QRA q-q-q questions

[Jackonicko]

I happened across an excellent article about QRA in ‘Spirit of the Air\, Volume 2 Number 2 2007, by Sqn Ldr C B Thirtle, of No.111(F) Squadron.
Details of current QRA procedures, response times and tactics are naturally sensitive and I'm not asking about them, but the article raised some more historical questions in my mind.

Squadron Leader Thirtle described a scramble as an: “adrenalin-charged rush of well- rehearsed activity that will see two armed Tornado F3 fighter aircraft airborne within 10 minutes.”

QUESTION: Didn’t the commitment used to be tighter than ten minutes, at the height of the Cold War? I’m not sure, since I also remember talk of Wattisham’s response time going from ten to fifteen minutes when they moved from the Q-shed to QRA from a HAS.

“Since 1915, following the Zeppelin raids on London, the RAF has conducted QRA operations in some guise or other. In its present form, RAF all- weather air defence fighter aircraft, aircrew and groundcrew have been on immediate readiness since the late fifties to facilitate the policing and, if required, defence of UK national and NATO airspace.”

QUESTION: Does anyone know when, exactly, Fighter Command took up a formal QRA commitment?

“As Cold War tensions thawed and activity lessened, fewer NATO aircraft and crews remained on immediate alert and the tempo slowed.”

QUESTIONS: Was this when the alert interval went to ten minutes? When did the RAF step down from having separate Northern and Southern QRAs?

Has there ever been a time when we had more than two stations holding Q at the same time?

Was there a brief period (post Cold War, pre 9/11) when QRA ended altogether?)

“Following the terrorist attacks of 9/11, the UK was better placed than many other nations to increase her defensive and protective posture immediately, to meet the threat of aircraft as a weapon of mass effect. This resulted in an increase in the number of aircraft and crews holding QRA(I) duties.”

QUESTION: When was Southern QRA reinstated?

“……live armed NATO QRA (I) scrambles against the ‘old enemy’ still occur.”

QUESTION: When was the first post Cold War QRA intercept of a Russian bomber? (Do I remember that it was by a lady F3 pilot?) When had the previous intercept been – how long was the gap?

QUESTION: When did SkyFlash finally give way to AMRAAM on QRA?

QUESTION: On 14 September 2004, Adam Ingram said that: “RAF Marham and RAF St. Mawgan became fully equipped to support quick reaction alert aircraft in June 2004. RNAS Yeovilton is due to become fully equipped for supporting quick reaction alert aircraft in the summer of 2005.” Has St Mawgan ever been used for QRA? Has Yeovilton? Was Yeovilton’s Q facility ever finished?

QUESTION: Parliamentary answers give details of how many aircraft are now on QRA – but were there briefly eight aircraft on Q, as hinted at in the Glenn Torpy interview with the Times? (“Apparently, four quick-reaction alert Tornado F3 planes are on permanent standby to investigate any plane that has not conformed precisely to accepted flight control procedures. Furthermore, we are told two Tornado’s are based at RAF Marham in Norfolk and a further two at RAF Leuchars.”) Or was this a simple double-count?

Sensibly, what is the minimum force required to sensibly sustain a two-aircraft QRA commitment? Two squadrons seems to be a bit of a stretch if they have other commitments, looking at Leuchars, though clearly, demonstrably, it can be done.

[SirToppamHat]

This should be interesting. I'd just caution those considering answering that some of the info sought is classified. Whilst we might consider Jacko a friendly journo (is that an oxymoron?), or at least a well-informed one, no one likes a visit from the chaps in the Black Omegas (especially in the current climate)!

STH

[harrogate]

I think I'm right in saying that the 2 aircraft at Marham Torps referred to were temporarily stationed there whilst Coningsby was closed for refurb pre-Typhoon. 2004? I'm pretty sure southern QRA was never removed.

Leuchars for north, and Leuchars/Leeming aircraft for south, with said aircraft based at Coningsby until the Typhoons take over proper.
Innit?

[Pontius Navigator]

In the 80s Northern Q was at Leuchars but southern Q rotated through all the AD bases. About 1988 Coningsby ceased to mount southern Q and Leeming became the southern Q base with Coningsby crews rotating through Leeming. The logic was to move the southern Q near the scene of operations.

[Lima Juliet]

Pontius

Leeming became the southern Q base with Coningsby crews rotating through Leeming...this is incorrect. Leeming and Coningsby crews augmented Leuchars crews on QRA at Leuchars.

Jacko

The Q buildings at Coningsby were long gone by 1992. Southern Q at Coningsby stood up again on 11 Sep 2001 (9/11) - I wonder why?

When it comes to Readiness States (RS), anything less than RS10 minutes is knackering as it has to be beside the aircraft or even in it! I seem to remember the "Tombs" in Wildenwrath, Germany on 5 minutes on Battle Flight - but they had far shorter notice of an intruder from the Soviet Union.

I thought Ninja's (Sqn Ldr Thirtle - think about it!) article was pretty good and as a journo you would do well to reflect on its accuracy. :D

The rest? I cannot answer that question, Sir.

LJ

[John Farley]

Re your first question Jacko at Jever in Germany in the late 50s we were required to have a first pair on 5 mins readiness (time to takeoff) with a second pair at 15mins. This was achieved from the crew room by strapping in, doing the checks to the point where the starter button was next then turning off the battery master and carefully getting out leaving all the straps ready for a quick return if scrambled. Usually, but not always, the state was raised to 2 mins if it looked like something was developing. This required us strapped in and on telebrief.

Each Hunter Sqn took it in turns to do a week of day time 'Battle Flight' as it was termed then (QRA being a modern expression) while Javelins covered the night hours.

[Lima Juliet]

John

Thanks for reminding me about telebrief - I had almost forgotten about that little box of tricks!

Jacko

More released QRA info at http://www.fly-safely.org/story.asp?id=75

Not too much info but it might answer some more of your questions.

LJ

[Lima Juliet]

Jacko

More from the internet...

http://www.rafmarham.co.uk/relations/stories/f3-at-marham.htm

and in answer to "Sensibly, what is the minimum force required to sensibly sustain a two-aircraft QRA commitment? Two squadrons seems to be a bit of a stretch if they have other commitments, looking at Leuchars, though clearly, demonstrably, it can be done"?

http://www.raf.mod.uk/rafconingsby/newsweather/index.cfm?storyid=BABE0499-1143-EC82-2E5139F12BD864F1

and also Hansard

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200304/cmhansrd/vo040504/text/40504w20.htm

and also in Islamic state news

http://www.irna.com/en/news/view/menu-234/0612285475150136.htm

Just type your questions into Google and you'll be amazed :ok:

LJ

[John Farley]

As for anything less than 15 mins being knackering I don't recall that being an issue 50 years ago as we were all so bloody young. It was a bugger though the way the squawk box from wing ops would go "Battle Flight Scramble" and so you had to run full tilt down the stairs onto the pan, leap in and dash to the end of the R/W only to hear "Practice Practice Practice" from ATC when you asked for takeoff. So you had to go back and set the whole thing up again. As we had quite a lot of practice scrambles the shine went off the excitement after a while and so I got a monkey and trained him up to run out and do the business knowing he would never have to take off. That way I got more charp. It all went wrong one day when the pair had to lurch off. I took a fair amount of **** for that which was understandable I suppose. I didn't mind until I heard later he had been made an Air Commodore.

[henry crun]

I do not know when the RAF first took up formal QRA commitment but my earliest recollection was in Dec 1956 at Waterbeach.

I can remember at one point we had a pair on 2 minutes when the vis was about 50 yards.

I even flew on Christmas day !

[Warmtoast]

ISTR that at Biggin in 1953 - 1955, 41, 600 and 615 Sqn Meteor F.8s did turns strapped in on the ORP at the end of the runway for QRA events. Op "Fabulous" I think is was called. Quick-release Telebrief cable was connected and order to scramble came direct down the line from the Sector Controller at Met Sector Ops Centre at Kelvedon Hatch.

At the time the percieved theat was from Soviet aircraft approaching via Germany and the Low Countries. For early 1950's Air Defences Exercises the 'attacking' bomber force almost invariably approached the UK from over the Low Countries or France. Excercises were in some respects a bit of a farce as East and South coast radar stations tracked the 'attackers' as they left the UK travelling east, watched them as they turned over the continent and tracked them as they returned inbound, so there was no element of surprise!

During my time at Biggin, bombers used during these execises were Lincoln's, Washingtons, USAF B.45 Tornados and the first in-service Canberras. Meteors did reasonably well against the Lincolns and Washigtons, but not so well against the B.45 which seemed to be able to fly well above 40,000 ft, whilst the Canberras left the Meteors standing, both speed and height wise. I particularly recall that at the exercise wash-ups and evaluations, plaudits were heaped on the performance of the Canberras which caused concern to the Biggin Meteor fighter squadrons.

Hunters arrived at Biggin in early 1955, but I'm not sure how well they fared in air defence exercises against the new jet bombers then entering service.

[exMudmover]

In the early 70s Rod Sargeant was on Lightnings at Gutersloh, where the Battle Flight "Sheds" were right at the beginning of the runway. ISTR Rod telling me that once he had got airborne in 2 minutes from fast asleep on his scratcher beside the jet - and in the middle of the night! Sleeping in full flying kit naturally.

[soddim]

I take my hat off to Rod - I did it in three minutes from the same accommodation in 1967 and woke up in the climb.

[Impiger]

During my time the norm was 10 mins from QRA sheds at Leuchars and Wattisham and from the special room at the end of 3 Hangar at Coningsby. Oh and 5 minutes at Wildenwrath. We slipped to 15 minutes for the F3 at first because the INs took so long to spin up but we eventually got even that down to 10 when required. In the end 15 seemed OK for most Cold War scenarios so it seemed to stick.

When I started NQRA was shared between 43 and 111 at Leuchars with SQRA rotating between 56 and 23 at Wattisham, 29 at Coningsby and 5 & 11 Sqns at Binbrook with F6. We were given slightly more crews to help but it was still a constant drain on resources. The geography was a bit of a nonsense and I remember holding NRA from Coningsby while 111 Sqn were boltholed in 1979 with SQRA held by Binbrook a few miles further north!

As for how many on Q? I launched as Q6 once in a sidewinder only armed F4 during a Russian naval exercise when the North Sea seemed like the Murmansk instrument pattern.

We used to hold 2 aircraft on Q from a squadron complement of 10 F4s in 1978 - it were tough going and we always put a third on the point as a spare over weekends. Still 20 Bears in a Leuchars tour was the norm and some blighters made 20 within 2 years.

Happy days

[dum_my]

While visiting 29 Sqn in 1990, I got chatting to the groundcrew, many of whom had been there when it reformed with the F3 in 1987. Dunno if this is an urban myth, but this is what they said:

In late 1987 (or early-88, not sure when), 29 Sqn assumed SQRA with the Tornado F3 for the first time. The groundcrew seemed to remember that the Sqn took over Q as scheduled on a Friday. Within a few hours a Bear appeared on a routine patrol, which they duly visited.

Unsurprisingly, the Bear told his all mates about this new Tornado thingy. All the other Bears came over for a look as well, and over the course of the weekend 29 Sqn launched Q so many times that they used up every one of their aircraft, and eventually borrowed several OCU assets as well.

[groveaviation]

The F3 story has a ring of truth to it, although probably more coincidenatl with a big exercise, like JMC. There has been the odd ocassion when the Soviets went for a big push and stretched QRA significantly. Specifically remember one friday in early 90's when LMG had Q and they had already launched everything they had, so we started generating at CGY (to be fair that did coincide with happy hour, so think LMG were crew strapped rather than jet).

[ORAC]

Two occasions come to mind.

The first was in 1976 when they started to send pairs round at about 1 hour intervals. We generated and launched all the Q aircraft we had, then started generating more. Then the jets from CY were generated, at the end the jets from WT were being launched to land and turn round at LU to be lauched in turn. 30 minutes after the absolutely last jet that could be generated was launched - the next pair in the stream turned round and went home.

The second would have been about 86/87.

We normally got lots of warning of activity. Either the Norwegians would track them through 30 East or the Int people would give us a heads up and we'd launch and wait. Lots of times they'd be Foxtrots who turned out to being heading for Jan Mayen island or some such and the Q qould burn holes in the sky for a few hours.

But one day, with no Int, and nothing happening, 3 pairs popped into radar cover simultaneously. One pair 200nm north of Polestar heading south, another pair 200nm north of Saxa heading south and the third pair 200nm west of Benbecula heading east.

Q1 was frantically scrambled but by the time he got airborne they'd all finished attack runs at about 100nm and turned for home. He chased down the third pair as it headed north, but never caught them.

They'd obviously headed north outside Norwegian cover, kept radio silence and then gone low level.

Someone had, it seemed, wanted to make a point.....

Then of course there was the LU Q F4 who almost ran out of fuel chasing Bears south of Iceland, cleaned his wings (tanks, mx, pylons) and just made the tanker with just a couple of hundred pounds of usable fuel left, but that's another story.

[CharlieJuliet]

From memory: Lightning 10 minutes from the crew roon and 5 minutes strapped in on the line. 5 mins from the Q shed and 2 mins strapped in in the Q shed

[Razor61]

Italian Typhoon QRA in 6 minutes, out the shed in 4mins:-
http://youtube.com/watch?v=navOzmFTH-8

[BEagle]

VC10K - scaramble from crewroom to bus to aircraft. Airborne in 7 minutes from call.....thanks to B** O'**r*'s 'ripple start' technique!

And a dashed civilised way of getting Bear snaps!

[Dick Whittingham]

If memory serves, a Hunter in Germany was taxying out as spare to join the QRA on the ORP when the hooter went, and he swung onto the runway and took of with the ladder on. I also recall a QRA on a hot day, with a Hunter brought to the "master switch and start button stage" with the hood open. The pilot took off his bonedome and set it up on the windscreen. Scramble went well untill the bits of fibreglass began falling into the cockpit.

Dick W

[Impiger]

ORAC I know that crew. To be fair (why?) they were in the mighty FG1 version with only TACAN and an air navigation computer which relied on met winds. Neither were much use in the Iceland Faeroes gap and we were often out of radio range of Polestar or Saxa. Still they did buy beer for many months.

BEags - the only civilised thing about the Vickers Funbus was being able to go for a pee in some comfort. Of course real men could use the bags provided in the F4 even though ones tackle had to make its way through shreddies, long johns, bunny suit, and immersion suit first!! As I said only real men could achieve this.

I know more EO school for me!!

[BEagle]

Impiger, old mate, just the thought of having to faff about putting in the seat pin, loosening straps and then fumbling through all those layers just to aim one's tadger (hopefully) into one of those horrid sponge-filled piddle packs was enough to persude one to bottle it until after landing! Mind you, you should have seen the horrible things we had on the mighty Tin Triangle - a football bladder with a metal cup (which could get very cold indeed....) at the 'filling' end.

Anyway, in one's FunBus one could dine splendidly, read the paper, unfurl the Sun calendar for the Sovietski Tovarichs' enjoyment (Sam Fox was a great favourite amongst the Bear B/C crews!) - the chatter on 'that' frequency became very busy when we did that....


Allegedly!

By the way - why do you feel the need to learn more about electro-optics? Were you not a QWI and thus knowledgable beyond mortal belief about all such things?

[Proof Reader]

"I didn't mind until I heard later he had been made an Air Commodore."

John,
Would I recognise the name?

[John Farley]

PR
His name was Key. You may have known many of them but he had three first names Mike Oliver Nigel. Did a fair bit of time in the USN too I believe.
J

[Jackonicko]

Many historic questions remain.

For example:

Obviously Fighter Command practised QRA on exercise, but when did permanent QRA become a commitment?

Surely Southern Q lasted after 1988 ("About 1988 Coningsby ceased to mount southern Q, and Leeming and Coningsby crews augmented Leuchars crews on QRA at Leuchars.") - do we mean '98?

The current situation shows that, if it does nothing else, one big squadron can sustain a QRA commitment as the F3 unit at Leuchars is doing now.

The rest of the Qs are still on page one, in red......

[Sgt.Slabber]

dum_my

While visiting 29 Sqn in 1990, I got chatting to the groundcrew, many of whom had been there when it reformed with the F3 in 1987. Dunno if this is an urban myth, but this is what they said:

In late 1987 (or early-88, not sure when), 29 Sqn assumed SQRA with the Tornado F3 for the first time. The groundcrew seemed to remember that the Sqn took over Q as scheduled on a Friday. Within a few hours a Bear appeared on a routine patrol, which they duly visited.

Unsurprisingly, the Bear told his all mates about this new Tornado thingy. All the other Bears came over for a look as well, and over the course of the weekend 29 Sqn launched Q so many times that they used up every one of their aircraft, and eventually borrowed several OCU assets as well.

groveaviation

The F3 story has a ring of truth to it, although probably more coincidenatl with a big exercise, like JMC. There has been the odd ocassion when the Soviets went for a big push and stretched QRA significantly.

Good Friday, 1988. 29 had taken over Q the day before, Thursday PM - I think at 1400 zulu's. It was a bit of a fcuk-up! The "staish" of the moment, one C C C C C C C C C C C C0^1\\e - there may be one or two additional "C's" in there - had called a "penalty minival" starting on the Monday or Tuesday of that week to finish on the Thursday morning before Easter Grant. C C C C C was really big on his own minivals and generation exercises! That is why 29 were given an extra hour or so to get their aircraft off "exercise" state and onto "Q" state. Minival duly finished approx 1000 zulu's on the Thursday morning and 29 prepped the first of their "Q" aircraft. However, instead of downloading the Flash/Winders from the op loads used during the the minival - very short on training weapons so live loads used - and loading the specially prepped "Q" loads, somone, and I know not whom, decided to tell 29's Armourers to leave the current loads in place and just change the Flash Launcher carts from the solid steel exercise drill items then fitted with the operational "bang" carts from the other sealed box on the back of the "S". Note that the Launcher carts could be replaced without dropping the Flash. 29 duly went on Q with their aircraft "loaded for Bear". First Q went off, I think, mid-morning on Good Friday, and as Dum_my stated, their target sent the message back that it had an F3 close by and would the other comrades like to come on down. They did. 29 used most of their aircraft that weekend, plus some from 5, which had just reformed but were not yet declared, as well as two or three aircraft from 229.

Where was the fcuk-up? The squadron armourers were told to leave the current loads on and to replace the drill launcher carts with the live ones from the other box on the "S" Type. They did, dut they didn't change the Flash LMFC's - the Flash would have had to be dropped off the launcher to replace them, about a 20 minute job per aircraft.

We did not have any "Blue" Flash LMFC's at that time - we had "White and Red" ones for that purpose. Those who know about the White and Red LMFC's will recognise the significance...

[The B Word]

Jacko

Here is some interesting info for you...

FighterControl • Home to the Military Aviation Enthusiast • View topic - NATO QRA Alert numbers released (http://www.fightercontrol.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=287&p=31496)

Here's a pic from the "other end" of QRA business in 2007...

http://rt.com/s/obj/old/media/image/9/4716e9621bbf2.jpg

Rumour has it that we were busy again this month with the obligatory Norwegian and British reception party - good job we're winding up capabilities to fight "THE" war everyone who's dressed in brown keeps going on about! :{

See here for more ... Russian bombers complete Arctic patrol mission | Top Russian news and analysis online | 'RIA Novosti' newswire (http://en.rian.ru/mlitary_news/20100120/157622289.html)

By the way they were not B-45s (subtract 42 and change the "B" for an "F"!) - allegedly :ok:

The B Word

[The B Word]

PS. Here's a headline "Russia could double number of bombers on strategic patrols"!!!

Here's the link

Russia could double number of bombers on strategic patrols | Air Force News at Defense Talk (http://www.defencetalk.com/russia-double-bombers-strategic-patrols-23500/)

[Pontius Navigator]

C C C C C was really big on his own minivals and generation exercises!

He was keen on minivals for good reason. Tacevals were of course Stn Cdr's promotion exams and he had been sold a pup by his predecessor MBE. MBE had scored a 2 in the taceval and was boat happy.

The first exercise that C4 called was a crash disaster exercise. No need of a crash, it was a full blown disaster. Then I think thee may have been a taceval which sort of went the same way. MBE had gone 100% on fighting a hardened station in chemical conditions and completely ignored nuclear. Of course the next taceval was nuclear ..............

MBE then got his comeupance as C4 got promoted and MBE got posted as a Gp Capt as his deputy. There is some justice in this world.

[BOAC]

As I said only real men could achieve this.- in my time on 23(F) (Lightnings) the only one rumoured to be 'man enough' (or foolish enough:sad:) was 'Eric the Irish'.:)

The rest of us developed very Long Lasting Bladders (or temporarily warm feet inside the goon suit boots) - the LLB is still LL even after all those decades.

[Sgt.Slabber]

PN - I was not aware of the alleged short-comings, or otherwise, of MBE. That was before my time. I didn't arrive back at Big C until the week of the "great storm" of the previous October - or was it the "big wind"?

What I do know is that that "penalty minival" compromised 29's operational capability on their first "few" Q sorties - due to decisions taken in the WOC during the later stages of that exercise...

Apologies for thread drift. PN, I'll send you a PM.

[soddim]

Those days, of course, Pontius, CC and MBE were two of the biggest obstacles in the path of those who knew the difference between the F3 and a fighter and were trying hard to get the air marshalls attention to the fact that much more work and money was needed to sort the weapons system out.

That this was finally achieved is a tribute to the individuals who risked their careers to overcome these two obstructionists who had both been involved in the procurement of a 'pup'.

[Free Vortex]

Perhaps the true and complete story about the introduction to service of the Tornado ADV (first as the F2 and then as the F3), together with the capabilities of the 'Y' list AI24 radar in the F2, then the 'Z' list AI24 in F3 will get told one day?? (By the people who actually 'stood up and were counted'/had their careers destroyed....................).

The amount of sterling work that went into ASR395 (Final Definition) Stage 1/Stage 2 AI24 radar development, JTIDS fit, various chaff & flare fits, AMRAAM and ASRAAM integration, LINS (laser IN/GPS)MMS, EW, radio and IFF updates to the Tornado F3 was truly staggering.

Free Vortex