the case and as such a non religious message would perhaps indicate a lack of sincerity on my part (a bit like the American "have a nice day"). If the recipient then can’t read some sort of spiritual message into the words that is their choice.

My brother in law and his wife are not yet born again Christians and tend away from the biblical on birthdays, condolences and (perhaps avoidably) Christmas. I accept that it's not important for them to do this because of their lack of faith faith and that they mean nothing but the best by it. In return, they don't yet understand that scripture means absolutely everything to me and that they are never going to make a non believerout of me! However, in this case we all know each other well enough to avoid giving/taking offence (although at first it DID irk me more than a little).

For the record, I do not normally attend church for weddings, funerals and baptisms – but out of respect for the person being buried/married/baptized, I do. I sing hymns and say prayers as not to do so would be hypocritical and would therefore insult other peoples' beliefs. Given my choice, I would always set foot in a church but would not so out of respect for the non believers at these services. I believe in God, not people and thus direct my thoughts towards him.

I hope that answers your question.

Yes the edit for clarity does help, I hope it does with you too. You know, I never thought that there could be 2 sides to the coin. There is room for everyone and their way of expression, is there not, without being judgemental?

"Have a nice day"

[moggiee]

Al R - editing my quote in your post is pointless, childish and plain rude. Now might be a good time to do a little growing up.

You may not agree with me - that's fine, that's the way that the human race works and ultimately such individuality is good for us. However, your infantile twisting of my words in your post is ignorant and offensive and shows a closed mind. Perhaps you should sit back and reflect upon how silly you are making yourself look.

You asked a question, I answered it (fully I believe). You may not like the answer but you know, sometimes that happens when you ask questions!

(Edit: last paragraph added)

[Al R]

Agreed.

And keep it on topic please chaps, - all fighting to be conducted in private.

[moggiee]

Think this one has run its course.
It probably has.

I must admit that I am surprised by the degree of support for my original post - I do believe that it was a worthwhile exercise.

[Al R]

BBC,

How true. Why can't we just keep things to ourselves eh? I'm not overly or overtly religious.. common sense dictates that the planet wasn't created in 7 days and that there is a missing link, and invariably it might be found in a 3 Wing 40/70 gunshed. But its 'faith' and in this world of ever increasingly being told what to do and what not to do, I'm sure that if I was grieving properly, I'd just be grateful that someone was emotionally at least, with me. I wouldn't try to diminish the value of their thought by filtering out those of the same ideoliogical bias as me.

Moggsters,

Without dragging this painful thread out any further, no one is denying you your faith in lack of faith. But your faith in the lack of faith surely can have no precedence over someone who does have faith. You bravely bite your lip and attend worship on certain occasions and when your family applies it, so is it not a little too much to suggest that you can accept people's condolences at face value when they too, might not be in accord with you? Perhaps people aren't as 'enlightened' as you, perhaps for various reasons, people express themselves in different ways.. but for gods sake, don't have a go at them for it, especially when all they might be about to do, is offer you comfort in the only way they know how.

I would accept that there is a world of difference between being almost hysterical 10 years ago when Diana died, between being mawkish and between muddling through with a set of badly thought out words, as on here. Someone has mentioned not wanting to see 'High Flight' again.. how awful and intolerant is that? How awful that someone couldn't just allow another the chance to express themselves as they know how. It might not be original, but so what?? The Henry V 'Band of Brothers' piece makes me well up just about every time I read it, because thats the person that I now am, I'm afraid. For me, it expresses my respect and feelings and what I feel about a fallen mate (whether or not I knew him) far better than buying a politically correct sympathies card or picking my way through a thesauraus in case I offend.

Whenever I read about Headley Court, or someone in there, like Ben, I feel the same way. I didn't care or ask the staff there what their religious pursuassion was.. I didn't vet them for suitability to as it turn out, offer me comfort or help me along. I was downgraded for about 6 years all in all and I needed as much help, care and yes, love as I could get. That need transcended any thought I might have about of how they might or might not, worship. They were first and foremost people, as was I, so perhaps we should judge people by who they are, and what they do for us, and not so much by what their philosophy on life is. We had our village Summer fete the other week. It was the first time I have ever seen children of so many faiths playing together. It was possibly, the first time that a few of the chilkdren had seen a little black boy and girl.. you know something? They gaped a bit, and got on with the serious act of playing. I'm sure there was a clutch of agnostic and atheist parents too, but strangely enough, no one seemed to mind. Kids can show us much.

Sure, its easy to be cynical and to show how you're at a higher plane by analysing with such incisive clarity how or why people care or express themselves as they do, and we all have our mawkish break point. But in this instance, keep it to yourself mate. If someone does show you love and sympathy when you need it, accept it gratefully. Don't do a critique on it, don't red pen it.. and don't get shirty about it, because there might come a time when you're going to have no one, and believe me, you won't care then where the care comes from. I get a nice tax free and index linked pension from Gordon. It means nothing. If it wasn't for some nasty religious people or some nasty atheists helping me, I wouldn't even be here. So try and see that sometimes people do what they do and what they say because they care, and not because they are trying to offend. And if they don't sit you down beforehand and ask you to fill in a questionare about how you might like to receive your condolences, why not cut them some slack.. they're just doing the best they can mate.

Finally, it has been politely suggested to me that although my deft and elegant manipulation of your words may have resulted in finely crafted prose, it might also be considered bad e-form unless one's manipulation is highlighted. I am happy to now do this and affirm that my only intent was to show you that indeed, there are 2 sides to every coin and you needn't be so evangelical in your approach. If in doing that, I came across as rather too scathing, then I apologise.

[Tigs2]

After going to several funerals of guys I know that recieved condolences on this site I found a distinct corrollation between the families. When chatting to them they all said that they had been comforted and amazed by the warm extent of feeling and comment made on the PPRuNe thread, which close friends had directed them to. Not one of them said 'I thought the poems were a bit much', 'I thought the comments were too gushing' or 'the comments were full of religious rubbish'. They all said words to the effect that 'they were touched by what had been said'. One man who had lost his son looked me in the eye, all choked up, and simply said, 'You Know ..tigs.. what has given me the most comfort is realising just how many friends my son had, all the comments from all the service people. .....'s mum and I have read them through 5 times, it means a lot to know he was so well liked'.
Nuff said really. Some comments may not be to the liking of everybody, but just be thankful you are simply having to endure another posting of 'High flight', rather than seeing it posted on a thread to offer condolences to one of you sons or daughters.

[Flatus Veteranus]

I am sure that this is a generation thing. You are either "AD"(after Diana) or "BD". If the latter, you would not dream splashing condolences about the demise of someone you had never met in a public forum. It smacks of exhibitionism. And if you did know the deceased well enough to want to intrude on his family's private grief, then why not take up pen and paper and address a letter to his CO for onward transmission if he thought fit. He would be aware of the emotional state of the next of kin. And it need not take much longer than posting on Prune.
Some chap earlier on thought that by posting here you would be communicating your respects to the deceased. Surely, if there is a life hereafter, you would not need a PC to divine the thoughts of the living?
IMHO the Mawkish Tendency in our society is getting quite out of hand. I thought the armed services would be the last bastions defending emotional continence and decent restraint. But it seems the cause is lost. And on a different but parallel topic we now seem to be under pressure to support the apointment of umpteen more assistant coroners to reduce the "backlog" of inquests on repatriated deceased service people. This is a new form of "outdoor relief" for lawyers who are totally unqualified to investigate any military casualty. In my day they would have been invited to go forth and multiply. In two world wars good men died in their hundreds of thousands without any form of inquiry - either military or civil - and their beloved had to come to terms with their grief (achieve "closure" in the current psychobabble) with only a form letter from the War Office. My poor old mother lost both her brothers in 1916 in the army and her first fiancé in the RFC in 1917. And yet she managed to get herself together enough to be a winner in the scramble for husbands in her generation in the 1920s. Can you inagine how long the Prune condolence threads would be (and how large the Corps of Assistant Coroners would be) if we had to suffer carnage again on the scale of 1914-18 (or Bomber Command 1939-45)?
I expect I shall be reviled for being a brutally insensitive and fascist thug descended from Ghengis Kahn. If so, I won't give a XXXX, because I have very quickly been losing empathy with this forum.
Well said, Moggie!

[groveaviation]

Completely agree, well said that man.

[sittingstress]

Yesterday afternoon I took a young holding Flying Officer and a fellow Rock to Tyne Cot cemetery at Passchendaele, and the Menin Gate at Ypres. We did not know any of the fallen either buried there or remembered on the walls yet we all came away with a sense of loss.

As I drove us back to Calais I received a text message from my wife telling me my 16 year old daughter had just been whipped into hospital after a routine eye test in Boots had shown something on her retinas that needed a Dr’s opinion. By the time I got to the hospital a CAT scan had revealed something quite nasty is going on in her brain. She was moved pretty swiftly to a hospital that specialises in neurological matters. My daughter waved goodbye to me on Thursday afternoon and is now fighting a condition that is affecting her sight, hearing and sensation. She is due to start college on Monday and I leave the RAF Regt next Tuesday to begin a new career in the Met Police the same day.

As the news filters through our small unit I have been receiving messages of support and offers of help from all sorts of people. Some are from individuals I neither know particularly well, nor am not normally on the best speaking terms with.

My point; I do not compare my situation to any parent of someone who has been killed serving their country but I am deeply grateful for every single text, phone call and knock at the door from people expressing their feelings. Some are gushing, some are blunt and some are delivered in a manner that is definitely not my style but all mean a lot to me.

How does this relate to this thread? Let people express things their own way, you may not agree with the method or style of delivery but the message will be sincere and should be seen for what the bearer intends.

Regards

ss

PS I leave the Regiment on 11 Sep 07 after 24 years service, but I will always be a Rock – it is a Gunner thing.

[Al R]

Good luck for the future ss, and for your little girl too.

Per Ardua.

[moggiee]

Good luck for the future ss, and for your little girl too.

Per Ardua.
Here, here.

Best of luck to you all.

[Flatus Veteranus]

Sittingstress

If I had learned of your daughter's illness through the media, I would have hesitated, as a total stranger to your family, to post a message of sympathy on an open website. Many of my generation, in your position, would regard it as an impertinence.

However, since you have chosen to bring her terrible predicament to the notice of the military aviation world (and the press) in this forum, I do offer her and your family my sincere best wishes for a safe recovery, and my prayers - in church this pm, and not via Bill Gates.

And the best of luck in the Met. I never did believe that "institutionally racist" rubbish!

[Tigs2]

Flatus


But as Sitting Stress has effectively said, you have learn't of his families misfortune on the Military forum, Just as you learn of the misfortunes of those families who loose loved ones in the sandpit. You now feel compelled to offer your thoughts in support. Again as SS says it all means a great deal. The moral of the story is, that if you feel compelled to offer words of sympathy to any family suffering misfortune, then do so. You will not recieve any judgemental thoughts from me however gushing you choose to make it, likewise neither I nor anyone else should recieve judgement or critisism from you. When I read of peoples misfortune in the press, I do not know them, and I let the thoughts pass. When I read of people on the Mil forum then if I choose to respond in any way that I feel will effectively reflect my thoughts for the family concerned, I should be able to do so without some of you lot getting all uppitty and starting the 'stiff upper lip brigade', 'pull yourself together man it's not British you know' attitude.


SittingStress
check pm's mate.

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

How strange, those who have just chastised the unwashed for "gushing" are now gushing themselves.............:rolleyes:

Or have I missed something:confused:

[MightyGem]

If Jayteeto ever bites the dust, please feel free to use the time
to take a few days off while we wait for a new aircraft!! :}

[Strictly Jungly]

Sitting Stress,

Sorry to hear about your news. Hope everything turns out positively. If you need to chat PM me.

One of the Petawawa 3.



I understand what the OP is saying and can agree with his sentiments Re: Cheese. As others have said grief is a very personal thing. Whilst I would never dictate on how or when others should grieve I do think some almost grieve "by proxy" as if it is the "done thing". If people want to spout poetry and that is their thing then fair enough......either way it still remains a sad and often tragic event irrespective to what people say afterwards.

SJ

[moggiee]

How strange, those who have just chastised the unwashed for "gushing" are now gushing themselves.............:rolleyes:
Or have I missed something:confused:
As the song goes "It ain't what you say, it's the way that you say it". I see no gushing, personally just good wishes - mercifully cheese-free, at that.

[Brian Abraham]

Don't believe in God huh?

It Came Upon Naval Aviation That On Moonless and Overcast Nights All Shall Become believers!!

The Gospel According to St. Fresnel of the Miraculous Lens

Chapter One, Versus One through Six

1. In the Beginning, God created the heavens, and the Aircraft Carrier, and the seas upon which to float it; and yet there was complete Darkness upon the face of the earth. And, as we traveled, there came to us, as a voice out of the darkness, an angel of the Lord, saying, "On centerline, on Glideslope, three quarters of a mile, call the ball." I reflected upon these words, for I was still yet engulfed in complete darkness. With deep feeling and doubt overwhelming my countenance, I glanceth towards my companion at my right hand and saith, "What seeth thou, trusted friend?", and there was a great silence. Gazing in a searching manner and seeing naught, I raised my voice saying, "Clara......."

2. And God spoke to me, and He said, "You're low....power". As the Lord saith, so shall it be, and I added power; and lo, the ball riseth up onto the bottom of the mirror. But it was a tainted red glow, and surely indicateth Satan's own influence. And God spoke to me again saying, "Power...Power.Power!!!!....fly the ball." And lo, the ball riseth up and off the top of the lens, and the great darkness was upon me.

3. And the voice of the Angel came to me again, saying, "When comfortable, twelve hundred feet, turn downwind." Whereupon I wandered in the darkness, without direction, for surely the ships radar was beset by demons! , and there was great confusion cast upon CATCC, and there was a great silence in which there was no comfort to be found. Even my tacan needle spinneth......and lo, there was chaos; my trusted companion weepeth quietly unto himself and from close behind I heard weeping and gnashing of teeth of our flock. There was a great turmoil within my cockpit for a multitude of serpents had crept therein.

4. And though we wandered, as if by Providence I found myself within that Holy Corridor, and at twelve hundred feet, among my brethren seeking refuge; and the voice of the Angel of the Lord came to me again, asking of me my needles, and I raised my voice saying, "Up and centered", and the voice answered, "Roger, fly your needles...." I reflected upon these words, and I raised my voice in prayer, for though my gyro indicateth it not so, surely my aircraft hath been turned upside down. Verily, as Beelzebub surely wrestled with me, a voice, that of my trusted companion, saith to me calmly, "Friend.....fly thy needles, and find comfort in the Lord." And lo, with deep trembling in my heart, I did, and He guideth me to centered glideslope and centerline, though I know not how it came to be.

5. And out of the great darkness, God spoke to me again saying, "Roger ball" for now I had faith. And though the ball began to rise at the in close position, my right hand was full of the Spirit, and it squeeketh off power and as in a great miracle my plane stoppeth upon the flight deck, for it hath caught the four wire which God in his infinite wisdom hath placed thirty feet further down the flight deck than the three wire.

6. And thus bathed in a golden radiance from above, our pilgrimage was at an end, and my spirit was truly reborn. And as I basked in the rapture, God spoketh to me one final time, and He saith, "Lights out on deck... ;)

Sittingstress, to yourself and family, God or not, I hope your path forward shines bright. :ok:

[Tigs2]

Brian

Gripping stuff!

Sittingstress has asked me to post a note on this thread thanking everyone for the messages and thoughts, he said 'It means a lot'. He is pretty tied up right now and unlikely to be back on here anytime soon, his daughters condition has been accurately diagnosed, and is such that Sittingstress and his family have put everything on hold whilst they focus on her wellbeing.

Tigs