The military medical system, does it suck the big one?

[shawtarce]

It’s been over 20 weeks since I had an MRI scan on my back.

Until this morning, the civilian surgeon had been unable to offer a diagnosis because the military had managed to lose the copy of my MRI scan.

This morning, I had a duplicate of the scan in my hand, only to find that the surgeon I was seeing had left the NHS. I was to be looked after by another surgeon, but the next available appointment was not until the 1st of October, some 26 weeks after the scan had been taken.

I fully accept that I’m just a random aircrew bloke with a prolapsed disk, and because of this, my colleagues have had to fill the gap, that since December 06, I've been unable to fill. They are working harder than they should have to, because, even as a member of Her Majesty’s Forces, having served over 20 years (man and boy), I’m just another NHS statistic. As bitter and twisted as I’ve become, I really can’t believe that we are treated exactly the same as Joe Bloggs .

I dread to think how they are treating the guys and girls, who have been injured, severely or otherwise, proudly serving their country overseas.

Bring back military hospitals!

Loyalty works two ways guys.

2 years, 9 months and 5 days remaining ………………….

:mad:

[Talk Wrench]

Had a prolapsed disc earlier this year. It happened whilst working on the avionic rack of a 767 in Frankfurt.

My basic level of German health insurance (deducted at source and very similar to the Nat Ins mechanism) got me sorted out and back to work within 5 weeks. That included an MRI scan, 3x radiographer supervised spinal injections direct to the disc, (one a week for three weeks.) physio and follow up appointments. The kind kraut insurance also paid me 1200 euro for the inconvenience.

Shawt,

The NHS is a dead parrot and the way you have been treated is a perfect example of the Broken Covenant.

I banged out of the UK 5 years ago and have never looked back.

There is a better everything in the rest of Europe i say.

Good luck with your back.

Talk

[Wader2]

Years ago at ISL the doc wheeled me into the dentists for an X-ray of my vertebrae. Then he fixed me an appointment at the local hospital and the whole thing was done and dusted in about 3 days.

Progress.

And later the Veteran's Agency gave me a nice fat cheque.

[Gainesy]

If their Airships are so keen on incorporating civvy corporate bolleaux, perhaps they should also look at BUPA?

Ah, no, that one works. And costs.

[Wader2]

Gainsy, actually Beneden Healthcare is a better option. This is an NHS assist rather than an NHS replacement.

You start with the NHS then go to Beneden where the NHS cannot handle the problem in time. It is about £10 per month for the whole family.

Once you are a member then you can also take up Best Health at £31 per month (top benefit) and they pay out £75 per day for hospital visits, £400 pa for dentistry and optical, £600 for chiropody and osteopathy etc.

Members of the services and families are eligble. For my back I just went to the chiropractor, no doctor, then submitted the bill. Money straight in the bank.

[TalkTorqueTorc]

A guy I used to work with had a hernia. The med centre sent him to the local NHS hospital to get it sorted, the hospital kept postponing his appointments and giving him the runaround. When he did eventually get an appointment the doctor he saw admitted that the military take a low priority because if it doesn't get sorted, eventually the RAF will pay for it to be sorted privately.

This is a hospital in the north east of scotland and I don't know whether this is an NHS-wide thing or just them.

Nice to know that we matter so much isn't it.

[AR1]

Back in the old days...

My wife suffered a similar problem in 1993, they scanned her on a brand new MRI within a couple of weeks, and gave injections. The injections didnt work, and as I was due to be discharged, they gave her a surgery date almost immedietely, so we weren't left to the NHS.

Thank you Wroughton, or whatever housing estate you are now. Or at least the people that staffed it.:ok:

[MarkD]

Perhaps one of the newspapers might be persuaded to run a weekly column highlighting members or units of HM Forces in such situations to embarrass the individuals in MOD or other departments who permit this kind of runaround in matters of medical, taxation, accommodation etc. Not in some kind of "pity-the-poor-Tommy-give-'im-a-copper" way, more like a "get-this-sorted-action-this-day" style. God knows there's enough fodder in the Mil Forum and ARRSE to write 52 columns a year.

[Kitbag]

Perhaps one of the newspapers might be persuaded to run a weekly column highlighting members or units of HM Forces in such situations to embarrass the individuals in MOD or other departments who permit this kind of runaround in matters of medical, taxation, accommodation etc. ...God knows there's enough fodder in the Mil Forum and ARRSE to write 52 columns a year.


Sounds just right for J Clarkson esq.

[Wensleydale]

May I just add that the treatment that I had for my current medical problem has been first rate. The staff at Selly Oak were most efficient and friendly. My concern has been the wait between initial diagnosis of a condition last year, various tests and the recent treatment for my problem (that took all of 10 minutes).

As with everything in the NHS, priority has been given to life threatening conditions and my problem was not seen to be in that category. The fact that it was potentially career threatening did not seem to be given any urgency.

It appears that the MOD is prepared to risk shortening the careers of trained aircrew (at great expense) rather than invest in swifter (private) medical care. However they are doing little to slow down the PVR rate and therefore why should they bother with those rarities amongst us who wish to stay but may not be able to do so because of late treatment of a deteriorating medical condition and subsequent permanent loss of flying med cat?

Bottom line - I have my well drawn out medical history logged. My solicitor will get the details should I have to leave early and lose pension due to tardy treatment.

[Almost_done]

In 2003 I came back from a climbing exped with a hacking cough, went to see Stn quack, sent off to NHS Hospital for chest X-Ray, Radiographer told me to make an appointment with my Doc afterwards.
Following morning Medical center phoned to say they'd made an appointment for me to see Senior Quack the following PM...............hummm now I was concerned.

Following day saw the senior Quack, his opening line was Ah come in Cpl A_D sit down, you may have cancer!!!!!!:sad: I was a tad taken back by this approach.

Any ways I was referred back to a wonderful NHS Hospital the Churchill, in under 2 weeks from the 1st X-Ray I was seen in the Harefield Hosp, 4 weeks from the X-Ray I was under the knife getting the Tumor out, 1 month later I was back at the Harefield and I found out then that it was benign...................:O

In that time I was under the care of the NHS, I can't say a bad thing about the care I recieved, well apart from getting myself off the gurney and onto the operating slab and no pre-op medication!

When I came back to the Unit Medical center for a follow up medical before I started back at work I found the Quacks discussing my case in the corridor by the open reception area, not a happy chappie.

So for me the NHS came through in spades, I know it is a singular case but I was more than happy with the outcome. Oh as an aside i can if I feel the need get in toouch with the chest unit, bypassing the Medical Center I feel it worthwhile, so far I haven't, touch wood I'll never need to again.

P.S. Never smoked in my life.

[shawtarce]

I started this thread last night, after a bottle of fermented fruit juice, and I just wanted to add a couple of lines.

This rant is definitely not aimed at our medical personnel. The docs, physiotherapists and rehab instructors at the Lincolnshire training base where I am currently detached have been absolutely first rate.

The rant is aimed at THE SYSTEM.

If we are destined to use the NHS, because it’s cheaper than having our own hospitals, then at least let us have some system of priority. Surely we deserve that.

I feel a thirst coming on. :\

2 years, 9 months and 4 days remaining ………………….

[Roadster280]

What SYSTEM? There isn't one. It was removed on "cost" grounds.

What cost now? Military blokes being screwed around, people leaving in droves, recruiting down the crapper, it's a disgrace, not a SYSTEM.

When I joined, one of the "benefits" was free medical treatment for life in a Military hospital. Hmmm...

Does it "suck the big one" - no. There isn't anything to do the sucking.

[Mmmmnice]

Shawt - not sure if this will help but........I had a prolapsed disc about 5 years ago - referred by civvy locum, got scanned at Frimley in fairly short order. Told to come back for further scan in 6 months (mentioned having paid own money for chiropractor whilst waiting for scan appt - orth consultant says "you can try alternative therapies if you've want but it should get better of it's own accord" He also took the opportunity to point out all the age-related wear&tear on my entire spine, including v flat discs in neck from too much NVG time (my opinion). 6 months/scan No:2 later there was no sign of the prolapse! back to A1G1Z1. Maybe I was lucky with timely appts etc but I can't fault the system and, strangely, it did get better with no outside interference. Good luck with the back and the system.

[Bob the Doc]

I can assure you that the docs don't like the system any more than the patients!

When we can refer to Mil consultants, they are usually very good at getting people in for appointments but it is not always that easy. I know of at least one (Army) consultant who had to keep stopping the hospital bods filling up the mil outpatient clinic with long NHS waiters!

There was once a Surgeon General's Waiting Time Initiative (or something similar) which allowed for referral to private healthcare where NHS care was expected to be slow but I don't think it is still going on.

While in principle, bringing back military hospitals would be a great idea, it is financially impossible and the training that was available to military docs was (apparently, I never got to experience it) not as good as some of the training they are getting now.

Don't get me wrong...the current system is far from perfect. Most mil docs will try and bend the system to fit in mil patients as much as possible but you do not always get referred to a mil doc. Even if you are referred to a Ministry of Defence Hospital Unit (MDHU), you may not get a mil consultant and even if you do, his/her junior team may not be mil. Sorry, but there it is! Currently, there are MDHUs in Peterborough, Birmingham, Aldershot (Frimley Park), Plymouth (Derriford), Northallerton/Middlesborough but none in Wales, Scotland, the Northwest or southeast of England so those in these areas may well get referred to the NHS.

Hope that makes some sense and doesn't seem like making too many excuses.

Bob

[Arclite01]

Bob The Doc

Thanks for your post - most informative - and honest !

cheers

Arc

[snaggletooth]

Shaw,

Man up old chap, surely personal mobility is a small price to pay for the honour of serving one's Monarch. Nuff said methinks.

Now where's me leaving gizzit eh?!

[anotherchopride?!]

No, the system sucks...or should that be YES, the system sucks?

Grounded over a year ago for a back problem. Physio once a week for 2 months, after 4 months (and a LOT of fuss on my part) go to see a civvy doctor working for mil. 2 days later MRI scan, 2 weeks later result. So far so good. But, no diagnosis and no reduction in pain or other symptoms (loss of leg/feet sensation etc). 7 months after first being grounded FINALLY go to see the NHS specialist I have been waiting for... He tells me nothing and recommends an RAF RRU Spinal rehab course I am already booked on. Go to that, which makes symptoms worse, have another MRI (the NEXT day - see, they can do it when they think they have missed something) and see Civ Doctor.... Go Med Board (review) they kindly give me another year to get back to flying and an appt with Mil Surg. In meantime another rehab course... Blah blah blah you get the picture.

I appreciate that back problems CAN be difficult to diagnose but I have ended up with 7 different assessments from 7 different mil/ civ doctors/surgs/specialists who all seem to take what I am saying as basis for diagnosis i.e. I quote that I have spoken to someone previously who was positive about going back to flying, the next guy agress. I tell them the previous chap was quite negative and they start talking about Med Dicharges and finding new careers.

It is extremely frustrating that 1. an absolute diagnosis can't be found and 2. that therefore no-one can tell me if this is something likely to go away (it has ameliorated slightly over last 3-4 months since I stopped exercising...) if I continue not to fly. 3. WHY has it taken so long to achieve NOTHING???

I am not sure if this is down to individuals or the system (the guys and girls at the RRU btw have been EXCELLENT), but I do know that if the mil still had hospitals I would have been in the same position as I am now some 6-12 previous.

As has been pointed out, yes it shudders me to think what our colleagues with frontline induced injuries are experiencing...
One word can sum this all up:
DISGRACEFUL....

[Bob the Doc]

So you have had two scans (MRI is by far the most useful imaging technique for backs as it shows soft tissues that X-ray or CT can't) which show nothing operable (or they would have operated) and in fact nothing at all as far as I can tell from your post. You have been referred for rehab which doesn't seem to have suited you. By your own admission you have seen seven different people in about a year or so. Not sure exactly what your gripe is.

If your problem is not due to a correctable structural problem then you are left with long-term rehab problems. Hopefully (as per your post), things are improving. I'm sure (and you may well accuse me of being unnecessarily defensive of my colleagues in the DMS here) the second scan was done because your symptoms had changed since the first scan (you said they had got worse). I'm sure the RRU were concerned that whatever you had been doing in rehab had made things worse and wanted to know what was going on in your spine. Perhaps there was something not visible on the original scan that (now your symptoms were worse) was now big enough to see on a second scan.

I think you have done considerably better than a civilian in the same situation. The RRUs and DSMRC Headley Court are excellent facilities that are not available to the civilians and so I would suggest that you have had superior treatment to your non-mil counterparts.

Unfortunately, not all problems can be cured by medical intervention and not all problems can have a diagnostic label attached to them. Sometimes we doctors have to just put up our hands and say 'I don't know'.

Med Boards seem to have served you very well. If they felt that you would never become 'productive' again, they would have medically discharged you by now. If your symptoms are improving then they will keep you in for as long as they can to give you the best chance to return to active service.

Sorry if I have missed some gaping medical cock up or significant disability or delayed recovery caused by a non-instantaneous response that you (erroneously) think you would have got from a service hospital but I am not sure exactly what your complaint is.

[shawtarce]

My gripe comes from the lack of progress made over the last 8 months.......

Documents get lost, and I appreciate that, but why did it take 2 months for a replacement set of MRI scans to be acquired.

Why also, when an appointment gets cancelled through no fault of your own, do you have to wait a further 6 weeks for another one, especially when you should have been seen some 14 weeks earlier.

After 7 months of sick leave at home, I have managed to find a non flying job that doesn't require me to be 100% fit. At least now I feel that I am earning the Queen's shilling and not just malingering at home. I could only arrange for this to be temporary though, and have arrived on detachment.

From what I have been told by various doctors, it would be very unwise for me to return to my previous role.
But who makes the decision? I can't be posted into this new job until I get a decision on my future medical cat.
The med board won't make a decision until they hear from a surgeon,
but you can't get to see a surgeon because of the reasons I've posted earlier.

If it was my life and mine alone that sits in limbo, whilst these decisions are waiting to be made, I could accept that. But what of our Families? Wives these days don’t just sit around with the kids, cleaning and ironing, waiting to hear where they’ll be following their husbands to next. They have jobs and career aspirations. They need some sort of future plan to work on, or else they turn slowly and surely into wives that don’t want to be wives any more!

Yes I'm cheesed off, mainly because I've been in pain for over 8 months now.
Also because I want to get on with my last couple of years and plan for my future career.

Bob the Doc, I fully realise that back problems are difficult to diagnose, that the recovery rate from surgery is not great and sometimes these things just clear up by themselves, but isn't that why they pay you the big dollar?

anotherchopride, the physio department here have been great as well, but the more stretches and core work I do, the worse I get. If I lay off the exercises for a few days, it all calms down to an almost manageable level.
Like you, I just feel abandoned by the system, because it seems it’s the easiest thing for the system to do.

Yes I’m venting to the Nth degree, but isn’t that what PPrune is all about.
:ugh:

[Bob the Doc]

Shawtarce...

My last message was aimed at anotherchopride. In your case you do seem to have been let down by the system and I suspect you WOULD have got better treatment in a military hospital. Lost films are a fact of life in a large organisation like a hospital but that is no comfort to you. Many hospitals are now going over to digital on-line type systems that remove the need for films unless you are coming from a different trust and even then, they can often be sent securely from one hospital to another (electronically) so that the surgeon can see the films on the computer instead. That doesn't allow for the fact that the surgeon you were under left the NHS. That said, the NHS presumably had at least a month and probably 3 months' worth of notice that this was going to happen in order to make arrangements so no excuses. If I were you, I would complain to the trust.

[Re-Heat]

Documents get lost, and I appreciate that, but why did it take 2 months for a replacement set of MRI scans to be acquired.
Once all of this goes on the big, bad, new computer system and the GPs all play ball, this should be a thing of the past.

Not as bad as my GP (I'm civilian) who lost my whole medical file, and complete history as it was paper-based. I have to tell them what dosages I have to be on now...