RAF F-117 pilots

[harrogate]

Morning folks

Anyone recall names of RAF pilots who flew the F-117, either when it was officially in-service or when still in development? Also, what were those RAF chaps flying for the RAF at the time of exchange?

I've read elsewhere that RAF jocks have worked with the F-117 throughout its life and now I'm officially interested.

Also, any insights into those old F-117 flying out of Binbrook rumours? I once saw a photo of one doing an o/s at sunset at Binny, but not sure if this was when it was 'out of the closet' or not.

Ta.

[RETDPI]

"Officially Interested"

[bad livin']

RAF jocks, you say? I wasn't aware anyone from God's country went off to fly it...

[forget]

Seek and ye shall .......... never mind.

http://www.ais.org/~schnars/aero/bandits.htm

[Kitbag]

And Google: http://www.rafreserves.com/News/Story.aspx?article=129

[harrogate]

"Officially interested" - merely a turn of phrase.

Got some time on my hands (house-sitting... rather god, I recommend it... you just sit).

I've heard many accounts of RAF chaps flying it. An ex-RAF jock flew it with the Reds in formation at a UK airshow a few years back.

[Gainesy]

IIRC The first two (after it came out of the closet anyway) were Jag Mates.

[gareth herts]

Graham Wardell
Dave Southwood (evaluation only)
Colin Cruickshanks (as above)
Chris Topham
Ian Wood
Mark C Sutton
Alistair Monkman

This is up to 1998.

It's a great book by the way.

Gareth

[bad livin']

By "jock" I meant Scottish...:ugh:

[Jackonicko]

There have been eight RAF F-117A exchange pilots. I don’t know if Cooke is the last, and whether the F-117A exchange has been replaced by, or remains additional to, the F-22 exchange, but with the end of -117 conversion training it seems unlikely that there will be a ninth.
Bandit number>name>previous type>qualification date
1) Bandit 282 - Squadron Leader Graham Wardell, RAF, (ex-Tornado?) 14 DEC 88
2) Bandit 354 - Squadron Leader Chris Topham, RAF, (ex-Jags) 27 FEB 91
3) Bandit 436 - Squadron Leader Ian Wood, RAF, (ex-Jags) 11 JAN 94
4) Bandit 481 – Squadron Leader Mark Sutton, RAF, 21 FEB 96
5) Bandit 540? - Squadron Leader Al Monkman, RAF, (ex-Tornado) 3 APR 98
6) Bandit ??? - Squadron Leader Linc Taylor, RAF, (ex Harrier)
7) Bandit 625 - Squadron Leader Ritchie Matthews, RAF, (ex-Jags) 2003
8) Bandit ??? - Squadron Leader Charlie Cooke, RAF, (ex-Jags) (2005-2007)
plus
Colin Cruikshank and Dave Southwood of FJTS who had five flights each in 1985 at Groom Lake.

[Gainesy]

Graham was definately Jags, he bounced one off a radio mast in Germany and got a free tie.

[BossEyed]

Colin Cruickshank has a fascinating description of how the two tps came to fly it included in Bernard Noble's "Properly to Test: Book Two".

JN: CC doesn't say, but Tonopah more likely than Groom, surely?

[Jackonicko]

I'm only repeating a third-hand story.....

[sitigeltfel]

Would this have been the same Graham Wardell (6/6/99)?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/362464.stm

[gareth herts]

According to Dave Southwood in the previously mentioned book it was indeed Tonopah, with one flight each for him and CC in an F-15B at Luke AFB as prep.

It is the same Graham Wardell I believe.

[November4]

Bandit 481 – Squadron Leader Mark Sutton, RAF, 21 FEB 96

So that's what happened to him...was in the same ATC Sqn with Mark many years back now.

[NST]

S/L Richie Matthews C/S was Bandit 625, got his signature on a Limited Edition Squadron Print.

[MrFlibble]

Quick question - what does "Bandit" status mean? Is it anything like becoming an "Ace" after 5 kills?

[Navy_Adversary]

I understand a number of these aircraft are now back at TTR in storage, what goes around comes around:)

[brickhistory]

"Bandit" is the callsign awarded after a pilot becomes qualified in the F-117 aka "Stinkbug."

Thus 'Bandit 685' would be the 685th pilot to qualify in the jet.

Bandit was one of the original F-117 squadrons at Tonopah.

I think.

[L J R]

aaaahhhh Tonopah. Spent the night there once......


ooops sorry - signed a sheet saying I would not say so. DooooH!!


Omega watch wearers knocking at the door already.

[Gainesy]

Yes that is the same guy. Good bloke.

[gareth herts]

They were also the first American night fighter squadron in WWII I think - which is why they took that designation.

417th Tactical Fighter Training Squadron I believe.

[brickhistory]

First US night fighter squadron was the 6th NFS in the Pacific.

Next came the 414th -417th, trained in the UK on Beaufighters, served in North Africa, Italy, then into southern France and Germany. 417th was not the 'Bandits' at that time.

417th later flew F-86s, one CO being Yeager, then equipped with F-100s in Euripe, moved to New Mexico, finally F-4s into Vietnam until their deactivation.

The F-117s were the 415th (ops), 416th (ops) and the 417th was the training unit and the 'Bandits' as they had become. They moved from Tonopah to Holloman in the early 1990s. Became the 7th, 8th, and 9th Fighter Squadrons while there.


Sorry, 'geek' mode to off.

[gareth herts]

Thanks for the info.

Paul Crickmore's book says of the squadrons you list above:

"The new designations had a firm foothold in history being the first US Night Fighter Squadrons of WWII".

Not totally innacurate then - just not the whole story?

[FILTH]

Yes, sadly it was the same Graham Wardell. I was on the TWCU with him just before he left to go to the F-117. A top bloke and a sad loss.

[Ewan Whosearmy]

"Bandit" is the callsign awarded after a pilot becomes qualified in the F-117 aka "Stinkbug."

Thus 'Bandit 685' would be the 685th pilot to qualify in the jet.
Bandit was one of the original F-117 squadrons at Tonopah.
I think.

Close on th origins of the call sign, Brick.

The F-117 "Bandit" numbers were a continuation of the Bandit call signs assigned to the 4477th TES 'Red Eagles' at TTR. Although itself a classified unit, the 4477th TES actually served as a cover for the even more black 4450th TG and its F-117s.

That, of course, explains why the Stink Bug's Bandit numbers start in the 80s (IIRC) and not at zero (0).

[brickhistory]

The F-117 "Bandit" numbers were a continuation of the Bandit call signs assigned to the 4477th TES 'Red Eagles' at TTR. Although itself a classified unit, the 4477th TES actually served as a cover for the even more black 4450th TG and its F-117s.

Ah, interesting. Who says pprune can't be educational? :8

[LOMCEVAK]

If you read Paul Crickmore's book carefully there is no mention in Dave Southwood's account of where the flying took place from! Also, this evaluation was flown in 1986 not 1985 as Jackonicko states. Just to keep the record straight...

[A2QFI]

A Harrier pilot known as 'Link' Taylor went on exchange in the late 90s - haven't heard of him since. He isn't back in the Harrier force.

[Ewan Whosearmy]

Old thread revival:

I talked to Crickmore today; he said that he is 99% certain that the location of the first RAF exposures to the F-117 were at Groom Lake.

He also added that both men had assumed the "Bandit" call signs of two USAF pilots (who were on leave) in order to keep the visit low-key. When the two men checked in on the radio, complete with Limey accents, the radios went mad!

[brickhistory]

Since it's not my book (dammit!), I'll put a plug in for:

The F-117 "Bandit" numbers were a continuation of the Bandit call signs assigned to the 4477th TES 'Red Eagles' at TTR. Although itself a classified unit, the 4477th TES actually served as a cover for the even more black 4450th TG and its F-117s.

mentioned above.


There is a really good book titled "Red Eagles" about the USAF MiGs at Tonapah out now.

I highly recommend it.

[West Coast]

Just finished it, a good read.

It was my understanding from the book that the Mig program was classified for no foreign release. That would make it problematic for the RAF (unless the RAF was exempt ) to have been involved heavily till the F117 left TTR as the two shared the same airport and as such pilots were "read in" on the Mig program.

[Ewan Whosearmy]

West Coast

That makes sense: Wardell didn't go to the F-117 until Dec 1988, almost 9 months after the 4477th TES ceased operations and cleared out of TTR.

[West Coast]

I guess the timeline dovetails nicely to your account.
Thanks

[John Farley]

Since this thread has appeared again and further to keep the record straight Jackonicko is not right when he says:

Colin Cruikshank and Dave Southwood of FJTS who had five flights each in 1985 at Groom Lake.

It was A Sqn in those days. Then later Fixed Wing test Squadron and then later still FJTS. It was also Colin Cruickshanks.

Attention to detail matters.

[chopper2004]

John F

On the BBC documentary Test Pilot, in 87/88, Dave Southwood was featured on it as one of the students? Can're recall if he was one of the students (Harry Fehl of the Luftwaffe) that went to Pax River to preview' the Admiral's Barge' F-18B or the S-3B Viking?

[CharlieJuliet]

For the record, Dave Southwood was on No 44 Fixed Wing Course and he graduated in December 1985

[Toppo]

It was my understanding from the book that the Mig program was classified for no foreign release. That would make it problematic for the RAF (unless the RAF was exempt ) to have been involved heavily till the F117 left TTR as the two shared the same airport and as such pilots were "read in" on the Mig program.

After taking over the exchange slot from Graham Wardell I did almost 2 years at Tonopah before we all moved down to Holloman; the Migs were long gone by the time I started at TTR in late '90.

Regards

[Ewan Whosearmy]

Toppo

Did they ever tell you what the hangers at the south side of the airfield had been used for?

[Chris Kebab]

...that was the Aurora sqn.

[chopper2004]

Toppo,

When I was member of 104 ATC City of Camb back in late 91, we had a presentation the F-117 by Sqn Ldr (ex Phantom backseater) who was teaching EW at CRanwell. Him and his staff, one Flt Sgt and a Flt lt. They had visited TTR earlier that year and examined the 117 for the purposes of briefing the whole RAF.

Anyhow he passed around samples of the stealth paint (which felt heavy in a little tube)and some of the composite material.for the 117.

Interesting enough he said on one particular day when they were doing photos, that a B-52H with what he described had a tail mod and his Flt Sgt inadvertently thought it would be interesting to take a pic of the Buff and promptly the whole team had been 'manhandled' by the Security Forces Sqn and their films ripped and destroyed all because of someone decided to take a pic of the modified B52. Therefore they had to start again the photo session of the 117 again which was an inconvenience.

DO you know if this incident?
Rgds
Chopper2004

[Ewan Whosearmy]

Chopper

Surprised that this chap thought he could get away with photographing anything at Tonopah other than the F-117 - surely he knew the purpose of the site!?

[pr00ne]

chopper2004,

Oh come on! He gave out "samples of the stealth paint" to Air Cadets? in 1991?

.............and why on earth would he have been "briefing the whole RAF"?

Methinks something not quite right there!

[BEagle]

No, Chris, they were the ones in which the 'Big Tamale' was stored - and its late flight crew preserved in gloop.
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a341/nw969/Internet/zxzxz.jpg

I did have a little fun before the F-117 was declassified by making up some spoof 'zaps' using cut, paste, snopake and xerox. These showed a picture of the alleged 'F-19', a Lockheed logo and '???th TFW, Tonopah AFB' written on them. I made quite a few (just photocopied them) and distributed them covertly around various places, such as stuck under the perspex of the nav planning section at Andrews AFB, inside the Dash One of the U-2 at Patrick AFB, hidden in various USAF planning documents at other US bases etc etc. You could also have fun with those USAF self-carboning flight plans by pressing the aircraft type 'F-19' (and later 'Aurora') through the top copy....:E

Later heard that this had caused consternation in some quarters! But the zaps kept re-appearing; someone told me they'd seen on on the cockpit door of Concorde!

[chopper2004]

pr00ne

My assumptions at the time 17 years ago, was that the 3 man team went to TTR specifically to analyse the 117 and to brief various bodies in the RAF about stealth irst hand.

Of course the Exchange officer along with the previous exchange officer and the two ETPS guys plus probably higher up in staff knew the ins and outs of the 117 anyhow :cool:

[Toppo]

Never got to meet any other Brits - actually any "foreigners" at all - while I was at Tonopah; an RAF aircraft diverted in during Red Flag while I was on leave, but apart from that it was me and a whole bunch of americans. Even senior officers were denied permission to visit until we had made the move to Holloman. I very much doubt the tale of the heavy paint, as all evaluation had been done by that time. Even in 1993 we had armed guards when we did static air shows to ensure that no unauthorised people touched the aircraft, so lugging a lump of authentic Black Jet on a tour around the UK in 1991 sounds like merely a great way to catch the audiences' attention to me!

Tonopah was amazingly secure. Ronnie, the (civilian) Aircrew Driver for our squadron, had been at Tonopah for many years by the time I arrived. Her final task each day was to deliver the first wave of pilots to the hangars, dropping each one individually outside his shelter. She then had to drive out beyond the security gates. The hangar doors were only opened once all those who didn't "need to know" had been logged out.

When the aircraft was unveiled to the public at Nellis in mid-'90, she drove the 5 hours from Tonopah town down to Nellis AFB just to get her first look at the aircraft!! All those years and never even a glimpse .....

[phil gollin]

The Cold War types are being real spoil sports about releasing the juicy bits about cold war intel, etc.....

I wonder when the Soviets knew about various aspects of stealth (general shape, coatings details, etc....). I'm sure both sides know, but they won't tell the public.

Seems strange. We knew an awful lot of WW2 secrets 20 years after it ended.

.

[captainspeaking]

I'm not sure if anyone is still looking at this thread ... but:

One of the F-117 pilots - Lt. Col. William O'Connor (Yukon, aka Bandit 545) who was active in the Kosovo/Serbia "strikes" in 1998-99 has just released a book called "Stealth Fighter". It's an almost day-by-day account of his year-long deployment at Holloman AFB and later at Aviano, Italy.

BTW, Sqn Ldr Al Monkman is identified by the c/s "Reverend" in the book. Which, although written by an American, is actually rather good.

[Ewan Whosearmy]

https://youtu.be/aNClhGHue-w

[chopper2004]

Graham was definately Jags, he bounced one off a radio mast in Germany and got a free tie.

So he was not the one who got shot down mistakenly by one of Wildenraths finest 🤔✈️...

cheers