What aircraft to buy ?

[PompeyPaul]

I've done all of my training in a PA28. I'm now looking to buy a share in a PA28 because I'm confident with that.

Looking around though, why ? The Mooney is very attractive. An extra gallon an hour for an extra 55kts cruise speed. This means that the North of France is only 40mins away instead of an hour.

Why would anyone buy a PA28 or C172 when the Mooney seems to do all of the things these aircraft do but MUCH faster!

I also love the look of the Pitts but think it may get a bit cold up there at times!

[gcolyer]

Maintenance and running costs.

PA28 or C172=Fixed under carraige fixed pitch prop=cheaper to maintain than rectractable under carraige and wobbly prop.

Plus you would need to do a few hours complex diferences training and get signed off.

Other than that I would say it is horses for courses.

[Final 3 Greens]

IMHO you would be well advised to get a few more hours under your belt before flying a Mooney or a Bonanza.

They are great aeroplanes, but require a defter touch than a PA28 and also more forward planning, and flexibility when the plan changes.
If you wish to go retract, an Arrer is the natural step up.

[stiknruda]

I also love the look of the Pitts but think it may get a bit cold up there at times!


A four seat aluminium tourer to a single or two seat "rag and tube" aerobatic biplane - I suggest that you really decide what your normal "mission profile" looks like and equip suitably.

The Pitts transition trg will probably take twice as long as the Mooney assuming you have no tail wheel time. As for being cold up there, well dress accordingly and only go as high as you safely need to.

Best is to go fly with someone in a Pitts and see if it really is your bag. They are noisy, uncomfortable, basic VFR and have limited range. And I wouldn't be without one!!

A to B is entirely possible and I spend a good amount of time Norfolk to the west country, to the Midlands, to Yorkshire, to the Continent. The thing to note is that there really isn't space to nav/plan as you would in a PA28. I put everything on my chart: the route, the wind, the waypoints, the time/dist markers, frequencies - cos it's hard to read the printed ones as you vibrate along at 150mph. It trims only in pitch, you need one hand on the stick and as a tyro pilot you will find it difficult to tune the radio, reset the GPS one-handed without departing from straight and level. Impossible, hell no but it is not the same as having a kneeboard, a PLOG, a chart and a stable platform that will remain where it is pointed whilst you scribble down clearances, etc.

For the price of a four seat Piper, I know of a very nice low houred six seat Cherokee - that might be just your ticket!

[Final 3 Greens]

I know of a very nice low houred six seat Cherokee - that might be just your ticket!

I converted onto a 6-300 at 74 hours.

Lovely aeroplane, good way to learn about flying and in particular the importance of weight and balance.

Also significantly faster in the cruise than a PA28.

[gcolyer]

hey Stik if the 6 that you know for sale is a 300 and not a 260 PM me the details. I am interested.

[sternone]

Why would anyone buy a PA28 or C172 when the Mooney seems to do all of the things these aircraft do but MUCH faster!

Nobody would!!

Go for the Mooney!! No doubt!!

[Pilotdom]

Friend of mine has a mooney. He converted onto that at 60 hours and he reckoned it took him ten hours to feel ahead of the aircraft. Mooneys are fantastic aircraft, they do require a defter topuch but they are not difficult to fly. You need to be careful to get the speed off for the circuit as they do not want to slow down. Ive flown with him quite a bit and find the mooney very nice to fly and very responsive. With the hersey bar gear on some models,there is very little to go wrong with the gear. Only thing I find is they are cramped in the cabin, but hey its streamlined for speed. Go get a mooney and enjoy it!

[er340790]

If you're going to buy one, buy a big-un!

[Fuji Abound]

OK, buying your first aircraft is actually quite a big step unless I suppose funds are no object what so ever.

There is usually a good reason why certain things are popular, and aircraft are no exception.

Pipers and Cessnas are the Ford of light aircraft as you probably know. They are simple to fly, are reasonable for touring, make a good instrument platform and most importantly, the parts are in plentiful supply, not too expensive and nearly everyone can carry out the service work.

However, if you are thinking of joining a group or buying your own aircraft a host of other factors should drive your decision.

1. How do you intend to use the aircraft? Are you going to tour (a lot), what about taking friends and family, is speed important,

2. Are you going to do an IR or IMC? Realistically your use of any aircraft will be severely restricted without. If you are, is the aircraft you are going to buy equipped to operate IFR?

3. Do you want to expand the flying you do. You will find fast retractables a reasonable step up from the aircraft you have been flying. Many better groups will require 100 hours P1 and some an IMC. If you are buying outright, or joining a group, you will need to consider how you are going to gain the extra experience you need.

4. Almost anything fast and slippery will cost rather more than just the extra fuel to run. It just seems to be the rule. In fact it probably stems from the fact that most fast aircraft are more complex, so there is more to go wrong. Moreover, I suspect the manufacturers feel if you could afford to buy a faster and therefore almost certainly more expensive aircraft in the first place, you can also afford greater running costs!

5. New aircraft may seem costly but the current generation of diesels with modern avionics and good nose to tail warranties and reasonable re-sale values may result in significantly cheaper flying in the long term. Never under estimate the cost of running an aircraft compared with the initial capital outlay for anything more than ten years old.

6. Consider trying a few different types. If you make the effort you will be surprised how many types of aircraft can be hired even if it is with a club instructor. By doing so you may just feel this is the one for you.

[PompeyPaul]

Thanks Fuji Bound. I guess I've just got the PPL and am evaluating, what next ?

[englishal]

seems to do all of the things these aircraft do but MUCH faster!
And will kill you or put you in trouble a lot faster ;)

I'd get some more experience for a while if I were you, in various aeroplanes. When I went from basic 172's / PA28's to the Arrow soon after getting my PPL even with that modest speed increase the aeroplane was getting ahead of me.

[stickandrudderman]

It's like having a mosquito bite; It itches but try not to scratch it!
Like you I was keen to buy a share in a complex (arrow) as soon as I got my PPL, but luckily for me, thefirst group I got involved in turned out to be a time-wasting disaster!
After a while trawling the small ads looking for shares to buy, I had had test flights in quite a few different aeroplanes, and came to understand how no one aeroplane was going to meet my needs.
I also discovered that harmonious groups are a minority group!
I now prefer to adopt the three Fs rule, and am quite content!
That's not to say I WON'T buy anything, (if anyone knows of a nice cheap chippy project let me know:ok:)

I suppose it would help if you had some enthusiastic friends or partner who will be willing and able to accompany you on whatever flights you choose to undertake, but I found that once all of my friends had had their "flying in light aircraft" experience and parted with their share of the costs, flying became a solitary past-time and it became difficult to motivate myself to go anywhere. (I don't mind my own company but it gets VERY expensive, not only in terms of cash, but in terms of time spent in a selfish indulgence{browny points are hard to score!})!

Anyway.......I'm beginning to ramble. (Just finishing my first friday night beer!) (Mckewans Champion at 7.2%:ok:)

I've recently discovered aeros and have renewed enthusiasm....

In a nutshell:
I suggest you wait a while and get some more experience under your belt in order that you may find out which type of flying you are happiest spending you hard earnt cash on.
Unless of course you cash isn't hard earnt, in which case you can do it all you lucky sod!

Ooops, bottle's empty, time to go to the fridge again.....

[IO540]

These questions are unfortunately largely pointless because if you ask 50 pilots what plane they like you will get 50 different answers. This is not a cheap hobby, and anybody who bought a plane will obviously like the one they have bought. A bit like spending £500 on speaker cables - they must sound good.

Aircraft design is a compromise and always will be. Different planes place the compromises in different places.

The thing I would suggest is this: look hard at what you really want to do, and then make a commitment. The longer you hang around the (usually) decrepit self fly hire scene the more likely you are to get sick of flying old crap, and chuck it in.

If you want to go places, then buying something with decent performance early on is a good idea. 150kt is only a bit quicker than 100kt and it takes only hours to get used to it. I now wish I had done this sooner, rather than wasting a year renting old junk.

Plenty of people have done their whole PPL in a TB20. Not in the UK of course, but in the Far East. Here, the instructors would cringe at the idea of somebody learning at > 100kt.

Why would anyone buy a PA28 or C172 when the Mooney seems to do all of the things these aircraft do but MUCH faster!

It sounds like you have a decent budget. The answer is that most people in UK GA are skint, and there are plenty of PA28s and C172s, 20-30 years old, going for say £20k-£40k. These old airframes require lots of expensive maintenance but if you haven't got the capital to buy a new one, you have no choice...

I can't speak for a Mooney since I have never flown one but they are regarded as somewhat cramped. This is where the efficiency comes from - a narrow cockpit offers less drag. BTW, you won't get an extra 55kt for 1 extra GPH - I suggest you verify any such claims.

[Whirlybird]

I suggest you wait a while and get some more experience under your belt in order that you may find out which type of flying you are happiest spending you hard earnt cash on.


Stickandrudderman said it before I could.

You've only just got your PPL; it's highly unlikely you know what sort of flying you really want to do, and it certainly sounds from your post like you don't.

Do you want a fast tourer? Do you want something responsive and aerobatic? Do you want to land on short grass strips regularly? Do you want to be able to load up your aircraft with family and friends and luggage?

You won't get an aircraft that will do all those things well. They may get one that does all of them after a fashion, or one that is extremely good at one or two of them. So which of those would you prefer?

Don't buy yet. Don't even buy a share, unless hiring for any length of time where you fly from is impossible. Get used to being a pilot, get more experience, and find out what you really like doing. Ask around, talk to owners, sit in their aircraft, find out more both about groups and about ownership. Try out different aircaft, particularly taildraggers or much faster aircraft, to see if you like the reality, or just the idea.

Then, and only then, will you be in a position to decide on what you want to do.

[foxmoth]

BTW, you won't get an extra 55kt for 1 extra GPH - I suggest you verify any such claims.

You may not quite get this improvement but I did borrow an M20F to fly to Belgium once and IIRC got approx 35-40 kts more than a Pa28 for the same burn!:ok:

[robin]

Quite right

At our airfield there are a number of newly-minted PPLs who have the dream of touring in a fast complex a/c.

The cold and painful reality is that until you have got some considerable time in the air (and get yourself instrument and night qualified) a complex aircraft is a step too far - unless you have shedloads of money.

Far better to experiment for a bit and find out what you want to do. Certainly don't rush into a share.

[Yankee]

If your ambition is to eventually move up to a complex single then you wouldn’t go far wrong in choosing the AA5B Tiger as a transition plane. The Tiger as all Grumman singles teach you the importance of speed control and stabilized approach which I understand is an important factor in most complex singles such as the Mooney/Bonanza.
In the past most people I know who moved on from the AA5B went on to such aircraft including now the Cirrus’s, jumping past the PA28 retrack’s.

[Droopystop]

An R44 (oh and a PPL(H))!:}

[Them thar hills]

PP
You'd not be wasting your time if you had a ride in 2-seat Jodel (cheap to operate) and also an RV6 or RV7 (not quite so cheap)
Both are OK for strips, and the RV series will definitely put a smile on your face whilst doing 160mph with no effort at all ! Both are VFR machines.
There's more to flying than traipsing about in a rather dull 4 place people mover (Reims Rocket excluded ) but if you need IMC capability a 4-place solidly stable tourer will be a help.
The basic question is do you want to fly for pure enjoyment, or to get from a to b ?
:)

[sternone]

I'm sure something will sell itself to me

Dont' count on that, now i know there are 3 difficult things in life.. (before i tought there were only 2... choosing a car and choosing a wife)

About people telling that the mooney is cramped, have they ever been in one ? I found that i have a lot of legroom in the mooney, and it fits good. The screens are a bit into the face that's true, but that is not a real problem. I have a porsche 911/997 and i drive also long trips with my porsche while sitting 15 hours in it.. people can't believe you are comftable in a porsche for so long, but it is, same goes for mooney.

[IO540]

The basic question is do you want to fly for pure enjoyment, or to get from a to b ?

If the Q was put that way, then the former bit would be an Extra 300 :)

For some reason, half the people on this forum seem to think that the ability to go places somehow excludes enjoyment :ugh: I go up once a week in the TB20, drilling holes in the clouds, doing (very) steep turns, lazy eights, chandelles. It's not "proper aerobatics" but you can do this in any decent 4-seat tourer which has plenty of power and has not had any "landing incidents which the pilot did not own up to".

Flying a 700nm leg from the UK to Italy, over the snow capped Alps, etc, is also rather enjoyable, as well as having considerable utility value. 2 legs in total and you are in Crete.

But yesterday I popped along to a little 600m runway in the middle of nowhere (in the UK). One can do that too.

The main thing that one can't do with a decent IFR capable tourer is all out aerobatics, which is why I referred to the Extra 300.

The other thing is that one can't operate it from 400 m grass farm strips which are common on the UK strip flying scene. A Cessna 182 is about the only distance-capable plane which can work off 400m grass.

The real reason why so many people fly RVs etc etc etc etc is because they are much more affordable. I flew in an RV8 recently. It flies very nicely, but it's very draughty, rain gets in through various orifices, and it has enough room for a toothbrush. You get what you pay for - not that there is anything wrong with that. It's just that if somebody has (say) a £150k budget, it's a bit silly telling him to buy a basic kit plane, which most female passengers would not be seen dead in.

[Whirlybird]

It's just that if somebody has (say) a £150k budget, it's a bit silly telling him to buy a basic kit plane, which most female passengers would not be seen dead in.

Possibly. But what female passengers would or wouldn't be seen dead in may not be at the top of someone's agenda, and presumably the person concerned knows his potential female passengers better than you do. Personally, speaking as a female, and occasionally a passenger, even before I began to fly I'd have gone for excitement and quirkiness above comfort...I can use the airlines for that!

If someone has a £150k budget, I'd ESPECIALLY tell them that as a student or new PPL they should hold off on the buying for a bit. Think about it, PompeyPaul and G-Emma. Haven't your ideas changed since you started to fly? They will change far more in your first year of flying. If you have that kind of money to spend, try something fast and comfortable, but also try helicopters, which can land anywhere you want to. And you'll impress passengers of either sex when you land at a hotel for lunch, guaranteed. :ok: If you have that sort of money the aviation world is your oyster - try aerobatics, and air racing, and check out the sort of aircraft that will tour AND get you into short strips...all the things that many of us can't afford. They may not be suitable for you now, but it'll give you an indication of where you want to go with your flying and what might be your best first aircraft or share.

And if you're still not sure, then carrying on hiring and trying new things for a while is possibly sensible. Some flying schools don't have availability problems, and let you take an aircraft away all day at short notice, or even for a few days. Find them.

I've been where you are. I spent years looking at books, checking out aircraft, chatting to owners, asking about various types - both f/w and rotary - on here. Eventually...I went a different route altogether. I know where you're both coming from but what's the rush?

[PompeyPaul]

Some great info here. I think you are right, it's probably time to hire and maybe hire some different types with an instructor for a year or so.

I also agree whirlybird, I fancy a few hours in a helicopter. I just hope I don't get completely bitten by the bug and shoot off to do a PPL(H).

I'm undecided about the IR. I'd love to do it, but the currency requirements put me off.

stickandrudderman your posts are always so entertaining to read. Have you ever considered writing a book ?

[IO540]

The FAA IR uses rolling currency; very easy to keep it current IF you fly to places for real. And if you don't fly then you can always do an IPC every year - this is basically what JAA IR holders have to do anyway.

I've sent you a PM, PP, with some info.

WB - I am sure you are not the sort of gurl I was referring to ;)

[stickandrudderman]

stickandrudderman your posts are always so entertaining to read. Have you ever considered writing a book ?

Actually I have thought about it a bit, but I'm a bit of a reactionist.
I need input from a third party to feed off, kind of like a stand-up comic needs banter from the audience.
If I try and create something from scratch, well, not much happens!

Thanks for your comments.:ok:

[scooter boy]

Pompey - buy the Mooney :ok:- It'll make Heraklion in Crete in 1 hop from the UK while sipping avgas all the way (be sure to pack your Lord John convenience pot because this plane has a far greater range than any human bladder can tolerate!)

In 3 years of ownership I have never (ever) had to make an intermediate stop for fuel flying anywhere in Europe - in a Mooney you just won't need to. I prefer to launch into the airways, lean out the engine, let the autopilot find its way to the destination and then subject the aircraft to my flying for the last 10 mins or so of the flight. It has plenty of legroom and definitely not cramped (I am 6ft tall and pretty broad and can stretch right out as Europe passes by underneath). It is true that you would be better cutting your teeth in a more forgiving airframe initially but when it comes to choosing the sweetest package for getting around fast you will not go wrong with one of Kerville's finest. The Ovation 3 looks a really nice machine, that is what I would buy now if I were in the market for a new aircraft. Not good for grass or short runways though - I prefer at least 800m of tarmac.

Droopy - The R44/PPL(H) is also fun but serves a totally different mission profile, (that of somebody with plenty of cash!) shorter distances, hand flying constantly, no autopilot, more versatility, more expensive.

Sternone - have you bought your Mooney yet?

SB:cool:

[sternone]

Sternone - have you bought your Mooney yet?


Haha, not yet.. first finishing my PPL then starting IR... aldo i'm test flying the Ovation 3 probably next month !!! (with the French mooney dealer, he will receive one in the comming weeks!!)

[IO540]

Here (http://www.cirruspilots.org/public/stories/compare.pdf)is some input on high perf singles.

Shame they miss out the TB20 but that is crap Socata U.S. marketing for you :)

You must have extended tanks on yours and are working on zero fuel reserve, SB, because the GC route from southern UK coast to LGIR is about 1400nm. The best airways route I can find today is 1509nm.

[On-MarkBob]

I am a licensed Aircraft engineer. I have done allot of air testing and have flown 118 types to date from Tiger Moth to Boeing 767. There are many wonderfull aircraft out there and as the man said above, it depends on what you want to do with it and how much you can afford. For just normal flying though, I would personally choose the Piper Arrow II, with the Lycoming IO-360 motor. This was in my humble opinion the best aircraft Piper ever turned out. Cheep to maintain, lots of parts and a delight to fly.

[FullyFlapped]

From IO540's document, comparing Mooney, Cirrus and Lancair :-

Payload, Flexibility. As we noted, it may be unrealistic to expect both payload and range out of single. But the Cessna 210 does it so we’re not willing to give up the dream.
Cracks me up : these three beautiful and undoubtedly technically excellent aircraft can still not compete with my old 210 if you're looking for a combination of speed, load carrying and field performance ! And this is why I'm really looking forward to seeing what the next offering from Cessna can do (not the 162, but the version being touted as the "new 210").

If I were in the market right now, I think I'd be waiting 18-24 months because I suspect things might just get very interesting ...

FF :ok:

[sternone]

I think I'd be waiting 18-24 months because I suspect things might just get very interesting ...

What are your predictions ?

[Baron Von Mildred]

Not forgetting of course the new generation of carbon fibre ultralights/microlights. If you can live with 2 seats daytime VFR the likes of the WT9 Dynamic represent unbeatable performance with economy -125kts on 18litres/hour mogas (Rotax 912s), with amazing short strip capability.

Hangarage can be a significant expense, being able to use 2-300m farm strips/barns opens up a whole new area of economy.