Military hospitals, Gordo's reply.

[TurbineTooHot]

Just got the email from the PM petitions page with this link.

http://www.pm.gov.uk/output/Page12961.asp

Basically it says that what we have currently is great and ideal for the purpose and working perfectly.:ugh::ugh::ugh:

Really comes as no surprise.:(

[trap one]

Reason that there are so few is because they will manipulate the figures so that all out patients/minor ops are resoursed to local NHS hospitals. If they all went to central Mil Hospitals. i.e. Army North/Scotland RAF, Middle England, Navy South England. Then this would keep the hospital ticking over.
But a typical political response to a need by the troops. When will they learn?:mad:

[BEagle]

This was Grumpy Gordon's response:

The Government is committed to providing excellent medical care for the members of our armed forces. "Military hospitals" are no longer the best way to provide that care.

The numbers of our Servicemen and women who require hospital treatment are relatively small. On a typical day, there are barely enough military in-patients in the UK to fill two wards of a major NHS hospital, irrespective of where they live or work, or of the severity or type of illness or injury. To bring together all the military patients in that way would be medically wrong. It would also mean that many of these patients and their families would have to travel long distances unnecessarily, when they can receive the appropriate care closer to home.

We do, however, bring together in one place the majority of our military patients who are seriously injured overseas. Selly Oak NHS Hospital in Birmingham is now the primary reception hospital for military patients evacuated back to the UK from overseas, including casualties from Iraq and Afghanistan. That is because the hospital is nationally at the leading edge in the medical care of the complex and multiple injuries that our battle casualties typically sustain, and is well located to receive casualties flown in from overseas. Selly Oak provides a level and capacity of clinical care that our military hospitals simply could not.

As the Chief of the General Staff, General Sir Richard Dannatt, said in a BBC interview in March 2007:

"There is nowhere better in the country, nowhere more expert at polytrauma medicine, than that hospital in Selly Oak. That's why our people are there."

And we do fully accept the need for Service patients to continue to feel part of the military family. We have therefore created a Military Managed Ward within the main trauma and orthopaedic ward at Selly Oak. MOD and NHS authorities have altered the layout of the ward to produce a separate area for military patients whose condition allows them to be nursed together. A combined military and civilian team cares for these patients. The team includes military nursing managers and a military ward-master, with military nursing staff on duty on every shift.

Our operational casualties can also be treated in the other specialist units offered by NHS hospitals in Birmingham. Wherever practicable, military patients are allocated to one of the military consultants who work at Birmingham. By far the largest proportion of specialist care, however, is provided by NHS staff. This reflects the range of knowledge, skills and resources the NHS can and does offer our patients. Our current facilities at Selly Oak will become part of the Birmingham New Hospitals Project that is planned to start admitting patients to the finest healthcare facilities in Europe by 2010.

When our serious casualties are sufficiently recovered, many go on to the Defence Medical Rehabilitation Centre at Headley Court in Surrey, a world-class centre dedicated to military patients. Less serious cases may go on to one of MOD's 15 Regional Rehabilitation Units in the UK and Germany. These military units provide accessible, regionally-based assessment and treatment, including physiotherapy and group rehabilitation facilities. Hence once the crucial hospital phase is over, and patients have received the most appropriate clinical care, we provide rehabilitation for military patients in a wholly military environment.

The majority of the patients in the military hospitals that were phased out from the mid 1990s were actually civilians. Even so, military hospitals increasingly failed to offer the range and volume of cases that our military doctors, nurses and allied health professionals need, to remain at the leading edge of their professions. That is why, in addition to the Royal Centre for Defence Medicine in Birmingham, we created elsewhere in the UK, five MOD Hospital Units (MDHUs), all located within major NHS Trust hospitals, to provide experience and training for our military medical personnel. The NHS hospitals that host the MDHUs are also close to military population centres, and so can offer more "local" secondary care facilities for military patients living or working in the region.

The skills our medical staff can now gain and maintain in major NHS trauma hospitals are used in the arduous conditions of the front line and in our field hospitals, to save the lives of injured troops who would have died in similar circumstances only a decade ago.

The Defence Medical Services in the UK thus now work not in military hospitals, but in close partnership with the NHS, to deliver the treatment that our Servicemen and women deserve. Our medical personnel who deploy overseas are a mixture of Regulars and Reservists - with many of the latter themselves being NHS staff. And of course, NHS staff can provide the continuity of care when either Regular or Reserve personnel deploy from NHS facilities.

In summary, a partnership with the NHS is the best way of ensuring that Service patients continue to get the high standards of medical treatment they deserve. This partnership also plays an essential role in training and maintaining the competence of DMS uniformed staff, so that they can fulfil their primary operational role overseas. It is a partnership in which both the Defence Medical Services and the National Health Service are constantly striving to achieve the best care for our sick and injured personnel.

So that's OK then.........

[Tiger_mate]

A lot of words, when he actually means:

I hear what you say, but NO!!

[4fitter]

Whilst no fan of this government, the text copied by BEagle is factually correct and remarkably short of spin.

[vecvechookattack]

In summary, a partnership with the NHS is the best way of ensuring that Service patients continue to get the high standards of medical treatment they deserve

Couldn't agree more. GB gets my vote.

[Top Right]

While the nostalgic side of me likes the idea of dedicated military facilities, the breadth and extent of advanced medical care these days must be impractical to maintain and sustain in a purely military hospital. Given the choice, I would prefer to be sent to that part of Birmingham or other NHS locations where the specialists are at the forefront of their game, rather than be back in the Cold War times of being offered 2 paracetamol for a broken ankle (albeit that was a Stn duty medic not a hospital).

[tmmorris]

A lot of words, when he actually means:

I hear what you say, but NO!!

exactly like the government response to the other half-dozen petitions I signed, in fact.

What the f#ck is the point of the petitions site?

Tim

[LFFC]

An item in the Observer (http://www.guardian.co.uk/military/story/0,,2228230,00.html) today suggests that integrating military casualties into UK's civilian hospitals isn't such a good idea!!

The UK, the United States and Canada are facing growing fears over a drug-resistant 'superbug' being brought back by wounded soldiers from Afghanistan and Iraq that threatens to contaminate civilian hospitals.

[edwardspannerhands]

Just an idea, but couldn't they just ramp up things at TPMH at Akrotiri? Send the required medical specialists from all three services there instead of some NHS hospital, keep treatment 'in-house' so to speak, and the injured won't have to be medi-vac'd as far.

[LFFC]

.... with free flights and accommodation for family and friends to visit I suppose? :ugh:

[parabellum]

I read somewhere recently that an internet submitted petition isn't worth the bandwith it is typed upon.
For a petition to have any value at all it has to be signed by hand.

[The Helpful Stacker]

I read somewhere recently that an internet submitted petition isn't worth the bandwith it is typed upon.
For a petition to have any value at all it has to be signed by hand.

SSAFA might disagree with you on this, especially following the Headley Court campaign.

[Jackonicko]

The military hospitals were never 'purely military' - indeed they were kept full with dependants, retired personnel and local NHS patients. As such they eased the strain on local NHS facilities AS WELL AS PROVIDING THE FACILITIES FOR SERVING PERSONNEL THAT WE ALL WANT.

It really isn't f***ing rocket science, Gordon, you utter ****.

[Blacksheep]

I had personal experience of the hospitals at Halton and the BMH in Singapore. As military hospitals they were aimed directly at the specific needs of military personnel while providing care for the local communities. Indeed, my Malaysian Brother in Law was born in BMH Singapore.

The nursing staff were serving military personnel and the hospitals were run as military establishments. A soldier wounded in action in Borneo or on the Thai border would be casevac to BMH, receive initial treatment there and then be casevac back to a military hospital in UK. All along the line, those treating him would be fellow serving personnel who UNDERSTAND. The hospital staff in a civilian hospital may be able to provide appropriate medical care, but are completely unable to understand the personal situation of the soldier/sailor/airman. Military service is not an ordinary job, injuries sustained on the job are not the same as accidents (or trauma in the words of the medics) and serving personnel should be treated by serving personnel. The military hospitals treated the whole patient and were also able to provide for patients' families too, where the families of long term patients cpould be moved to MQs near to the hospital.

Gordon Brown, New Labour and all the huggy-fluff softies need their arses kicked. God, the supercilious twits make me angry. :ugh:

[k1rb5]

I'm sure there are good reasons for and against using the NHS. What doesn't help is that the NHS is so over stretched no-one can rely on being seen quickly for anything other than emergencies these days. This results in people having to pay to be seen privately to get anything done if they are in so much discomfort that they cannot see the waiting list out. I know from personal experience. There was a time when I thought being in the Forces was as good as having private medical insurance. I may have been correct then but, how wrong am I now?


How does it make financial sense to allow someone to be off sick for lets say 6 months costing the taxpayer, lets say around £20k (alot more for some of you) when some swift treatment privately could cost (lets say for the sake of argument)£5k, and he could be effective again inside a month or two costing between 9k and 12k (pay and treatment) and resulting in 4 or 5 months productive service?? After all, aren't we short of manpower and cash?? Should be a no-brainer, shouldn't it?? :ugh::ugh::ugh:

[Two's in]

Whilst no fan of this government, the text copied by BEagle is factually correct and remarkably short of spin.

4F, true; but the dour Jock simply answered the questions he wished he had been asked, not the ones he was actually asked. A well tried technique of a clueless 14 year old scholboy sitting a very hard test.

[modtinbasher]

My son used to interview asylum applicants. He developed a terrible chest and cough that lasted for ages. I pestered him to go to his GP and ask for a test for TB, which, as many will know, was virtually irradicated from this country years ago. Maybe some more 'mature' PPRuNe members will remember, as I do from my childhood, the isolation hospitals that were dotted around in those days!

The GP stated that such a test would not normally be given on request, however, when my son revealed what he did for a living, within the week he was tested! Luckily he was clear.

So, makes one think does it not? As we have a pretty open door now in the UK, I reckon we'll see a lot of the old afflictions and diseases returning in the not so distant future.

MTB

[NURSE]

a few inital points:

unfortunatley the system is designed for Doctors further education and training not providing care to service personell the doctors have to now be more rounded and have a wider experience so having military hospital does not give them the depth of experience to further their careers how many children and OAP's do we have serving in the armed forces.

[k1rb5]

indeed they were kept full with dependants, retired personnel and local NHS patients. As such they eased the strain on local NHS facilities AS WELL AS PROVIDING THE FACILITIES FOR SERVING PERSONNEL THAT WE ALL WANT.

Nurse. Only a few posts up. Wouldn't that fulfil the requirement?

[GreenKnight121]

What the f#ck is the point of the petitions site?

Tim


To try to diffuse and distract you lot, so you won't get up and organize your friends, family, and neighbors to vote the b@$turds out of office.

[NURSE]

as far as i remember this argument was put forward and rejected by the royal colleges. However most military hospitals near the end were filled with NHS patients anyway.
To be honest i don't think the argument stands up the current system was designed to train doctors and medical staff for ops they should therefore be in trauma centres around the UK not the district general hospitals most of the MDHU's are located in.
A few other solutions could work better re open the military hospital for nursing and professions allied to medicine and keep a strong link with the major hospitals and don't employ doctors as full time forces have them as TA/RNR/RAFR/Aux and employ them on an FTRS basis but support them in their continuing medical training as a retainer and a lever to get them to go operational and let them be out in the big NHS.

[R 21]

Selly Oak

Hmmmm its that good it has the highest rates of MSRA in the UK. The burns unit has an outbreak at the minute!!

Gordon you tight monkey splash the cash for what our lads and lasses deserve!:mad:

[Anton Meyer]

I gather the RAF have a military hospital on Cyprus but iirc it is seldom used. The likelihood is that it will close in the not-too-distant future which will mean the staff will be distributed to places where their skills are better used...like the front, for example!

[NURSE]

last time it closed it was demolished 24 hrs before Q8 was invaded. I would say most of the staff will redeploy to UK and many will go on tour but many won't be able to due to other comitments like families continuing professional education etc

[NURSE]

Yes but how many of the people with MRSA in selly oak or any hospital had it before they were admitted? MRSA is usually diagnosed in hospital and the patients have had it for a long time before they come in. Which is why GP's are fighting desperatley to stop pre admission screening programmes for booked patients.

[dkh51250]

4F & NURSE, during the fight to retain services at DKMH Catterick, DSCA, PCT, and the hospital itself were unable to provide figures for civilians treated there. The only people who were able to produce a figure were the the British Legion who provided details of veteran referrals. Bearing in mind this was, and still is, Europes largest garrison I find it strange that civilian patients should outnumber serving personnel. Rather odd that the facts are now ignored to suit circumstance.

[dkh51250]

In fact should you need a hospital site DKMH still sits relatively intact. Just think how HM Forces carbon footprint could be reduced by doing away with all those vehicles trundling up and down to MDHU Northallerton and treating personnel within reasonable walking distance of their workplace.

[bspatz]

It seems to me that the one hospital would should have kept was Wroughton. It was close to Brize/Lyneham and the M4 so could be used to receive and stabilize aeromed patients and then road move then to NHS hospitals around the country. It would also provide a logical home base for aeromed teams - or is this too simplistic?

[k1rb5]

bspatz - don't be daft - that makes far too much sense:ugh:

[dkh51250]

Of course it is too sensible. On the other hand, regenerate DKMH and fly everybody into Leeming. Nice long runway there you know.

[NURSE]

The hospital all the Medical services wanted to keep was Wroughton but the comittee that decided was chaired by a Royal Navy officer (Non Medical) hence Haslar.
When Cambridge Military Hospital closed for the 1st Gulf war Hampshire NHS panicked as it had lost a huge ammount of surplus bed capicity and Frimley park went into permenant bed crisis.
QEMH in woolwich also took a large number of civvies from the surrounding area and CMH was Aldershots hospital.
The MDHU concept was based on Musgrave Park in Belfast but unlike Musgrave Park the wards in the MDHU's were fully integreated into the hospital and counted on the NHS's available beds the treatment of service personell wasn't even mentioned in the inital contract. All the MDHU hospitals are paid up front for beds used by the MoD and there is a minimum comitment I think it was 10,000 bed nights/ year which the Mod were only getting a fraction of and the MDHU hospitals were pocketing the rest supposidly for a slush fund to cover contingences like the military staff being deployed like what happened on Tellic when the MDHU hospitals went screaming to the govt for more money to cover the loss of staff. they wanted £5,000,000 a week.
Now do service men and women get a good service no. Will we ever see independant military hospitals again probably not. An ideal solution would be a site in the centre of the country with air facilities and large storage facilities, areas for building a hospital, accomidation/messes/quarter patch and move all the field hospital units onto it along with the bulk of the nursing and PAMS and post doctors in and out of the NHS. Leave a military/NHS laison team in the main hospitals near garrison areas and orginise a decent PTS system to move patients to and from the hospital. Also allow PAM's to move into and ot of the NHS to gain experience/qualifications.
Had heard a few rumours about a proposed site in the midlands currently an RAF base.
DKH its fine for units in the Yorkshire area to say DKH would be ideal however what about those round Salisbury Plain, Colchester, or the RN dockyards Catterick isn't the easiest place to get to. Even some of the units based in Yorkshire will take their sick and injured to closer hospitals than North Allerton.

[dkh51250]

Yep, the rumours about what is currently a Midlands RAF station are rather sad considering it used to have a hospital on site up until 1978.Bearing in mind the "slimming down" of services at Northallerton it is little wonder that units divert patients elsewhere. Remind me now, is patient diversion not one of the things that brought about the demise of DKMH?