Air Taxi Experience Requirements

[badboy raggamuffin]

Hi all,

I understand that to fly single pilot multi-engine IFR public transport flights (ie air taxi) there is a requirement to have something like 700 hrs total time with 100 multi?
Does anybody know where this comes from? is it a CAA rule? (have tried searching their website but as usual its impossible to find anything u look for on there), or is it some kind of general rule made up by the air taxi firms or their insurers?

[Flying_Mech]

JAA requirment. I belive you'll find it in JAR-OPS1.

FM

[badboy raggamuffin]

hows about single pilot single engine IFR in something like a cessna caravan? Does the same rule apply?

ok, so 700 hrs, could get that through instructing fairly easily I suppose but 100 hours multi? Where on earth r u sopposed to get them from? Can u count the dual stuff u did on ur mep rating and IR?

[Life's a Beech]

It's not in JAR-OPS. It is a mistake in LASORS (requirement is only for certain types of multi-crew aircraft when operated single-crew). There are hours requirements, but not that high, although in practice to do the job the experience is often needed - I certainly had those hours when I started. It is not an easy business at all!

[MrHorgy]

Depends if they ask for 100hrs Multi PIC. If it's just the hours then your ME and IR will count, if they ask for PIC you can only use the skills tests as thats the only flights from the course you log as PIC.

Horgy

[Captain Spam Can]

I thought it wasnt possible to fly commercial single engine IFR Operations in the UK.

[Mercenary Pilot]

I thought it wasnt possible to fly commercial single engine IFR Operations in the UK.It's not...I have seen some PC-12's being operated but I believe they are under private ownership and probably not on an AOC. Some JAA states do have an exemption to this rule though.

I understand that to fly single pilot multi-engine IFR public transport flights (ie air taxi) there is a requirement to have something like 700 hrs total time with 100 multi?It's not mandatory, I was considering an air-taxi job a while back and the requirements were 300TT 100ME. I don't know whether the company needs to seek permission from the CAA to do this but I think 700/100 is unrealistic with the JAA system in place.

Best regards

MP

:ok:

[On speed on profile]

When I was doing it, a couple of years ago, it was 700TT 100 ME of which 40 must be P1 IFR. Its not easy to get these days!!! That is for Public Transport ops and not Aerial work! The only sensible way to build it up is through aerial work stuff.

It will be in the FCL section of JAR ops and is/was a mandatory requirement. I commend any of you that are going down that route! It is hard work and not easy flying but totally rewarding.

Good Luck!

[portsharbourflyer]

A few comment, the JAR ops requirement is 700 total with 40 multi p1 IFR. One company in the UK does have a concesion to operate single pilot with 400 tt and 40 p1 multi.
Cessna Caravan; does the same rule apply? no it doesn't becasue in the UK and most of Europe you cannot use a single engine turboprop for public transport AOC work under IFR (although they have been campaigning for years to have the single engine IFR ban lifted). Some countries do allow freight work with single turboprops.
Most "aerial work" on a twin would be day VFR (ie: survey or para dropping, therefore wouldn't meet the requirements for 40 p1 multi IFR).
So the options for flying the multi time are either hiring a twin in the US, or getting pilot assistant work in the UK and flying dead legs/empty sectors (both these options I am currently looking at).
Mercenary Pilot: Why do you consider the 700/40 multi unrealistic? I think the requirement is very sensible.

[buzzc152]

Most "aerial work" on a twin would be day VFR (ie: survey or para dropping, therefore wouldn't meet the requirements for 40 p1 multi IFR).

Not true. I've done aerial survey in MEP's for the better part of 2 years and have logged plenty of IFR hours all over Europe. Very difficult work sometimes, but good fun.

[Life's a Beech]

JAR-OPS is does not specify 700 hours. That is an error in LASORs! It is a figure for flying single-crew in multi-crew aircraft certificated for single crew operations. It is also incorporated in many companies' ops manuals, making it mandatory for those operations.

I believe you can operate single-engine under IFR in the UK, just not in IMC or at night. This is such a restriction that single-engine operations are not viable under an AOC.

Portsharbourflyer

Don't get confused between VFR/IFR and VMC/IMC. While most aerial work is indeed in VMC, due to airspace restrictions often has to be flown under IFR, at least in the UK. VFR is not allowed in class A airspace, and special VFR clearance is not given except in Jersey and Heathrow zones.

[5 RINGS]

Full information can be found in JAR-OPS 1.960

As for the requirements applied to Captains with a CPL operating a multi engined aircraft under IFR in commercial air service, the minimum is indeed 700Hrs, reduced to 500Hrs for VFR ops.

Latest version of JAR-OPS1 can be found on www.jaa.nl

Happy flying!

5 Rings

[portsharbourflyer]

L a B and Buzz,

Yes I stand corrected and as you say you can fly IFR in VMC. Also I would assume positioning flights to a survey location may also be flown IFR even if the survey itself is conducted VFR in VMC.

Yes day VFR public transport is allowed in single engine aircraft, however operating public transport service in day VFR only is very limiting in the UK.

[apruneuk]

Like Life's a Beech, this is what I do for a living. The Jar Ops 700 hour requirement is for Commanders of aircraft that would normally require a type rating but that have been certified for single crew ops.

For commercial single pilot light multi IFR you must have a CPL/IR and at least 50 hours multi IFR of which at least 10 must be P1. If you read Jar ops carefully you will understand. This has also been confirmed by our CAA AOC inspector.

Now to the real world...All commercial operators work to the rules laid down in their own particular Operations Manual. Some of these prefer to adopt (quite rightly, in my opinion) the more restrictive pre-entry requirements of 700 hours, 40 PI multi IFR in order to minimise the amount of training that would be required to get a new pilot on line. At my company a new pilot would be given max 3 hours' practice on the aircraft before having an OPC (IR Exam). This would be followed by 20 sectors of line training before being sent off alone across Europe alone in all weathers and mostly at night.

Air Taxi/Charter in light twins is a small industry in the UK. Unless you have plenty of unusual flying in your logbook, a lot of actual IFR and some decent contacts you would stand more chance of landing a sponsored position with BA than succeeding via this route.

[VFE]

Minimum of 700 hrs P1 is not much when you consider just how tough the work can be. Apruneuk hints at the ordeal of single pilot IFR, at night, over europe and in ****e WX but some real accounts would make for interesting reading because it's certainly not something (although eligible for) I'd ever contemplate doing taa!

VFE.

[Fair_Weather_Flyer]

Centreline and Ravenair both have dispensations from the CAA to employ 400hr pilots but they stil require the multi engine IFR time and all the other tricky details. There are others such as Dragonfly and Woodgate that operate single crew aircraft as multi-crew under their AOC's, so there may be FO'ing opportunities for low houred pilots. Also much of the work conducted by charter operators is contract work i.e. regular freight runs carrying bank cheques between X and Y, not charters all over the place.

Air Taxi/Charter in light twins is a small industry in the UK. Unless you have plenty of unusual flying in your logbook, a lot of actual IFR and some decent contacts you would stand more chance of landing a sponsored position with BA than succeeding via this route.

It is a small industry sector but if you have the hours and are capable of passing the base check with just an hour or so practice, the work is there. Not that many aircraft or operators, but very few pilots with the hours chasing the jobs and people moving on fast to airlines........But plenty of cowboy operators out there (see Unique Air thread in biz jets) so be very careful.

[badboy raggamuffin]

so does anybody have some accounts of hairy air taxi flights? would be interesting to hear. I can imagine that flying a seneca etc at night, on ur own, in the middle of a load of bad weather takes some balls, I can see why they don't let anyone do it.

[Finals19]

850 hours PA31 on the west coast of Canada. Typical MEA's 11-15,000ft, designated mountainous region...lets see now...

- severe icing - unforecast as such - seeing the airspeed bleed back past 130kts when our crz IAS was 170. Unable to descend due to restrictive MOCA's, but descending anyway with power on cuz' staying up there at cont 40" MP is gonna cook the engines.....

- nasty, mountain valley LOC/DME approaches. Tailwinds all the way down the approach, GS often over 200kts until a couple of hundred off the MDA resulting in butt clenching rates of descent. Add a bit of moderate ice with boots blow like a pre-historic whore (i.e. they don't) and a nice sharp angle of attack and it was a whole bundle of fun.

- knowing, that despite what the POH says, if you lose an engine at that altitude and that weight, you ain't gonna maintain altitude, let alone make the missed approach climb gradient!

- actually losing an engine - oil leak on the left side in flight, next thing flames licking out of the inspection panel as the leak worsened and spewed all over the turbo charger. Happy days!

- Gear not down and locked. Pumping it down with no nosewheel locked indication and then trying to grease her on and hold her off...no pressure there then! (in more ways than one!)

- no wx radar. Regularly in the summer trying to avoid/spot build ups, flying into embedded stuff and then watching as the world around you goes black...

Yup, Air Taxi is a real ball..........you better have some big ones too! :ok:

[Mercenary Pilot]

It takes balls to say "I'm not going, the Wx is too ****". ;)

(Of course that comment is not aimed at the very professional charter companies mentioned in this thread whom I'm sure do not put undue pressure on their pilots to fly in unsuitable conditions) :=

[shaun ryder]

It is not for the feint hearted, some of the guys I worked with never truly got used to their job. You have to be on the ball to say the least, an accident is a very real possibility if you dont follow the rules and exercise good airmanship. Be prepared, rehearsing an engine failure drill just once every 6 months would be foolhardy, for example, probably all the aircraft you fly will be significantly older than you! As said above, NO is usually not a good answer when there is a four grand job on the phone, you better be able to back up your decision with the weather reports that rattled your sphincter and influenced your decision not to fly! Make sure you know where the alternate air is and hope that the de-ice system does'nt look like a fifty year old inner tube thats been repaired a hundred times!! Air charter is not for everyone, but its an invaluable tool for progressing up the aviation ladder. Sometimes I wish I was back in the hotseat, great days!

[portsharbourflyer]

Further to the comments that air taxi work is hard to find; I have seen several adverts in the last six months for air taxi jobs, several also stating they would consider for interview anyone with the minimum for single pilot ops requirements (700 tt 40 p1 multi IFR as opposed). Further to this I have the chance to do some part time safety pilot work this winter for an air taxi firm.
I acknowledge the comments that it is not easy work, but if forking out for 40 hours of p1 multi time could give me the chance of getting interview for an air taxi job ,then I would happily do so in order to avoid spending any more time as an instructor. Besides at some point you have to attempt something with minimal experience to gain experience otherwise you would never progress.

Consider the alternatives for most instructors at the 700 hour mark,
1) Continue instructing only gaining single engine hours in hope of gaining an airline interview (which 8 out of 10 times your still paying for the rating)
2) Paying for a type rating rating
3) Heading to the states for 40 hours of multi time in order to stand a chance of getting considered for an air taxi job.

I think 3 is the best of those three options so regardless of the horror stories.

Besides can it really be any less scary than some of the students we instructors have to fly with?

[On speed on profile]

It takes balls to say "I'm not going, the Wx is too ****"

Air Taxi work is great to look back on but I dont think I would want to go there again. It really is demanding flying!

I have two schools of thought for those out there trying to get into it:

1. If your airmanship is a bit below average, think twice!

2. If you dont have at least 700 hours with 40 P1 Multi IFR, think twice.

Without these two things, you will struggle when your chips are down! It is not an easy job.

[shaun ryder]

Besides can it really be any less scary than some of the students we instructors have to fly with?

Unless you are teaching them in the winter, flying in driving rain and at night over the Irish sea for example.... No comparison!

[Flying Farmer]

Instructing is a walk in the park compared to single pilot IFR work.

My take on it, having flown for more than 2 years as a second pilot, on PA31s and C404s, then progressing to the left hand seat with the experience gained.

With the bare minimum of 700 hours and just single engine piston time behind you, I think the real day to day flying in piston twins will at some stage scare you witless. Remember you are flying aircraft of some age, limited performance OEI and usually fairly close to MAUW. Usually no weather radar fitted either!!

The major problem I gather from folks who actually hire is that guys with the bare minimum of hours usually struggle with the base check, especially on types such as the Chieftain and the C404. These aircraft are quite a step up from twin trainers most will have flown.

I was lucky to have spent a considerable time in the right seat with very proficient high hours guys most who were line trainers as well. A really good place to learn the trade if any of you can get some second/ safety pilot work and it builds your multi time if you get positioning sectors. :ok:

[Life's a Beech]

5 Rings

I back up apruneuk on that, as does our ops inspector. Check out appendix 2 to JAR OPS 1.940, page 1-N-9. You have made the same error as the people who wrote LASORS (the wording is very poor).

You will find that the operator not only still wants the hours specified in 1.960, but that it is often written into their ops manual making them mandatory. As has been discussed here, it is a difficult job (although after a few months the jobs that go right are quite straightforward).

However there is some flexibility, possibily dependent on the CAA ops inspector. Pilots who don't have the exact hours specified in 1.960, although not ideal, might still be taken on with extra training requirements and restrictions on instrument approaches. We have looked at a pilot for example with no real P1 time in MEP but with IFR commercial time in a single turbine.

[Life's a Beech]

As for experiences of flights in the light charter market - how about a gear problem on climbout (doesn't come up, then won't lock down as I cycle it). Have to carry on, with a liver on board for transplant. Manage to get most of the gear up, but clearly something still dangling, so I spend 3 hours at gear limiting speed, expecting to crash at the end of the flight!

We do miss the weather radar. Have only been hit by lightning once, but been through a good few storms and squalls - and squalls can be worse than storms. Bounced my line trainer off the ceiling on one (he's an airline pilot, so loosens his lapstrap. I used to fly aeros, so always keep mine tight!).

Have been lucky with my engine failures - one on final, the other other just after landing (hard to taxy on one!). Watch out for low-hour engines. The first 50 hours after rebuild are the highest risk.

[apruneuk]

In my opinion, sadly, the current commercial flight training system in Europe assumes that new pilots only want to fly airliners and is totally geared to achieving this aim.

The IR exam for many is seen merely as a box to tick before undertaking a type rating course; indeed, many of the instructors and some of the examiners have never actually flown single pilot IFR in anger other than on one of half a dozen pre-rehearsed routes when a student has badly messed up. Indeed, most successful students will never again fly single pilot multi IFR again, effectively shutting that door with 20 hours TT on an actual aircraft!

To make matters worse, many commercial schools now use aircraft such as the Diamond Twinstar for their IR training. Whilst this makes perfect sense for progression to a modern multi-crew flight deck, it is of little help when the newly qualified pilot is faced with a 1970s Navajo that has changed little (apart from the dents) since it was built.

If a newly-qualified Wannabe wants a job in this industry the best way in would be to offer your services to a charter company as a pilot's assistant and learn the ropes (unpaid, of course!) that way. It is certainly not for everyone but it is an extremely fulfilling occupation for those who learn to love it.

PS

The pay still stinks as most employers still believe (wrongly) that it is a stepping stone for an hours builder to a jet job. What they are just starting to realise is that you can get a jet job with 200 hours TT so why bother to hours build? The instruction industry is slowly waking up to the same fact and I believe that pay and conditions will soon have to rival airlines or the supply of pilots in this sector will soon dry up.

[VFE]

Very interesting thread this.

Can anyone shed some light on the money beingpaid for this type of work? I am usually too polite to ask people face to face!

VFE.

[Life's a Beech]

I have always earned more in this job than the pilot I replaced has at the same time in the turbo-prop operation he went on to. He felt he should have stayed here, and would come back but for the bond!

[Finals19]

1. If your airmanship is a bit below average, think twice!


Amen to that! Air Taxi = the best ever course you could take in decision making under pressure. You won't make a wrong decision twice! :ok:

[portsharbourflyer]

Interesting comments.

So to all you seasoned ait taxi pilots, I have done some research on hour building in the states and although there are some cheap deals available on the dutchess; it sounds as though hour building on seneca is going to be much better prep for a chieftain (having flown both the seneca and the dutchess, the dutchess is a pussy cat to fly). However 40 hours of twin hour building in the US is going to still cost about £6000 (for a seneca) as said there are cheaper deals on lighter twins (dutchess or seminole).

However a JAA approved citation rating in the US could be done for about £9000, so there isn't much in it between the two options.
So for all those that have previous air taxi experience, knowing what you know which of these two options would really be best for an instructor at the 700 hour mark.

Financially I couldn't comtemplate another season full time instructing, but a six month contract in my previous career would easily raise the cash for the multi time or type rating.

[Fair_Weather_Flyer]

Can anyone shed some light on the money beingpaid for this type of work? I am usually too polite to ask people face to face!

Bottom end of the game is about 16-18k for piston twins. Top end? One operator was paying 28k with HOTAC thrown in for a scheduled five days a week run in a PA31. Experience required was 1000hrs. Often salaried work is contract work such as flying cheques around. Some outfits pay by the day. About £150 per day is about right for most.....and if you don't get called, you don't get paid. Bigger stuff such as Cheyennes and King Airs pays around 35-40k but will need 1500hrs +.

Citation vs twin time building? The twin time + 700hrs tt will get you a shot at the base check somewhere for sure. But the Citation job would surely be more desirable (if you could get it).

[buzzc152]

Off topic I know, but Flying Farmer......... woud you agree the C404 is about the best twin piston around and whips the pants off the Chiefton by miles ?

Back to the thread............

[Flying Farmer]

Hi Buzz
I very much enjoyed flying the 404 it had a quiet cabin, good performance when both ran! a logical cockpit layout, reasonable avionics and flew like a mini airliner. The only real issue was engine handling in the descent from altitude, the Continentals fitted need to be treated with kid gloves with regard to shock cooling.
The drawbacks in my opinion. When heavy, we often flew with 7 pax and 2 crew, one engine inop figures were less than encouraging, but the Chieftain was no better. In icing conditions the 404 was not great, the Chieftain seemed able to cope with moderate icing conditions better.
I liked both aircraft, both were a joy to fly. In my humble opinion I thought the Chieftain was the better workhorse.

[Token Bird]

Assuming one has the required hours and the, er, balls, has anybody got any more names to add to the list of companies already discussed in this thread. I've had it with instructing. My ultimate aim is aid work. Single-pilot IFR seems a sensible way to go to prepare me for that,

TB

[Life's a Beech]

Flying Farmer

That's all very well for SLF, but the door is lousy. A Seneca is better, at least you can get a pallet in. The 404 can fit 2, has a better payload and fantastic range. Never flown the Chieftain, but it whips the Navajo!