AOPA claim 70% drop out rate

[FullyFlapped]

There have been similar threads before, but reading articles like the one in the August edition of the AOPA mag always makes me wonder why so many people drop out.

I understand all the arguments about cost, family/life/other commitments, just getting bored boring holes around the locale etc etc etc. But it strikes me that if getting on for a couple of thousand people per year just decide to chuck away probably a five-figure investment, there must be some deeper reason ...

AOPA cite too much mindless regulation, unfriendly clubs, cost, and too many other pursuits to choose from.

The article also claims that IMC renewals are 50% down on their peak.

I don't know the answer (although I personally think the lack of an achievable PPL/IR is a problem for many, hopefully now being addressed - any news yet Bose-X?), but I'd be really interested to see a survey of those who don't renew.

FF :ok:

[IO540]

This is another "high server bandwidth" topic :)

The main license issue stats are on the CAA website. 1993-2000 data is here (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/175/srg_fcl_historical_licence_ratings_93_2000.pdf)and more recent data is here (http://www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?catid=175&pagetype=68&gid=559).

There must be many reasons.

One could start with the really easy ones, which are people who could not, in most cases, possibly afford to fly after they get their PPL, e.g. the "£6k xmas present to a 16 year old" cases. From my training I reckon these come to at least 1/3.

Then you get those who did it as a lifestyle challenge, like climbing some mountain, getting laid, doing a parachute jump, etc. I reckon that's another 1/3.

Anecdotal evidence from the USA suggests a 2/3 dropout rate is common over there too.

Then one moves on to a debate why people who could fly in the longer term choose to give it up.

I would start with the crap PPL training, which leaves the new PPL holder largely unprepared for anything beyond a local bimble. Busting CAS is so easy and pilots are scared to death of the well publicised penalties. The reality (few get prosecuted) is very different but never let facts in the way of a good story. And I think most pilots are intelligent enough to realise this is quite serious, and I know many suffer from a lack of confidence as a result.

Then:

You get the PFA brigade offering salvation to all.

You get the IFR brigade (of which I am a part-time member) offering salvation to all.

You get the touring brigade (as above) offering salvation to all.

You get the "parachute with a lawn mower" brigade offering salvation to all.

You get the aerobatic brigade offering salvation to what remains.

I think the biggest single reason is that the whole scene is decrepit, full of anoraks, has few interesting women which ensures that most "modern" men (who still have time and money) will go elsewhere.

The next reason is that renting will get you only so far. Most of the stuff available is absolute crap, which takes us to ownership and part-ownership.

Ownership is a huge hassle and more or less takes over your life. It becomes a full time hobby. Getting airborne is wonderful and that is why people hang in there, but unless you get enough value out of being in the air, the aforementioned hassle is just too much.

The best compromise is group ownership which is why I advise anybody to evaluate their objective ASAP and get themselves sorted before they waste more time and money on the rental scene which invariably results in them chucking it in.

Also, unexplicably, many men choose women who don't like flying :) :ugh::ugh::ugh:

The big drop in the IMCR is very real and I haven't got a clue what the reason might be. It's not as if anything has changed in the last 5-10 years. Are schools not pushing the product? Has it been slagged off so much that people get put off?

[BackPacker]

I've been considering the flying I do, based on this thread, and I think there's a serious chance that I'll be one of those drop-outs in, let's say, two years time. Why? I don't know exactly, but I think I'm one of those achiever-types who, by then, has achieved everything from flying that I wanted to achieve, and it's time to move on.

In my particular case, I did not see my flying training (3-week Florida) as an "investment" but rather as "vacation". I thoroughly enjoyed it and even if I would not have obtained my PPL there I would have had a great time. I then became member of a flying club in Holland. I got checked out on practically all of the aircraft types that the club has to offer. I took all of my family members and friends flying, went to a lot of the airfields that can be accessed in about one hours flying (and found that they're practically all the same). I have done a semi-business trip to the UK, participate in club activities like rallys and club flights to eg. Duxford, and I am currently doing an aerobatics course.

I'm not ready to drop out just yet. There are still things on my list, top of which is finishing the aerobatics course and competing in an aeros event, at least at "basic" level, possibly at "standard" level. There are also a few other activities that my club offers, that I still want to take part in. But then?

My type of flying has been very diverse so far and as a member of the club I can pick and choose the aircraft that suits my mission profile for that day. A R2160 for aeros, a DA-40TDI for long-distance touring (if the ECU doesn't decide to act up), a DR200-135CDI for a local bimble, or a PA-28 or C-172 if I take passengers sightseeing or do a rally. So buying an aircraft (CofA or permit) would limit my flying considerably, apart from the financial and practical considerations. (Although I have to admit that my club keeps the aircraft well maintained and is not afraid to do investments.)

An IR rating at this point in time is something that I would consider an "investment" instead of "holiday" or "fun". Particularly the theory bit puts me off big time. (IO540, I know about the PPL/IR working group trying to reduce the theory requirements, and I am keeping an eye on that.) Furthermore, an IR is very useful if you do serious touring or business trips and want to be less dependent on good weather. But so far I have not had the need for an IR.

Other challenges? Multi? Well, that just gives you the opportunity to get lost twice as fast, and if one engine fails the other will take you to the scene of the accident. Tailwheel - very interesting. Might consider that. CPL? Well, my day job currently generates more money than an entry flying job. No chance. FI? I would love to teach other people to fly, even for free, but right now that's not practical/possible without a CPL. Helicopters? Tempting, very tempting. But also very expensive, an "investment" rather than "hobby".

So for me, I have proven that I can fly. In two years time or so I think I have achieved all the goals that I wanted to achieve, and it's time to move on. Will I regret it? I don't think so. It's been tremendous fun. In fact, right now it still is. But although I can afford it, it still is an expensive hobby, and I have promised myself that if I find myself in the situation that I *need* to fly a certain number of hours just to keep my license valid/current, that I would give up flying immediately. And I can see that situation happening in a few years from now.

Mind you, by then I probably will have another hobby already. In fact, that other hobby might just be the cause of my flying hours reducing. That's precisely what happened to a few of my other hobbies in the past as well, so why would this be any different?

So, to summarize, I think it's not the flying scene that puts me off. It's not the lack of women or the state of the rental aircraft, or any other "negative" factor. It's the simple fact that most of us don't *have to* fly. We fly for fun, and part of that fun, for me at least, is to set myself a challenge and then achieve it. Challenges fulfilled? Time to move on.

[PompeyPaul]

I bought my headset off of ebay and asked the owner why he was selling it. He simply said that if you are flying for something then it's fun, once you stop it becomes less so.

Initially you are flying for a PPL and so have a target
Then you are flying to take out some mates
Then you are flying to do a cross channel experience

Then, where do you go ?

If multi-engines where cheaper then that would be great. If helicopters were cheaper it would be fun to do those. They are just prohibitively expensive.

The headset owner told me about how he went to his flying club to go to an airfield around an hour away. He arrived and found his license had lapsed and so needed a check ride. That cost £180. Then the plane hire for 2 hours cost around £320. Total price for the day was £500 for a visit to birmingham (or somwhere like that). He jacked it in, having done the cross channel flight etc.

Don't get me wrong. I love flying, I think it's great. I understand though,right now I have more disosable income at this time of my life than I probably ever will again. I want to start a family in a few years time, and move house to accomodate that. My disposable income will dry up. I'll keep my license valid as best as I can, hopefully not letting it lapse, so that I can come back later. With children \ mortgage and school uniforms to buy I suspect the Birmingham for £500 return trip will be one of the first things to go.

I can fully understand though, the "I've learnt to fly", "I've done the PPL" problem is, it's not much use for anything really. (flame suit on).

Reading this month's pilot magazine about flying in Namibia. Sounds fun. On the other hand I think it would've been more fun to have done that journey from the ground. They would've experienced more of the country and culture.

From my limited time in aviation the drop out seems high, but most of them seem to go to sailing afterwards ?

[IO540]

Then, where do you go ?

If one has to that stage, is still looking for challenges, and doesn't want to go off in a different direction (e.g. aeros), then that more or less leaves "going places". This is possible but difficult under VFR, and it is at this point what a lot of owner/pilots go off and get the FAA IR. We are off in a few weeks' time to Crete, Ukraine, and a few other places, over a 2 week holiday. The flights should provide great views (weather is a lot better once away from the UK) and it's a much more interesting experience than a normal holiday even for the non-flying passenger.

If multi-engines where cheaper then that would be great.

That is largely a myth, because a twin doesn't (in itself) offer a great increment in mission capability over a single. You just pay a load of money for the spare engine, plus (given that most are very old) a load of money for maintenance.

If helicopters were cheaper it would be fun to do those. They are just prohibitively expensive.

That's a whole different business. A heli can give you a level of mission capability within the UK (they are short range things) which a fixed wing pilot could only dream about.

The headset owner told me about how he went to his flying club to go to an airfield around an hour away. He arrived and found his license had lapsed and so needed a check ride. That cost £180. Then the plane hire for 2 hours cost around £320. Total price for the day was £500 for a visit to birmingham (or somwhere like that). He jacked it in, having done the cross channel flight etc.

He should have dumped the self fly hire scene. It's a dead end, for most people.

I can fully understand though, the "I've learnt to fly", "I've done the PPL" problem is, it's not much use for anything really. (flame suit on).

No flaming justified; this must be a common scenario.

Flying to Namibia may be fun but it's a helluva long haul, for the most totally dedicated anoraks only. You need a specialised overflight company just to organise the overflights, avgas shipped in drums, etc.

I've just read a great trip report of somebody flying a Mooney (with a ferry tank, presumably without a permit from each airspace, but what the hell) from Germany all the way to Chile. Must have ben a great trip but I wouldn't want to do it.

[Slopey]

Thankfully, I've managed to get into a group which has been a godsend. After FAS went pear shaped the local rental prices are circa £150 plus £17 landing fees - no way I'd be able to afford it after getting my PPL.

The biggest issue for me (and to some extent the geographical location I'm at) is the weather.

It's been mostly miserable this year - the cloud base has seldom been above 2500 feet, and with MSA of 3/4000 required to get anywhere, it's been a bit of a pain. 1000-1500 feet round the coast gets very boring, very quickly.

Keeping current has been a huge challenge (even now I still need 1 t/o & lnd to be back inside the 90 day rule) but hopefully, if we get even a month of nice weather I'll have that sorted out.

I would have like to have flown from Aberdeen to Inverness for work reasons couple of times by now, but the WX hasn't permitted it - so I'm now seriously considering the IMC.

However (from another thread/the ANO/ Lasors) - I can't use the group aircraft for the training (but I can for the test) as it's the initial issue of the rating, so I'm stuck with club rates again and a significant investment. And then I'll have to keep that current also - but to be honest, with the IMC I would definately fly more.

Realistically, there's a HUGE limit on what you can do VFR in parts of the UK due to our wonderful weather, and rental prices are usually extortionate (especially with the 28 day currency on most clubs).

It's no wonder people give up.

[BackPacker]

IO, FF, why are you so worried about the 70% number?

Flying, for PPL holders, is a hobby. Just like riding a motorcycle, sailing, golf, caving, diving, whatever. I think that if you look at the numbers for dropouts at those other hobbies, after people have achieved a significant milestone in that hobby, are not that different. Yes, in flying they may be a little higher, owing to the fact that flying is more expensive and requires currency to do it safely. But how many people still play golf regularly enough to maintain a handicap, three years after getting their golf license? How many people still dive regularly after having gotten their initial license at, say, the Bahamas? How many people out there with a motorcycle license who haven't ridden in some years?

The 70% dropout rate would be worrying if all of those 70% would regret it. But I think there's only few who have to give up flying because of factors like losing a medical or losing disposable income. The rest gives up flying (or lets licenses lapse) because of a shift of interest. And they don't regret it.

[muffin]

I learnt to fly in 1980 on 152s etc. I hit the same "what now?" after the PPL and bought a share in an elderly C172. That took me through the IMC rating and the cross channel/UK touring phases, then I went through several shares in various other aircraft. For several years I did only the 5 hours that were needed then to keep the licence, but never actually let it lapse. I suppose my interest just dropped to a slow tickover but never died completely.
Then after 20 years I discovered helicopters. That changed my world completely. They are so fascinating, so capable and such a challenge every time you turn the starter key that my aviation interest has been born again with a vengeance. I now fly my R22 several times a week and have a share in a modern VLA with a Rotax engine. I also fly a modern 3 axis microlight. So now I walk into the hangar and decide what I feel like flying that day. Interestingly I now very rarely go anywhere more than an hour away and have no wish to cross the Channel again. But I am determined to keep flying as long as I can until the day comes when I cannot pass the annual medical.

[FullyFlapped]

IO, FF, why are you so worried about the 70% number?
I wouldn't say I'm worried about it : provided that the intake figure more or less keeps the active numbers constant, then no problem.

However, if more people are dropping out than are coming in, this will inevitably lead (or indeed add) to the current decline in access to facilities (eg regionals) and levels of available equipment, tuition and ability to "have a voice" in planning and matters such as the lobbying of EASA for a revamped PPL/IR and so on.

It's not an issue for me : I know what I want to do, and how to get there. On the other hand, if I owned a flying school ...

FF :ok:

[dublinpilot]

I think a big factor is the value for money factor. Not the cost, but the value for money.

Whether your interest is in aeros, farm stripping, or touring, it becomes hard to justify a large sum of money for an afternoons flying.

Aeros
Aerobatic aircraft tend to be more expensive to hire and fewer groups. I've never done aero's, but I imagine that after awhile it becomes hard to justify £200 for throwing yourself around the sky for a little while, especially when you've done it so often before.

Farm stripping
What do people do when they land there? If you land, make yourself a cup of tea, sign the book and fly away again, then likewise it can be hard to justy a couple of hundred quid for your afternoon. (Harder if you have to justify it to a spouse who thinks it would be better spent on shoes!)

Touring
This is where my interest would lie, but I don't think the skills required are really imparted on the PPL course. Well perhaps they are to a limited extent, but the experience required, and the confidence needed are not distilled on the PPL course. Probably because the cost of taking a couple of students on a few international flights would be a lot. Renting organisations rarely like you taking an aircraft away for any length of time, and if they do allow you then there is minimum hours to worry about. I understand this from the schools point of view, but from the renters, it's hard to justify the cost. For example I am going to Germany next month. I'd love to fly myself, but at a return cost of appx €1500 (which in itself is very cheap for GA) vs a Ryanair trip of €60 it's hard to justify.

The trick here is to either buy yourself, or get into a good group/club which allows you to take an aircraft away for a few days without minimum hours, and at reasonable rates. Then you can justify a weekend away, that involves more than just flying there and back....you have some time on the ground too. Better still, join up with someone else, and share the trip....and gain the experience together. For most people though, they have left flying before they get to discover this.

dp

[Fuji Abound]

I was told recently by someone who would know that the problem with most PPLs is they spend most of their time being SH""t scared.

Never thought of it before, but I suspect he is right.

At best, they are comfortable with flying on good days - and we get few enough of them. Then they are only comfortable with not going too far afield.

The trouble is by the time they have realised they are not comfortable flying most of the time, and the rest of the time the weather is too poor and that when they are going anywhere they could drive there in a quarter the time and at a quarter the cost it all seems pretty pointless.

If you get over those hurdles the other hassle is the problems going anywhere. In the UK it is not too bad, but once again you can usually drive there quicker and always at less cost AND you now have a car with you. Getting from airports is always a hassle and costly.

Going abroad would make a lot of sense. However, we make the whole process so inordinately complicated. The Terrorism Act, customs declaration, flight plans, channel checkouts, lack of readily available information about routes, airports, NOTAMS, weather - is it a surprise most give up.

I was south of Paris on Saturday. As usual L2K was snowed under, anywhere further south was deserted. In my view L2K do a brilliant job. Easy access, bikes for hire, a bit of English, seamless customs and flight planning etc - guess why it is so popular. It just works. For all of those reasons most are "scared" of going any further south.

So if you are fed up with local jollies, too scared to tour cant be bothered with the hassle, that only leaves aeros to keep up your interest. As much fun as that is most people cant afford to do it, and if they can they are still scared s££tless most of the time.

As for me I am off to Ireland - I couldnt be bothered to go by scheduled for a few days, and I certainly wouldnt drive there. I will put up with telling plod, customs et al because I have nearly got it down to a fine art.

[sternone]

I tried them all... Golf, Sail and Flying.

I hated the Golf, it bored me to death, i wen't to some really nice golf courses in the South of France, and then i descided that it's a ****ty sport and i don't know what the fuss is about it.

Then i sailed, the problem is that you are on sea.. for us the North-Sea wich isn't the Caraiban you know... mostly there is to much wind, or to less wind, then you have to motor, and it's slow and also booring. You have no comfort (even in 1M$ boats) but somethimes it can be fun.. but mostly it's very uncomftable, and i hate most mentality of sailboat people...it's like you have to be friends with people you would otherwise ignore.

Then i tried to get my PPL, oh boy, that is fun, it's each time pushing my limits.. and it's satisfying, don't we all need something un-ecomomical, purely emotional and little bit dangerous in our lifes ?!

What else do we need to do ?? Tell me ?? The most important and difficult thing is to know what you wan't in life, once you know that, achieving it is much easier...

[172driver]

Well, well, gentlemen - why so negative ?

Guess I'm part of the Touring Brigade (salvation to all, donations accepted via PM ;)).

I always thought that a/c were meant to go places and that's what I tend to do. In the past 18 months or so been to Morocco (all the way to the other side of the Atlas), across Europe, around Spain and Portugal, in Florida and, most recently, around Namibia (wasn't me who wrote the Pilot mag article, must get it, I don't normally read UK flying mags).

Now, I hasten to add, all the above in rented a/c. It IS doable if you want to do it, and not for a King's ransom. I am also blessed with a wife who actualy enjoys touring by a/c, as long as the sectors are not too long.

Sure, flying is not the cheapest of hobbies, but ever tried a week's skiing in Verbiers or similar ?

I find leaving an airfield on the North Sea in the morning and then seeing the Med glitter in the late afternoon light as you come over the Massif Central or cruising above an endless sea of sand dunes, flying above LA at night - the list goes on - a most gratifying experience.

I, for one, would not want to live without it.

Happy Landings.

[flyingsteve55]

All of the above makes interesting reading and I can equate to most of it. In my 50's and post-kids and divorce I gained my PPL only a year ago and am probably still in the 'honeymoon' stage. Considering some of the points made and in no particular order I have the following to add for what it's worth.

At present I rent from the training organisation I trained with. Not because I especially want to but because, if I am honest I still feel I need the 'comfort blanket' of having someone I know to help me out when I need it. I am currently trying to find the right group to join - my confidence in my ability is growing and it's time to start doing some decent touring.

The costs associated with renting are close to crippling at times and provide a good case for ownership or group flying. For example during the last 6 weeks

I have had to do the 28 day check flight (requirement of the club)due to the earlier cr*p weather - 0.5 hrs three circuits with instructor just over £100
Six month dual check (requirement of the club) 1.9 hours with instructor that had to include an excursion to the nearest grass strip for a couple of touch and go's £350!!
Return trip to Wellesbourne 1.8 hours £220
Return trip to Goodwood with a bit of bimbling 1.6 hours and another £200 or so
Oh yes and renewal of medical another £150There was earlier reference to training for PPL not preparing the student for life beyond the GST. I was fortunate that the establishment I trained with provided opportunities, and still does, to experience other activities. One such was a weekend trip to Caen to have a go at aeros. What an experience, planning for a long(ish) trip especially over water, navigating across the Channel, dealing with different air traffic requirements and controls, flying a taildragger (CAP10) for the first time and actually being in control whilst doing aeros and finally when the weather turned into IMC for part of the return being able to experience flying in cloud and rain with a qualified and skilled instructor - priceless.

I am by no means a wealthy man but the reason I fly is simple - I love it. I love the feeling of being in control of a machine against whatever the elements throw at me. I love the feeling of freedom and the peacefulness (if you discount the steady drone). Yes I get scared or more accurately nervous from time to time but I don't think I could give it up if wanted to!

My next challenges, more experience on tail draggers, short strip flying, touring. I might have to give it up next week, who knows, but for now I'm well and truly hooked and would be staisfied just punching holes in the sky if it keeps me current. Dammit the old savings account will just have to suffer!

[bogbeagle]

Interesting thread.

I'm not sure that the cost of flying is the determining factor in drop-out, though it may hasten the day for many.

It's been said already that you "have to fly for a purpose". I think that this is a significant factor in drop-out.

An analogy. We each have a car; and motoring is very cheap. How many of us take our cars out just for a drive around? Not many of us, I'll wager. I wouldn't dream of getting into an aeroplane just to stooge around the local country-side.

I'm pretty confident that the piloting drop-out rate is comparable to other activities. Once the individual has achieved his goals...PPL, going solo, or whatever...., it is quite reasonable for him to move on. Back-packer's views most closely echo my own.

It's probably true that most PPls are ill-equipped for cross-country work, but that isn't the schools' fault. There is every opportunity for more adventurous flying than that which is prescribed in the PPL' syllabus...if you are prepared to pay for it.

As to hours'-building instructors...well, you don't have to fly with them. Fly with the instructor that you want; don't be fobbed off; you are the customer, so tell the school that you want to fly with an experienced instructor.

[Pianorak]

IO540 wrote: Ownership is a huge hassle . . .
After two years of sole ownership I can honestly say I find it less of a hassle than hiring a club aircraft. Can’t comment on group ownership but from what I hear that too isn’t necessarily unalloyed joy.
There is less hassle booking out – nobody to check your credentials, nobody to authorize anything, taking tacho readings before and after each flight takes but minutes, keeping the engine and airframe logs up to date is again not very time consuming – and that’s it. Assuming you have a reliable maintenance company you hand your aircraft over when due and collect when ready. Sorted! :ok:

[englishal]

You forgot one IO:
Those who have had the sh*t scared out of them and vow never to fly again:)

Seriously though, I have had had 2 times I have thought "if I get out of this alive I promise never to fly again". Time 1) was flying into embedded Cb's and time 2) was when wake turbulence tried to turn us upside down at 1500' in a 172. Still, I never listen to myself, which is why I'm still flying.:}
---------------------------
I think one of the problems is that it is EXPENSIVE for the average punter. The only way to get useful flying is to commit and buy a share rather than rent IMHO.

If you rent you can't just take the aeroplane away with you for a few days, or else it costs a fortune - which is why I want to be able to fly. For example for me to solo rent a Warrior to go to Jersey for 3 days it'd cost be about 9 hours of flying (£900+). By contrast I can take my aeroplane there and it costs me 2 hours at £40 per hour (plus I get the fuel drawback) and I can leave it on the ground as long as I want.

But as an aeroplane owner you need to be able to get your hands on a few grand at short notice, which not everyone can do........

So swings and roundabouts. I am glad I bought or I very much doubt I'd bother flying in the UK at all - only in the USA.

[IO540]

After two years of sole ownership I can honestly say I find it less of a hassle than hiring a club aircraft

Well I agree with that, very much. By "hassle" I meant there is a considerable learning curve, and for many there are obstacles like problems with maintenance and hangarage.

I reckon that owning a simple spamcan (that can live outdoors) and simply throwing some money at a maintenance form at the Annual, is relatively problem free. A lot of owners do operate like that.

IFR tourers need hangarage, and a lot more TLC in general because you can't afford to have the plane and the equipment rotting.

Englishal, a very valid point I am sure. I have managed to accumulate ~ 800hrs without getting scared but I think most pilots have been there. It may have a bad effect on a pilot who is quite new.

It's probably true that most PPls are ill-equipped for cross-country work, but that isn't the schools' fault

No, they are just teaching the syllabus :ugh::ugh: But I agree with you; the blame for the decrepit training is largely higher up. I say "largely" because the training business is to blame for the high proportion of instructors who are just passing through on their way to the ATPL and most of them have never flown anywhere for real.

Anyway, to move away from negativity... what could one do to improve things?

Mentoring has been suggested, and met with a less than enthusiastic response; I guess because schools are nervous of "their" students spending money elsewhere and getting "dodgy" advice from "mere PPLs". There are loads of PPLs who are very experienced. Some of them also own modern planes, which would expose the newbies to what they could one day be flying in, rather than seeing nothing but old junk. This could make a huge difference to the dropout rate.

A much more achievable FI rating which doesn't need the CPL exams. Currently, a PPL can be an FI but can't be paid anything and AFAIK has still got quite a hill to climb. This would improve on the ATPL hour builder scene, but I doubt many schools would like it because they do like their hour builders, most of whom will work for next to nothing (in some cases I have seen, £10/day or even zero, when not flying).

Syllabus modernisation which supplements the WW1 navigation with GPS. Here we go again ... ;)

One has to remember that a small difference will make a big difference. If say one could reduce the ultimate dropout rate from 90% to 80% that would double the # of active pilots.

[S-Works]

This thread actually makes very interesting reading for a change. As one of those on the IR Working Group and active with the AOPA working groups it is interesting to see varied view points.

I learnt to fly with the RAF when I was young, left the RAF and did not fly again until around 2000 when my wife bought me a ML lesson. I took one flight and was hooked again, flew around 300hrs in 18 months on them and started to realise the limitations so switched to group A. Flew a lot more hours and realised the limitations of the club rental fleets, crap avionics, restrictive hire terms and expense. So bought myself a Cessna 152, flew that for 800hrs over 2 years with the night and IMC thrown in. Decided I wanted faster and went multi engine. Then decided I want more reliable mission capability so went Instrument Rated. Switched the 152 for a 172 XP so I had a real 4 person aircraft and went wild touring all over Europe.

Did a PPL(H) on the way and discovered apart from chasing sheep and short hops for work they were next to useless for the thing I enjoyed most which is going touring.

I have flown two and a half thousand hours since 2001, accumulated commercial Instrument ratings, type ratings and Instructor ratings.

I really enjoy the touring side and like IO540 really like the challenging long distance stuff where you have to organise over flight, fuel etc. I also really like the Instruction side of flying and hope that I put something back into aviation through this.

I also have plenty of hobbies, I dive, play golf, kite surf etc and I fly myself to undertake all of these activities.

So I am proof that flying can be a practical tool.

So whats wrong?

Navigation:

We have a stuck in the dark ages mentality towards navigation, the map and stopwatch are king GPS is the devil, ADF and smoke stacks are the only way to navigate. This may appeal to some just like wiping oil of a chipmunk appeals to others. But it does not appeal to a great many from the technology generation. The fear of an airspace bust from the most complex airspace in the wold while trying to navigate using WWII methods is a big deterrent to many.

Aircraft:

The vast majority of the rental fleet is clapped out spamcans that have to generate a profit for the owners year round. The UK weather does not allow for a profit to be made and upgrades to happen. I drive a new Porsche and get fed up of cheap rental cars 5 minutes after leaving the car park. Flying a crap trainer has the same feeling.

Availability:

The same rental aircraft are expensive to hire by the hour and have restrictive terms for a day or overnight trip. So if you can take it for a night you get stuffed with 6hrs flying time for an overnight in LFAT. £900 buys you 2 weeks in the Maldives.

So what can we do about it?

Ownership is the best choice, there are plenty of syndicates around. I personally don't like syndicates because I fly so much as transport but they are a great way of keeping flying. The permit aircraft are great and cheap but are very limited as touring aircraft a lot of the time, due weather and Day only limitation. A CofA aicraft is the way to go and one with good avionics makes life much better.

Continuing education is the next step. At AOPA we are working on a mentoring scheme to get pilots to develop 21st century navigation skills and general expand the envelope with more experienced pilots. This has met with resistance from the rear guard of old Instructors but we are making progress. Teaching of modern navigation, GPS is a good start!

Instrument Training, we are making progress with the CAA and EASA, a number of things have changed already and further changes are in the pipeline. It seems as I forecast last year we will most likely lose the IMC along with other national ratings under the transfer to EASA so now is the time to think about an IR.

Well thats a few of my ramblings, I have more if anyone is actually interested!

[BackPacker]

What also really helps is being a member of an active flying club.

For a start, if I take friends and family out for a local bimble, we end the flight at the bar, where there are other pilots to talk pilot talk with. And even the most basic club will (should) organize fly-together things like rallies or excursions to other places, allowing you to meet other pilots.

My club also organizes things that make it easier to branch into different areas of aviations. One of these is the "unusual attitudes" day, where they teach you, through a ground briefing and a 45 minute flight, how to recover from attitudes that you would not have seen in the PPL course. 60 degree plus banks, advanced stalls/spins and so forth. And if you do not puke during the exercises, they instantly convert the flight into an introduction to aerobatics flight. This is what got me into aerobatics.

A while ago we had the club flight to Duxford. Four planes and for some of us the first cross-channel experience. There's also the annual summer camp to France. In addition to hotels etc., the club also arranges permission for students and (Dutch) NPPL holders to fly in French airspace. We have the annual target landing practice competition (with a safety pilot on board) to hone your short-field landing skills and a five-rally series throughout the year. We have a formation team, one of the few non-military teams in the world that fly formation with nine aircraft(!) and even displays at air shows. And then there's the open day, charity flights, evening lectures and so forth. Oh, and we do have an FTO as well for CPL, IR and whatnot.

Point is, all these activities are announced on the web site, and enrolling in them only requires a few mouse clicks. This makes it very easy to sample different activities, and to expand your experience under the guidance of experienced pilots or instructors as appropriate. I'm pretty sure I would not be flying half as much as I do now if it weren't for these activities.

[bcfc]

For me the issue is time. With work (60+ hrs/week), family and other commitments, not much is left for me. So typically I will get just a Saturday afternoon free. That doesn't leave many options and often a bimble over my brothers house is all I have time for. There is only so much of that you can do and stay keen.

I would love to pick up on aero's again as that is something that doesn't require all day and does keep me interested. The day the T-67 was sold at my local club was a sad day indeed :(

That said, I will never give up my PPL as I smile the moment the wheels leave the ground.

[Whopity]

Before JAR-FCL came along it was noted that after qualification private pilots continued to fly actively for about 3 years after which time there was a marked reduction to the 10 year point when 90% were no longer active.

This was quoted as an example when the 5 year licence came in, to justify the costs by stating that as less than 90% would be flying after 10 years the cost of issue and one renewal was no more than the cost of a lifetime licence.

Apart from the reduction in numbers qualifying (arround 30%) in 15 years has anything really changed?

[Tim Dawson]

I belong to an incredibly frustrating flying club (Compton Abbas) that won't let you take their rental planes across the channel. They just drag their feet giving one crap excuse after another. I'm at the stage (past it, really) where 1.5 hour journeys to other airfields in the south of the UK don't sound quite as exciting as a proper channel crossing and experimenting with another country.

I was under the impression you didn't save _that_ much money by flying in a syndicate as opposed to renting, but this thread suggests otherwise. Thing is, I would hope to join a syndicate for a plane rather better than the rental spamcans I've been accustomed to flying at CA. Obviously, since that is my local airfield the plane would need to be based there too.

[IO540]

A decent flying club is a form of mentoring, because novice pilots mix with more experienced pilots.

The problem in flying clubs, which I can speak of from personal experience, is that it's allright for as long as everybody is renting from the club (school). The moment one of the members buys his own plane, or buys a share outside the club, he finds himself excluded. So, anybody who gets really experienced will vanish, because almost nobody hangs around the self fly hire scene for long.

This is because when there is a fly-out, the school tries to set it up so that there is always a student in the LH seat and an instructor in the RH seat, so the school gets the full rental, plus the instructor rate, for every leg flown. When I was in a certain club, they were very particular about this. The people in the back could be anybody. When, as an owner, I got invited to come along, it would be only on the basis that anybody flying with me was a non-pilot and therefore no longer a potential customer for the school. Pretty soon, I was not invited anymore.

I am not making any claims for my flying skills, but I do recall that pilots who saw the way I was planning and flying, all as if IFR even if actually under VFR, and using the GPS and navaids, getting weather off the internet, etc, basically all the things which modern pilots do, they were amazed to see this and were very interested. They weren't getting this info from the school, which at the time was not teaching notams (or anything whatsoever that comes via the internet) and not teaching what to do with the red lever... If these suspect procedures got back to their instructors, it would have p1ssed them off.

Of course if you have a proper club (not a school) then it should work very well. But I don't think there are many (any?) of those. I am sure many clubs are more enlightened but this sort of self-interest does put a damper on things.

Whopity - I have always assumed you work for the CAA ;) I do wish the CAA released the data on this, but I am sure your 90% is spot on.

[Pianorak]

IO540 wrote: << . . . The moment one of the members buys his own plane, or buys a share outside the club, he finds himself excluded. . . >>
And I thought it was perhaps my aftershave . . . :ugh:

[BackPacker]

IO540, that's exactly where the difference between a flying school and a flying club comes in.

At my flying club, the club is run by pilots for pilots. Yes, we have instructors, but all of them are freelance and any agreements between the student and the instructor is between them. The club does not get involved and actually, after a flying lesson, you have two bills to pay (separately): the aircraft and the instructor. Although the club does facilitate the instructors by publishing the "standard" rate for an hour of instruction, and offering members the ability to book an instructor together with the plane, on the internet reservations system.

Obviously instructors are club members too, and since they hang around the clubhouse a lot, they actually have a lot of informal influence. But formally, instructors are equal to students to PPL holders as far as the club rules go.

Club activities are activities where everybody is invited. Student, instructor, PPL holder. Bring your own plane if you want, or take a club plane. In fact, some of our club members have bought their own plane and rent it out to club members via the clubs reservation system - although you have to be checked out on these aircraft by the owner first.

We even have people who did their PPL with the club, then went on towards ATPL and have 737 jobs at our airport. They are still very welcome for activities or just to hang around the clubhouse.

So it is very well possible to have a separation of club activities and commercial activities within one organization. But I have found that it does require a board, composed of volunteers, that actually recognise this fact and do their best to maintain that separation in a logical way, that still works for everybody.

[MikeeB]

I took up flying so that I could do aero's. Then during my training, I got a great sense of achievement from the x-country/land away side of things.

Once I obtained my PPL I pretty much found myself in a void, as, from the clubs point of view, they had no interest in me anymore. Not once did an instructor pro-actively inquire as to if I might want to spend more money on learning better navigation skills, all of which would have built up my confidence to fly further afield, alone.

I then went on from ~45hours to 90hours in about 18 months by renting club aircraft, mainly learning aero's. Enjoyed the odd x-country flight, but never ventured far without somebody in the RHS to help out.

Then the time and money syndrome kicked in, and with not being able to spend enough time and money on learning aero's so that I could compete, my interest dropped off. Spending near on 2 hours traveling to the airfield and back didn't help either.

I'm now in the position where I realise that if I want to keep flying, I need to buy in to a group. I also need the group to be based nearby to cut down on the travel time. If this doesn't happen in the next 24 months (I've just renewed via a skills test) then chances are I'll let my license lapse.

As has been mentioned, and I've said it to other people who have mentioned 'learning to fly' - you need a reason to do so, otherwise once you pass the test, you'll probably pack up after flying over your house a few times.

The actual part of learning to fly maybe enough for some people, which is why I keep looking at doing my PPL(H) now ;)

Likewise, I've just had a Porsche Cayman on test drive for 24hours, and that made driving fun again !!!

[sternone]

Likewise, I've just had a Porsche Cayman on test drive for 24hours, and that made driving fun again !!!


Sorry, that's not a porsche.

[MikeeB]

Sorry, that's not a porsche.


Model snobbery slipping in then?

From my own POV, I would never ever ever want either the Boxter or the Cayenne and I told that to the sales guy today. (well the Boxter bit anyway). He said, "ahh, because of the image", and he was right.

Be interested via PM what you think is wrong with the Cayman, so as not to derail the thread.

Likewise my parting comment was that I'd probably still rather buy a 2nd hand 911 than a new Cayman. Still can't get away from the fact that it was a complete hoot to drive.

Cheers

-
Mike

[sternone]

Be interested via PM what you think is wrong with the Cayman, so as not to derail the thread.


People who will drive a Boxter or a Cayman will come up to me and say... well, i didn't bought a 911 because, blablabal, because, blablabla..

while there is only 1 reason why they didn't bought a 911...

[maggioneato]

I am a recent dropout after 13 years of flying and 500+ hours P1. I let the IMC rating lapse, as I started flying out of a privately owned grass strip, it was no good taking off, landing somewhere else if the weather closed in, then my car was many miles away. Night qualification went the same. The group I was in went really sour and I didn't want to stay in it, so I left, then couldn't find anything else, so well out of currency, I am now a dropout. Time is not an issue, neither is cash. Just time to move on maybe.

[sternone]

I am now a dropout. Time is not an issue, neither is cash.

Why don't you buy your own plane ?

[maggioneato]

sternone. I should have done when I first started. I was an old fart when I started flying. I am an even older one now. I just didn't think I would fly for so long. Now I think I am too old to start all over again. One has to give up at some time. Had the weather been kind this year, I would probably have flown club hacks for a while, and maybe would have found something suitable. It's not just a case of buying an aircraft, it's finding somewhere to keep it, and not many airfields to choose from around where I live.

[sternone]

I was an old fart when I started flying. I am an even older one now

How old are you then ? It sounds like a very sad story to me, sorry to hear you are such an old fart. Someone wise to me said to do the things you wan't to do directly in life, and not wait until you become old.

There is not much of a help i can give to you, after all, time flies and we can't buy that back with all the money in the world. I'm 34 and feel that i have done already so much in my life, i hope i can at least double my age.

Why don't you fly all over europe ?

[Whirlybird]

Firstly, let me say that I in no way intend to give up flying at the moment. But after 10 years and over 1000 hours, I'm beginning to understand why people do.

There can come a point, in flying as in everything else in life, when you've done everything you set out to do. When the buzz and the Wow factor hasn't gone, but has lessened...maybe to the point that it's not worth the time and effort required. Or maybe you just fancy doing something new.

It's impossible to understand this when you're very new to flying. You think you'll want to fly and fly and fly, for ever and ever and ever. Maybe you will. Maybe I will. All I know is, I don't get upset and stir-crazy if it rains on a day I wanted to fly, not in the way I used to a few years ago.

I understand where maggioneato is coming from, in a way which, with all due respect, sternone, I don't think you can.

Everything changes, and everyone moves on. And for some people, maybe that means giving up flying and doing something new and equally wonderful. What on earth is wrong with that?

But I ain't doing it yet!!!!!!

[Caullystone]

I am a 6hrs into my PPL training....

This thread makes me think I should just give up now and save the money?

[Gingerbread Man]

Don't. You must have started for a reason. Stick to it and you'll be pleased you did I think, regardless of whether you're still flying in 5 years time. I got my PPL in July 2005, did about 4 hrs flying in the 6 months after that, and then nothing until about 4 weeks ago when I did a multi and night rating. I think the reason is that i'm very 'mission' driven, and don't know what to do with just a plane and some free time and some money to burn.

Interesting point:
The next reason is that renting will get you only so far. Most of the stuff available is absolute crap

Is it actually possible to rent or share anything that was made less than 25 years ago?? All the training aircraft i've seen everywhere have been late 70's, or early 80's and look like they've been made from bits of caravan. I rarely see anything any younger in group ads. Even highly-regarded FTOs use re-painted knackered old warriors. I know it doesn't really make any difference to the flying, but I hesitate to take passengers in such ropey-looking vehicles.

Ginger ;)

[michaelthewannabe]

I'm about half-way through my PPL training. I half-jokingly say to people that I hope I'll get bored of flying in about three years - that's about the time it has taken me to get bored of every other hobby I've ever taken up - because my long-term financial outlook is much rosier that way!

I know a couple of guys who have given up flying. For both of them, it's a combination of having achieved their dream and "got it out of their system"; and the arrival of wife and kids meant that it was difficult to find the time to stay current and even more difficult to justify the cost, which had become a much heftier proportion of their (greatly diminished) disposable income.
If you're not on the salary level of top lawyers or investment bankers, it's quite a big financial sacrifice once you're no longer free and single.

[Viola]

I've had my PPL 10 years and always flown a lot until this last year or two. I've also let my IMC lapse.

Why?

Work, time, energy, weather, being a wimp.

Work is busier so I've less time and energy (also getting a bit older:{). To be confident I need to fly a lot and a combination of work/lack of time and the weather has stopped me flying as much so it's a vicious circle.

It most certainly is NOT because of:-
'old' aircraft - as long as it's well maintained and comfortable, it doesn't bother me what it looks like
unfriendly club - mine is very pleasant
traditional navigation - I like using a map and whizz wheel (and can use VOR/ADF and have a little GPS)
hour building instructors - I've never had a bad instructor and have flown with career, hour building and ex-airline instructors.
problems with hiring - aircraft are usually available and can be taken abroad
not owning an aircraft - I'm not sure I want the commitment, especially as I'm a wimp

[IO540]

If you're not on the salary level of top lawyers or investment bankers, it's quite a big financial sacrifice once you're no longer free and single

That may be a bit of a sweeping statement. A good lawyer might be on £300k. Good fund managers on much more. You can do an awful lot of flying on that...

Flying is not a dirt cheap hobby but equally it isn't that expensive. A really high hour pilot, zooming all over Europe in a nice IFR tourer, might be spending around £20k/year. You can do a lot of VFR flying for a fraction of that.

Also, "free" is not necessarily "single". If you are a bloke who likes flying, and you shack up with a woman who hates it, who is to blame for this?? Nowadays, everybody has options when it comes to relationships. Internet dating has made it far easier than it used to be. There is no excuse for getting stuck with somebody who has a totally different agenda. The problem is that most men are mugs, and go for the first pair of t**s, get her pregnant, and moan they haven't got any freedom :)

[michaelthewannabe]

That may be a bit of a sweeping statement. A good lawyer might be on £300k. Good fund managers on much more. You can do an awful lot of flying on that...

OK, fair point... I exaggerated a little.

Also, "free" is not necessarily "single". If you are a bloke who likes flying, and you shack up with a woman who hates it, who is to blame for this??

Oh sure, I was alluding more to the arrival of children. I'm talking about people earning £50-60k, who suddenly find that the newly-arrived kids are soaking up most of their previously-disposable income... difficult to justify even about £3-4k a year in that situation. I suspect there may be quite a lot of ex-flyers in that situation. Who knows, maybe I'll be in that situation myself in a few years? Given my career as an electronic engineer, I'm unlikely to make lawyer-style money unless I strike entrepreneurial gold.

[BackPacker]

I think the reason is that i'm very 'mission' driven, and don't know what to do with just a plane and some free time and some money to burn.

One word. Aerobatics.

[ChampChump]

I'm going to be cantakerous and try to inject some positivity into a seriously depressing thread.

The pilots I've met and mix with have been flying on average a lot longer than three years, the time loosely cited as a typical drop-off point. The pilots I mix with continue to find it enjoyable, or they would have stopped long ago and spent the money on yachts or repaying the national debt. They may not all be as anoraky as me and mine, but they revel in touring/bimbling/gentle aeros/introducing the great British public to the sky/strip hopping/etc as much as we revel in our flying, which includes a least a few of those items.

I don't think most people drop out because of flaws in the flying world, however flawed it may be, but because the flying world no longer fits their particular world. Domestic arrangements, health issues, money all are significant causes but most know there are ways to continue, even if their flying habits have to change. As someone above said, they move on. We do move on from hobbies, quite often because we want to try other ones. I once enjoyed being part of a chess club, but that was then. I used to enjoy making my own clothes, but it's a time-consuming occupation and flying consumes all the spare. I've chosen flying because it fulfills and stretches, gives experiences I'd never have acquired and having got sucked in, I'm not struggling to escape. I don't think I will until, one day, I get too poor, sick or shot down by regulations and it'll need at least two of those to make it a serious consideration.

I'm one of the 'lucky' ones. I have an old tailwheel aeroplane, fly from a wonderful farmstrip style airfield and enjoy the help and support of wiser men. I suspect too many people these days have to train at places that inadvertently give the impression that such airfields/aorports are the norm and they never or rarely get to experience the full joys of the puddle-jumping world....
One size doesn't fit all, I know.

"I think the biggest single reason is that the whole scene is decrepit, full of anoraks, has few interesting women which ensures that most "modern" men (who still have time and money) will go elsewhere".

Well I've found plenty of interesting men in the scene.
What's a "modern" man?

[Whirlybird]

This is NOT a depressing thread, for Gawd's sake!!!!!

People fulfil their dreams, then move on to other dreams. What on earth is depressing about that? They find something totally wonderful, then being human, want something more. Greedy, yes! Depressing? Why?

In my case, I took up flying to get over a seriously bad time in my life. My sole ambition was to get my PPL and be able to fly to France for lunch.

Almost exactly ten years later, I have a PPL(A), PPL(H), CPL(H) and FI(H) rating. I earn my living as a helicopter instructor and aviation writer, writing regularly for two mags, and I've recently had a book proposal accepted. I've soloed a flexwing microlight, had a go in a glider and an autogyro, tried aerobatics, and traded a helicopter flight for a balloon flight. I've had that lunch in France, and also several flying holidays there plus one to Germany and Austria. I've flown all over the UK and Ireland. I've entered the Dawn to Dusk competition three times and won it once. I've flown in the USA and in Russia. And there's probably a few things I've forgotten.

It's all been wonderful, awesome, fantastic, and life-changing. Indeed, flying has completely changed my life. I will never, ever in a million years regret the day I walked into Welshpool Flying Club and said nervously, "I'm thinking of learning to fly".

But just because I've done so much in a relatively short time...what now? I love instructing, and I'll probably do it for as long as I can...or maybe just till I get tired of it and realise that the aviation writing pays a lot better. But as for flying for fun? I'd like to fly in New Zealand, but it's expensive, and I'm not sure I want to enough to spend all that money. I can't be bothered to spend my few days off boring holes in the sky or going to yet another fly-in. Maybe I would if I didn't fly for a living. Hard to say; I get my fix of flying for a day or two a week anyway.

But....

Recently I took up horse riding again, after a gap of years and years. I absolutely loved it, just as I had in my youth. Why did I ever give it up? I'm rusty, but I'd like to do more. There's a rather nice riding holiday in Andalucia I've seen advertised. It's a bit pricy, but if I don't fly in New Zealand...

That could have been sailing, or golf, or tiddlywinks? You see, flying is so all-consuming, that you can find you don't have time and money for anything else. So is it surprising if eventually, after 3, 5, 10, 20, 30 years, someone decides they fancy a change?

And don't anyone DARE tell me this post is depressing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

(Now, what I really, really, really wanna do is go into space.......)

[D SQDRN 97th IOTC]

You forgot to say you like cats too Whirlybird!

Cats are good.

I have colourpoints. Two boys. I treasure them.

Riding is also a good hobby (but more dangerous than flying). Now for those pilot blokes out there that don't meet enough women, I suggest they learn how to ride and get down to their local stables toute suite. (I did this at University, and acquired a very interesting circle of "friends".)

I had a trial lesson in a rotary once Whirly with cab air at Elstree. The instructor's attitude there put me off rotaries completely.....and I reckon this is why a fair number of PPLs drop out. They love flying, but they run into the occasional person that puts them off.

[Caullystone]

This thread says to me that if I use my head then I should give up beacuse it is a wate of money and I will most likely stop in a few years.

Could I stop?

No... my heart wont allow me to give up on my dreams...

[IO540]

Given my career as an electronic engineer, I'm unlikely to make lawyer-style money unless I strike entrepreneurial gold

That's me too, and that is exactly what I did (started my own business). A lot of pilots are in "IT" in some way.

Well I've found plenty of interesting men in the scene.

It's often not obvious from the pprune nickname if it's a man or a woman ;) A female pilot would do very well indeed on the social front - as indeed she could do in just about every other male-dominated activity.

I don't regard this thread as negative. It's important to identify the issues if one is to address them.

I remain of the view that most people (that are at all able to fly i.e. have the budget and the time) who give up do so because flying does not compete on the hassle to reward ratio against other activities.

If it did compete successfully, the arrival of children should not stop you flying. It takes only a few hours to do a quick trip somewhere. If you are a bloke then your lady can look after the kids while you fly, and in return you can look after them while she goes off and has her gurlz' night out or whatever :)

If the arrival of children changes your family life to a constant mad panic (which is often the case) then not being able to fly will be the least of your problems, I am afraid. I have 2 kids so I know.

Flying does contain a lot of hassle on the ground, and different people get different amounts. A renter gets no ownership hassle but is usually stuck with flying old junk which he can't take away on long away trips, which takes out most utility value. An owner with a nice plane who rents hangarage will probably have the most hassle of all, but then he is probably the most motivated in the first place. Probably the best common situation is somebody who enjoys bimbling in some basic plane and who is based on a farm strip with a barn. The very best is your own plane, your own runway, your own hangar, but that's very hard to achieve.

[Whirlybird]

You forgot to say you like cats too Whirlybird!


How could I have forgotten the cats!!!!!

Mind you, I'm not sure what relevance they have to this thread, but who cares; they should be mentioned. I have a colourpoint boy too...and two elderly Siamese girls, and two moggies. And I'm getting a twelve week old Maine Coon kitten on Wednesday.:ok:

Come to think of it, this is relevant - with six cats it's hardly surprising that I don 't have time or money for much else. But they're definitely worth it.

[sternone]

How could I have forgotten the cats!!!!!


I hate cats!! They are just so difficult to shoot when i'm hunting!!! They just jump to fast from left to right!!! once in a while i'm lucky and i got one!!!

[Whirlybird]

sternone,

I just went right off you. :(

[Saab Dastard]

I am a 6hrs into my PPL training....

This thread makes me think I should just give up now and save the money?

I don't advise you to give up - I am convinced that the regrets you would have later in life if you quit before getting your PPL would be far, far greater than any regrets over the money you spend getting it!

SD

[Fuji Abound]

How could I have forgotten the cats!!!!!

Have you taken them flying?

Apparently they always know the right way up, even in IMC.

This could of course be tested by blind folding the cat, performing a loop and monitoring what the cat did at the top of the loop.

Could be a bit like a miner and his canary.

[Saab Dastard]

Perhaps that's what CAT 2 & 3 procedures refer to? :p

SD

[IO540]

Very good SD :ok::ok:

I hate cats!! They are just so difficult to shoot when i'm hunting!!!

You need the correct tools: a 30ft-lb .22 silenced air rifle, with a Zeiss 50x8 scope. You need an FAC to get one, but they are good for controlling vermin at 70m easily and 100m at a push.

[sternone]

You need the correct tools: a 30ft-lb .22 silenced air rifle, with a Zeiss 50x8 scope. You need an FAC to get one, but they are good for controlling vermin at 70m easily and 100m at a push

That may be possible, but with my BAR Browning short action lead i can't get them, thoose bloody cats!!!

I just went right off you

I understand whirlybird, but i still enjoy your posts!! Hunters hates cats, cats hates hunters, whirlybirds hates hunters!

[Whirlybird]

I am convinced that the regrets you would have later in life if you quit before getting your PPL would be far, far greater than any regrets over the money you spend getting it!

When I was thinking about doing my CPL, a chap in his 70s, who'd had a fairly full and chequered career, told me to go for it because you never regret the things you HAVE done in life, only the things you HAVEN'T. Good advice. :ok:

[D SQDRN 97th IOTC]

so what are people planning to do today?

I'm going to take a twin into Bembridge, and then do nothing more exciting than have a large lunch at the propeller inn, stretch out and read a good book for a couple of hours.

when I'm ready, I'll return to the mainland....

[BackPacker]

At my flying club we had the annual Goodwill day. We took children patients from three local hospitals, a little over 100 in total, flying with about 16 planes and some 40 pilots executing something like 60 flights.

In addition to this we had a ground program with police dog demonstrations, airport tours, fire brigate demos and whatnot.

Very tired now, very rewarding day. And excellent weather of course!

[IO540]

Planning to go to Crete during the next week. The weather over the Alps is not looking great though, and I can't go much above FL180...

[Bahn-Jeaux]

Originally Posted by Caullystone
I am a 6hrs into my PPL training....

This thread makes me think I should just give up now and save the money?

I had the same worries as you when I was training and now as a freshly minted PPL, I wonder what my flying future is. My first flight post PPL was a club checkout, couple of circuits and if the weather doesnt lift, is that my future...constant currency checks?

Also the money side of things, I am not a wealthy man but could afford to get my licence in a reasonable time, 18 months (last 4 spent waiting for the right weather) but as others have said, things change, finances are not as fluid as they once were and I have recently started a small business alongside my full time job in an effort to improve both my lifestyle and flying future. This has the knock on effect of reducing time available to me.

The upshot of it all is this, Do I regret spending the money for my PPL?
Absolutely not, I loved every minute of it and even if I never flew again would not go back and change things. I have achieved a lifelong ambition and loved it more than I thought I would.

My present position is one where current desires are not met by available income so I do feel frustrated but I am not disheartened.

The recent checkride, although what many consider mundane, still gave me that buzz of sitting in the LHS and I will do whatever I can to make sure I keep on flying.

Ps, anyone wanna buy my granny?

[Fuji Abound]

The weather over the Alps is not looking great though, and I can't go much above FL180...

I wonder why you think so .. .. ..

the front tracking south looks like it will clear the Alps during Tuesday as the high dominates. I would have thought Wednesday should provide a good transit, or certainly if not by staying further west and transiting along the coast the weather would seem pretty good.

[sternone]

Planning to go to Crete during the next week. The weather over the Alps is not looking great though, and I can't go much above FL180...

How was your other 3500nm trip into europe last weeks IO ?

[IO540]

Fuji - I agree. However, Monday's front might have lower tops by then than the current FL220. Otherwise we go Tuesday/Wednesday.
Stern - same trip, that's the first leg I referred to.

[ChampChump]

This is NOT a depressing thread, for Gawd's sake!!!!!
Whirly, I found it depressing that some seem to think we are obliged to perform some breast-beating when people stop flying, when it's clear to many there are plenty of positives, which was, admittedly very awkwardly expressed, the attempted point of my post. As has been evidenced since that page, there is a wide and happy diversity of experience, ambitions and activities amongst the flying fraternity/sororiety. I agreed that people move on, usually having enjoyed their flying immensely.

[sternone]

Whirlybird:
sternone,

I just went right off you

Sunday, 2 September 2007, 06:28 GMT 07:28 UK

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/6974687.stm

Australians cook up wild cat stew
By Phil Mercer
BBC News, Sydney


Wild cats eat marsupials, lizards and birds
Australians have come up with a novel solution to the millions of feral cats roaming the outback - eat them.

The felines are the descendants of domestic pets and kill millions of small native animals each year.

A recent Alice Springs contest featured wild cat casserole. The meat is said to taste like a cross between rabbit and, perhaps inevitably, chicken.

But wildlife campaigners have expressed their dismay that Australia's wild cat now finds itself on the nation's menus.

Cat stew recipe

Feral cats are one of the most serious threats to Australia's native fauna.


One of the competition judges found the meat impossibly tough and had to politely excuse herself and spit it out

They eat almost anything that moves, including small marsupials, lizards, birds and spiders.

The woman behind the controversial cat stew recipe has said Australians could do their bit to help the environment by tucking into more feral pests, including pigeons and camels.

But it was a recipe for feline casserole that impressed some of the judges at an outback food competition in Alice Springs.

Preparing this unusual stew seems simple enough.

The meat should be diced and fried until it is brown. Then lemon grass is to be added along with salt and pepper and three cups of quandong, which is a sweet desert fruit.

It is recommended that the dish be left to simmer for five hours before being garnished with bush plums and mistletoe berries.

Marinated moggie was not to everyone's taste. One of the competition judges found the meat impossibly tough and had to politely excuse herself and spit it out in a backroom.

Wild cats are considered good eating by some Aborigines, who roast the animals on an open fire.

This outback cuisine does come with a health warning.

Scientists have said that those eating wild cats could be exposed to harmful bacteria and toxins.

[MadamBreakneck]

Englishal wroteI think one of the problems is that it is EXPENSIVE for the average punter. I think you've hit the nail on the head.

When I started microlight flying I calculated that (post licence) my break-even point for owning a share in a microlight like a 'good old' Thruster TST compared with hiring a club aircraft like a C152 was something like 16hrs per year*. In my first 12 months as a licenced microlight pilot I flew something in excess of 30 hours and I've never flown less than 20hrs in a year since. I never could have afforded that in a club-hired machine.

The sad thing (in my view) is that the hotship microlights are commanding such a premium that most commercial schools and factories are forgetting the lower cost end of the market. I recently asked Thruster to quote me a price for the equivalent of their popular classic. They don't do it any more and the nearest to it was over £20k including VAT for an open-cockpit, two-stroke-powered taildragger - no wonder they're not selling fast, you can by a fully restored original for under £5k.

Meanwhile, most 3-axis microlight schools are moving over to Eurostars, CTSWs and C42s following the demand by those with the money to pay the prices which pay the wages. Because that's what people learn on, that's what they then expect to buy. So again the poor chap on average earnings is frozen out of the game again. Whatever happened to recreational aviation for 'the common man'?

Let's hope the sub-115 single seat category revitalises this lower-cost end of the sport.
MadamB
:sad:
*This did include the cost of servicing the loan to buy my share

[NorthSouth]

in some cases I have seen, £10/day or even zero, when not flyingWhat do you mean "even"? I've never been paid a cent other than for flying hours in 6 years of instructing, and believe me the hours spent farting around on the ground WAY exceed those spent in the air. I know CFIs in their 50s "living" on less than £12,000 a year.

Coming back to the original thread, prompted by the article in AOPA General Aviation claiming a PPL dropout rate of 70% in 5 years, I reckon this is the usual playing fast and loose with statistics:
1) Do we know what the dropout rate was before JAR? No, because there was no 5-year renewal. So you can't assume from a snapshot that it's worse than before.
2) We are in a period of unprecedented boom in commercial pilot jobs. Huge numbers of people who started with a PPL 5+ years ago are now flying airliners on a CPL or ATPL. Do they renew their PPLs? No, of course not, why would they? But a fair few of them will still keep up a single engine piston class rating on their ATPL. Do they appear in the PPL renewal stats? No.

NS

[Compton Flying Club]

Hi Tim,
I've only just found your post so wasn't aware that you had an issue with organising a cross channel flight. If you have any "frustrations" let someone here know directly and we'll deal with it straight away. Had I not found this thread by chance we would never have known!
There is no reason whatsoever that you can't hire one of our "spamcans" for a trip to France or beyond. With 3 warriors we should be able to find a suitable time for you to make this trip. We also have a 172SP and an AA5 both capable of lifting four people and fuel specifically for these kinds of trips. Not sure if you've had a look at either of these but I'm sure that you'd agree they come with a lot of extra spam i.e. GPS, leather seats, auto pilot etc etc.
With regard to crap excuses I can't think why we wouldn't want you or any member to go flying to France. All I can think you must be referring to is the club's cross channel check flight. Which is there purely for professional and safety reasons. I can't imagine many pilots or syndicates that would be happy making a cross channel flight for the first time without having a suitably experienced pilot alongside.
Give me a shout and we can sort it out for you next time you're in.
Happy New Year,
Saul
"I belong to an incredibly frustrating flying club (Compton Abbas) that won't let you take their rental planes across the channel. They just drag their feet giving one crap excuse after another. I'm at the stage (past it, really) where 1.5 hour journeys to other airfields in the south of the UK don't sound quite as exciting as a proper channel crossing and experimenting with another country.
I was under the impression you didn't save _that_ much money by flying in a syndicate as opposed to renting, but this thread suggests otherwise. Thing is, I would hope to join a syndicate for a plane rather better than the rental spamcans I've been accustomed to flying at CA. Obviously, since that is my local airfield the plane would need to be based there too."

[machel]

I've just found this thread. It makes interesting reading. I've had my PPL-A for two years now and have just done my SEP revalidation.

I can't imagine a time when I'll ever want to give up flying! I just love being up there. I love the freedom, the peace, the views, the three-dimensional challenge. I fly amongst or above the mountains most of the time. There's the constant challenge of reading the wind and the weather.

I fly just for the sake of it, although I have gone to a few different places. I never get bored. The views are constantly changing where I live, the light constantly changes, we can fly as high or as low as we want - more so on the weekends when the danger areas aren't in use and there's less chance of low-flying jets.

I own a share in a ULA, which only costs me around £18 an hour to run. It's only a very small, 2-seater, but as I like to fly on my own - for the peace and quiet - then it's not a problem. So, I can fly as much as I like because it is so cheap. I couldn't afford to keep hiring club aircraft, which was what I did for the first 50 hours or so of my flying.

When I was hiring club aircraft, there was a 30-day currency rule. With the weather in this part of the world, that was hard to keep up, and so I ended up having to do currency checks with an Instructor before I could fly. Getting an instructor at a weekend was difficult. Then there is an annual currency check that must be done every year. Again if you've only got a weekend, it's difficult. With my own aircraft, I have the freedom to fly as much or as little as I want.

My ambition is to go touring further afield in 2008, possibly to France. My aircraft is a Permit aircraft so I know the limitations, but that's all part of the challenge.

Everyone has different reasons for getting their licence but for me, it was the achievement of a lifetime ambition and, now that I've got it, it's better than I ever thought it would be. :ok:

[mostlytossas]

Well here in australia the drop out rate is also high though don't think it would be as high as 70% like stated in the UK. After reading the above posts I'm not surprised going on your charge out rates and landing fees. My sympathies with you all and please don't send them down here. I am in a syndicate who own an Archer and we charge ourselves A$120/TACHO hr wet. Landing fees average around $10 for most non major airports( such as Sydney,Melbourne etc) but each capital city has at least 1 GA airport so it doesn't matter. Still we all complain about that as up untill about 10yrs ago they were free.
Happy New Year to you all anyway.

[Henry Hallam]

"the club's cross channel check flight. Which is there purely for professional and safety reasons. I can't imagine many pilots or syndicates that would be happy making a cross channel flight for the first time without having a suitably experienced pilot alongside."

I made my first cross-channel flight solo with a little over 50 hours total time, and have made several crossings since. On a good VFR day and with some help beforehand with the paperwork there is absolutely no need to bring an instructor along. It is not any different or more difficult than any other cross-country.

[BackPacker]

Agree completely. I had something like 75 hours total time when I did my first crossing (Rotterdam-KOK-DVR-Blackbushe and back in one day for a business trip). I did talk things over with a fellow pilot who had done the crossing a few times, had a good read of the various AIPs and so forth, got me and my passenger a lifejacket and off we went.

Proper Planning Prevents etc.

But I have to say I'm glad I was flying a fully IFR capable DA-40 with 2xGNS430 (with the flightplan properly put in), autopilot etc. It's just easier to maintain situational awareness with a moving map and a magenta line, and in the perfect-VFR-is-almost-the-same-as-IFR conditions having an autopilot to keep the plane level while the pilot attends to other duties also helps.

[GLGNDB]

I fall into the PPL-A drop out category. Did the PPL in the USA in 99, and joined a club when I got back. A combination of factors - weather, instructor leaving, aircraft I was trying to get checked out on requiring extended maintenance and a lack of cash led to my licence lapsing. I joined a different club a couple of months before the licence was due to lapse with a view to try and keep it current - however the weather put paid to that.

In the time since my licence lapsed, I have considered going and renewing it - even asking for advice on this forum, but to date have done nothing about it.

Would I like to renew my licence? An unequivocal yes to that.

Can I afford to renew my licence? Yes, as I am in a better paid job than I was when I first got my PPL.

Will I renew my licence? Undecided on this last question. I have made enquiries about doing a re-validation package at the school I first attended in the US, as I can save money and get the licence re-validated in the next few months. I have also made tentative enquiries about getting the medical renewed. However I still have some nagging doubts - do I really want to spend the sums of money required to re-validate the PPL and keep it current? What will I do with the PPL once I re-validate it, spend ages trying to get checked out at a club again and lose interest or get a check ride and actually make use of having the licence?

At the moment I am edging about 60/40 towards re-validating the licence.

The only regret I have is that I spent in excess of £7000 getting the licence and at the moment have very little to show for it.

[mostlytossas]

strike a light mate....just how far is it across the chanel? Checkrides, safety pilots? You wouldn't be out of gliding distance for more than a few minutes would you? In any event even if the big fan did stop there would be dozens of surface vessels at any one time below wouldn't there?
Pick one and ditch next to and infront of it. We cross the bass straight regularly 100nm with only King Island about half way and often not a ship to be seen. Just take a lifejacket (mandatory) and portable ELB in your pocket and off you go.

[IO540]

I think there are basically two kinds of uses for a license: pleasure and utility.

Of course these can be combined on any given flight.

But all the time one is doing flights without utility value (the proverbial £100 burger runs, most of which could be driven in a similar time) one is going to be questioning whether the fun part is worth the money and the hassle.

I think most pilots who give up - other than for purely financial or pressing family reasons - do so because they got into the £100 burger rut and eventually ran out of interest.

So, bring a bit of utility into your flying. This is easy enough in the southern UK from where you can fly into France in an hour or two but a drive would be a huge hassle (farting around through the channel tunnel or worse still queing up shoe-less at some big airport) so there is great utility value. Many day trips can be done which would never be possible otherwise, and which are a great pleasure for passengers too.

There is a big crowd in GA which slags off utility flying but ultimately this is what keeps you from chucking it in.

The hassle on the ground will never go away. That's how aviation has been structured over many decades and countless thousands of jobs have been invented around it. One can chip away around the edges, one can certainly get better organised (electronic route and weather planning, web-based flight plan / GAR filing), one can improve the general arrangements (buy into a syndicate operating something nice) and one can make the flight a less stressful experience (by using a decent GPS) but ultimately the flight has to deliver something which you can't get by jumping into a car.

Getting an IMCR or an IR also helps greatly but this is another subject because one needs access to a decent IFR plane, plus the budget for currency, to make the use of it.

[rotorfossil]

A very interesting thread, but a little depressing. I have been exceptionally lucky in my flying career; fixed wing and helicopter training and interesting flying paid for by Her Majesty, instructor and examiner paid very well by large commercial school, writing flight test articles for major aviation magazines so lots of different types. Now retired, but I love flying as I always have and keep the faith by helping out by a bit of helicopter instructing and examining, PFA coaching and flying a parachute aircraft. BUT, I also have a share in a PFA aircraft and I see that last year I flew it for about 6 hours. All the events that I wanted to go to were weather effected, and whenever I planned to just go somewhere the weather or the crosswind or non aviation activities interfered.
I suppose what I am saying is that if the latter was the only flying available to me, I might be asking if it was worth the effort. And maybe this scenario is typical of some of those that drop out.
I agree that some of those that drop out have simply moved on to other licences. When the company that I worked for was offering sponsored training, a requirement for even getting an interview was to have a PPL. It was quite apparent that a fair proportion of the interviewees only got a PPL to be eligible for the sponsored CPL/H training.

[Whirlybird]

I think most pilots who give up - other than for purely financial or pressing family reasons - do so because they got into the £100 burger rut and eventually ran out of interest.


I agree with IO540 (doesn't happen often ;):)) However, there are a number of things you can do when the novelty of the £100 bacon buttie wears off...

1) As IO540 says, use your flying for something useful, that would be a hassle any other way.

2) Especially if you're low hours and/or short of cash, find another PPL to fly with. Half the money, half the work, twice the fun. If they have more experience than you, that's even better.

3) Get into flying touring....related to above but not necessarily the same. Buy a share, or find a school/club that will let you take an aircraft away for at least a couple of days. Quite a few will do this, especially if you go during the week; if yours won't look elsewhere. Then airfield hop, and stay somewhere overnight. Northern France, Scotland, and Ireland are great for this, but even closer to home (wherever that is for you) brings a whole new dimension to your flying. Suddenly you're an aerial wandering minstrel, finding a place to stay and eat, and setting off in the morning to go...who knows.

4) Get more qualifications - IMC, night rating, taildragger conversion, etc.

5) Learn to fly something new - helicopter, microlight, glider etc. Each of these is a whole new world, apart from the flying skills.

6) Get into aerobatics. I know at least one person who says he'd have given up by now if he had to fly right way up all the time. Not my cup of tea personally, but it might be yours.

7) If you find studying interesting and/or a challenge, work slowly towards a CPL and FI rating. It's interesting and useful, and gives you something to aim at. It might eventually give you a really great part time job - you'll get paid to fly...or at least to let people who can't fly try to kill you. :) Never mind if you'll never recoup your investment; you're doing this because you want to.

8) Take flying holidays. British instructor Sue Burgess-Virr in France more or less specialises in flying with Brits, and offers accommodation too, see www.almostheaven.com. Or you can go practically anywhere you (and maybe the family) want to go, and just book some duel flying for a day or two or ten.

9) Get into air racing. I don't know much about this, but I think you only need 100 hours P1 to start...and it's a whole new world.

10) Bear in mind that you don't have to revalidate by doing 12 hours every 2 years; you can do it far more quickly and cheaply by doing a test with an examiner. Friends who've done this assure me that it's usually quite quick and painless...though if you're really rusty it might take a bit longer.

And if none of that lot even remotely grabs you...then maybe it's time to give up and take up golf or tiddlywinks.

[micromalc]

Well, what an interesting thread.Lots of wise words being expressed. Okay,lots of people give up flying but more importantly, how do we attract new young blood to the sport? I've been flying on and off for 30 years and now have become one of the grey haired members of the flying world and when I look around around my local flying club 80% of my colleagues are also grey haired. Lets face it, it is hard to compete with activities such as hang gliding, snow boarding, surfing, paragliding etc etc etc.and a fellow club member was whining about his lack of "love life" the other day, so I recommended that he should give up flying for a while and take up horse riding and ball room dancing.(thank God my wife also enjoys flying).
We have to find a way to make taking a PPL more fun and less expensive.
(maybe include basic aeros in the course) if not WE become the dinosaurs.

[IO540]

how do we attract new young blood to the sport?

This one has been done to death here also.

Most people posting on pilot forums are aviation anoraks who have been hanging around the GA scene for years and they have come to accept the present scene (rotting spamcans mostly) as normality. They will never accept any suggestions on this topic and indeed many of them fear change because it threatens their flying environment.

It's obvious that a big change has taken place in our society over the past 30 years or so.

In 1970, a new Vauxhall Viva or a Hillman Hunter was a symbol of having made it. A new Ford Capri drew a massive crowd - practically the whole school piled into the car park to see it.

Today, nothing short of a Ferrari driven through the middle of a council estate gets much notice and then only to get the wheels nicked.

Almost everybody with a job can afford to buy anything they want for a basic lifestyle: a car, furniture, TV, VCR, gadgets, etc.

So, peoples' expectations and standards have gone up a LOT. The Youth Hostel Association has had a crisis because people are no longer interested in roughing it 1960s style in unheated huts.

But GA is still in the 1970s rut. Just look around. You see a load of pilots in their 60s and 70s and I can tell you they didn't learn to fly last year. They learnt to fly 20-30 years ago.

You do get young people in occassionally. Many are just dead keen - my son would happily fly anything just to fly. But most are pleasure flight customers who get into a 1970s Cessna on the basis that it didn't fall apart on the last flight so it will be OK on this one. And the keen ones are usually people who haven't got the money to hang in there for long.

To draw new blood you need to raise standards all around. New planes, clean well organised schools/clubs.

This is not easy because their is little choice of training planes that are modern and can be banged around without breaking. Also most airfields already have a school which operates the old wreckage and they won't change, and they will always undercut any newcomer.

One also needs a modernised syllabus. Anybody who can work a PC will just fall over laughing at the sight of map+compass navigation and the stupid circular slide rule. The determined ones grind through it and buy a GPS as soon as they can, while the rest just find it all too much, the risk of getting lost and busting airspace etc. Most pilots have a constant fear of getting into trouble - supported by all the threatening and patronising flyers and literature which is rammed down everybody's throat - which makes flying stressful. One needs a modern syllabus where you learn to do things in a modern way. Very few pilots actually want to replicate WW2 methods.

Anybody with the funds to really fly is going to be earning above national average, although much obviously depends on one's situation (family etc). And these people are not interested in roughing it. They have high expectations everywhere they go. If you get them to climb into some piece of wreckage which has a pool of water on the floor and stinks like an old phone box, they won't like it at all.

A lot of it is catch-22. The decrepit scene drives women away and the lack of interesting women keeps most young men away, which in turn ensures the social scene is made up of a lot of old men moaning about landing fees. Men will (to a degree) participate in a decrepit environment but most women won't - one needs a very slick clean organisation to draw them in. IMHO the lack of women in the GA social scene keeps vast number of potential male customers well away. Most men earning the money are quite busy and they will spend their weekends where they get a reasonable "return" ;)

I am sure things will change 10-20 years from now, purely through attrition of the old guard and scrapping of the old junk, but by that time yet more airfields will be threatened with closure and avgas will cost god knows how much.

[robin]

>>>>>>We have to find a way to make taking a PPL more fun and less expensive.<<<<

Agreed, but the way things are going, less expensive is not an option.... at least as far as EASA and CAA are concerned.

[micromalc]

all true words...
if
I was twenty years younger and fitter I would now be hang gliding in the alps surrounded by "cool" young men AND women.

[Whirlybird]

IO540,

If you are right...

Why are helicopter schools struggling to get students, except possibly in the south-east of England and Southern Ireland, the areas with money, perhaps? Elsewhere we have modern machines, people love trial lessons, but the only reason ever given for not taking it up is "I can't afford it".

Why aren't women attracted to the helicopter scene? I ak them, when their husbands, boyfriends etc come for trial lessons..."Why don't you have a go". The answer, almost universally... "Oh no, I couldn't". An increase in women's self-confidence has not come about with time moving on, or not to any huge extent. Unfortunate (and to me, incomprehensible) but true.

Why are the majority of new helicopter students still over 40? And telling me they couldn't afford it when they were younger?

Why do most of them still want to learn on one of our fairly old and somewhat uncomfortable R22s, when we have two new and comfortable R44s, one fuel-injected. And why is the R22 what most of them are planning on buying. Could it be...the expense?

The helicopter social scene - or parts of it - are pretty cool - fly into nice hotels etc. So why aren't women and young men flocking to it in droves?

Sorry mate, but you're over-simplifying a rather complex issue. :(

[IO540]

Whirly I never pretended to write an exhaustive treatise on "why" (even if I knew "why") but anyway I think helis are a world with different variables.

My involvement with helis has been only very peripheral but they seem to have the following characteristics which differ a lot from fixed wing GA

1) They shake and rattle like hell and generally feel like they aren't going to make the trip - unless you are looking at a £1M+ turbine job

2) They have much more utility value (than FW) for short (under 200nm) trips, and they can land more or less anywhere, but are no good for real touring due to low speed, poor range and no autopilots.

3) There is no IFR capability, the IR(H) is hard, and (unlike FW) not many of the pilots are willing to fly VFR in IMC. This leads to scud running as the solution to all weather issues.

4) They are very tiring to fly any distance

5) They cost about 2x more than FW, and this ratio holds at the turbine level of both activities too.

I think it's a very different market. There is a considerable fun element for local sightseeing trips but the utility value hangs almost entirely on getting value out of short quick trips, and IMHO most normal people would soon get fed up with flying to nice hotels for a 4 course meal. France is only just doable.

It looks a strictly "local pleasure flight" type of market, and beyond that the utility value hangs on the punter having a business of just the right type which needs short notice travel in the 100-200nm radius and there is a helipad nearby.

A lot of single high earning men like to play with helis, at the £300/hour level, the way that those types of men like to play with jet-skis and powerboats etc etc, but few women are into macho hobbies like that. I don't think it's a female confidence issue.

At the top of the market, twin IFR capable turbines, it's very different but one could say the same about exec jets - no shortage of money at the very top, ever. And not many owners fly it themselves.

[ChildhoodAmbition]

Yep. IO540 seems (to me) to have summed up why I didn't go flying until recently (if 3 axis Microlight is called flying round here). He may still have a point.

20 years ago, I tried the Ce**na trail flight route and yes, sitting in a damp phone box smelling of something not completely unlike pee whilst an engine that probably got built around the same time as I was born was "fired" up - adding oil smoke and petrol fumes to the mix - seemed somewhat less than aspirational to my idealistic 30 year old mind.

Then I found out that smells, heat and bouncy air made me less than enthusiastic about the actual flying, although I was proud enough to not actually throw up whilst in the air.

Plus the seats didn't adjust and my legs were too short without cushions and the windscreen misted up and..... well, imagine a flying Ford Popular. You know, the side-valve model...with no heater..or wipers...or brakes and with no front seats, just some foam extending the back ones forward - oh and a bonnet which slopes upwards, blocking the important bits of the view.

Now 20 years later I am learning to fly something smaller and younger. Granted the engine is out of a ski-doo but it has overhead valves and new fangled water cooling - allegedly.

On the downside the seats still don't adjust but the designer was smaller. And while I'm at it the heater is like the one on my old VW Beetle but the exhaust is stainless steel so it "probably won't crack" - but just in case it does there is a little white dot stuck to the dashboard or whatever it's called and look, it's a muddy grey colour. Hmm. (Note to self, will it turn black faster than I turn green?)

But relax fella, this is all by design, that lack of creature comforts is to do with the fact that two up, the aeroplane in question is illegal with more than a teacup of fuel in the tank unless I lose weight some weight.


Seriously. 20 years ago I was more aspirational and I needed to be able to see the payoff at the outset - sadly the advantages and the glamour of those wee smells and that 1950's technology just passed me by.

Now, 20 years later I think I am better able to do things which don't make sense to my head. I don't need to see the future but in any case things have moved on...slowly.

It is a long standing ambition after all.

[PompeyPaul]

Just one thing. Yes, money is a huge issue, plus the availability (or lack of) of aircraft for you to take away for the weekend.

Biggest barrier to my flying ? Got the cash, it's the wx. Unless I book to fly EVERY weekend, ideally both days, then I loose lots of days due to wx. Giving every weekend to flying is impracticle, with family commitments \ DIY etc etc.

So that's your attrition rate. If you are not significantly moneyed, don't have an IR or can't commit every weekend, then the amount of flying open to you, is pretty minimal.

Hence it's easier to use that cash to go for long city breaks away and luxury holidays, rather than a £300 round trip to somewhere it would've cost you £30 in petrol to get to (and would've got you there reliably).

[IO540]

I wasn't going to put salary figures on this because last time I did I got severely jumped on by a certain GA "sub-constituency" but now that others have done it for me...

The "absolute highest earners" are not £50k. They are on £100k+ and many businessmen are on £200k-£500k. These are the people with turboprops and jets. They are the ones driving £80k+ cars, of which you probably see a few per minute on the M25.

But even much further down the "machinery" scale the costs are still amazingly high. An old piston twin, say a 1970 Aztec, can easily cost you £20k a year just in maintenance, and somebody with any sort of family will need to be on £100k to even barely afford that, and do some flying as well (at some 30 USG/hour of avgas plus IFR route charges).

Somebody on £50k with a home to run will be only just able to fly something like a PA28, maybe 50hrs/year.

I don't think many people under £100k are seriously playing with helicopters, and the huge majority of £100k earners will be male.

For fixed wing, the only way for someone on say £25k to do any flying is through a syndicate and even then it will be on a minimal currency. Unless they fly a microlight type or similar, but then you don't get most of the utility value for various reasons.

With helicopters, the figures are going to be twice as bad. I see a lot of them at my airfield and I see the people who fly them.

With both rotary and fixed wing, one can escape much of the limitations but only through the application of a huge amount of cash (turbines). This kind of cash is beyond 99% of FW GA and is beyond perhaps 80% of rotary GA. The remaining 20% of heli users are seriously rich people who get tremendous value from zooming along in virtually any weather, from anywhere to anywhere including their back garden.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

'Ang on. What happened to wanting to fly just for the sheer joy of 3-dimensional freedom? Not transport, not touring, just 'aviating'

IO540 is no doubt correct with his financial analysys of who can afford what, but there are loads of people at the bottom of his scale on relatively low salaries who have an absolute ball most weekends in group-owned aeroplanes like J3 Cubs, Citabrias, Tipsy Nippers and other PFA types. They bimble about looking at the view, dropping into farm strips, or enjoying simple aeros all for a similar cost to running a small car.

No-one in their right senses flys a club spamcan for this kind of flying - not for long, anyway. You'd die of boredom while rapidly emtying your wallet.

I'm not in the least interested in 'touring' (boring starightand level for hours? no thanks!). I love aeroplanes of character, aeroplanes that handle well, that are fun just to fly for flying's sake, and which are aerobatic. For the last 29 years have had a share in a dH Chipmunk, and that presses all the aviation buttons for me.

I don't care that it has no heater

I don't care that it's noisy

I don't care that it has no storage space

I don't care that I have to crawl under it after every flight wiping the oil off (OK, I do, but I'm prepared to put up with that)

I don't care that it only has a 90knt cruise

It is ALWAYS fun just to get airbourne in it. It blatters ans shakes and 'talks to you' through the stick and rudder. It is the sweetest handling flying machine you could wish to strap on. It does lovely, graceful, 'Sunday Afternoon' aeros, and is always a challenge to land perfectly (but relatively forgiving of mistakes). It gets into and out of farm strips with ease. It generates interest wherever it goes. It looks like a little Spitfire.

It oozes character. And it is affordable.

If today's generation isn't turned on by any of the above.... the loss is truly theirs.

SSD

[micromalc]

Shaggy Sheep Driver, I'm with you 100% on this one except for me it's a Yak52 and a super-cub.

[frontlefthamster]

Almost every GA airfield I have flown into in the last five years revels in being filthy, costly, and ugly. There's something approaching delight in the way that flying clubs embrace dirty portakabins and furniture which a charity would condemn to the skip.

Yes, PA28s and C152s are appalling aircraft to fly, and people who train on DHC1s might keep flying much longer, but the sheer discomfort - and delight in discomfort - which UK GA thrives on, explain the whole thing for me.

[IO540]

but the sheer discomfort - and delight in discomfort - which UK GA thrives on, explain the whole thing for me.

A lot of truth in that :) I flew a very nice to fly PFA type recently (a tandem) and the freezing draught coming in through the holes would have frozen my b011ocks off on any significant flight.

IO540 is no doubt correct with his financial analysys of who can afford what, but there are loads of people at the bottom of his scale on relatively low salaries who have an absolute ball most weekends in group-owned aeroplanes like J3 Cubs, Citabrias, Tipsy Nippers and other PFA types. They bimble about looking at the view, dropping into farm strips, or enjoying simple aeros all for a similar cost to running a small car.

You describe a significant and growing part of GA, SSD, but it is only a part and it isn't big enough by a long way to support the GA infrastructure in the UK. It can expand to the limits of the farm strip scene but that is as far as it is going to get, and much of the FS scene is closed off anyway because many strip owners want to keep a low profile.

Also most people can't spend whole weekends on flying as a social activity. It's a bit like sailing - it takes over your life. The people that do this are very dedicated but the source of newcomers to the activity is pretty tight. I knew a whole lot of these types when I used to windsurf at a certain lake, managed by a very tight sailing club. The participants are either single men, or whole families.

Underneath all this, the PPL training sausage machine grinds away happily, churning out some 3000 new PPLs every year, most of which never get anywhere. But the schools don't mind - it's not their business mandate to turn out pilots, never mind ones who get value out of it. If every PPL student was made to sit down at the outset and had the options explained to him, relative to his means (money and time), bit like you sit down with an IFA advising you on your investments :) most would leave immediately.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

Shaggy Sheep Driver, I'm with you 100% on this one except for me it's a Yak52 and a super-cub.

Had many happy hours in the Cub (L4 and Super), and had a share in a Yak52 for a couple of years.

With aeroplanes like those (and Stampes and Jungmans and plenty of others), who could possibly tire of aviating?

SSD

[micromalc]

yeah, like I said earlier, we may be becoming "dinosaurs", but what a way to go.

[Contacttower]

You know I've always wondered if there might be some mileage in setting up a club to teach PPL completely on 'traditional' types. The Super Cub is the plane I'd have in mind simply because it's cheaper to run than the Chipmunk for example but the J3 and Tigermoth would also be ideal.

I know a few clubs that offer that, the Tiger Club at Cambridge and Clacton Aero club as well but they are few and far between. They are so much better than beaten up old PA28s/C152s.

Do it in something like the Aviat Husky and you could teach the IMC rating and IR as well as farmstrip flying, it would be great.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

Also most people can't spend whole weekends on flying as a social activity. It's a bit like sailing - it takes over your life. The people that do this are very dedicated but the source of newcomers to the activity is pretty tight. I knew a whole lot of these types when I used to windsurf at a certain lake, managed by a very tight sailing club. The participants are either single men, or whole families.

That's how I found the Gliding movement to be - singles, or second-marrieds, the new spouse being already into the sport, the original having ended the marriage due whole weelends spent at the gliding club.

I fly the Chippy for up to a few hours every 3 weeks or so on average, with the occasional longer stint. Not a big time comittment - I have lots of other stuff in my life.

Underneath all this, the PPL training sausage machine grinds away happily, churning out some 3000 new PPLs every year, most of which never get anywhere. But the schools don't mind - it's not their business mandate to turn out pilots, never mind ones who get value out of it. If every PPL student was made to sit down at the outset and had the options explained to him, relative to his means (money and time), bit like you sit down with an IFA advising you on your investments most would leave immediately.

Quite so. But if an 'aviation IFA' had sat down with me, he'd have convinced me of what I already half suspected - that flying was far too expensive for me to do so I should forget it. And he'd have prob 90 convinced me and he'd have been 100% wrong!

Luckily, insted of the 'IFA' I read Bach's 'A Gift of Wings' which inspired me. It lead to two of the best things I ever did in my life - learn to fly and then buy into the Chippy.

I think the UK flying school business is these days a feeder to the airlines, too many of the instructors are low-hours hour-builders with no interest in flying for its own sake. In 1979 when I did my PPL, most of the instructors were real enthusiasts, with tailwheel and aeros experience.

That's denied to most new trainees these days. No wonder they give up.

SSD

[Gertrude the Wombat]

Underneath all this, the PPL training sausage machine grinds away happily, churning out some 3000 new PPLs every year, most of which never get anywhere.
Whilst I'm sure most do give up because of the cost, I think we don't know how many don't actually "give up", because they have "got somewhere".

They've got their PPL, which is exactly what they set out to do, and next they're going to do climbing or diving or whatever's next on their list of things to achieve.

[scooter boy]

Interesting thread.

Why are so few women interested in flying?

Well, here is my theory...

Little girls (usually) like to play nicely with dolls.
Little boys (usually) like to dissect worms and take things to bits.

(Source: simple observation over 41 years. (NB there are exceptions.))

Add into this the dangerous, smelly, rotting (usually bitterly cold) + dirty environment that GA inhabits coupled with the prospect of being harrassed by oil stained anorakky aero-bores and most of the girls would rather be shopping. (So Scooter-girl tells me...)

Maybe they have a point?;)

SB

[looptheloop]

Having followed this thread I have to agree that many people's flying slows down due to the three Ps- running out of people to take, places to go or pennies to pay for it.
I spoke to a flight school owner once who had one wall covered in first solo shirt tails and the other wall held certificates marking the completion of a PPL. The difference was about 4:1. We spoke about the reasons why only a quarter of the people who go solo go on to complete their licence, money was one factor, workload was another with the demands of the studying putting some people off and for others it was simply that going solo was such an achievement they were happy with that. The cross country solo was another point where he shed customers as that was also considered a high point.

I wonder if a newly qualified PPL upon completion of the course and having their licence issued sometimes doesnt feel ready for the responsibility of going further afield and taking family up with them. I have seen clubs who offer advanced PPLs and also structured hour building where even though holding a PPL they get to do zone transits and long cross countrys with an instructor rather than being expected to find their own challenges with new and harder flights. These kinds of stepping stones give people a new challenge to aim for and a purpose to continue flying and importantly continue learning. I have watched people hour building for their CPL doing the same short hop 50 times, no real challenge and i wonder what thrill they get from flying that way and how long they will remain motivated.

My passion for flight is similar to shaggy sheep's, it's how flying makes you feel. i dont own a house or a car as i sold them to follow my dream of flying but soon i will own a share in a chipmunk and i feel like i finally have my priorites right! I have given up trying to justify giving up a well paid job and security to follow my dream, most of you on here will understand it completely and if you have to explain to someone how it feels to fly they may will never 'get it'. One of my biggest thrills in flying was when i landed after taking my best friend up for an open cockpit flight in a 1929 Travelair 4000 and she burst into tears from the sheer exhilaration and said 'now i understand why you do it'.

I only have 300 hours in my log book but it includes the Travelair a Yak 52, Chipmunk, Percival Prentice, Tiger Moths a Beech 18 and Pitts. I have tailwheel and aeros experience, microlights and gliders and don't think i will ever get over the thrill of being in the air. I have worked alongside Integrated ATPL students who are so focused on the left hand seat of an Airbus that they have never experienced the thrill of a loop or roll or have realised what the 'footrests' are for. Royal Kuwait sponsored students upon the completion of their ATPL studies are required to complete a short aerobatics course- imagine if this was compulsory for all newly licensed commercial pilots! Maybe then the BAeA wouldn't be wondering how to attract new blood into the sport.

The trouble as i see it, having flown in the states which seems far more forgiving and welcoming, is that low houred pilots over here are scared of CAS issues and that limits what they do, sticking to what is considered safe/familiar and local which soon becomes dull. The spare seats thread on here is a great way to help find a flying buddy who can help stretch your skills and imagination gently.
Secondly and its this position i find myself in, i long to instruct, to stay at the grass roots of GA, i want to give something back and to encourage others the way i was but if i ever want to afford a house and car again and not sleep in the hanger with the Chipmunk i may need to move into a different part of aviation- something that pays more. That, combined with instructors who are instructing as a stepping stone, is damaging GA, the affordability of becoming and remaining a career instructor is hard to justify and people have to move away from it, reluctantly.

And before i crawl back into my cardboard box, could we please stop saying there are no interesting women in aviation? :rolleyes: I have a whole collection of books ranging from Amelia Earheart and Amy Johnson to Polly Vascher that will prove there always have been interesting women in aviation. I am even contemplating starting up an Old Girls Network. ;)

Keep enjoying the thrill, and may your Log Book become a Love Story.
Looptheloop.

[Mark1234]

I'm afraid I find this thread depressing, and I'm perfectly happy with my flying, after a few years in gliders and a recently minted PPL! Apparently I'm going to be fed up of it all in 2-3 years time :(

But then that's the nature of internet forums - always contentious and opinionated one way or another, rarely balanced. Maybe I'll just see how it goes :) Fortunately i'm (temporarily?) in Aus, the rates are cheaper, my PPL cost less 'cos I could count gliding hours unlike at home (UK), the weathers ok (not as good as you might think.. but).

For my part I've finished up playing with spamcans precisely because of the waste-of-time factor in gliding, and to go places. For pure flying, the glider is still my preference, but powered offers me better value for *time*.

I also snowboard, windsurf, sail, and a few other things, very few of which have many female participants. Based on past girlfriends, I'm inclined to think that girls are (in general) more inclined towards having a go at many different things, and less likely to be goal oriented excel-at-something type personalities. Let's face it, getting (even) a PPL requires tenacity.. If you want to meet girls, take up dancing (not kididng!) Got bullied into trying it several years ago and haven't looked back ;)

And I'm not sure I'd be too happy about a cross-chanel checkride either. But I'd want some help with the planning; My personal approach is to have a notebook prepped with a script for the flight (and the odd contingency) - expect to be on this frequency here, talk to this person for that and so on.

Lastly, on the cats: I suggest napalm - where cats are concerned, overkill is never enough :E

[IO540]

I think scooter boy has it exactly right about girls in general :) It is also a genetic male thing to get focused intensely on one thing.

They've got their PPL, which is exactly what they set out to do, and next they're going to do climbing or diving or whatever's next on their list of things to achieve.

Yes but I am certain many expected the PPL would be more useful. As it stands, most new pilots find it utterly daunting to use it for real.

This can be addressed by mentoring (by experienced PPLs) but this raises difficult airfield-political issues because all the time the school "thinks" th student has any money left they regard him as "theirs" and want him to spend his money with *them* and not (perhaps) contributing to somebody's PPL cost sharing scheme :)

One could avoid that situation by structuring the training to be mostly real flying, rather than the circuit bashing which most students really hate and which just gets you sweating like a pig due to the stress, but the result would be a much more expensive PPL.

I know a few owner/pilots who did their FAA IR by "renting" an instructor and flying with him around Europe, airways, with him being legal PIC obviously, and after a few months of this you have done all you need to know AND enjoyed it all.

Some work is being done in the USA in a similar vein, where the student is taken through an integrated "ab initio PPL/IR" course using entirely scenario-based (i.e. real flying) training, in something like 50-60 hours only total time, and the results are reportedly excellent. This doesn't suprise me at all because IMHO most of the intense stuff (like flying circuits while doing the radio) doesn't really sink in because the student is totally stressed out and overloaded. One needs enroute sections to settle down and absorb the stuff.

I'm afraid I find this thread depressing, and I'm perfectly happy with my flying, after a few years in gliders and a recently minted PPL! Apparently I'm going to be fed up of it all in 2-3 years time

Only if you limit yourself to burger runs and sightseeing :)

[Whirlybird]

I'm inclined to think that girls are (in general) more inclined towards having a go at many different things, and less likely to be goal oriented excel-at-something type personalities.

That's probably about right in general. I'm an exception...or maybe I'm not! I just like to have a go at lots of differnt things AND keep going and excel at all of them. :) Could be why I (a) usually fail at really excelling, and (b) am invariably broke and have no time. :(

could we please stop saying there are no interesting women in aviation?

Very few people are actually saying that. Those who do mean....that there aren't many under 25 year old dolly-birds in aviation!! :) There aren't. There aren't too many of their male equivalents either. But there are less of ANY types of women in aviation, because only 6% of PPLs are female, and 2-3% of commercial pilots. Those figures are virtually the same over the most of the world, and have been the same for years and years. Why? That's a topic for a whole new thread. :confused:

Over the Christmas break I met up with a friend, a PPL who used to fly. He's given up! I asked him why. He said that he had always intended to give up at some point!!! It was something he wanted to learn how to do, but having got his PPL, it was too expensive and time-consuming, and required too much effort to be something he wanted to do on his time off. He also, interestingly, said he'd be happy to cost-share with me at any time and come as a passenger; he liked the idea of getting airborne without the work and responsibility.

Anecdotal I know, but there you have one possible reason. On a weekend, after a hard week, you can step outside for a walk, leap in the car and go for a spin, head out to the shops with no plan, get in your sailing dinghy and mess about, get on your horse and head for the hills. But you can't ever go flying without lots of preparation. Which means all of us - even IO540 - are to some extent....anoraks. :(:)

[IO540]

Very true.

A couple of things:

A large % of PPLs are set to give up no matter what. Nearly all the teenagers who got £6k for xmas to do a PPL will give up. Everybody who can't afford it will by definition give up - even if they somehow scrape together the training costs. On top of that you have "change of circumstances" people. I reckon 50% of new PPLs are certain to give up. The attrition rate is also very high in the USA, where there is much more utility. A lot of people just treat the PPL as a personal challenge, like climbing a mountain, running a marathon, getting laid, joining the mile high club :)

The challenge, if anybody cares, is what to do about the other 40% or so who don't necessarily have to give up. If you could reduce the dropout rate from 90% to 80%, which can't be that hard, the # of people flying would double. Think what that would do for GA business as a whole!

The preflight process can be made much more streamlined. When I fly from the UK to say Greece, do you think I spread out the charts all over the floor and draw lines on them, and working out the wind corrected headings and leg times? I used to do the "charts on the floor bit" when I used to fly VFR only, but even that can be done electronically (Jepp Flitestar with raster charts) without ever buying paper charts. The modern pilot will hit the internet for weather, notams, flight plan filing, GAR form faxing, and use a lightweight laptop for route planning, and will print out enroute sections. I even do this for VFR flights - the paper CAA chart is never looked at. This stuff should be taught in the PPL as an essential operational skill.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

Anecdotal I know, but there you have one possible reason. On a weekend, after a hard week, you can step outside for a walk, leap in the car and go for a spin, head out to the shops with no plan, get in your sailing dinghy and mess about, get on your horse and head for the hills. But you can't ever go flying without lots of preparation. Which means all of us - even IO540 - are to some extent....anoraks.

I do that all the time in the Chippy! Most of the times I go flying I've only a vague idea of where I'm going - and that often changes as the flight progresses. The only 'descision' is where to exit the Liverpool zone. I might set off with the vague idea of a few gentle aeros over Shropshire then drop into Sleap for lunch, but go to a strip instead. There I might meet up with another bimbler who'll suggest a strip I've not been to before. Some days, I leave out the aeros (but never fly S&L for long!) and just go sightseeing at relatively low level, over the Peak or up the Lancashire coast to the Lakes. Just enjoying 'being in the air in a wonderful aeroplane'.

The only times I 'plan' are if I'm going to a fly-in (like maybe G-VFWE) when I draw the lines on the charts and put the waypoints into the Pilot 3.

Most of the time, I just 'bimble'. Some might say that's unadventurous, but I'd stronly disagree. There is a great deal of affordable enjoyment to be had from VFR bimbling - if you have the right aeroplane. :)

SSD

[Sedbergh]

As has been asked before in this thread, what are the comparable stats for dropouts from other hobbies? Skydiving & scuba diving both have pretty high turnover rates.
Most hobbies are started with loads of enthusiasm and wow factor (remember when you discovered sex?) and tend to become less exiting with time/familiarity unless variations can be found (I'd better be careful about the analogies with sex at this point!)
The compensating factor for the familiarity tends to be if a social life goes with the hobby (I can't see why anyone would play golf otherwise!). In this respect turning up at an airfield, grinding around the sky for an hour or so (often by yourself), landing and going off home without barely speaking to anyone is going to get pretty boring after a while - with high costs & bureaucratic hassle as further adverse factors.
So try to do something different with your flying - gliding, tailwheel, aeros, microlights - and join a club which has a social life as well as a cash register! :ok:

[Whirlybird]

SSD,

You're quite right. Good point about bimbling. Yes. If you're going on a long trip by foot, horse, boat or car you need to plan too.

IO540,

A lot of people just treat the PPL as a personal challenge, like climbing a mountain, running a marathon, getting laid, joining the mile high club

Except...I never yet heard of anyone who got laid and then decided to give it up! ;):)

Excuse the digression...back to aviation.

[IO540]

I never yet heard of anyone who got laid and then decided to give it up!

I've heard of some women who gave up but presumably it wasn't very good; maybe they were looking for some kind of emotional involvement thrown in for good measure. Never heard of a bloke having a problem like that though ;)

[S-Works]

Quote:
I never yet heard of anyone who got laid and then decided to give it up!
I've heard of some women who gave up but presumably it wasn't very good; maybe they were looking for some kind of emotional involvement thrown in for good measure. Never heard of a bloke having a problem like that though

Spat my coffee at that one.... :O I did not realise you knew my ex wife.......

[PompeyPaul]

Given we're all still active in GA and haven't given up we're probably the least qualified to discuss why people give up GA. Those that are qualified are doubtlessly, not reading this forum anymore.

[IO540]

Very true. I have however spoken to a few who gave up more or less immediately and they tended to say they did not have the confidence to fly for real.

I am certain that for epople who give up very early this is a major factor. The PPL training process is pretty poor in this respect.

For those who give up after say a few years, it can be anything.

[gasax]

I was first footing a friend yesterday. He was a keen micro lighter who gave up about 5 years ago.

We chatted about flying and things - he was impressed by the number and capability of the newer 450kg machines, almost got enthusiastic. But then he asked whether the rules had got any easier, whether the club politics had calmed down, whether hangarage was any easier, who much more expensive it might be than it was. Of course I answered negative to all but the last

That all pretty much validated his decision he thought.

The majority of PPLs fly simple machines (even if they are spamcan - they are still simple compared with anything else they own!). And yet we are bound up in a mess of legislation and complexity. The comparison with sailing or shooting or motor sport is always going to show flying as being hopelessly out of touch with any realistic assessment of the relative risks. The rules lack any real logic in some many cases - and then clubs pile in with their own.

An aeroplane shall not fly etc... sets the scene pretty well.

I still love it, I'm still committed to it (must be after 20 odd years) but even I wonder sometimes - make be lord of all for a couple of days - I could sweep the vast majority of it away.........

[MichaelJP59]

Personally, I'm having an enforced break from flying for a few months - divorce is pending. The upside is once it goes through I won't have anyone questioning my finances, but I have been seriously thinking what I will do next.

Plan is to not rent anymore (apart from essential training), and am going to get a PFA type, prefererably with both (limited) aerobatic and touring capability, and fly from smaller strips.

[FullyFlapped]

Whirly :

like climbing a mountain, running a marathon, getting laid, joining the mile high club
Ah, a steady 5280' (with A/P, possibly oscillating +/- 50' non A/P :O), marvellous ... allegedly, of course ! ;)

Wonder how long it'll be before the EASA/Part-M/SubPart257/CAMO/LAMP/AllwaysWearACondom/NPA/Schedule422.12 Working subgroup gets around to legislating for that one ? I can see it now :-

"No aircraft shall be flown at a steady altitude of 5280 feet unless the pilot shall hold at least a EASA CPL (Commercially Proven Lover) licence with added IR (Instrument Rooting) and have successfully completed the MCC (Mates Condom Corporation) cockpit management course " ...

FF :ok:

[Ivor_Novello]

Underneath all this, the PPL training sausage machine grinds away happily, churning out some 3000 new PPLs every year, most of which never get anywhere.

Well I have been teaching guitar to about 120 people per week in the past 5 years and NONE have become professional musicians, but they still did it to enjoy it and (hopefully) still do.

Just because we don't all go on to become airline captains, aerobatic skygods or owners of a high performance state of the art flying machine, one should not be denied the sheer pleasure of learning to fly.

I still think the struggle and the progress through difficulties is the most exciting part of the PPL and perhaps the reason why a lot of people do it.
Going from zero to PPL in my opinion is a bigger cultural shock and steeper learning curve than going, say, from PPL to CPL or instructing.

The difficulties and adventures along the journey are not just part of the journey, but they are THE journey itself.

Ivor

[IO540]

Love it, FF :) :)

I still think the struggle and the progress through difficulties is the most exciting part of the PPL and perhaps the reason why a lot of people do it.
Going from zero to PPL in my opinion is a bigger cultural shock and steeper learning curve than going, say, from PPL to CPL or instructing.

Hmmm, not entirely sure. I love flying and (for as long as I can rub two pennies together) will never give it up, but I found the PPL training the most frustrating and unpleasant thing I have ever done in my life. The crap planes, a fair % of really lousy instructors, banging circuit after circuit, patronising anti-modern-anything attitudes, and the great majority of booked lessons being cancelled, usually due to weather but often due to dis-organisation.

After one has a few hundred hours and been an owner for a bit, one can spot the good and bad "deals" from a mile away. I walked out of one CPL training outfit in double quick time, and from several IR deals.

The US IR was organised, in Arizona, with military precision in comparison and was completed as planned to plus or minus one day.

I know exactly how one could make the PPL really enjoyable for most people but it would cost a lot more money.

Incidentally, my divorce is what made flying possible. My then wife would have never let me do it, well not without spending a similar amount of money on herself and anyway she would have resented me having all that "free time". I just consider myself among the fortunate few men who managed to pull off a divorce and still have any money left afterwards.

[i.dingbat]

I've just stayed up till 4am reading this thread. It's been great seeing some thoughtful, well-written posts and so many kindred spirits.

I feel lucky that I've learnt on new, well-maintained tailwheel aircraft, like this:
http://www.iainhosking.com/images/2006/05/20/downwind_1_20060520_t.jpg

that are simply fun to fly. Also, I'm in Australia, so weather's rarely a problem, there's heaps of uncontrolled airspace and the prices are cheaper.

Like others on this forum, I'm in the throes of a divorce, which at least means I have 100% control over what's left of my finances. In a year or two I'll probably have made the switch from buying a house and renting aircraft, to buying an aircraft and renting a house. There's a whole continent out there, and it looks great from the air. I'm no Francis Ford Coppola but here's a taste:

Landing a Citabria at Camden: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OPvOJY6GgfQ

Flying a 182 down the Sydney coastline to Wollongong for lunch (yes, that's a Constellation - there's a Catalina there too): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQ8-iFKeEGk

The same 182 to Cootamundra for a $400 pie: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6XjmZ-nWtbc

I'm having a whale of a time, and I still only have my GFPT. Getting my PPL is my New Year's resolution. Aerobatics next :E. I've been diving for the last 28 years (just taken it up after a 4-year gap as two of my sons have just qualified) and I hope to be flying (and diving) for the next 28.

Lastly, it was an excellent point that you rarely regret the things you do as much as the things you don't do.

So, keep flying, but if you must give up, make sure it's for something else you can be just as enthusiastic about!

:ok:

[Rod1]

This has been a very interesting read, but IO540 and I have very different perceptions of the cure. If we look at what the market is telling us.

The part of GA which is in trouble is IFR touring. Demand for IFR touring aircraft has dropped in the UK and Europe and prices have fallen dramatically.

The part of GA which is thriving is the light end. 12,000 brand new paramotors sold in 06 at around £3000 each.

What does this tell us? Price and hassle put people off. Far more people can afford and want to buy a £3000 toy with a few hours of training than £80k for a second hand IFR machine plus a full PPL plus an IR. Expand up a little and the more “formal” you get the more cost and hassle are involved. I do not think that mission capability mater to the fun flyer, but it is critical if you fly on Business.

Fortunately, EASA are assisting with a solution. The new recreational PPL will be more of a fun, back to basics approach and it will be possible to train on unlicensed strips. Strip flying, both “group A” and micros has boomed in the last ten years. This has been partly due to most micro training being done on strips, but also to the Group A pilots finding it is much less pain than being based on a more formal site. Ironically, most of the navigation used by the “strip flyers” is good old DR with GPS as a backup on the more sophisticated modern machines.

The strip I am based on has 20 aircraft. Two are C of A (a PA28R and a DR400) and the rest are permit, split between very old and modern. Most of the owners are flying 80 – 160 hours a year and the number of aircraft has grown steadily over the last ten years. In the same area several other sites have started up and there is a steady flow of kit from the licensed airfields to the low cost, low hassle strips. Operating out of a strip can be very quick and painless.

As training starts to be re focused on seat of the pants fun with lower costs and less hours of training we will get an increase in pilots and we will retain more as there will be far more camaraderie. The IFR side will however suffer, as there will be fewer and fewer VFR pilots based on airfields with full approach assistance to share the cost. This will probably push the cost of IFR flight even more. With regards to infringing CAS, remember there is a lot of the UK north of London which has quite simple airspace and it does not require a full panel and stress overload to avoid it.

Rod1

[Sedbergh]

EASA assist? Don't joke. Given the effort they've put into f***ing up a simple, cheap and functional system i.e. UK gliding - don't hold your breath waiting for simple cheap EASA power flying.:{

[denhamflyer]

Rod1 you make some interesting observations about the success of the smaller end of the market.

It is a completely different game at that end. The simplest comparison I can make is the boating industry. There are thousands of "Water Sports" enthusiasts that rent/own small water craft from jet skis to small power boards. Mostly this can be transported easily and dont require marina facilities. They keep a whole load of people employed and it is a significant industry. However it is essentially completely separate from the Marina based craft that do most of the touring and the "Water Sports" craft do not contribute significantly to its a marina's upkeep. The larger boats fund this infrastructure. This is the analogy of GA. The "farm strip" Very Light Aircraft flying can survive without the key infrastructure of aerodromes and I wish it every success in this.

However unless we keep the equivalent business that marina's get for the aerodromes then slowly and surely the ability to fly and utilise larger aircraft will disappear. This is not just IFR flying but VFR with passengers. and more importantly could reduce the hangarage available for all aircraft especially the non-metal classic aircraft ( no I dont mean composites..) .

I think this would be a disaster for our country and for any of us who like to fly further afield.

Ironically I think we are about to enter a new age of flying with the advent of aircraft like the skycatcher with Glass panels and comfortable seats. I know lots of people who tried but did not continue because the the antiquated aircraft this industry has for training. I know our local flying school has placed orders already... I just hope it does not collapse before we can get more people into "proper" flying ;)

[IO540]

In a nutshell, the "PFA crowd" (I use that term very loosely here) think they can keep on flying while the rest of GA dies out, based as many of them are at tight and cosy farm strip communities.

They are probably right - in the short term.

Unfortunately, we are not likely ever again see a return to the old days (many years ago) when one could get a flying license at a farm strip, so if the mainstream side of GA dies, the farm strip scene will also die out as the participants disappear due to death, health, and all the other factors which make up the general attrition rate.

I never said that IFR touring is some sort of magic cure for GA. The PFA crowd on here likes to pretend that I am saying that but I never actually did. Going places just happens to be why *I* learnt to fly and that is fair enough, that's my business.

GA needs all the different departments to function. It needs the cheap end (represented here by Rod1), the very cheap end (lawn mowers strapped to one's back etc), and also the higher up stuff from piston tourers to private jets. It also needs a training scene.

It just happens that at the moment the sports side is seening rapid growth, fed by a large # of manufacturers in Europe churning out Rotax powered planes. In due time, this will reach saturation, just like established IFR GA reached saturation many years ago.

Europe has never been strong on private IFR - nothing like the USA. The utility is limited by a shortage of airfields with instrument approaches, and by the increasingly time consuming IR. I wouldn't say there is a decline in private IFR - if anything it is improving but thanks to aggressive newcomers like Cirrus the prices of IFR tourers have plummeted in recent years which (as with houses) is great news unless you are trying to exit the business altogether.

The training scene is a tricky one. The current UK one hangs together because the ATPL hour builders can build hours while getting paid peanuts, but this is possible only because the hours they log count towards their fATPL. If the logged time didn't count; if say most PPL training was towards some sub-ICAO license, then these cheap instructors would disappear and schools would have to employ proper instructors, which would increase the cost of training.

[Rod1]

“we are not likely ever again see a return to the old days (many years ago) when one could get a flying license at a farm strip”

The BMAA are doing the NPPL license at farm strips right now, and the EASA agreement to extend this to the new recreational license, up to 2000kg is 90% done.

“then these cheap instructors would disappear and schools would have to employ proper instructors, which would increase the cost of training.”

The situation for the schools will be much worse than this. The new proposals look like allowing PPL “enthusiast” instructors very similar to the system currently in use by the BGA. This will make training for recreational flying much less commercial and allow the professionals to concentrate on training ATPL’s.

None of the above is new; it is just being expanded to cover power flying in the 450kg-2000kg weight bracket. This is one of the positives to come out of EASA’s stated aim to use a lighter regulatory touch for recreational licensing. It is possible that the LAA – Light Aircraft Association (the PFA no longer exists) may be one of the national bodies looking after the system.

“However unless we keep the equivalent business that marina's get for the aerodromes then slowly and surely the ability to fly and utilise larger aircraft will disappear. This is not just IFR flying but VFR with passengers.”

That is an interesting analogy, but it has one flaw. It is entirely possible to fly aircraft like the PA28R out of strips. There is one based on the strip with me. In time the smaller licensed airfields will probably abandon paying huge money to the CAA and become unlicensed. This will have zero impact on the VFR side of flying, apart from reducing the costs, but it will, unfortunately, be a problem for IFR.

Rod1

[S-Works]

So does this prove that we don't need an IMCR then? It never ceases me the circular arguments that appear on here with one contradicting the other.

If we are all moving towards the VFR day ships from private strips there is clearly no need for IFR and so the loss of the IMCR is not going to be felt?

Personally I think that the view that aviation will end up on private strips is very blinkered and a little self serving.

[Contacttower]

So does this prove that we don't need an IMCR then? It never ceases me the circular arguments that appear on here with one contradicting the other.



Well everyone has their own view of what GA should be, broadly speaking the people posting about how the 'glorious past' of aviating is being lost and that we should fly PFA types out of farmstrips (one would be forgiven for thinking that is all we will be able to afford soon) are not the same people who are worried about the loss of the IMC rating. Certainly I always feel for another 'branch' of GA when it looks threatened, but it's not quite the same when it doesn't directly effect you.

In the same vain different people have different reasons for starting flying and giving up...cheaper, more exciting planes are obviously part of the solution (someone feel like designing a Tiger Moth II perhaps?) but for different reasons and different people a more accessible IR would be a solution for them as well. The two are not necessarily contradictory, they just represent different views on what aviation means to people.

[denhamflyer]

That is an interesting analogy, but it has one flaw. It is entirely possible to fly aircraft like the PA28R out of strips. There is one based on the strip with me. In time the smaller licensed airfields will probably abandon paying huge money to the CAA and become unlicensed. This will have zero impact on the VFR side of flying, apart from reducing the costs, but it will, unfortunately, be a problem for IFR

You are correct a number of capable aircraft CAN operate from small strips (I have a C182 and have used small-ish strips). But the latest generation of tourers struggle with shorter strips and grass (Cirrus, Diamond, Columbia/Cessna). I would be nervous on small strip on wet days when it had been raining for some while. In fact we had a number of stuck Cirri (and others) at Denham last year... they now keep well clear of the un-reinforced areas when wet.

Whilst I agree there is some overlap I know lots of pilots (and passengers) that are very wary of grass strips and as we are on the subject of increasing flying numbers...

I am sure the new rules will help a lot of un-licensed fields but to me I find it very worrying that we are creating an even stronger seperation between "recreational flying" and "private flying" and "commercial flying". Have you tried southern spain recently - VFR is all but banned most of the week. I can see that getting stronger when lots of "even less qualified" pilots start turning up, and can see the middle ground airfields going bust once they loose training to cheaper airfields and loose the commercial hour builders.

We are in danger of creating a great void between (recreational flying) and commercial (ATPL only) flying. Continuing my analogy this leaves us with trailer launching and shipping ports - all of the marina's going bust or diminishing to such a small number their utility disappears.

This "utility" is important as it is the significant funding that comes with it that is needed. I agree IFR is more affected - but I would like to think that an enlightened EASA will start to allow GPS approaches with A/G or AFIS at small airfields all over Europe - thus keeping IFR 2nd class (IMCR) more away from Air Transport IFR commercial traffic. ( I can but dream :zzz: )

Create a serious utility - for business and holiday touring then more wealth will appear and help prop the infrastructure up. I witnessed many a marina transition from a run down operation with all low value vessels to thriving social scene with a great mix of high and lower value vessels. In principle given some foresight I can see the newer generation of planes being used in this way.


PS. I am not being a snob about value - but on the whole the spend an airfield and surrounding area can expect is somewhat proportionate to the quality of the aircraft.

[Rod1]

“I am not being a snob about value - but on the whole the spend an airfield and surrounding area can expect is somewhat proportionate to the quality of the aircraft.”

I guess it depends how you define quality. A selection of almost new composite 912 powered super ships in immaculate condition parked with a selection of lovingly cared for vintage machines housed in modern buildings against a ratty old fleet of tiered spam cans worth a lot less but costing a fortune in maintenance and fuel, parked in WW2 hangers with rust falling from the roof. One bit of GA is in crisis, guess which bit…

Bose, you fly IFR from a strip. If the CAA allowed IFR GPS approaches to strips how much would that help you? Or have you already got your solution programmed in, just for “practice”. I am not knocking IFR flight, I just think my guess on the direction UK GA is going is more at the fun-flying end. If technology can cope with a lack of approach aids on the airfield then IFR will continue. There is no need for the number of landing places to decrease, it has increased over the last 10 years and just because some airfields become unlicensed does not mean the runways shrink.

Rod1

[denhamflyer]

I guess it depends how you define quality. A selection of almost new composite 912 powered super ships in immaculate condition parked with a selection of lovingly cared for vintage machines housed in modern buildings against a ratty old fleet of tiered spam cans worth a lot less but costing a fortune in maintenance and fuel, parked in WW2 hangers with rust falling from the roof. One bit of GA is in crisis, guess which bit…

Totally agree - thats why I used the word (shame they cant take my weight)! I just want the same to happen to the other parts of GA ( I actually believe we are on the verge of this happening < 10yrs - if it all doesnt go pear shaped in between )

[gasax]

I think that the 'marina' model is somewhat time limited.

I moved away from it with my flying over 15 years ago. With my boating however I'm still involved with it. Why?

Boating wise in the North ar least, the costs and complications are still affordable and not inconveninet. Compare and contrast versus the majority of GA fields - fences, security, hangarage at astronomic rates - and that is before you try and run a C of A machine under the highly regarded and much awaited PArt M.........................

My permit aircraft have lived on strips and I've toured much of Europe VFR - at pretty modest cost. Could I have done it 'properly' in an IFR machine - not if I'd worked for wages - the costs are literally an order of magnitude larger - is the satisfaction thast mcuh greater? Nope!

I largely fly strip to strip - unless overseas. And that is the key - in the UK GA is about high costs and difficulties - that is why so many people like me have effectively opted out. I do what I want to and live with the overspill of rules which thankfully do not hurt me too much but which really hurt the 'marina' market.

In 10 years time I have no expectation of being able to fly into any UK large regional airfields. But it will not have any real effect. In France none of this will occur and I'll continue to fly into their regional fields. Here at home I'll find strips to replace the over blown and high cost 'International' airports.

Will I support any of the marina stuff - nope. The fragmentation of GA in the UK has largely lead to the divide and rule approach - with us whimps leaving first. If you want to hang on and fight - best of luck, but there are financial interests which make success highly unlikely.

And you do not help your own interests with the them and us stuff. If we're bimblers or puddlejumpers fine - but that is not my view. We are well clear of the ATPL types and the PPL sausage machine. I much enjoy my biennial with an instructor who has never seen the far side of the hills, flown taildraggers, landed on a strip etc etc.

Do you have any convincing arguments to why GA flying should be 'subsidised' by regional airfields? I can think of none and I doubt you can either! This sort of flying simply complicates a simpe business of processing passengers - given the 'quality' of most airfield managements you can see why GA is unwelcome.

IFR touring in expensive, lead burning, thirsty and expensive machinery? I'd suggest most things have a brighter future.

[denhamflyer]

The marina comparison is exactly that, a comparison not an exact replication.

But since you raise the issue of cost one example I can give is my own marina down south - got more and more expensive. Did it empty - NO it got fuller with more expensive vessels and raised even more money. Is this right? - probably not. But cost is not the end of it. The cost needs to be appropriate the to perceived benefit. The whole thriving boating scene on the south coast makes piston planes seem very cheap. The ford fiesta end of the market will always be price driven but there are other cars that generate lots of revenue. The problem is that when you buy a nice car you dont want to keep it in a crap place.

I am not the one creating the "them and us" - I am worried that it is happening - but it appears many in the LAA land seem to want to dis-associate and let it all die. This is a shame as many of the landing sites around the uk cannot survive on a pittance and would surely loose out the "brown field" development pressure.

In 10 years time I have no expectation of being able to fly into any UK large regional airfields. But it will not have any real effect. In France none of this will occur and I'll continue to fly into their regional fields. Here at home I'll find strips to replace the over blown and high cost 'International' airports.

What makes you think that. In a unified EASA world all the rules will be the same - controlled French airspace would operate the same rules as the UK - so either both open or both closed. I suspect the later to the LAPL non IFR tourers. Spain is already becoming harder for the VFR flyer. Sure many smaller airfields will continue outside of this , but many important stop off points may become in-accessible. Not good for any of us.

I can see why flying has such a difficult time representing itself - it is so fragmented. Pity we don't have and RYA equivalent fighting on all fronts. Perhaps if the associations worked to together then perhaps we might get somewhere.

IFR touring in expensive, lead burning, thirsty and expensive machinery? I'd suggest most things have a brighter future.

Compared to what? - with 4 up mine competes well with my car, and is massively less that the Motor Yachts successfully touring the south coast. Been there got the tee-shirt - flying with friends is much cheaper :p

I am all for light aircraft aswell and would love more and more landing sites, but letting the core infrastructure die will ultimately affect any touring/utility capability. Remember our regional airports have grown from existing infrastructure - imagine if that had already died - 10 lane motorways :sad: loss of employment etc.etc.

Do you really want all the mid sized airfields to close?

[S-Works]

I can see why flying has such a difficult time representing itself - it is so fragmented. Pity we don't have and RYA equivalent fighting on all fronts. Perhaps if the associations worked to together then perhaps we might get somewhere.

Because we have so many organisations serving there own needs. Then there are the people who don't like the way someone else does it and go off and start there own campaign. This is the mentality of aviation. Rather than accept that representatives are not perfect, just run them down and tell everyone why you won't join and then go and start your own campaign, then just sit and bicker with everyone else.

I have been an RYA member for 25 years as well as an Instructor etc, and I know few people who are not members and a I know many who complain about what the RYA do but still retain membership as they are pragmatic enough to understand there is no such thing as a magic carpet.

GA in terms of us as light aircraft flyers (rather than the bizav) has had the death knell sounding for a long time. It will tear itself apart saving the Eurocrats the job. You only have to look at the forums to see this.

To be honest I think I am done now, I have nothing to lose ratings wise and am prepared to meet the rules as the come along (been Mode S for a long time etc.) and see where it goes from there. I will leave the rest to destroy from within.

Have fun!

[Rod1]

“but it appears many in the LAA land seem to want to dis-associate and let it all die.”

I do not think this is really the case. The LAA want less regulation, less cost and to get more pilots into the sport. I do not think the LAA want the IFR end to die, or would encourage this to happen as a deliberate policy. We see growth in real recreational flying for fun. We have the advantage of much lower cost for the same or better capability for VFR flight. In time we may get IFR, but that is another story. The PFA has renamed itself to the Light Aircraft Association in an attempt to appeal to the majority of the GA community.

The strips are not “no go arrears” for C of A aircraft. I fly from 600m of well drained grass; this is soon to be extended to 725m. The runway is longer, wider and better drained than two of the near by licensed airfields. The point I was trying to make is that with strips growing in number every year there are more places to land, not less. Popom is not licensed, but it is a thriving aviation community where C of C aircraft fly alongside permit and micro types. I see licensed airfields becoming more Popom like, not closing down.

The other advantage of strips keeping pilots flying is convenience. Because there are so many around you will probably find one much closer to home than you local licensed airfield. I am now 13 miles from my aircraft (by car), I was 47. As the strip has no restrictions I can fly in the summer until quite late and this will more than make up for loosing some time in the winter.

“In a unified EASA world all the rules will be the same - controlled French airspace would operate the same rules as the UK”

I hope that was a joke. I do a huge amount of business in Europe. The French may sign up to the same rules as us but we implement them to the letter and the French ignore the ones they do not like. GA in French regional airports will survive far longer than in the UK.

“Do you really want all the mid sized airfields to close?”

I am not sure what a mid size airfield is. If you mean a regional airport, then they are doing very well, but are going to kick GA out, which is a big threat for PPL IR as 24 hour operation with full approach aids is what is really required if you have to fly. If you mean the small club airfields, then I hope these will adapt and continue.

Rod1

[Fuji Abound]

Quote:
Because we have so many organisations serving there own needs. Then there are the people who don't like the way someone else does it and go off and start there own campaign. This is the mentality of aviation. Rather than accept that representatives are not perfect, just run them down and tell everyone why you won't join and then go and start your own campaign, then just sit and bicker with everyone else.

Well that is obviously directed at me.

Let me give you what I intend to be a constructive reply.

In my opinion you have chosen a very good example in the RYA.

I agree there is pretty wide consensus that they do a good job.

They are active in every aspect of boating from dingy clubs, to the training schools, to offshore power boating, to wind surfers as much to the guy who wants to sit on his yacht in a marina somewhere drinking G and Ts. In fact their web site goes over board to inform you that they are the UK's national organisation representing the interests of everyone who goes voting for pleasure.

Their web site is modern and full of useful information. The message clearly comes across they are concerned with legislative restrictions being imposed on their members. For example “campaigns and lobbying” is at the very top of their web site. They tell us:

“The RYA campaigns on an enormous variety of issues that affect boaters. Our expert staff work to represent members’ views and interests at local, regional, national, European and global level. They do so to keep our watersports and pastimes free of costly bureaucracy and unwarranted interference. Thanks to their knowledge, experience and enthusiasm, as well as the support and backing of our 100,000-plus membership, boating in Britain, uniquely in Europe, remains free from major legislation and open for all to enjoy.”

Whether it is just words or not the immediate impression is of an organisation that is trying to represent everyone and inform everyone of the good working they are doing.

The aviation representative bodies are fragmented. I don’t know how this came about, although one frequently reads that they are not prepared to work together. Unfortunately, if that is so, it is to their detriment. The funding of each diminishes, they have to compete to attract membership and they become less effective because they are each no longer perceived to be representative. It is up to them to work together - no one else is going to do it for them.

The problem with your stance set out above is that unless a point comes at which people feel the job they are doing is inadequate then things will only get worse, not better.

Each of the representative bodies will tell you they need more money, they need more volunteers, they need more professional time and each is right. Unfortuntaly that is the result of their decline not the symptom. Treat the symptom and you will cure the disease.

Work together, pool your existing resources, volunteers, professional contributors and you will be perceived as all having a common goal together with resources to present a persuasive shop front to your members.


So to sum up on the single issue of the IMC rating I felt that the various representative bodies were not doing enough to educate everyone what we were / are about to lose and what we might try and do about it. That was my assessment, rightly or wrongly. I decided that I would try and do something about this single issue.

I would have loved one of the representative bodies to have got in contact and ask “can we work together on this” or “can we take over this campaign” or something along those lines. In reality the calls have come from everyone but.

Some of the remarks made by some have come over as increasingly bitter. I frankly have no idea why this should be so. However, it is not something I want to be involved with any further. I shall do my very best with this campaign. As much as I have enjoyed and learnt from this forum over the years I now chose to not contribute further (other than on this one issue) and once the campaign is over, that will be my lot.

[S-Works]

I now chose to not contribute further (other than on this one issue) and once the campaign is over, that will be my lot.

I look forward to quoting you on that in Fuji style when something pops up that you can't resist....

I was aiming nothing at you, I was giving a general opinion of the situation. But the fact is in my opinion all you have done is further fragment the situation with no clear direction on resolution. I have tried to stir up a bit of debate to create a non emotive response about why the IMCR should stay. The original AOPA submission was clear and non emotive. This was obviously not good enough hence starting another campaign so I am just interested to hear the alternative views. A lot of effort has been put into telling us what others have done wrong, but nothing into how you are going to do it right.

The RYA is well funded, none of the GA organizations are and non of them are prepared to give up there place at the table and merge. This goes equally for AOPA. When we have a single AVIATION body we will have a unified voice and monetary power. But the fact is GA will be long gone before everyone wakes up and smells the coffee.

We are never going to agree no matter how much you try and brow beat me because I think your approach and argument are flawed. To much time spent on self congratulation of how you managed to get 1,000/40,000 (including the fakes) to sign a petition that just states the IMCR must be saved but not how or why.

Others like myself have tried to play devils advocate with counter arguments that are exactly the same as have already been heard from EASA or that we believe you will hear. Some of us have more experience at the committee table on these matters and know how it works. It is not he who shouts loudest but he who can make a balanced and sensible argument.

So far I have seen none of this in the counter arguments.

I however am still prepared to stand and listen to them when they are formulated without resort to personal attacks.

THIS IS NOT A PERSONAL ATTACK ON YOU FUJI IT IS A VIEW ON THE GENERAL SITUATION. Try and resist a personal response.

[Fuji Abound]

THIS IS NOT A PERSONAL ATTACK ON YOU FUJI IT IS A VIEW ON THE GENERAL SITUATION. Try and resist a personal response.

Fair enough. I am very happy to take it in that spirit.

When we have a single AVIATION body we will have a unified voice and monetary power. But the fact is GA will be long gone before everyone wakes up and smells the coffee.

I hope you are wrong, as I am sure you do as well, but on this we agree.

It is not he who shouts loudest but he who can make a balanced and sensible argument.

This may be where we fundamentally disagree.

The representative bodies were hopefully always going to present reasoned arguments. That is excellent work on their part and if AOPA are the prime movers I take my hat off to them. You may recall that you were good enough to set out for us all AOPAs stance on this issue which was the first time I had read that "document".

However I think I have explained that I felt there was a wide misunderstanding about how important an issue this was. Whilst I know you took it as an "attack" on some of the representative bodies it was intended as valid crticism that if you do not tell people in a very public way what is going on you cant expect them to be aware, or do anything about it. I am certainly guilty of falling into that category. Until you or Rustle said something like - "you have been warned, and arent doing anything abou it - did it dawn on me what we were about to lose". I cant remember whether it was you or someone else who disagreed and commented that it was up to us to stay abreast of proposed changes in legislation. Whilst that may well be so, I doubt many people have the time or inclination.

If the campaign has done nothing more than bring this matter to the forefront of everyones attention, enabled the issues to be widely discussed and reflected the strength of feeling then I beleive it has achieved something. The fact that many more people I believe will now write to their Euro MPs forms part of the representative process. I could be completely wrong and I bow to your greater knowledge but never the less if I were a Euro MP and received a 1,000 letters I think I might sit up and take note.

I am sorry if any of it has appeared self congratulatory. That has never been my purpose. In fact I am not sure how you can use a forum such as this to be self congratulatory if most people dont know who you are. Sometimes that may be a bad thing but I have absolutely no interest in personally putting myself forward, but I do believe reminding us all that we are really gaining a load of support is very much part of the campaigning process and very much part of imparting that this issue is important and we each need to get involved with it.

Yeah, I know I have taken on board your warning, and it is well made. I am just in the process of buying a new aircraft and I want to spend more time flying than I am currently managing and plan on doing as much touring as I can. However, times move on, so if I do fall into that trap please remind me and I will put in a quick tack and head over the horizon again. These forums seem to have changed over the years as well, or perhaps I have, so there it is.

[gasax]

Compare and contrast my boat and my plane.

I can walk into a well equipped, pleasant and helpful marina. I need no licence, no certified maintenance, no radio. I cast off and the world is my oyster. If the government comes up with daft legislation - such as the drinking / sailing stuff I have an organisation which actually has a good chance of making them see sense.

At my strip its not quite so good. The facilities are pretty limited, I have a bunch of rules about my licence and currency. I'm on a permit so the maintenance is affordable and can be done with a high degree of flexibility - places, people, costs. The LAA will try (and in association with the rest of the alphabet soup) may succeed in delaying things but nothing much more.

If I go to my local regional airfield in my old C of A machine? Couple of hundred a month to park, £12.50 per landing for resident machines, maintenance at a limited number of places at high costs. 'Security' which means taking apassenger is a near nightmare experience. And all this is getting more difficult because Part M, CAMOs, Part 66 etc. Plus if I go to another regional airfield I have a whole new nightmare to work my way through - whilst paying £1.30 or more per litre for the pleasure. I might be represented by AOPA who will tell me what a great job they're doing whilst not talking to all the others (but that is another thread entirely!!!)

If the latter scenario has a real future I cannot see it.

Will EASA make everything the same - absolutely not. The EU directive gold plating is a UK phenomena, look at the comparison between the DGAC and CAA over Mode S....

The third scenario means I'll never go back to a C of A machine whilst the present arrangements exist.

I hope that the LAA, BGA, BMAA in accord with the EU organisations will end up with a sensible training, currency, recreational pilots licence pilots licence and aircraft rules for European LSA aircraft which might work all across the EU. That might offer scenario 2 a real future.

Would even that stop the high dropout rate? Probably not but I suspect it would reduce it somewhat. Like it or not costs and aggravation do have a real effect - look at the comparative demographies of microlight versus traditional flying clubs.

[gpn01]

<quote>
Would even that stop the high dropout rate? Probably not but I suspect it would reduce it somewhat. Like it or not costs and aggravation do have a real effect - look at the comparative demographies of microlight versus traditional flying clubs.
</quote>

Isn't bringing them all into line (in terms of cost and legislation) the purpose of EASA/CAA ?
Then all aspects of aviation will be equally expensive and difficult to pursue! :-(

Looking at the main topic though, additional factors to consider regarding the dropout rates:

Cost - keeping a PPL soon adds up, particularly if you want to keep progressing
Rationale - Many people take up flying just to go solo and gain a licence....and once they've achieved it where do the go next ? There's several threads in this forum on "where can I go, what can I do". At leaast in gliding (like the scouts) ther's badges to gain and competitions to fly in
Career - Many people take up GA as a path towards becoming a professional plane driver
Changing priorities - family, job, etc. gets in the way
Weather - UK weather doesn't lend itself to 365 day flying does it ?

It would defintiely be interesting to know what the two areas of GA that are growing (microlighting and helicopters) are doing differently.

[TheOddOne]

bose-x and Fuji Abound et al,

Please let me try and put forward a couple of positive arguments in favour of the retention of the IMCr.

I am an instructor. A part of the PPL syllabus (Ex 19) currently requires us to teach students how to handle unexpected bad weather by maintaining altitude, initially maintaining Straight and Level on instruments, then promptly executing a 180 turn back into VMC. A minimum of 1 hour is presently required to be flown at this task. I need a suitable qualification in addition to the work done during the Instructor course to enable me to a) teach this exercise and b) continue a safe flight whilst doing so. Whilst the initial stages of the instruction can be carried out in VMC under a hood or foggles, we are encouraged to get the student to fly into IMC to teach them how difficult it is in real conditions (just into the base of teh cloud layer, where it's nice and bumpy is ideal). The IMCr is fit for this purpose.

As one or two others have also said (BEagle etc) occasionally an instructor might choose to momentarily fly below VMC minima for other purposes. Again, the IMCr is fit for this purpose, also.

In all my 25 years of flyig, what I've NEVER needed and DON'T want is a rating that will permit me to fly IFR in Class A airspace. My personal limits for advanced planning for an approach are around about what would be legal for a non-rated pilot anyway, though I do try and practice when I can down to mimima when I've a safety pilot with me, just in case. Occasionally, when touring, I might encounter wx which will force me down below MSA to maintain VMC. Then I choose to maintain altitude/climb to a better FL and fly IMC, outside CAS but with suitable RADAR cover. I build such a contingency into the flight plan. The IMCr is fit for this purpose, too.

The JAA-IR and the FAA-IR are FAR in excess of what I need to safely accomplish all of the above.

There, I hope this is positive stuff and an encouragement to those who have stuck their heads above the parapet, well done for doing that; you'll always get stuff thrown at you!

I also sit on committees/councils representing sporting aviation. I do try and be careful to only express views that a) represent those of my Association who have sent me along and b) are relevant to my sport. There never can be a 'one-stop shop' that will accurately reflect everyone's needs and aspirations because they are all different and sometimes mutually exclusive. You can't blame those who put the time and effort into going to Cologne and putting the case for their sport; they do try an make a general representation for other groups, too. The GA Alliance is a fair attempt to unify disparate groups but is inevitably slanted towards the day-VFR market, considering where the majority of its support lies.

I also support AOPA, I'm a member twice! Once for myself and our little Group is also a corporate member. I'm afraid I do find that their 'house' attitude does seem to be 'glass half empty' rather than 'half full', more 'I told you so' than 'can-do'. However, they are very hard-working, when you read M's diary in the mag he's very active on our behalf.

TheOddOne

[S-Works]

Oddone, A valid and lucid argument. Advocate mode.... What do they do in Europe to meet the same requirements?

[TheOddOne]

Advocate mode.... What do they do in Europe to meet the same requirements?

Yah, dunno, good one. I'm lamentably ill-informed about flying training outside the English-speaking peoples. We've 2 Spanish instructors at work but they both got their FI ratings in the UK and as they're aspiring airline pilots I believe they've both got JAA-IR. If I find out, I'll come back...

Cheers,
TOO

[IO540]

TOO

There never can be a 'one-stop shop' that will accurately reflect everyone's needs and aspirations because they are all different and sometimes mutually exclusive

Can you give an example where they are mutually exclusive?

[Rod1]

“Can you give an example where they are mutually exclusive?”

Yes

When the PFA, BGA, BMAA and AOPA were negotiating the NPPL the first three wanted training to be allowed from unlicensed strips. AOPA were dead against it as it was not in the interests of its corporate members. Fortunately we got a second bite at this, as the Europeans do not a comparable licensing requirement.

Rod1

[IO540]

AOPA were dead against it as it was not in the interests of its corporate members

That one is sure to get you a response, Rod1, though not from me (it doesn't suprise me at all) :)

Any other examples, anybody?

I am thinking of examples which relate to pilots and their requirements, not preferences of representative bodies. The latter will always have some curious vested interests.

[TheOddOne]

Any other examples, anybody?


Well, yes, actually.

The FAI recently introduced the concept of drug testing to sporting aviation. Now some groups were strongly in favour of this, in order to clean up their image, notably the parachutists where there is a history of recreational drug taking in some parts of the world. Those taking part in World Championships wanted to prove that they weren't a part of this scene and were clean and wanted the external requirements of testing to demonstrate this. Other groups were implacably against what they saw as an unwarranted intrusion and a slur on their good character. In fact, there probably aren't any performance-enhancing drugs that would help say, a balloonist or glider pilot but those taking prescription beta-blockers for hypertension might well get called in.

TheOddOne

[IO540]

I find that one puzzling TOO because parachuting has very little connection with normal aviation (flying things), and in aviation anybody can be "ramp checked" which includes drug testing.

I wonder if there are examples of pilot privileges which are mutually exclusive between groups of pilots.

[TheOddOne]

parachuting has very little connection with normal aviation

...who am I to disagree??!! :)Quote of the year so far! :E

However, they are a significant force in sporting aviation. This is about having a regime of regular testing whether or not you're about to fly/jump as a part of a sporting code, as per Olympic athletes.


All right then, how about microlight flying instruction/training versus SEP flying instruction/training or glider flying instruction/training? I can imagine a situation where one group might be prepared to do the dirty on another to gain their own advantage in terms of minimum maintenance standards, for instance. Who knows what goes on behind closed doors?

TOO

[Crash one]

I have no idea what the answer is, but, the fragmented recreational side of GA is, in my opinion, most of the problem. The PFA are trying to lose the 1930s trilby hat & plus fours image by name changing, fine, good start. Interesting point, the cover photo of the very first LAA magazine is a Eurostar, possible Microlight.
When we get something called the Recreational Aviation Association, encompassing all bodies BMAA, BGA, LAA, BRA, BHGA, have I missed any? All fighting "City Hall" with one voice then we may survive. Why, in the name of whatever, would AOPA dissagree with NPPL training at unlicenced strips? The NPPL has no provision for continuing to CPL, IMC, IR or anything "commercial". Isn't this a bit like the big kids chucking the little kids out of the playground because they don't have a full size ball?
Personally I think the NPPL is a great thing, once it is expanded a bit & I can fly VFR to Europe that is all a lot of recreational pilots want. If it encourages more people to fly the voice will get stronger.
One small point though, I have noticed a small trend from some towards a "not so well qualified" attitude. I hope this does not start to grow otherwise there will be another fragment to fight.

[S-Works]

Can I just point out that AOPA did not fight against training at unlicensed strips neither did they fight against the bringing back the PPL Instructor. Quite the opposite in fact. They are all for training from unlicensed strips as it would allow the small airfield to become unlicensed and continue to train without the expensive costs of a licence.

Can I also point out that AOPA were the major instigator of the NPPL in an effort to reinvigorate the training market and general GA market.

[Crash one]

My apologies, I'm only going by what Rod1 said.

[rustle]

If the campaign has done nothing more than bring this matter to the forefront of everyones attention, enabled the issues to be widely discussed and reflected the strength of feeling then I beleive it has achieved something.

Beware that any "campaign" is not merely holding a venomous snake by the tail and irritating it. :8

[Islander2]

Beware that any "campaign" is not merely holding a venomous snake by the tail and irritating it.Whilst you've undoubtedly been making a bit of an a*se of yourself on this topic, rustle, I'm sure Fuji would not wish you to refer to yourself as a "venomous snake"! :):):)

[Islander2]

But on a more serious note ....

.... rustle, you presumably agree with bose's assessment that UK GA is going to be 'bitten' in any event in respect of the IMCR (and from all your recent posts, here and in the other place, it's difficult to believe the two of you could disagree on anything :hmm:), so ....

.... exactly what problems do you foresee from Fuji and others grabbing the "venomous snake by the tail and irritating it"?

Despite the many thousands of (often unappealingly vitriolic) words that have been written of late in connection with the future of the IMCR under EASA FCL, I find it truly difficult to discern a meaningful difference between the two 'sides'.

Both profess to believe passionately in the importance of the rating's continuation in some form (whilst, IMHO, seriously understating the impact of its loss). Both want something to be done. Bose et al believe the 'fight' should be left to AOPA, whilst simultaneously expressing the opinion that AOPA will fail in their attempt to retain the rating! Fuji et al, express reservations about leaving to AOPA, yet get crucified for mounting a separate campaign. Both seem to agree completely with the arguments that should be used in favour of retaining some form of IMCR. Yet bose seems determined that Fuji and his cohorts should present a different advocacy platform for their campaign.

It's a funny old world!

[Contacttower]

As is so often the case, the devil is in the detail....:E

[S-Works]

Just hang on a sec Islander, you have completely taken the wrong view on my position.

Firstly I did not say leave it to AOPA. I also did not say that AOPA see the battle as lost I said it was my personal opinion that it has probably gone to for now but I would be happy to stand corrected. I would like nothing better than to be wrong.

The alternative campaign was started because Fuji did not like the submission or the work that AOPA was doing and went to very great lengths to tell us how crap they were, so how can he be in agreement with what AOPA have done?

If he is not in agreement and has to run his own campaign I have just asked to see what that campaign is. He is asking for supporters and presumably I am invited to be a supporter so I just wanted to see what the pitch is to decide if I want to support it or not. I have expressed the view that without a proper pitch for the campaign it is flawed.

I have tried to play devils advocate with the counter arguments thats all, which is exactly what will happen when they are put to committee. The campaign owes itself to get all the facts straight before they make any type of pitch or they will be laughed out of the room.

Geremy Clarkson received more votes on the petition raised to make him prime minister.......

The Downing Street petition site is just a way of ignoring the masses while making them think they are being listened to, NOTHING is ever acted on from that site, government use it as away of keeping us quiet along with football and The Sun. I have already told you what will happen, everyone will get a nice letter from the office of the PM saying thanks very much but it is an EU or whatever matter.

I wish fuji all the best with his campaign.

[eltonioni]

You know exactly what the PM response will be, something along the lines of "The Civil Aviation Authority is responsible for representing the UK on aviation matters".

However, if Fuji's petition (and these forum threads) provide a rallying point for individuals who would have otherwise been unaware or unmotivated it can only be a 'good thing'. It's not the petition that counts, it's what it stimulates. A couple of months ago the IMC discussions were unknown and the EASA position was being drawn up without a by nor leave to what we all think. Now look at the fuss among the proles.

Bose, don't give up the ghost just yet.

[IO540]

It's not the petition that counts, it's what it stimulates

Exactly right, all good publicity and it is delivering results, with the press taking notice too.

As with most things in aviation, the picture is 100% political (otherwise every ICAO member could just validate each other's FCL and certification, and sack much of their staff) and while on the face of it it is a Eurocrat-only matter, the reality is that it isn't, nothing is a done deal, and there is a lot of work done under the table and in the bar before the committee meetings.

This is both a good thing (means nothing is a done deal until it is a done deal) and a bad thing (lack of transparency, committee votes can be rigged beforehand in the well established Town & Country Planning Committee manner, where you back one rep because he backs you on something else, possibly in a different committee altogether) but it does all mean that NO effort is wasted.

Well done FUJI and others.

[Fuji Abound]

Fuji did not like the submission or the work that AOPA was doing

Not so.

I found it difficult to establish what AOPAs submission was and how they had formulated their campaign.

Bose was good enough to help us out with the former.

For their to be a campaign, people have to feel passionate about the matter for which they are campaigning. They cant be passionate unless they understand the issues.

I believe the campaign, including the petition, has caused more interest and debate than was taking place before.

The petition should not been seen in isolation. I would hope that many who have signed the petition will write at the appropriate time to EASA and to their Euro MPs.

From my perspective, it is true that the response of a few has been vitriolic, which seems surprising given that we are all on the same side.

I would never have guessed that it would have spilled over in another thread in another place in the way that it did. I am not so naive as to be persuaded that there was any real interest in debating the issues that arose on that thread by some, but rather to prosecute another agenda. More than a few picked up on that.

I know a few did not agree with my views regarding AOPA, however given the other recent threads on this issue I am clearly not alone in the views I have expressed. I would love to see AOPA flourishing.

I believe that the changes proposed by EASA provided a pivotal opportunity for the representative organisations to unite GA in fighting for our rights. I believe that opportunity had already been missed when this campaign started and that much of the damage had already been done by then.

So far as I am concerned, trying to save the IMC rating in something we pilots are doing for ourselves. We are expressing how important this is to us. We are garnering as much support as possible. We are putting the issue as squarely as we can in front of everyone.

Given that the view was expressed that the IMC rating had probably already been lost it is difficult to understand the corollary with a poisonous snake. More to the point, and perhaps it is just me, I don’t understand the basis of such one line comments - are they intended to be humorous, or clever or to antagonise? I could understand the comment if it was followed by some exposition of why that view was held, but that was not the case. I still believe on something like this, either you declare yourself in support of the campaign and work constructively to promote the campaign in the best way, or you clearly declare against the campaign and / or the way in which it is being promoted and set out your reasons for holding that view.

Needless to say I still believe this campaign is very worth while.

The more we debate the issue in a constructive way the better. Bose is right to question why we need the IMC rating. However, we need to be careful not to go over ground already covered. If others have already set out the basis of why the IMC rating is important lets make sure we all understand their reasoning and build and develop on the good work they have already done - not try and reinvent the wheel.

I don’t see this as something that one or a group of people are doing, but rather as a campaign we all take on for ourselves. If it is successful it is not a matter of any one taking credit rather, it should be perceived as the satisfaction we all take from retaining a very useful and safe privilege that has stood the test of a great deal of time.

Bose - thank you for your well wishes. I know you are doing a very good job with AOPA and I wish you well with that.

[rustle]

Actually bose, I believe the best result we can hope for from the ill-advised petition is that it is completely ignored by everyone.

.... exactly what problems do you foresee from Fuji and others grabbing the "venomous snake by the tail and irritating it"?

One problem with thrusting stuff into the public domain, especially something as contentious as this, is that it would take very little effort to make the [optimistic maximum 3000] signatures look very silly indeed by someone starting a counter-petition (which is encouraged on the website) and gaining 10 times that number of signatures within days.

When discussing or debating reasonably technical matters it is usually best to let those who know what they're talking about discuss/debate behind closed doors then publically announce the output.

To expect public support (which is, after all, what a petition to the PM is all about) for something 99% of the population wouldn't have a clue about is courting with danger. Once the genie is out the bottle and the privs of an IMC holder are being openly discussed I think problems are on the way.

Rather than seeing the petition, website, and ongoing discussion on these media-facing boards as positive contributions to the retention of a rating, I think they will kill it stone dead. :rolleyes:

The quickest way to kill privs like this is for a mid-air (God forbid) to happen as that immediately identifies a risk/fact.

The second quickest way to kill privs like this is for public discussion which immediately identifies a risk - perceived or otherwise.

There is no point telling everyone that in 50(sic) years there has never been an accident/incident by a qualified IMC holder operating within their privs: Since time began there has never been an accident/incident on an GA airfield apron that would have been prevented by wearing a yellow jacket. You still have to wear a yellow jacket though ;)

--

Still think I'm wrong?

1. The media watch the petitions website for anything interesting. We all know and expect this.

2. Pilot unions across the EU (and possibly the world) rightly or wrongly oppose the IMC rating

3. The IMC rating is the only rating in the world where legally a 17 year old (who may not even be allowed to drive on a motorway) with 15 hours experience can fly within [approx] 800 feet of a 747 full of passengers with a closing speed > 400mph without being able to see anything out the window (i.e. IMC).

--

Putting the debate about IMC rating into the public domain is a bad move and will cause untold more damage to pilot privs than EASA or anyone else could dream of if it gets picked-up by any of the media.

It could even be seized upon by an airline CEO who operates out of a Class D airport if he wanted a bit of publicity. Who do we know who operates aircraft into many UK Class D airports who likes a bit of controversy? :p Blimey, even his pilots would like him for that :D

---

Since FA seems obsessed with himself, rest assured that the DA42 discussion elsewhere wasn't fuelled by this discussion at all - notwithstanding a few sychophantic comments from SEP flyers :D

[Fuji Abound]

Since FA seems obsessed with himself, rest assured that the DA42 discussion elsewhere wasn't fuelled by this discussion at all - notwithstanding a few sychophantic comments from SEP flyers

OK, OK, we all enjoy the smart one liners - including me - all good fun -albeit what possessed you to take the trouble to go back and edit your first post to add that one is beyond me.

However can we do a deal and just call it quits on them for the purpose of this debate. I am not going to post on any other issues, so it should work fine.

gaining 10 times that number of signatures within days.
Who do you think would do so, and why?

Do you think the same could be said of many other matters with regards GA?

For example, what sort of case could be made if a GA IR holder had an accident (God forbid) with a commercial aircraft. It might start with a simple statement along the lines of what the hell are we doing allowing these private pilots who havent done a check for two years and havent logged 20 hours in the last year to be flying around in the airways with commercial aircraft who have two highly trained crew members that are required to go into a sim every six months to demonstrate their competance.

Is there a case that the moment we give in to that approach we are all lost?

[rustle]

Who do you think would do so, and why?

There are several groups of people who might want to do such a thing, I gave a couple of examples in my post, but really that should have been thought about prior to going public...

Do you think the same could be said of many other matters with regards GA?
Despite your inaccurate description of the JAA IR renewal process I don't think PPL/IR or AOPA would be putting the debate in the public forum.

We (or me at least) are discussing now your choice to put the IMC rating debate in the public domain; not something that may or may not happen, but what you have chosen to do despite guidance/suggestions from myself, bose and David Roberts (amongst others) that it wasn't a good idea.

I would have expected your campaign manager (the guy who started the petition) to have been a bit more media-savvy than that ;)

Islander2 asked me why I thought you were playing with a venomous snake and AFAIAC I have answered that. :)

FTR I only edited my previous to change "UK Airspace" to "The IMC rating" in point number 3 in the second section of my post as it made more sense.

[Fuji Abound]

presumably I am invited to be a supporter

Sorry, Bose, I missed that. Of course. In fact I would love to have your support and technical assistance on moving the campaign forward, in the same way, and as I said before, it would be great to see AOPA or anyone else of for that matter come together to form a single concerted campaign.

Rustle

So do we have a truce, then?


There are several groups of people who might want to do such a thing, I gave a couple of examples in my post, but really that should have been thought about prior to going public...

You will recall how the petition came to pass.

However, and as I have now said on numerous occasions, the petition should not been seen in isolation. Nor should it be seen as an end in itself, but as the basis for demonstrating to whoever might be interested the strength of support across a wide cross section of people.

So far as these groups are concerned I am still interested as to who you have in mind. I think I can give you some very good reasons why infact they would not have the support you believe exists.



Despite your inaccurate description of the JAA IR renewal process I don't think PPL/IR or AOPA would be putting the debate in the public forum.

I know, but I thought that was the point you were making.

We all know the press arent concerned with technical accuracy, but emotive reaction. A pilot with an IMC rating endangering hundreds of passengers in class D and a private IR holder doing the same in class A is no different so far as the press are concerned. Do you think they are interested in the revalidation process, but rather to draw as many distinctions between the way commercial operators go about safety and the perceived way private pilots go about safety. If it suites them, both are inadequately qualified - one no more, nor more less than the other.

You are a defender of the IR, and rightly so, but it will not get you anywhere if we are going to give in to those sort of arguments.

In fact, in some ways your position (devil's advocate mode) is more tenious.

Do you think the commercial operators want you pottering around in your SEP coming off airways with the perception of delaying their arrivals and departures? Do you thnik they would far rather the IMCr holders who will stay well away from controlled airspace and on the whole larger airports? Will you be the next target?

I fully appreciate that is not the case BUT that is why it is so important to explain what the private pilot wants and why, and to demonstrate that the evidence supports the ratings are sound.

[eltonioni]

rustle, I do think that the notion of the petition bringing out opponents is a total of a red herring. As for what the press want to report or sensationalise, which is the better headline...

One day a pilot might crash into another in cloud but it's not happened so far

- or -

Euro bureaucrats ban UK pilots safety qualification

? ;)

[Gertrude the Wombat]

committee votes can be rigged beforehand in the well established Town & Country Planning Committee manner, where you back one rep because he backs you on something else, possibly in a different committee altogether
This is very seriously illegal indeed (assuming you're talking about UK planning decisions). Please pass your evidence to the police and/or the standards board.

[rustle]

If it suites them, both are inadequately qualified - one no more, nor more less than the other.
:ugh:


An instrument rating is an ICAO rating recognised throughout the civilised world: The IMC rating isn't and never will be.

The safety case for an IMC rating wouldn't/couldn't exist judged today. The same cannot be said of the IR (FAA, JAA or otherwise)

I know you like to deflect attention from what we are discussing - but we aren't discussing world-wide recognised ratings, we are discussing a UK anachronism; and further we are discussing your misguided (IMO) decision to start publicly discussing the privileges of it.

Anyway, I'm bored of this now. You won't listen to or try and understand any view other than your own - I don't expect you to agree with me but I would have expected you to at least argue coherently.

Have fun.

[IO540]

Rustle, why don't you give up on your private anti IMCR war here. It isn't working, almost nobody (who flies for real) supports the position that only the full IR is good enough, and anyway the war was lost as soon as the wider pilot population discovered what is on the cards.

[Fuji Abound]

An instrument rating is an ICAO rating recognised throughout the civilised world: The IMC rating isn't and never will be. Bose and AOPA suggested some very good improvements to the Euro IR. It doesnt look like they will come to pass.

There has been comment on here about the future of the FAA IR.

Given these developments, and a long history of making it more difficult for the private pilot to gain an IR in Europe, it could be deduced that the commercial operators would far rather there were be no private pilots pottering around in their rubber band SEPs in the airways.

If a very few are able to do so, then I am not sure that is any sort of victory for GA, rather for a small number to see their days out.


You won't listen to or try and understand any view other than your own
On the contrary. It may seem sarcastic, but it is not meant, when I say I am trying, and I am sorry I don’t meet up to your far higher standard of debate.

I thought the point your were making is any debate about the IMC rating is vulnerable because it does not measure up to perceived safety.

I thought a reasonable counter was that by the same token, a not dis-similar argument could be made for single pilot private IR operations.

I sort to point out that if the argument is not going to be based on the evidence, it is just as valid to argue that ICAO standard or not, a private pilot who operates to very different standards than commercial operators should not be flying around in the same airspace as passenger aircraft.

[rustle]

Rustle, why don't you give up on your private anti IMCR war here. It isn't working, almost nobody (who flies for real) supports the position that only the full IR is good enough, and anyway the war was lost as soon as the wider pilot population discovered what is on the cards.

I am not "anti IMCR" and never have been.

The only point I have ever made in relation to this is that fighting EASA, EAS, or anyone else about retained IMCR privileges in the public domain is not in anyone's best interest.

Not rocket science to see that public opinion would not favour its retention is it?

Putting it in the public domain was misguided and damaging.

If, after all AOPA, PPL/IR and others in the background have done the rating is lost we'll know why...

...and it won't be because any of those organisations weren't behind it 100%.

Ironic or what? :hmm:

If you can point me to any post where I have said the IMCR should be scrapped go ahead.

[eltonioni]

Not rocket science to see that public opinion would not favour its retention is it?

Even if they knew about it why would they care one way or another? The IMC is hardly the cause of multiple deaths and dismemberments is it?
If Joe Public has a problem with a safety qualification (rating) then they would have a problem with amateurs flying aeroplanes in the first place. It's a rubbish argument rustle. :p

[IO540]

The only point I have ever made in relation to this is that fighting EASA, EAS, or anyone else about retained IMCR privileges in the public domain is not in anyone's best interest.

I see no supporting evidence for that strategy.

Not rocket science to see that public opinion would not favour its retention is it?

Public opinion cares about TV, sex, fish and chips. Not sure how that is relevant to flying.

Putting it in the public domain was misguided and damaging.

I totally fail to understand the rationale for that statement. The issue entered the public domain all by itself, as soon as it was realised the UK signed up to the relevant treaty, and EASA announced it would plan to scrap national ratings.

What you suggest is a bit like keeping the declaration of WW2 a secret and letting that great hugely experienced and shrewd judge of character Chamberlain to quietly pop over to Berlin and sort it out with the Germans, before the great British public finds out and starts to make a fuss.

If, after all AOPA, PPL/IR and others in the background have done the rating is lost we'll know why...
...and it won't be because any of those organisations weren't behind it 100%.

Let me just say it is apparent that you are not fully informed about the detailed positions on this issue [specifically on whether there should be any sub-IR instrument privilege] of all the organisations you list above.... however the dirty laundry of some of them has already been out in the open and there is little point in me dragging it out yet again.

I can tell you that this campaign has dragged out quite a lot of people who are in the most influential positions, who are dismayed about this proposal, and who would have not even heard about it had it not been publicised. Almost nobody reads the EASA tomes, written as they are in a manner which needs a magnifying glass to unravel the meaning of each tightly written paragraph.

[Fuji Abound]

If, after all AOPA, PPL/IR and others in the background have done the rating is lost we'll know why...

What is ironic is that if the rating is saved it will be down to all the good work AOPA has done, and if it is lost, then AOPA will still have done the good work but undone by others. That is quite a clever political game, if it were really AOPAs position, which I very much doubt.

I take on board your point Rustle but I agree with eltonioni in that I very much doubt the public understand, know or care. So far as they are concerned if what we do is apporved by the CAA that is good enough for them. I can only assume the CAA has thought the rating fit for purpose for more than the last thirty years, whereas they have actually made the IR much harder to obtain so perhaps they have more concerns about some who held the rating in the past.

[S-Works]

A one liner.....

The CAA have been concerned over the IMCR for a very long time. To change it would have required an RIA and they knew EASA was coming so did not bother.

Our working group made some changes to it this year as an interim which are in LASORS 2008.

So please don't assume the CAA have been comfortable with the IMCR.

They have not made the IR harder to attain, they have just fallen in line with the rest of JAA with some gold plating, in reality the IR is no harder to obtain than it has ever been.

[Fuji Abound]

The CAA have been concerned over the IMCR for a very long time. To change it would have required an RIA and they knew EASA was coming so did not bother.

What aspects were they concerned with?

On what evidence did they base their concern?

They have not made the IR harder to attain, they have just fallen in line with the rest of JAA with some gold plating, in reality the IR is no harder to obtain than it has ever been.

Why do you not consider the abolishen of the 700 hour self improver route did not make it more difficult for the private pilot?

Why do you not consider the original imposition of class room based theoretical content did not make it more difficult?

What about the German initiative with VFR C. Do you see this as presenting the same problems?

[IO540]

The CAA have been concerned over the IMCR for a very long time

You mean some people in the CAA didn't like it. That is normal... there are constant battles within the CAA on all kinds of matters.

I don't like flying at night. It really isn't safe. So what?

[Fuji Abound]

I0540

You know I was just thinking about all this again.

Bose says that the CAA had concerns about the IMC rating.

On another thread someone has just written to the CAA and the reply was:

"The CAA is pushing EASA very hard for this (the rentention of the rating) but are one voice amongst 27 so may not succeed."

(I am not saying you are wrong Bose, or that the CAA cant be pushing for its retention on the one hand, but have concerns on the other)

It occurs to me that this is an industry tearing itself apart through disinformation, lack of communication, vested interests, lack of consultation and disingenious comment.

From the point of view of GA, keep the process "secret" leaking pieces of information when it suites you and you will lack any creditability.

I know of no other industry like it.

Why dont people understand that if you were in the process of considering whether on not to spend a quarter of a million pounds on a new IFR certified aircraft you wanted a bit more certainty.

[S-Works]

Just because the CAA have concerns over the rating does not mean they want to see it go!

Ever thought that they want to see it improved and retained? Why read something negative into everything. I merely pointed out that from FIRST HAND experience working on the group that those concerns exist and that an attempt was made to address some of them. Something the CAA deserve credit for.

I am not getting into a debate over the IR. I know it needs accessibility improving but I don't think it's any worse than it was in the past.

[Fuji Abound]

Bose

I did clearly say the two positions were not mutually exclusive and I was not reading the negative into the CAAs stance.

The point I was making is that it would be helpful to all concerned for as much clarrity as to exactly where the parties stood.

With regard to the IR, nor was I getting into a debate. I was simply responding to your comment that in my view accessibility is worse and explaining why.

[S-Works]

difference between accessibility and ease....... the accessibility needs improving but the IR is no more difficult than it has ever been.

[rustle]

Let me just say it is apparent that you are not fully informed about the detailed positions on this issue [specifically on whether there should be any sub-IR instrument privilege] of all the organisations you list above.... however the dirty laundry of some of them has already been out in the open and there is little point in me dragging it out yet again.

The two I mentioned in the context of the quote you used were PPL/IR and AOPA, and I am comfortable with my knowledge on their position.

The only other organisation I mentioned, at the head of my post and unrelated to the comment you quoted, was EAS. I am aware of your views on EAS and how you believe they sold us out on the IFR on LAPL issue.

If nothing else I do you guys the courtesy of reading and understanding your posts (in or out of any particular thread) prior to posting: Quid pro quo? ;)