Changes to PME/Fitness test

[day1-week1]

I heard recently from a normally very reliable source that moves are afoot to change the current PME. As part of the newer 'fitter airforce', your PME will now be linked to your ability to pass the APFT, in somuch that you have to have passed the test in the x preceeding weeks to your PME, ie no pass, no med cat renewal. The reasoning behind this will be not so much fitness/ability to do job bla.. but that Officers and SNCO should be setting a better example, leading from the front etc, which is actually a fair point, although I'm sure some of the more fuller 'figured' aviators will come up with a reason as to why they shouldn't. Also to counter act the 'well we'll just loose our med cats and won't fly' augument, a fast track loss of flying pay is being considered for what will be looked upon as a 'self inflicted' condition.

[dallas]

It's not like we've got any other issues to worry about, so why not?

[Just This Once...]

Ah good - another own-goal.


Doc: It’s a good news / bad news type of result I’m afraid. Which would you like first?

Pilot: I’m tough, give it to me straight.

Doc: You have failed your Aircrew Medical due to your lacklustre and frankly disappointing level of fitness. Your lack of leadership has been entered into your medical records. Your flying pay will be cut in 12 months in accordance with current regulations.

Pilot: Christ Doc, don’t sugar-coat it or anything [Gulp!] What is the good news?

Doc: You passed your Class 1 medical with ease and I believe the PVR time equates to the ticking clock on your flying pay. Good luck with the airlines.

Pilot: Thanks Doc. Good luck to you with your imminent future on the new full-fat NHS GP contract.

Doc: Cheers mate, see you in civi-street.

[CrabInCab]

Ah good - another own-goal.
Doc: It’s a good news / bad news type of result I’m afraid. Which would you like first?
Pilot: I’m tough, give it to me straight.
Doc: You have failed your Aircrew Medical due to your lacklustre and frankly disappointing level of fitness. Your lack of leadership has been entered into your medical records. Your flying pay will be cut in 12 months in accordance with current regulations.
Pilot: Christ Doc, don’t sugar-coat it or anything [Gulp!] What is the good news?
Doc: You passed your Class 1 medical with ease and I believe the PVR time equates to the ticking clock on your flying pay. Good luck with the airlines.
Pilot: Thanks Doc. Good luck to you with your imminent future on the new full-fat NHS GP contract.
Doc: Cheers mate, see you in civi-street.
Now that's inspired. :E:E

[H5N1]

Unless this has come through in the last week, there's been nothing about it come down the med chain of command. You can access the med bible AP1269 & 1269A and the latest Surgeon General Policy Letters on the intranet (just go to the Innsworth page and hit the medical emblem at the bottom and you'll find all the links). If there's any truth in this it should be listed there.

[heights good]

Well i might be talking as one of the minority, but, i think this is a good idea. Personally I dont want to fly on ops with someone who can't pass a (quite frankly easily passable) fitness test. Why should i visit the gym 4 or 5 times a week and be in the best shape i can be to make sure i have the best chance of survival for some fat lazy bloater who can't be bothered holding me back. They have a responsibility to there crew members and passangers to be in the best physical shape they can be. There are quite a few who need a foot up the backside to help there flying suit zips from straining. There are far too many spray on flying suits in circulation.

As for a class 1 medical, what airline will employ someone who can't pass a token effort of a fitness test?

Rant over ;)

Heights good

[PTT]

Personally I dont want to fly on ops with someone who can't pass a (quite frankly easily passable) fitness test.
I'm curious as to what relation you think extreme physical fitness has to ability to fly, which is largely a mental ability. Maybe a few nights at the pub quiz are actually what you need instead of more time going "ug, me lift heavy weight". :E
Why should i visit the gym 4 or 5 times a week and be in the best shape i can be to make sure i have the best chance of survival for some fat lazy bloater who can't be bothered holding me back.
Old joke: Two men out watching lions on safari. One lion starts getting a bit close. One of the men starts putting on trainers. The other says "you'll never out-run the lion." The man with the trainers says "I only need to out-run you." :rolleyes:
As for a class 1 medical, what airline will employ someone who can't pass a token effort of a fitness test?
Any airline that has seen you can pass a class one medical.
I seriousness, I agree that there are too many overweight people out there, but linking physical fitness to medical fitness to do the job reeks of someone's political and promotional agenda.

[toddbabe]

We have been here before :zzz: nothing will change, the fat, overweight buckets of lard will continue to burden us with their woes of why they shouldn't/don't have to be fit to perform their ever so important tasks, be it at home or abroard.
Until the Airforce decides to penalise these oxygen thieves we will forever be going round in circles.

[BEagle]

Perhaps. Rather pointless circles of the gym (whatever one of those is) and the sports field. Whilst the 'buckets of lard' are working.

[Finger Poking]

You really think you are something supreme don't you?

Instead of blowing hot air on here and in the Gym which you clearly spend too much time in, becoming some kind of queen, why don't you try shutting the F*ck up and doing some work.

Now there is a novel thought for you!!

I bet you post on here as not even the unpopular people speak to you normally as you have alienated all but those who have no choice but to interact with your pathetic ramblings.

I will not be the only one who really has had enough of you! Take note and F*ck Off !!

[Mad_Mark]

Todd, you're a right boring tw@ - I bet you're a bundle of laughs on the Sqn :rolleyes: Maybe you should buy a new CD - that one seems to be scratched and keeps skipping back to the same bit over and over again :ugh:

I pass my AFT but know others that are exceptionally good at their job that failed it. I personally would rather fly with someone like that than someone that isn't any good at the job but is a gym queen, just on the off chance we end up on the ground together.

Of all the aircraft that have gone down in theatre over the past few years, how many of the crews that have been lucky enough to survive the crash have had to go on the run afterwards? If the worst came to the worst, since you say that they are just "oxygen thieves", you could always leg it on your own :ooh:

MadMark!!! :mad:

[effortless]

It ain't just aircrew. I was watching some Rocks dragging their beer-guts around the other day, not a pretty sight!:eek:

[cornish-stormrider]

Toddbabe........

What is your actual job supposed to be??

Now rather that sitting on your (apparently) thin arse moaning about everyone else why don't you get up and do your primary task. My taxes are not paying for you to sit down and moan at everyone on pprune.

[Wader2]

Of all the aircraft that have gone down in theatre over the past few years, how many of the crews that have been lucky enough to survive the crash have had to go on the run afterwards?

Well I can think of one in GW1:}.

Then there was one in the Falklands and another in Bosnia. The last really did need fitness once the SASteam joined him.

Remember Bravo 22 and the RAF/SAS EinE brief? The helo crew were mightily relieved that the SAS team did not expect them to tag along and the SAS Team ditto.

I was no gym queen but I think I would have had a certain keeness to lose a couple of pounds.

[Airborne Aircrew]

Here we go again... There's the avalanche of cellulite telling everyone how they don't need to be fit to do their primary duty and how they'd rather fly with someone who's good at their job rather than someone who was fit, (implying that fit people aren't as good at their job as fat people), and how it's an undue administrative burden that should be addresses by proper manning levels and personal fitness trainers.

Read back through what has been written already by those who are "anti-fitness". This one is a treat to read:-

I personally would rather fly with someone like that than someone that isn't any good at the job but is a gym queen, just on the off chance we end up on the ground together.He slides in a nice little insult to show his distaste but in the end the sentence is meaningless. Fortunately I don't fly any more because I'd rather not fly with someone who can barely pass a simple physical _and_ can't string together a cohesive sentence.

Here's another credit to mankind and military men. Nothing of sense to say, just a stream of insults:-

Instead of blowing hot air on here and in the Gym which you clearly spend too much time in, becoming some kind of queen, why don't you try shutting the F*ck up and doing some work.PTT:

You make some good points... But the Lion joke doesn't work in this situation... Nice try though... ;)

In the long run, (pun intended folks... :) ), these things come back to two basic points. Firstly, and most importantly, it's an issue of personal pride and self discipline. If you aren't self disciplined enough to raise yourself out of your LazyBoy for 3 or 4 hours a week then what else are you not self disciplined enough to do. Many others can manage the time and be good at their primary and secondary duties so the "there isn't enough time" bleat really doesn't retain water, (another intended pun - sorry ladies - I can be a b1tch too you know... ;) ). Secondly, their Airships have decided they want you looking fitter and leaner, (probably to try to help them look better themselves - but the reasons are irrelevant - this is what they want... end of story), and if they want something they will get it in the end. No matter how much you don't like it or how much it inconveniences you they will get their expected result... if they don't they will inconvenience you some more and they'll keep doing it until you comply...

Now, while you contemplate that last point, let's think back to all those comments along the lines of "I'd rather have a smart pilot than a fit pilot"... If you can't grasp the last point and understand that you might as well "just do it", (yep, another intentional barb... :D ), because if you don't your life will become more uncomfortable I'd suggest that you aren't as smart as you thought you were and, in that case, you are probably misleading yourself about your abilities in your primary duty - Thankfully, you are probably not misleading your superiors.

*Dons tin hat and poncho and awaits the torrential outpouring of vitriol* :E

[effortless]

Look it is thirty years since I was invalided but we were taught "Mens sana in corpore sano." It must be true that being fit is the clever thing to do. If you want to stay flying longer then get fit. Your youth will only carry you so far.

Get fit stay and fit or you will end up like me, struggling to maintain an NPPL never mind combat readiness.

[Wader2]

if they want something they will get it in the end. No matter how much you don't like it or how much it inconveniences you they will get their expected result... if they don't they will inconvenience you some more and they'll keep doing it until you comply...

This is probably a questionable assumption.

The most recent fitness whip crack, about 3 years ago, did not really seem to have any effect.

Years previous the same again. Their airships at command decreed a quarterly test but it too died out for lack of interest.

Away from fitness, there have been periodic attempts to get aircrew out of growbags, for instance when going to hand brake house or down town shopping. That too died a death.

Anyone remember the single minded drive to get the Air Force to fly on QNH? That lasted exactly as long as it took CAS to get his knickers twisted.

they will get their expected result

This is really like the Government of the day and the civil service. If the Government is preceived to be a short term one the civil service merely works at a slow pace to get its own way.

Onward and upward and out :)

[cornish-stormrider]

Would I prefer a fit pilot or a good pilot???

I want one who is both. When I had my backseat trip I was at my fittest and came out looking like a sweaty bag of sh!te. Pilot in front who scared me half to death had a light sheen of perspiration, all through the G manouevers etc I was grunting and straining like a pig, pilot chatting away nice and calm.......

I was way above the fitness test level and doing hours of exercise a week yet I know said pilot was better at his job than I and he was close to the seat top weight limit wearing all his flying kit.

Fitness is subjective, Yes.

If their airships want to improve fitness they can allow for time to do it and motivate the troops positively (not chosen to do this) or they can make a noise and expect you to do it in your own time. I think they have picked this route:8.

But if they have chosen this way then they can...
a) expect a backlash from those unwilling to get fit.
b) Expect those that are fit (or fairly so) to ask about things like time to do it and incentives.
c) expect a lot of smug narcissistic gym queens to spout all manner of tripe with a wide variance in statistics and analysis to back it up.
d) look forward to a rise in injuries as the tubby bloaters who would like to change go out and try to get fit with no training and supervision and get hurt.
e) overburden the failed mil medical system even further.


I am not trying to dispute the be fitter live longer ethos, nor try to find excuses for the lazyboys but it seems that most of the postings on fitness related threads are from those det doging gym queens:E:E. would a fitter air force be a good thing?? YES

Does there need to be a set standard for going to the sandpit. Yes/No delete as applicable.

Is the RAF under manned/funded/moraled/equipped/led/supported?
delete as applicable.

In that case I submit they rectify the bigger issues rather than moaning on about fitness and dividing the troops opinion further.

I notice toddbabe hasn't replied, here's hoping he/she/it (don't know so given all the options) is actually earning what my taxes pay for....

:E:E:E

Fly Safe

[Wader2]

Does there need to be a set standard for going to the sandpit. Yes/No delete as applicable.

Is the RAF under manned/funded/moraled/equipped/led/supported?
delete as applicable.

The answer to the firstis clearly YES

The answer to the second is also clearly YES

Which begs the question. Are all those sent to the sandpit fit?

[Mad_Mark]

Read back through what has been written already by those who are "anti-fitness". This one is a treat to read:-

I personally would rather fly with someone like that than someone that isn't any good at the job but is a gym queen, just on the off chance we end up on the ground together.

He slides in a nice little insult to show his distaste but in the end the sentence is meaningless. Fortunately I don't fly any more because I'd rather not fly with someone who can barely pass a simple physical _and_ can't string together a cohesive sentence.

I suggest that you "[r]ead back through what has been written already" AA. If you do you will see that I am not anti-fitness. In fact I do indeed visit the gym and pass my AFT. However I do not like those that spend half of their lives in the gym and constantly belittle those that don't do the same.

You will also see that I did not say that you can not be fit and good at your job, I simply stated that I would rather fly with someone that is good at their job but has failed the AFT than with someone that lives for the gym but isn't good at their job. The perfect scenario is that they are both fit and A-Cats, but you don't get many of those to the kilo.

MadMark!!! :mad:

[PTT]

AA:
their Airships have decided they want you looking fitter and leaner, (probably to try to help them look better themselves - but the reasons are irrelevant - this is what they want... end of story), and if they want something they will get it in the end. No matter how much you don't like it or how much it inconveniences you they will get their expected result... if they don't they will inconvenience you some more and they'll keep doing it until you comply...

That is just the kind of thinking which will keep the PVR rate high. Right now we need to be keeping people in, not pushing them away in droves. The more inconveniences their airships produce the more people will vote with their feet, which will increase the inconvenience on those left, increasing the number of PVRs etc etc. In these times of deployment after deployment (I personally have done at least 4 months out of every 12 since Jan 2003) we simply cannot afford to drive people away. I'd like to see them make my life less convenient... :ugh:

There is a running (pun intended) theme here that physical fitness bears a direct relationship with job capability. To those who believe this to be the case I ask you this: what would Douglas Bader have achieved in the bleep test? Or the situps for that matter. ;)

[Pontius Navigator]

To those who believe this to be the case I ask you this: what would Douglas Bader have achieved in the bleep test? Or the situps for that matter. ;)

Not much but then he was no great shakes at escape and evasion either.

[PTT]

Quite a good aviator though, I am led to believe ;)

[cornish-stormrider]

:ENow I tought one of the reasons Douglas Bader was such a good pilot was because he had lost his legs. Let us put aside for a mo the obvious heroism of the man and the fact he had such big balls of steel they would have needed a second kite and look at the facts. No legs = nowhere for blood to drain therefore can turn tighter and harder than anyone else, more high G moves increase the tolerance so by the time he's back he has stressed the wings off just about everything. Did they have fatigue meters back then or were the lineys just bf'ing the jets that had a pair of wings and slinging them at the sky.

Back to thread, I understand that shorter thickset typres make better candidates for G tolerance rather than racing snakes with a body fat percentage of naff all. Also I understand that serious marathon runners are no good in the front row ( Generally)

Ever seen a tall racing snake do a double fcu change on a 199 as stupid o clock in the morning in the rain without an sps jack???

No, Why because its not easy, The only one I ever saw was Cpl J***** I***** on 11 sqn and he managed coz he was a rugby player. not a gym queen.

Fitness for purpose, an ideal tonka sooty should be about 4'9", really wide. immune to pain, drink avtur (or at least enjoy it when it drips into your eyes) with a set of six jointed fingers and the ability to either wirelock by feel or x-ray vision to see through the airframe that was put in the way.
Oh and being able to diagnose and fix engine faults by being on shift, not off sick with a sports injury or preening down the gym

:E

[Bob the Doc]

I have no doubt that fitter people live longer. This affects the military very little though as there are very few even very unfit people that will keel over before they leave the mob. Some would say that we should be encouraging this to reduce the pension burden! I would still say that fitter is better (and that is from someone who is unfit but trying to do something about it).

I am sure that given the choice, we would all rather have a top notch aviator in the left hand seat than a fit, crap one but the training solution to the problem has nothing to do with fitness.

As someone who regularly spends hours at a time in the back of transport a/c, I have never had an issue with my unfitness and would consider myself incredibly unlucky to have to do an sort of E&E, especially as I have had no training in it. Hasn't stopped me going to both TELIC and HERRICK in the last 6 months (day trips only).

I suspect (but can't prove - mostly because I don't feel I need to) that fitter people have a higher alertness, particularly on long duration ops. There are a lot of medical reasons for this that I won't go into now.

This debate will run and run as there are people firmly entrenched in both camps. Perhaps we should just agree to differ and get on with moaning about something else!

[musclemech]

... what would Douglas Bader have achieved in the bleep test? Or the situps for that matter.


Bader was an international standard rugby player, so I imagine he would have been able to do quite well on both counts. It was his fitness as well as his determination that first helped him recover from his injuries and then get back on his feet again. Then he spent quite some considerable time in gyms....


MM

[insty66]

Excellent..................Another fitness thread.:rolleyes:

Bet it's just like the last one:ugh:

Just re-read the old thread and let this die please.

[Airborne Aircrew]

PTT

That is just the kind of thinking which will keep the PVR rate high.....I can't disagree with a word you are saying... But don't, for a second, be conned into believing that their Airships have the same motivations you do. In fact, you might need to consider the fact that they _might_ be trying to prove a point to politicians or even, who'd even dream this one, that they may be doing silly things deliberately to put the forces in an untenable position because they are quite happy teaching the gubmint that has done all it can to destroy them a lesson, (that is, of course, purest speculation... :D). Simply put, we/you don't know... But remember "The RAF can't make you do anything... But it can make you wish you had!"

Wader:

This is probably a questionable assumption.My Bold.

Since you concede a point of probability then you also concede that I may equally well be right. That being the case your life could, equally well, become more inconvenienced until you comply.

Stormrider:

I'd buy into your "fitness for purpose" argument if, and only if, the aircrew that argue against the fitness tests spent more time in the air than they do on the ground. Alas, we are all aware, that this is not the case. Furthermore, I'd suggest that this reliance on the "fitness for purpose" defense is bandied around by those who are more interested in flying Her Majesty's aircraft for their own benefit, (whatever that may be), than flying one for her benefit, (in other words - being a person with a long term, upwardly mobile career in mind).

This whole argument is really very simple. Since there are numerous examples of fit, competent people in all trades in the same jobs under the same conditions as the unfit there can be only one reason why, (despite their protestations that they don't have the time... blah... blah... blah), they are even arguing the point. They simply don't want to. They don't want to expend the effort and energy. They are lazy, (remember - others are doing exactly the same as they are in all other aspects of their lives and working out... so they could work out too).

This then leads back to the "own benefit" issue. We have lazy people who are doing a job for their own benefit. That's a nice basis for people who are in leadership positions. Then we wonder why the Air Force "isn't what it used to be". Douglas Bader is spinning in his grave listening to the weakness of those who can't discipline themselves sufficiently to pass a little fitness test after what he went through to get back into a cockpit to risk his life _again_. Those of you who use him as an argument for your position that the fitness test is a bad thing need to look very hard at yourselves, (I know you won't - you are too self centered and arrogant - you don't understand the words commitment and integrity - you want the Ad Astra but you don't have the internal fortitude for the Per Ardua).

Mad Mark:

I read what you wrote. That's why I responded with:-

I'd rather not fly with someone who can barely pass a simple physicalI've added the bold to help you with you inability to read what was written. I acknowledged that you could pass the test... Had you read what I wrote rather than try to simply argue with me you wouldn't look as simple as you do right now. If your going to play "Internet Einstein" and point out where people "lack" when they didn't I'd suggest that you pick on people with a lower IQ than yourself. That way they might miss your inadequacies and not shine the bright light of comprehension on your blithering. :eek:

Hi AIDU :E

[Airborne Aircrew]

Hi AA. Look I did start to read your post but I noticed some paint drying on the wall near me so I

If you look carefully you notice that the paint has a message in it, (I painted it). It says

"FAT BASTIGE"

Have fun watching it... :D:D:D:D

[PTT]

Assuming that the motivation of their airships is to secure their salaries I doubt very much they are doing anything you are suggesting AA. :rolleyes:

[Airborne Aircrew]

Assuming that the motivation of their airships is to secure their salaries I doubt very much they are doing anything you are suggesting AA.Roll your eyes if you wish... But to shamelessly quote Wader:-

This is really like the Government of the day and the civil service. If the Government is preceived to be a short term one the civil service merely works at a slow pace to get its own way.Civil Service = Military... In this case...

You said:-

I doubt very much they are doing anything you are suggestingMy bold...

What you doubt is as much speculation as is your suggestion that they are trying to secure their salaries... Neither can be, with the information available, proven to be true. I will tell you though that you may never know the motivation of those above you and therefore, to even discuss your superior's motives is an exercise in futility - because they don't tell you things they don't think you need to know - and that's a fact. While it is expected of you, trusting your superiors, (especially their Airships), is fun to a point but you shouldn't base your career on them... ;)

It's funny... Getting fit is less painful than arguing the issue... Trust me, I've been unfit, fit, unfit etc. ad infinitum... It's easier to stay fit than to get fit... So, get fit once and Bingo... It's all easy after that - for minimal effort... :D:D:D:D:D

[buoy15]

Heights Good
Didn't you get an 'A' grade for grammar this year?
Seems everyone else did:ok:
Cornish
Excellent post!

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

AA,

As you are obviously the font of all knowledge with regards to current service requirements care to give your thoughts on the new CCS proposals :rolleyes:

"FAT BASTIGE"..............classic reversion to type, if you can't reason with it then simply insult it and I get the feeling that if AIDU was in the room as you typed your next move would have been to simply punch him :ugh:

[Wader2]

... But remember "The RAF can't make you do anything... But it can make you wish you had!"

Nonsense.

In act nonsense both ways.

First there are many instances where the RAF has tried but there are simply not enough people around with the time to police sanctions. gone are the days when a whole tranche of airmen were on jankers overseen by a bevvy of cops. The former are civilianised and the latter too.

And the other way? To quote a friend of mine from way back - you play ball with me and I'll stuff the bat right up . . .

There was a time when we had a sufreit of pilots (or thought we had) but a shortage of flying hours. As soon as one PVR'd he was stuck in the Sim or in Ops. The RAF really got their monies worth from these people. Strictly 9-5, worked by the book. Send him to fitness training and he would go, provided it was in the 9-5 and did not interfere with lunch. Now how to you propose to apply sanction and get productive work from this individual?

[day1-week1]

Just to clarify my orginal post, this has very little to do with fitness/'ability to do job', but more rank has its resposnsibilities as well as its perks. Flying pay aside, all aircrew are far better paid (due to rank) than the majoriy of the airforce and probably work the same if not less less hours. It is been decided that SNCO and O's should lead from the front etc, etc to earn that extra pay.

What is mildly interesting is that no-one even considered that point

[PTT]

probably work the same if not less less hours
Ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaaaaaaaaaaaa!

Nice one! :D

[Wader2]

all aircrew are far better paid (due to rank) than the majoriy of the airforce and probably work the same if not less less hours.

Actually it would be instructive to know the numbers of commissioned versus non-commissioned aircrew. Certainly as they are all senior to Cpls it is true that they are all paid more than airmen and JNCOs.

As for working the same or fewer hours, I'll bite.

On a ground tour, OOA, the longest I worked was 14 hour shift and about 56 hours per week.

One week, in an ordinary week, I only flew for 33 hours. Given the 2 hours before and one hour after flight (minimum) that pushed my working week to 55 hours. As that only took up 4 days I then did a 24 hour QRA standby which included a morning work on the sqn as well as crew rest.

There are trades in the Air Force that also work long hours and there are some, like on the Field Sqns that work longer when deployed.

The thibg with aircrew hours is they are variable as they depending on the engineering output and the tasking be it in war or training.