QRA Types

[Squirrel 41]

Well, after last week's fun and games, we can now add Typhoon F2 to the group of types starring in "look at me intercepting a Bear/Blackjack/Backfire etc etc" photos.

I wonderred how big this club is?

- Tornado F3 (F2 as well?)
- Phantom FGR1/FGR 2 (F-4J(UK) - or whatever the service designation was: BEagle?)
- Lightning F1/F2/F3/F6
- Hunter (Mks?)
- Javelin (Mks?)

S41

[Indicating Full]

VC10 - not seen the photos though.

[Regie Mental]

For the record, Phantom FG.1, not FGR.1. Did SHARs ever intercept?

[Flarkey]

VC10 - not seen the photos though.

http://www.arrse.co.uk/cpgn2/uploads/forums/1_449.jpg

[Northern Circuit]

I seem to recall SHARS getting in behind during the old JMC's back in the 80's

[ORAC]

Add Javelin: Tales of the Cold War. (http://www.ukauthors.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=6275)

[Squirrel 41]

Many thanks for all of these - presentation will be more historically accurate! :)

Anyone know the marks of Hunter / Javelin to pre-empt the question from pedant at the back? :p

Cheers,

S41

[ZH875]

And of course:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v604/ZH875/Bear.jpg

[Set Me Free]

Did the Victor?

[cornish-stormrider]

I could all but see the pilot of that delta hanging out ths side with a gat in his hand having a go at the red peril:E

[ORAC]

Did the Victor? Hundreds. The normal formation was a Tanker + Q2 (Q1 did the first intercept at the edge and headed for home, Q2 was scrambled to replace him and, hopefully, the tanker from BZ had got airborne in waaaaay less than 3 hours and escorted him north.

Bears invariably flew in pairs. Q2 would do an intercept on the lead aircraft and leave the tanker to shadow it when he went off after the second aircraft. When they were Bear Fs at low level finding the second aircraft could be tricky, but at least the tanker could keep track of the other one.

It usually meant using HF, and then long quiet periods when the fighter was plugged in.

So Victors, VC-10s and Tristars all got intercepts. Even if they got their knucles rapped when they went under a Bear to get the door numbers and the Russian embassy filed a complaint....

Not sure if the Shack ever got an intercept. I mean, he was stuck at about 5-7k ft and 140kts, but I suppose a Bear F might have got curious and gone to have a look at him... ;)

[Sempre 206]

Don't forget to add the Mighty Hunter (Nimrod - in all flavours) to the list.
And yes, you could hear the props.

[normally right blank]

Other nations chipped in too:
http://www.f-16.net/news_article2434.html

[Wensleydale]

The Shackleton did indeed see a good few Bears - usually as they flew past at great speed. There are one or two photos taken from the Shack in existance but I have not seen any with the grey lady and the red peril in the same picture. Perhaps the camera shutter speed was not fast enough to catch both in the same airspace.

ISTR that the 140kts of the Shack was for a lindholm gear drop and that usual cruise was 160Kts. Friday night cruise was 180Kts with a following wind. On transits from Neatishead back to Lossie into a headwind I remember seeing intercity 125s on the East Coast Line overtaking us. Mind you, we could do 13 hours on a full load of petrol (3284 Gallons?).

Forgive the thread steal - an old man's memories come trickling back.:)

[Squirrel 41]

Many thanks for all the helpful replies - and pictures of intercepts pre-Lightning (and not just BEAR) would be gratefully rec'd.

Wensleydale: thanks for that - wonderful vision of Shack losing to the train!

Cheers

S41

[Shackman]

Wensleydale obviously forgot the 400 gal overload tank for the bomb bay, which gave us 16+ hours (the longest I did in a Mk 2 was 16:35 but I don't think we had much left on landing - the Mk 3 could do 24 hours in the early days). However, whilst cruise was indeed 160kts, it was possible to get over 300kts straight and level with everything at max chat; add water meth (for 5 mins) and we got to 325kts in a trial with an AEW at Boscombe - didn't half surprise the Harvard who thought he had a nice easy target - although the noise level inside was impressive. Apparently as we went over BD at approx 300ft it was quite impressive outside as well judging from the spectators coming out of the woodwork!

Oh - and yes a Bear did easily overtake us when we were in cruise/AEW mode. I think in our case there were one or two photos taken privately, and of course those by the other crew!

PS - Vno was 300kts, but the boffin on board just kept saying go faster - so we did!

[Green Flash]

If I might air my Vulcan ignorance for a moment? In ZH's pic of the Vulc shadowing the Bear, the black & white, rectilinear colour scheme looks a one off and what is that box under the tail? First guess is some AAR thang but can some knowledgable type confirm or whatever please? Ta. :confused:

[Wensleydale]

We didn't have the bomb bay tank in the AEW 2 (at least when I was there in the early 80s). The bomb bay had been shortened to fit in the extra radar kit for the APS 20 leaving just 9 bomb bay stations. All we had in the bay were the extra luggage paniers if required and the flares, marker marines and lindolm kits. ISTR that we had to run 2 of the engines at a non efficient 2175 RPM to drive the radar because the generators did not have a constant speed unit, and even by throttling back the other 2 to cruise we only got 13 hours out of it. We could get a bit more by throttling back on 3 engines and using the back-up inverter (No 9?) for the radar, but that broke the radar if one of the generators decided not to play. The noise from the desynchronised engines was appauling! The longest shack sortie in my log book is 12hrs 55mins.

[kevrockjockuk01]

You are correct.
The Vulcan is one of the AAR fitted Vulcans of 50 sqn.
Kev :ok:

[ORAC]

Its the Vulcan B2K HDU mod. A Heath Robinson affair (sorry if that sounds insulting) added under the tail. So, in the photo, it's yet another tanker escorting the second Bear with the Q taking the photo.

http://www.airsceneuk.org.uk/oldstuff/2007/431falklands/vulcantanker.jpg

[Green Flash]

Thank you gents:ok::ok: Presume the colour scheme was to aid formating on the tanker?

[Geehovah]

The Tornado F2 never had a Q launch so the answer there is no. The F3 was the first QRA pic

[DHI]

And if you were lucky enough to do 10, you got a 10 Bear patch I believe. One of our instrutors at CFS Valley, Ex 43 with the initials of N.A. owned one if I recall rightly.

DHI
Sparrows 80-83

[BEagle]

Only 10?

Amateurs.........................

[Nil nos tremefacit]

There's a 10 Bear tie as well.

Victors, when I was on them, took off from Marham not BZN (not as much fuel as VC10/TriStar).

I'll bet Mike Jenvey will have photos of him shadowing a Bear.

I'd have to check my log book, but I think I only saw 3 Bears up close although we saw lots of lights and things at 3am. I saw the Northern Lights more often than Bears as a lot of the transits were carried out in the dark.

[55HTB]

Don't forget the good old Banana Jet!! I don't have the photo out here, but someone must have a copy - taken I think during a JMC in about 1988. Marvellous!!

[VictorPilot]

Is anyone still reading this thread? Lots of stories about TANSOR on Victors are about if anyone is interested. Go to "Were you ever on Victors" thread and ask!! Bob

[Manuel de Vol]

I'll bet Mike Jenvey will have photos of him shadowing a Bear.



Well if he's got such photos it's up to him (should he wish to do so) to post them.

"Why has that Bear got an emblem like a box spanner on the door? "... AEO: "That's the door emblem of the General in charge of an Air Army"

There was a long subsequent discussion (after a complaint) from the Russian embassy which cost us all our cameras ... well, all the cameras we (apparently) had with us. ;)

Jenvey didn't 'shadow' anything. On one occasion we were told to 'intedict' a bear.

Nobody could have accused Jenvey of thinking with 'the little head' - had they done so, they would've had to call him Einstein.

You may criticise Mike Jenvey for many things... but lack of balls isn't one of them.

There is a difference between 'interdict' and 'dick' Mike. ;)

[Pontius Navigator]

Well if he's got such photos it's up to him (should he wish to do so) to post them.

MJ regretably is unable to respond to this thread, or any other, as he has been cast into cyberspace after a spat with the management.

If however he reads this :}, I enjoyed the beers at Huntingdon.

[chiglet]

I was a Scopie at RAF Buchan in the early '60s and ISTR that the Q was Javelin FAW9 with a Hunter F6 backup. We also had Valliant tankers from Marham [I think]

[Art Field]

I have checked back in my log book and can find no record of Dragonfly sorties with the Valiant, AAR was in its infancy then but we may have flown a few. I have plenty of Victor1, Victor2 and VC10 intercepts, often left on our own with the pointy one having gone U/S. Great fun.

[NutherA2]

I was on 23 Sqn from 1961 to 63 at Coltishall & Leuchars, when the alert state was referred to as the “Unmentionable” as the code words (shhhh! Halyard & Fabulous) were classified. We flew the Javelin9R, but IIRC the alert aircraft were never fitted with the probe, so tankers weren’t involved; later maybe?
On 43 Sqn (1969 to 73) QRA/IAF was quite busy. Would my 13 Badgers, 8 Bears & 2 Bison have qualified for the 10 Bear badge or tie had they been invented by then? If so can I get one now?

[Gainesy]

What did Halyard and Fabulous mean?

They weren't on Q but, along with the Fins, a couple of Hawks with snappers in the back met the Bear flight I was on. I don't suppose the (Oxford UAS?) Bulldog that we nearly trampled counts though?

[Pontius Navigator]

I remember one day, late 80s I think, 8 Bear in one day. Did you need a door number tally to get 10 or intercepts with a pair counting 1.

Now on the 'Bear Hunters' I seem to recall we spent rather more time hunting than tracking :( although I still recall one sortie with an initial pickup at 200 miles and finally losing them at 220 miles almost 5 hours later.

[Lima Juliet]

Plenty of E-3D AWACS stuff

8 Bears in a day on QRA in an AWACS around 18 months ago (closest about 25 miles away - a few small dots!). I also have a nice picture of a Blackjack from the flight-deck of an E-3D during a nice "90" intercept (unsurprisingly the Blackjack had a bit more smash on than the AWACS - so it was just a fleeting photo opportunity!).

LJ:ok:

[BEagle]

On the VC10K, our unofficial rule was that "No photo = no claim" by day and "No nav lights = no claim by night".

By 'photo', I mean one taken from the flight deck which would be of use to the spooks*. A couple of dots (or 8.....) on the horizon certainly didn't count.

Why not 'door numbers'? To stop people getting in the way of the QRA(I) fighter crews, of course.

Leon, a slack 90 behind a receding target? Has all the hallmarks of a classic Neatishead intercept......:hmm:




* particularly of the Sovs smiling and gesturing when we showed them the Sun calendar!!

[Pontius Navigator]

* particularly of the Sovs smiling and gesturing when we showed them the Sun calendar!!

We had a May once, he wasn't smiling of gesturing. He was trying to hand us off as he rolled in to us at 400 feet. He hadn't cleared the turn. Fortunately for all concerned he pulled and we pushed.

[chiglet]

I remember [at Patrington....still an SAC Scopie] trying to tell the "Brass" that the "live Q" was the one on the Tanker.....not the three on the ground.... Eventually, they got the point :ok:...and I got a Rollicking :rolleyes:
"For not speaking up sooner"...that I was ignored, is beside the point.
Such is life....

[BEagle]

PN, your drivers should ALWAYS assume that the target will manoeuvre at will and not get themselves into the stupid situation you describe.

Sitting ahead of the 3-9 line in a large aeroplane is asking for trouble - if the target turns towards, you need to be able to manoeuvre to lag him. Hamper his mission and you invite an embassy complaint.

Some people would get carried away when seeing the Sovs. Such as the self-authorising Vulcan captain who authorised himself to 'locate and identify ENEMY shipping' in 1978! Then came back with F95 overhead photos of Kiev (I think) which filled about 4 sequential frames. He had no idea of the JSP318 rules, it seems and charged in bull-headed. Fortunately his auth sheet declaring war on Russia was spotted and destroyed; he had a rather one-sided chat with a Flt Cdr after he got back!

[Pontius Navigator]

PN, your drivers should ALWAYS assume that the target will manoeuvre at will and not get themselves into the stupid situation you describe.

Sitting ahead of the 3-9 line in a large aeroplane is asking for trouble - if the target turns towards, you need to be able to manoeuvre to lag him. Hamper his mission and you invite an embassy complaint.

You are of course quite right. It was a Rough old trip then, about the same year as your Vulcan captain. In this isntance we had already been jam in the sandwich between two May. One had then left was we eased in on the wrong side for more piccies. You should have heard the RT :bored:

On Kiev, or an other ship, we were allowed 3 passes. Once of our wet men had gone to the brand new Sea King and they went out stooging around Kiev. They made the 3 standard passes too but they changed film on each leg.

[matkat]

Buccaneer did Q at Laarbruch, but fortunately never launched as they were nuclear armed!!!!

[Romeo Oscar Golf]

And Canberra B(i)8's before them.

[Wader2]

matkat, I think you find that Buccaneers never did Q.

There is an unofficial (as far as I know) usage that QRA held by the bombers was always QRA whereas that held by the interceptors was Q. Both were QRA but Q was perhaps quicker both to say and to do.

A bomber QRA, while quick, would always stop short of the scramble and may well have had pauses at cockpit readiness. A Q scramble OTOH was often crew room to airborne with no intermediate readiness states.

[Romeo Oscar Golf]

You're almost certainly correct duckfoot, but I'm reacting to the thread title, and so probably is matkat despite his use of "Q":cool:

[newt]

The title says QRA Types so it should include the Jaguar! The only RAF single seat strike QRA or am I about to be corrected??

[Pontius Navigator]

newt, correct. It gave the sy guys heartache and palpitations as it rather made the two-man principle a little tricky once the aircraft taxied.

[The Oberon]

I have asked this before but what was the delivery protocol, procedure for a 177 armed single seater ?

[Pontius Navigator]

T O, I think you will need to reword your question.

Do you mean how was security maintained before a scramble or how it would be handled after the scramble? Or something else?

[The Oberon]

I have always understood that one of the reasons for the two man rule was to prevent someone "going rogue" and delivering, even if a recall had been sent. How was this dealt with in a single seater ?

[newt]

Fortunately it was never done for real!


So we will never know

[Pontius Navigator]

As mentioned earlier TO, that question certainly taxed the minds of the human reliability experts. As with other purely British controlled systems, NATO always had issues of ultimate control. Would we go it alone and effectively force the nuclear issue?

Of course the Jaguar was not the only singlle-seat strike aircraft on QRA in NATO.

The main precaution was control inside the gate.

now I am speculating but once that gate was opened, if the aircraft received a scramble order, unlike Strike Command, distance from take-off to target was so short that launch was unlikely to be ordered with out release too.

In the event that there was a hold post gate opening then I believe other physical restraints were available to the fore commander.

Once airborne then it would have been strictly one man one bomb. There was no magic permissive action link as with US weapons and Dr Strangeglove. We could not afford the technology nor did we think that available technology would hae been sufficiently robust.

[Gainesy]

How was this dealt with in a single seater ?

Amply demonstratrated on an unsuspecting Steve Griggs in a Jaguar by a Wildenrath Phantom.:uhoh:

[KiloB]

Interesting point since the incorrect release was by a two seater!

KB

[Wholigan]

distance from take-off to target was so short


Not so some of our targets from bruggen. Some were a VERY long way away!

"You can have my egg"

;)

[Pontius Navigator]

Wholigan, distance is relative, now I call Ballykelly to Istanbul, via Kiev, a VERY VERY long way :}

Seriously, the distance from dispersal to go line in most cases for the V-force was further than your targets. Like the V-force I am sure you planned to recover somewhere.

[Manuel de Vol]

It would perhaps be inappropriate to discuss targets - even so long after we had them.

I know F-A about Jagwahs and their targets, but I assume that the crews (those who might be required to drop nukes) were assessed in a similar manner to the rest of us.

Yes, we were cleared, but the clearances weren't based solely on who we were sleeping with - or on whether that person was of the same sex.

The people who operated nuclear armed aircraft were expected to be (and the clearance attempted to prove that they were) 'reliable'.

I didn't want to go to war - had I wanted to go to war, I would perhaps have unsuitable.

I didn't want to kill many thousands of people - Again, had I done so, I would have been unsuitable.

If, however, you (Soviet bloc, in my day) intended to come to the UK and drop nukes on us (me, my friends and family) then I was quite prepared to go over and bring a little sunshine (a whole bucket full) into your life.

Deterrents work if the people you use them against believe that if they start a nuclear war, you are prepared to retaliate. They (it seems) believed that and both I and several hundred of my colleagues were prepared to retaliate.

That may be (in part) why the deterrent worked.

Yes, we had a 'two man principle' - my co-pilot held a gun on me when I went up the stepladder with my key to work on the bomb ... Silly, really - He didn't know what I was doing and anyway, if I was going to fly there (and perhaps get my arse shot off) why would I want to go with a dud?

'Two man principle'? - Sounds good (politically.)

A 'one man principle' works just as well if you pick the right guys.

[Pontius Navigator]

M de V, my post was based on an article previously published in both popular and academic press. Would you like the target list? Starts with A. The Jaguar target I didn't mention began with N and was used in the Weapons Employment Course. It was unclassified even at the time. If you sat on a big juicy airfield the otherside of the IGB you were a target!

There have been several articles and there is the parallel history project.

[matkat]

Wader, not really sure of your point, as when I was at Laarbruch (XV 1978-81) it was called QRA, 2 week stints behind the wire!! can still remember the boredom.

[Pontius Navigator]

matkat, I believe the point being made was that bombers and fighters both did QRA but that bomber pukes called it QRA and fighter jocks called it Q.

The distinction was meaningless but just one of those habits that we garage mechanics adopted.