Using a Chute to stop

[20Legend]

I know this image shows the chute out just for show but in real life when would it be used....emergency only?

http://www.airliners.net/open.file/1255637/M/ (http://www.airliners.net/open.file/1255637/M/)

[Crash alot]

they are used by some operationaly, mainly due to the long landing runs some aircraft require.

[20Legend]

Are chutes rated as in create say 50% extra drag. Must be some calculation for say if they have to divert to a shorter runway than usually with a heavier payload?

[Razor61]

Isn't the chutes used for aircraft with a much higher landing/approach speed such as the F-4 Phantom, Jaguar and some of the Ruskie jets?

Would the Tornado need a chute if it didn't have thrust reverser buckets?

[27mm]

Brake chutes are routinely used by numerous aircraft (Typhoon is the newest one); the Tonka would certainly need a brake chute if it didn't have TR - a swept wing landing could require an approach speed of approx 220 knots (only a little slower than than LL nav in a Tincano!)

[petermcleland]

Can also be used for technical reasons...For instance, the Hunter FGA9s of 208 Squadron based at Nairobi's Embakazi airport in 1960 were obliged to use the chute for every landing. This was because the landing TAS was rather high due to the 5800 feet airfield elevation and the runway was very smooth. The combination of these two things led to excessive maxaretting from the wheel brakes and this jumping up and down of the brake pressure led to excessive main undercarriage "leg walking" with increased wear...So, we had to use the chute for all landings at base, to prevent this extra wear.

[scamptonboy]

Alternitavely you can pop it before you hit the deck!

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c284/Jason129uk/Cosford%202nd%20July%2007/IMG_4145.jpg

[Doctor Cruces]

Drag chutes are very commonly used for mil fastjets. They take the wear and tear from the brakes and are easier and cheaper to gather up (a couple of blokes with asbestos gloves and a Landreover) than to be constantly changing worn out brakes. All of the V bombers used chutes as did the Phantom, Jaguar, Lightning et al.

Would suspect Tornado too would have one if not for the buckets.

[27mm]

Scamptonboy, you reminded me that some F4 mates used to pop the chute prior to touchdown too, in order to achieve a shorter landing rollout. Then they started flying final approach at 21AOA, instead of the usual 19. Finally, it all came to a head on APC at Akronelli, when 2 F4 QFIs (both CFS A1s, naturally) tried both the 21AOA approach and popping the chute early - needless to say, they landed short and hard, luckily with only bruised egos....

[speeddial]

20Legend, the F-117s don't deploy the chute "just for show" but to get a good share of their overall braking from it, the same with the B-52.

[Wader2]

All of the V bombers used chutes

This was true for the Victor and I am not sure about the Valiant but not all the time in the Vulcan.

The Vulcan use aerodynamic braking which saved the hastle of chute recovery, repacking, replacing etc. From time to time we had a mandatory stream simply to get the b:mad:r out of its box for routine servicing and repacking.

It was also mandatory to stream on runways of less than 6000 feet unless there was a cross-wind and probability of weather cocking. 'twas a rare short runway landing where we didn't have a crosss wind :)

Mind you, while airfields have their main runway into wind this does not mean that the strongest winds are along the main runway axis juts that that is the direction of the prevailing wind.

[20Legend]

http://www.airliners.net/open.file/1255677/M/ (http://www.airliners.net/open.file/1255677/M/)
Evidence of the Typhoon using a chute!

must be some clever people out there who design all this kit!

[c-bert]

must be some clever people out there who design all this kit!


Pah, don't you believe it.

[LowObservable]

Braking chutes came in with the B-47, which actually had two chutes - a small one, deployed in the air, which allowed the pilot to keep the thrust level up on finals (otherwise, the engines wouldn't respond fast enough for a go-around, and the '47 had no airbrakes) and a big one to stop on the ground.
The 117 has a relatively high landing speed owing to 67.5 degrees sweep, no wing curvature and other wackiness, and uses the chute pretty routinely. They had black chutes when they entered service but this was abandoned because Victoria's Secret complained about them hogging worldwide supplies.
The F-16 was designed without a chute but the Norwegians insisted because they operate from icy runways - hence the Norwegian jets (and some others) have a big, boxy fairing at the tail root. The Norwegians also want a chute on the JSF and will have to pay through the nose for it when LMT figures out where to put it.
Other fighters use effective aerobraking instead of a chute - big speedbrakes, differential control surface actuation &c.
The 'phoon has a chute option, I think, because of operator insistence/wet-icy runways &c. But it also has big fan-cooled wheelbrakes (don't have to wait as long for brakes to cool between sorties) an airbrake and the canards, which can be used to dump the aircraft on the wheelbrakes.
By the way, early Caravelle airliners had braking chutes.

[chiglet]

SE210 Caravelle was one civvie jet that used a 'chute...no TR and poor brakes
watp,iktch

[ORAC]

Braking chutes came in with the B-47 Arado 234 with the Luftwaffe in 1943.

http://www.airpages.ru/img/ar234b.jpg

[20Legend]

What materials are the chutes made out of?
Is that true about Victoria Secrets? How many chutes are many a year!!
Also when is a chute deemed no longer useable? after so many deployments?

[c-bert]

What materials are the chutes made out of?

A Stoppem/Dragnium blend.

Is that true about Victoria Secrets?

No. Twas Agent Provocateur. Victoria's Secrets don't operate in the States.

How many chutes are many a year!!

Many, many.

Also when is a chute deemed no longer useable? after so many deployments?

When the poor Ops SAC who has to collect it can put his whole fist through the holes.

[Gainesy]

Did the Valiant have a 'chute? Can't recall seeing it, or any pics. The Victor's was supposedly the largest parachute ever made.

[Art Field]

The Valiant most definitely did not have a chute, just hydraulics and big wheels. The Victor chute was 45 feet in diameter and usually used because the brakes were poor. I believe the Vulcan used the same one. My idea of hell was packing a chute into the hopper on a wet and windy winters night at Leuchars for a QTR on Tansor.

[Razor61]

Did the F-111 deploy a chute?

[Phil_R]

Does this mean that Typhoon pilots are trained in packing parachutes in case they're forced to land somewhere there's no trained ground crew?

Phil

[ORAC]

Did the F-111 deploy a chute? No, the size of the wing and wing sweep was designed for carrier landing speeds and short landings, even if the USN never eventually bought it.

[chevvron]

Tupolev 104 and 124 both had brake chutes as well as the Caravelle. As for deploying before touchdown; Mig 29s seem to do this as normal. (NB BEA Tridents were cleared to engage reverse thrust before touchdown but that's another story)

[Sl4yer]

See here (http://www.lightning.org.uk/archive/0501.php) for an amusing Lightning chute story by Roland Beamont.

I think I've read that XH558 will not require the chute to stop at it's new reduced weights, but that it will still be carried for emergency use. Should make airshow trips a bit easier!

[Jetex Jim]

And don't chutes come in handy for de-spinning, or is that just a last resort option?

[Razor61]

The TSR2 used a 24ft diameter brake chute too.

[Duckbutt]

Don't forget the TU104:

http://www.airliners.net/open.file/559018

[deagles]

The TSR2 had a reefed chute. Efficiency of the chute as a slowing device is obviously related to V squared. If you pop a big one out at high landing speeds, it would need to be of v strong stuff. So TSR2 designers had a big chute which was "reefed" on initial op and at some lower-than touchdown-speed, was unreefed and allowed to develop its full area. (Not sure how the auto-reefing bit worked)

[Jimmy Macintosh]

It was also used to get the Victor out of a super stall.
High T-tail blocked by the main plane in a stall. No control response from the elevators unable to recover. Popping the chute would drop the nose allowing undisturbed air over the tail and the controls would respond again.
Sadly a couple of crews were lost before this was discovered.

[lightningmate]

The Jaguar 'chute, when deployed, presented the most obvious degree of 'performance' available from the whole aircraft :).

lm

[merlinxx]

TU104's normal ops. LHR & LGW airport staff retrieved chutes, flying spanner stowed new chute & took used one home to get repacked. Some times, if I had time, would help the spanner onload new chute, 'twas fun for a lad.

[20Legend]

wow, great info guys! keep it coming! Thanks for all your answers so far!
Didn't know some civil stuff used them aswell!

[Brian Abraham]

The drag chute is used on a number of business jets, among them Dassault Falcons, Learjets and Cessna Citations.

[0497]

Did the F-111 deploy a chute?


There was an Aussie F-111 belly landing a while back (check footage on youtube). No drag chute but there was an arrestor hook.

[sirsaltyhelmet]

Much fun being dragged across SMG airfield by a Victor chute.

God bless the Local Controller who insisted it was the same size as FJ one, and me being daft enough to believe him

[aviate1138]

The F-117A Nighthawk uses a chute because it doesn't have any flaps.

From US Air Force Technology.....

" The elevons do not act as flaps to reduce the rate of descent for touchdown, so the landing speed of the F-117A is high, at about 180mph to 190mph, and a drag parachute is used."

I always wondered what flaps did. I thought the pilot controlled the rate of descent.


Aviate1138

[green granite]

In the second world war pilots of damaged B17s used to get the waist gunners to stream their personal chutes out through the gun ports (with them anchored to the aircraft not themselves) to help slow them down incase the brakes weren't working properly. Bit heath robinson but it helped apparently.

[Two_Squirrels]

I always wondered what flaps did. I thought the pilot controlled the rate of descent.


Flaps don't reduce the rate of descent, they actually reduce the stall speed of the wing, which means that the landing and approach speed are reduced. However, as a secondary effect, for a given glideslope angle, the rate of descent will be reduced if the forward airspeed is reduced.

[Princess La La]

Hawk 128 has a brake chute, I believe this is the latest military aircraft to be fitted with one (although not yet RTS)!:8

[27mm]

The dear little Gnat had one too, a real pocket hanky sized one, of course, more for training than stopping performance, to prepare chaps for the Lightning, where chutes were de rigeur....

[Dan Winterland]

The Valiant definately didn't have a chute. The Victor and the Vulcan has the same 45' diameter chute - the largest chute in regular use anywhere in the world. The Vulcan didn't use it much as it has a fairly low landing speed and could use aerodynamic braking. The Victor had to use it on nearly every landing as it had a higher apporach speed and brakes from a Ford Cortina. Landing without streaming was a big deal and required a landing distance available of over 9000', a headwind and a dry runway, and had to be specailly authorised.

The chute weighed 165lbs and was a b@stard to reload. It had a weak link which was designed to break at over 180 knots, so it's use in the air as a stall recovery aid would have been very limited.

[27mm]

The F4 chute was useful, when it worked; however, prone to getting damp and hence not streaming - also a pain to pack and stow on a landaway. If you want to see some real drag chutes, take a look at the XB-70.....

[ORAC]

http://www.nasa.gov/centers/dryden/images/content/86184main_FS-084-DFRC_popup2.jpg

[Rocket2]

Tailchutes are found on older gliders too, my dear old SHK has one & I use it whenever possible - gives an impressive deceleration & rate of descent when deployed on approach :}

[West Coast]

The space shuttle.

[MrBernoulli]

I concur with Dan W's comments regarding the Victor tail chute - was a b@stard to reload.

Usually took 3 crew to get the new packed chute up and into the tail hopper. Required judicious folding and assorted origami ....... or lots of stomping and jumping about on the bloody thing ....... to get the hopper doors closed. If you landed somewhere pleasant and sunny it was not necessarily a trial to be out there loading the new chute. If you landed somewhere cold wet and miserable then it was a pain in the backside - better to be the 4th man sitting in the cockpit monitoring the refuel panel.:hmm:

[Double Zero]

The Hawk design had provision for a brake-chute ( & other things such as chaff/flare dispensers, pylons & fuel plumbing, proper HUD, etc etc ) from the word go.

The RAF did not require them, but the Ministry agreed on the design being capable to enhance the aircraft's export appeal.

Almost all export Hawks, long before the laser / IR nose of the 100 series, ( and the single seat Hawk 200 fighter ) are a fair bit better equipped than the basic RAF T1.

BTW the Hawk inc 100 & 200 was designed & developed at Kingston / Dunsfold, only much later hi-jacked by Warton to keep them going as they didn't have anything marketable of their own...

[PPRuNeUser0211]

Ahhh yes, the mighty hawk brake chute... with a 1/3rd failure rate! Anyone know if the Hawk T2/128 is cleared for barriers yet?....

[West Coast]

You know you're flying a manly plane like the F4 when you fly a trip around the pattern with a blossomed chute. ORAC/human search engine find a picture of one and post it.

Oh yeah, the scooter-A4 also had a chute. Not often they used it however.

[JT Eagle]

Not quite true - only some export models and the A-4M had braking chutes. The A-4G for the RAN didn't and the A-4K did, and they used it almost all the time. Brazil's AF-1s, which were once Kuwait's A-4KUs have chutes. Unless anyone knows of another type, I think Brazil's Skyhawks are the only carrier-based aircraft to be equipped with brake chutes, although A-4Ms did occasionally appear on carriers. Or did A-3 Skywarriors have chutes?

JT

[Brian Abraham]

did A-3 Skywarriors have chutes

Yes, and about the only point of comminality with the look alike RB-66.

[West Coast]

Okay, some models of the A4 had chutes.

[BEagle]

Just for West Coast:

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a341/nw969/f4.jpg

We had a press visit ad Scampton once - they filmed a Vulcan which was going to land and stream its drag bag. Landed, nothing happened, so it rolled to have another go....

Wherupon the chute deployed at about 200 ft!

Fortunately it was quickly jettisoned - but took AGES to float serenely to earth.

[ORAC]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ef/B-52_Landung_Bremsfallschirm.jpg/800px-B-52_Landung_Bremsfallschirm.jpg

http://www.dfrc.nasa.gov/gallery/Photo/SR-71/Small/EC90-0047-08.jpg

[Brian Abraham]

For the anoraks among us A-4H/K/M/N and TA-4H/K to be precise.

[XV277]

I've seen Fokker twin jets deploy the reverse thrust before actual touchdown as well.

[Out Of Trim]

You know you're flying a manly plane like the F4 when you fly a trip around the pattern with a blossomed chute. ORAC/human search engine find a picture of one and post it.



I remember seeing an RAF F-4M at RAF Wattisham - on landing streamed chute - which candled and pilot decided to get airborne again with reheat and dragged the now burning brake chute around the circuit for another attempt and successful landing.

Enjoyed that!

[izod tester]

Even more inspiring was seeing an F4 at Wildenwrath dragging the barrier round the circuit.
:8

[speeddial]

History quiz:

Which aircraft used to approach with chutes deployed and afterburners burning?

[ORAC]

Try the Shuttle Training Aircraft (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rn5wXUENy4A) (STA).

At 37,000 feet, and abeam the intended point of landing, the instructor pilot:
Lowers the main landing gear to act as speed brakes/increase drag
Selects reverse thrust,
Activates simulation mode, activating the shuttle pilot's controls.

The shuttle pilot then lowers the nose of the aircraft to increase speed to 300 knots, and descends in a 20-degree dive approach. The thrust reverses are stowed at 32ft to go round.

[brickhistory]

Then there's this:

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c342/beauhistory/5.jpghttp://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c342/beauhistory/6a.jpg

On 21 March 1944, the "Belle of Texas" had its hydraulic system holed by enemy fire. They landed on Tarawa and used crew parachutes tied off to the fuselage to slow down.

[pontifex]

The B47 would fly the entire instrument pattern with its drag chute deployed. Primitive engines, little acceleration and a fairly clean airframe. Lots of profile drag preferable.

Indeed the Victor used its chute on all landings as it had tiny wheels and b****r all brakes. It took about 5 secs to develop fully and was a very re-assuring feeling when it did. When Victors were being scrapped and being left around the bazaars as fire hulks, I had to take one into Hal Far. Very short runway so had to practice streaming it in the air so it bit just in the flare. Needed to touch down in first 400 ft at Hal Far on a runway that begins on the edge of a cliff. Fascinating exercise but it worked.

[Geehovah]

"Even more inspiring was seeing an F4 at Wildenwrath dragging the barrier round the circuit. "

Got peppered by the debris on my moped. Just passed through the overshoot on 27 when H....P.... went by.

[West Coast]

I know a good lawyer.

[Zoom]

I think I still have my F-4 land-away notes, which included photographic instructions on how to repack a 'chute. It took a bit of work, and the advice from the linies in the know was just to stuff it all in, lock the door and hope for the best when you got back home.

[B_Fawlty]

and takes ages to re-fit them back into the fitter
:eek:
Why? Won't the fitter stay still while someone tries to shove a packed 'chute up his er... chute? :}