Cold War white elephant (Merged)

[RichardIC]

http://www.mod.uk/NR/rdonlyres/2DA55014-3293-469B-8ABA-BD23ACB18F1F/0/Typhoon2.jpg

[chiglet]

Which one, left or right?
watp,iktch

[Alf Aworna]

And the significance of the TSR2 piccie is........???

[coolblackcat]

And the significance of the TSR2 piccie is........???
It's ugly.

Soviet contries have never really had a good taste (just look at their chicks :ooh:)

But a machine doesn't need to be handsom to be able to work (Goes for the chicks too).

[sitigeltfel]

I wonder if they tried the old, "I'll keep throttling back until the pesky Brit falls out of the sky" trick.

Might not work with the Typhoon.

[Fox2long]

But who took the photo?? (Typhon and bear that is).

[BOAC]

If you scan through this forum and look at the various threads, I would hazard a guess that the support tanker snapped it.:)

OTOH, they might just have had two serviceable 'Q' ships......................

[Snapshot]

All over Sky News today. The No2 took the pic! "Two Typhoons from Coningsby scrambled to intercept Bear on heading for UK airspace!" They also mentioned it was only a week or two that they had taken over QRA! They also made assumptions that it might be to shut up the anti Typhoon brigade in showing the mighty RAF protecting our airspace with new shiny jet but also mentioned the MoD were reluctant to release the images!
Conspiracy? hahaha!
Either way who cares? It was a nice piccie and one we have all seen so many times before with with awesome images of Lightnings, then Phantoms et el so guess we need a Typhoon for the wall in the OM too?:bored:
Awesome stuff!
Snaps

[Melchett01]

Quote:
And the significance of the TSR2 piccie is........???
It's ugly.
Soviet contries have never really had a good taste (just look at their chicks )
But a machine doesn't need to be handsom to be able to work (Goes for the chicks too).

So that's where all our TSR2s went. And I thought we scrapped them ! But I will give you the thing about looks and getting the job done - why would you have a Ferrari when you can have a Lada, or why settle for Claudia Scheiffer when Jade Goody does the same things.:\

If it looks right, then it probably is right. And that also works for ISS too I found out :p

[coolblackcat]

The Spanish news is constantly talking about all these Russian "intruding aircraft" (their words). They look at it like a threat to the rest of Europe, and suggest that Russia is planning against us...
But the Spanish are quite paranoic; for example, they are very anti-american, and constantly suggest the existance of US Government conspiracies.

just giving you a small taste of Europe's Private Thirld World Country

[Melchett01]

And talk of the devil, the very same item on BBC News - thought the Russian air show footage was quite good. Firing flares during a formation break was quite ballsy though, plenty of scope for cocking up there.

But the BBC website item of the same story states we have ordered 144 Typhoons ...... I thought it was 232 ...... has there been a decision whilst I've been hiding away in my office under a pile of paperwork for the past few weeks? However, I'm sure the revelation that the Typhoon can accelerate from "standing to take-off in under seven seconds" will have the Russians quaking in their early morning vodkas!

[ShyTorque]

One big difference from the days of the previous interceptor (Aaah, the Lightning, don't count those MRCA things) is that the Typhoon pilots can stay on station long enough to point at their watches and wave goodbye to the Bear crew. Rather than vice versa.

Tony Blair said the cold war was over....... some of us didn't believe it.

[MrBernoulli]

I said Tony Blair was/is a **** ...... I still beleive it!

[Lazer-Hound]

The Spanish news is constantly talking about all these Russian "intruding aircraft" (their words). They look at it like a threat to the rest of Europe, and suggest that Russia is planning against us...
But the Spanish are quite paranoic; for example, they are very anti-american, and constantly suggest the existance of US Government conspiracies.

just giving you a small taste of Europe's Private Thirld World Country

Just as well they limit the US military presence in their country to one major fleet base and 2 airbases, then.

[L J R]

I thought the Bear was on the way to Fairford for the Tattoo, and it had a confliction on the ILS. Shot taken from the Caravan as they both went around.....

[Razor61]

So will the yanks be fielding their F-15's back at Keflavik now then or are they still going to do Air Defence exercises 'now and then'.

[ORAC]

http://d.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/uc/20070820/lprc070821.gif

[EODFelix]

Obviously you've never been to Odessa matt ;) Krasivaya

[27mm]

Interesting to see that it's an 11 Sqn jet, when I thought it was 3 Sqn that was holding Q.....

[Mad_Mark]

Tony Blair said the cold war was over....... some of us didn't believe it.

Tony Bliar said lots of things that many of us didn't believe :hmm:

MadMark!!! :mad:

[Zedzerone]

Interesting to see that it's an 11 Sqn jet, when I thought it was 3 Sqn that was holding Q.....


In theory a Sqn allocated the QRA role will use its own a/c. In reality the sqn uses any availabe serviceable a/c that can fulfil that role, from any source on the station, including other sqn's. I am sure there are plenty of other reasons too!

[GeeRam]

Interesting to see that it's an 11 Sqn jet, when I thought it was 3 Sqn that was holding Q.....

Fitting really as 11 Sqn were the last to hold the single seat QRA almost 20 years ago....:E

Dropping into sad geek mode, 20 years ago today was the Last, Last Lightning show at Binners.........:eek:

20 years........feeling a tad old now at that thought.....and such a lovely summers day it was too..........:}

[Snapshot]

GeeRam
20 years! WOW! Know what you mean mate! I was there too!
The rain was hideous! I 'think' this 30 sec utube clip is from that day?
Always wanted to see if anyone captured the singleton Lightning
along the runway in the rain near the end of the show?
Either on film or video?
As a hungry photographer, usually up for anything to 'get the shot' even I thought it too wet to get the camera out! It was a glorious sight though and ive always regretted not having the 35mm ready! I wonder if this clip (at the end) is from that show? What do you think?
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=iZd4Q6LMQqo
Snaps

[ORAC]

Old? I controlled the last Lightning PI sortie out of Wattisham. They flew sorties up to midnight. Then, in the morning, they towed them all down to the fire dump. :{

Then I controlled the last Lightning PI sortie out of Binbrook.

I also tried to arrange to control the last F4 PI sortie out of Leuchars, they did take off last but landed before the previous pair, so I'm not sure if that one counts....

I was at Alice for the final F4 flypast in the Falklands. Low cloud base, they came up the hill, rolled and pulled, and went over with just the canopies sticking out of the bottm of the cloud base. Went down to MPA the next day to try and get the FI crests and names off the jets, but the ground crew had put pick-axes through them all. :suspect:

Old indeed. :sad:

[SUPER JOLLY GREEN]

This could be the most expensive PR stunt since Spirit of Adventure!!!

[sprucemoose]

PR stunt?

Hang on a minute Jolly Green - lots of people have spent many years slagging off the Typhoon for being a "Cold War relic" because there's no need to intercept Russian Bears anymore.

Well, what do you know? The Typhoon force gets placed on QRA and actually does the job that the aircraft was originally designed to do - despite 11 Sqn's current work to also get the aircraft fit for ground attack duties in places like Afghanistan - and they get slagged off!

With that kind of logic...

[DarkBlueLoggie]

Got to say that I've never been against the numbers of Typhoon purchased, but it seems we never know what twists and turns the world will take over the next 20-30 years. It seems there may well be very much a need for them.

As someone only operating on the fringes of aviation, is the old Soviet red star on the fin just there as this a/c been dragged out of mothballs, or is it making a comeback on Russian a/c?

[scribbler614]

In Friday's incident 2 x Typhoons were only scrambled from Coningsby after two pairs of F3s had already made the trip from Leeming, and pottered about the North Atlantic with the Bears for some time until they ran short of fuel, I'm told.
Strangely, the MOD didn't feel the need to publish pretty pictures of F3s.
You'd almost think someone was anxious to show off the Typhoon doing its job.
''SEE?!!! SEE!???? THEY'RE TRYING TO KILL US ALL, SIR!!! OF COURSE WE NEED TRANCHE 3!!!! Now just sign the contract here Mr Browne.'

[ORAC]

Menzies Campbell, leader of Britain's opposition Liberal Democrats, expressed concern about photos of the Russian bombers that were posted on the Defense Ministry Web site.

"These pictures convey disturbing echoes of the Cold War," he said. "They emphasize the importance of vigilance, the protection of our air space and the effectiveness of the response of the Royal Air Force."

[GeeRam]

I wonder if this clip (at the end) is from that show? What do you think?

Yup, looks like it, it's not John Fynes solo as it's an F.6 so it must be one of the F.6's from the nine-ship after the formation split and returned for run and breaks etc.....:ok:

[Lord_Flashheart]

PR stunt?


Maybe not - but give BAE's track record in, lets say, marketing its products using 'overseas creative accounting procedures' involving Sheikhs, hookers, and Harrods, perhaps we should be on the lookout for any Bear pilots driving top-of-the-range Ferraris in Chelsea in the near future????:}

[trap one]

I wonder if all the rest of the cold war peace dividend will have to be clawed back. All those bases closed and/or placed on care and maintenance, ships bought/returned to service, Regt's de- amalgamated? Will we be seeing all those returned to use/full numbers with numbers of personnel brought back to previous levels?
Or will we be expecting our lads and lasses to do this and deploy?:ugh:

[SUPER JOLLY GREEN]

To quote scribbler614:
"In Friday's incident 2 x Typhoons were only scrambled from Coningsby after two pairs of F3s had already made the trip from Leeming, and pottered about the North Atlantic with the Bears for some time until they ran short of fuel, I'm told.
Strangely, the MOD didn't feel the need to publish pretty pictures of F3s.
You'd almost think someone was anxious to show off the Typhoon doing its job.
''SEE?!!! SEE!???? THEY'RE TRYING TO KILL US ALL, SIR!!! OF COURSE WE NEED TRANCHE 3!!!! Now just sign the contract here Mr Browne.' "

Whilst this may be the Typhoon "doing the job it was originally designed to do", it would appear that this was a photo opportunity too good to miss. Surely the presence of 4 x F3 had neutralised the threat.
I wish 11 Sqn well with preparing their birds for Afghanistan, Lord knows we need more Close Air Support assets.
However, I am totally convinced that some of the Typhoon money could have been better spent on newer Helicopters and Transport Aircraft.

[PingDit]

Strongly suspect covert meeting between both chiefs of Staff in order to bolster respective defence budgets!

PD
:suspect:

[sprucemoose]

"Surely the presence of 4 x F3 had neutralised the threat." Well, the photos would suggest otherwise, because the Bear hadn't turned round and gone home.

Crikey, and I thought it was just the journos who were supposed to be cynical out there; Flasheart - I don't think BAE actually has the decision on Coningsby taskings just yet!

[SUPER JOLLY GREEN]

Quote: "the Bear hadn't turned round and gone home"

Maybe the Bear crew were too busy taking photographs of the shiny, pointy little jet!

[c-bert]

Maybe the Bear crew were too busy taking photographs of the shiny, pointy little jet!

I think in this day and age they can do that just as effectively at Fairford!

[scribbler614]

I'm not meaning to sneer at 3 and XI Sqns (although it would take more than a sneer from the likes of me to wipe the 'Typhoon grins' off their faces).
Just made me chuckle that MOD were so keen to pump these pictures out, and that they only mentioned that it was a bit of a supporting role to the F3s after quite a lot of questioning.
:ok:

[Capt H Peacock]

So, knock down the wall, get the West to turn its swords into ploughshares, and then pour billions into redeveloping the Soviet economy and natural energy resources, then turn off the tap, kick out the decedent bourgeois, watch with scadenfreude as the West's budget forces are defeated by well funded ragheads, then put the wall back up.

Kick the West's butt in Cold War II.

Could be the greatest confidence trick in history.

[serf]

How many bears do the Russians have?

[Biggus]

The Russian woods are full of them.......

[Tonkenna]

Shame the news papers (and those that gave them the story) seem to have forgotten that "No one kicks ass without tanker gas"!!!

Tonks :rolleyes:

[ShyTorque]

Shame the news papers (and those that gave them the story) seem to have forgotten that "No one kicks ass without tanker gas"!!!

'Cept the Russians? They seemed to get here OK....

[Arclite01]

Question - So how far do they have to penetrate UKADR before we actually decide - that is far enough and stop them (Shoot down) ?

and does any UK politician really have the guts to make the decision, and by the time they made the decision would it be too late anyway ?

And does the Bear still have a stand off capability (Kangaroo ?) anyway so would not actually have to enter UKADR to launch weapons.................. ?

Just obvious questions to me......

Arc

[BossEyed]

In today's Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/08/22/nraf222.xml), in between discussion of Typhoons and Bears, was this snippet:

Officers at the Defence Science and Technology Laboratory, a secret scientific establishment, said diesel electric submarines were believed to have been spotted close to British shores.

With more than 90 per cent of Britain's trade travelling by sea the country's economy would be extremely vulnerable to the submarines, which are hard to detect.

Lt-Cdr Robin Burns, an analyst from the laboratory, said: "Just one torpedo will do an awful amount of damage to our shipping and economy."


Some jaded PPRuNers may now think that just perhaps, in the absence of a crystal ball, spending money on this wasn't all that crazy after all...

http://www.royal-navy.mod.uk/upload/img_400/merlin1.jpg

[Double Zero]

Aren't Backfires, Blackjacks etc a bit more worrying, if resurrected ?

As to Kangaroo, I'm no expert but having seen the size of that thing ( and age ) wouldn't it be carried at least partly externally - Bear experts welcome to jump here - , so visible, and anyway even the shameful UK defences ( though not quite as bad as made out ) could probably get that one if ignoring the possible nuclear contamination side of any debris.

I suspect there are much more modern & efficient nasty stores to worry about, so the age old snag remains, deciding from intelligence etc if the delivery aircraft means business & is ok to shoot down...

[Fox_4]

Surely rather than shoot them down we should roll inverted, get into a 4g negative dive and give them a salute while using a retro polaroid camera?

Rock star!

Pretty Typhoon pics though. Timings everything I suppose. Typhoon QRA once in a blue moon was always going to get the juicy intercepts. ;)

Oh well. Back to the lazy boy and Discovery channel.

[vecvechookattack]

Its got to find the submarine first..... Which so far it has failed to do

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Vec...........

And your credentials are.....................:rolleyes:

[Double Zero]

If you're referring to that oh so realistic scene in 'Top Gun', snag is those cameras were auto-focus with no over-ride - so the result would be a nice shot of the inside of one's own canopy with a blurred 'bogie' in the vague background at best...:}

[coolblackcat]

Never seen that movie... Haven't lived yet...

Fitting really as 11 Sqn were the last to hold the single seat QRA almost 20 years ago....:E

Dropping into sad geek mode, 20 years ago today was the Last, Last Lightning show at Binners.........:eek:

Lightnings had about 15 minutes of fuel for each QRA, I've been told. This can't be true! They wouldn't even have time to reach the enemy!
can anyone verify this?

[Razor61]

We're buggered then if all we can manage is one or two Nimrods to be airborne at any one time...

[ORAC]

Forget Kangaroos, Kingfish etc, the only Bears the Russians still have in service are the Bear Hs (about 60 IIRC) which carry the AS-15 Kent ALCM with a launch range of about 3000km. Which is one reason they stopped coming, they can launch those in the circuit as soon as they get airborne.

Their recent sorties are purely of political consequence, not military.

[Maple 01]

And they had to mod all the H-16s under treaty so they couldn't carry...er 16 of the bloody things..any chance they were naughty and kept the racks? Naah wouldn’t be like the Sovs would it?

Anyone want to say HomoSovieticus isn’t back?

[Kolibear]

Is it true that you can hear a Bear's propellors from inside your own jet?

[Si Clik]

VVHA
Again your posts fail to capture reality.
Without being specific we have found many submarines - all different colours too - diesel and nuclear.
In fact we have embarrassed many a submariner with all sorts of current tech, that we have clearly proven the unassaible status of Merlin HM as an ASW as well as ASUW platform.
Si

[diginagain]

You'll be able to hear them in MoD Main Building, ere long.

[Magic Mushroom]

the only Bears the Russians still have in service are the Bear Hs

I assume you mean 'with a stand off capability'. The still have Bear F and Bear Js, and the former is also flown by the Indians.

Regards,
MM

[VitaminGee]

The Colombians have a more efficient way of conducting ASW - get 'em bfore they enter the water (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/915059.stm) :rolleyes::D

[Schnowzer]

It always used to scare the pants off me when you got abeam the props on the intercept. Seemed like a bezillion counter-roating parts that were ready to be chucked in your cockpit. Sounded quite nice too until the pesky blighter started the min speed climb and you fell back to earth, all embarrased in your shiny pursuit ship.

Without starting a major conspiracy theory, maybe they didn't take piccies of the F3 coz they already have some. Most of the F1,2,3,4 etc mates have them coming out of their ears.

[Art Field]

Kolibear, you most certainly can. Indeed you can hear them from some distance away. I wonder what effect it has on the crews ears in the long term.

Incidently Tonkenna, if there was tanker support there seem to be a lot of pointy jobs up there to do the job. Was everybody trying to get in on the act?.

[Gainesy]

I wonder what effect it has on the crews ears in the long term.


Probably the same as the Shacklebomber. "Eh? Half past two."

When I flew in it, they briefed me to try not to stare at the props, put you in a trance. Very comfortable beast and the in-flight rations were a gazillion per cent better than the RAF's White Horror Box, with a lot of the fresh content grown/raised on the base's farm.

Bit of a Greenpeace quandary then.:)

[Wycombe]

I'd imagine the noise made by a Bear would be similar to that of the AN-22 freighter, as I think they have the same massive engines and contra-rotatating props.

If anyone has ever heard the deep resonating drone of the AN-22, it is a sound like no other, very distinctive.

[VitaminGee]

What's the difference between a Bear and a Bison?

You can't wash your hands in a Bear. :rolleyes:

[I know the drill - hat, coat, door, TAXIIII!]

[DEL Mode]

Is There Room In A Typhoon Cockpit For A Camera?

Or was it all done with Photoshop?

Good Job The Pilot Did Not Drop His Map

[Modern Elmo]

With more than 90 per cent of Britain's trade travelling by sea the country's economy would be extremely vulnerable to the submarines, which are hard to detect.

What trade is that, rough trade on cruise ships? What hard goods does the EU provinz formerly known as UK export nowadays, anyhow?


Lt-Cdr Robin Burns, an analyst from the laboratory, said: "Just one torpedo will do an awful amount of damage to our shipping and economy."

It might help the British economy if the Rooskies torpedoed ships bringing in east Asian imports. Oh, I meant cars and electronics and so on, not preocious loverly Asians.

[Liobian]

I recall reading somewhere that you can hear an overflying Bear from inside a submerged submarine !!!: ooh:

[MReyn24050]

A flight in a Bear!
http://www.aviapedia.com/videos/bombers/Tu-95/Tu-95_Engels.wmv

[TEEEJ]

DoubleZero wrote:

"Aren't Backfires, Blackjacks etc a bit more worrying, if resurrected"

They never went away. The Backfires don't have the probes for refuelling under treaty conditions. The Backfire would need to refuel quite a bit to get down near the UK.

The Blackjacks never went away either. The Russians eventually got the Ukrainian Air Force Blackjacks back and placed them in their inventory. The Blackjacks that were in partial build are/were being completed. At least one modernised Blackjack has entered service in the last couple of years with more to be completed.

The Russians flew two Blackjacks down off the east coast of the UK back in Feb 2001. F.3s were sent up to do the intercept. No nice piccies due to it being winter pitch black. The Blackjacks also did sorties last year into North American ADIZ.

Those Bear Hs are all new-build airframes from the 80s. The last one came off the production line in the early 1990s. Lots of money put into the fleet of Blackjacks and Bear Hs over the years and in their weapons too. The Russians have been working on new long-range ALCMs such as the Kh-101.

The Bear H can carry the ALCMs in the bomb-bay on a rotary launcher. It can also carry the weapons on pylons. At one point the Tu-95MS carried the designations Tu-95MS6 and Tu-95MS16 under treaty conditions. This has now been dropped and all can technically carry 16 of the AS-15 Kent ALCMs.

[TEEEJ]

Arclite01 wrote
Question - So how far do they have to penetrate UKADR before we actually decide - that is far enough and stop them (Shoot down) ?
They can legally go up to the 12nm limit. No one is going to shoot one of those Bear Hs down under peace-time conditions. The Bear Hs is a stand-off air-launched cruise missile carrier able to launch from thousands of kms away.

[M609]

"Aren't Backfires, Blackjacks etc a bit more worrying, if resurrected"

...and they have ventured past the North Cape a lot the last month. (At least the Backfires)
The Backfires are not that uncommon in the North.

[PlasticCabDriver]

The Backfires don't have the probes for refuelling under treaty conditions

Whether under treaty or not, looks like a refuel probe to me:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f5/Tu-22Mprobe.JPG/800px-Tu-22Mprobe.JPG

[M609]

The ones not on the scrapheap does not

Taken last week north of Norway

http://vol.no/Nyhetsbilder/images/2007/8/QRA_-_foto_331_og_332_skvadr.jpg

[PlasticCabDriver]

Although I appreciate it is from Wiki:

As built, the Tu-22M has provision for a retractable in-flight refueling probe in the upper part of the nose. This was allegedly removed as a result of the SALT negotiations, although it can be easily reinstated if needed,

[Squirrel 41]

Teej is quite right, they can come to 12nm - as we can go to their 12 nm limit.

(Anorak on...)

And wiki is probably right - but the difference in the photos is that the knackered one with the probe is a Tu-22M(2, I think) - BACKFIRE-A/B and the one M609 has kindly put up is Tu-22M3 BaCKFIRE-C, minus probe in accordance with treaty obligations (CFE, maybe?)

(Anorak off... and breath!)

S41

[TEEEJ]

PCD wrote:

Whether under treaty or not, looks like a refuel probe to me:

That is 'Red53' pictured at Riga, Lithuania. It is a Tu-22M1 Backfire A. This was one of a handful of pilot production aircraft built before the main production Tu-22M2s Backfire Bs entered service in the 1970s. The airframe was part of a Soviet technical school and left there after the Russians pulled out of the Baltic States.

The only type in service with the Russian Air Force/Navy are the Tu-22M3s Backfire Cs. The only other variant in service are a handful of Backfire Ds (Tu-22MR) built for recce. Easy to recognise the Backfire A/B from the C/D as the C/D has the raked air-intakes. The Ukranians have retired all of their fleet.

The Russians would have to tear up SALT/START/SORT etc if they wanted to re-instate the Backfire Cs with an air-refuelling capability.

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

The Russians might argue that the US has already torn up "SALT/START/SORT" by the intention to field an anti ballistic missile system. The ABM will be a force multiplier for residual Blue forces, even if that isn't the intention.

[Jetex Jim]

"Tony Blair said the cold war was over....... some of us didn't believe it."

Cold war my a***se, for my money its a case that now the RAF finally has its new toy the Russians are just seeing how many they can flush, how soon they show up, how long they can hang around before running home to the tanker...
And thus build a picture of just how good this new one is, and a lot of the interest there may be for purely commercial reasons, they having a few competitive products of their own on sale. What better way to test the authenticity of those sales brochure claims for availabilty etc.
Oh and by the way make a note of these frequencies and RF power levels Dimitri, just in case we ever do get serious.