Has anyone got details of the KL 744 return out of LAX- nose gear stuck down - fuel dump- standard return- no silly near-death newspaper stories yet?

whoops - push-back nose gear pin left in perhaps!!

Eh? The pin stops the lefty/righty. Not the upy/downy.
Back to the drawing board! :}

better down than up i say.

better down than up i say.

Not what my wife says....:{

Eh? The pin stops the lefty/righty. Not the upy/downy.
Back to the drawing board!

In 20 years on the job I have (unfortunately) seen/heard of 3 instances of nose gear down lock pins left in place for dispatch, thankfully not involving myself.:eek:

On all occaisons only nuisance value to the crew and pax alike for the ATB (no fuel dumps or over MLW conditions) but a thorough bullocking (in context of course) for the gingerbeer involved along with the ensuing embarassment. I imagine the tech crew had a fire side chat with the boss for missing it as well on their walkaround inspection.

However being a 747 it is "possible" to miss a fitted nose gear down lock pin due to its location along with some deft alignment of the holes in the cheese.

The high fuel uplift for sector adds to the drama.

Only speculating of course.:ok:

50 tons of Jet A in the ocean...
Who forgot the pin...?
Oh yes, right, no more F/E on your planes...
xxx
I dont recommend you eat any fresh seafood tonight, in Santa Monica, might not taste too good.
However, this takes care of any mosquito problems around Venice Beach...
Dank U wel, KLM...
xxx
:)
Happy contrails

The 'uppy-downy' pin is also known as the nose-gear locking pin - it should have a long streamer attached. The 'lefty-righty' pin is the nose-gear steering pin and has a shorter streamer. It is not unusual to see all pins still inserted during the pilot's walk-around check, especially if the a/c has just been towed onto stand. It should be part of the pre-start checks to confirm with the ground personnel that all gear pins have been removed and steering pin inserted. It is not the first time this has happened and will not be the last time - but at least it is safe! By the way, fuel jettison for events like this is an option, depending on the airlines' SOP's and the Commanders' decision.
Of course, it could be due to an engineering defect in the system.

For what it’s worth.
In my loco, installing the 'uppy-downy' pin is a separate techlog entry. Works
pretty well I guess as we haven’t had the embarrassing situation ever since.

Lorel

It was out of SFO not LAX and it dumped fuel over land in the Modesto area. Some pictures on another forum.......

http://www.airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/3523366/

50 tons !! :}
Dumped due to NLG Down .

2 Pilot crew or 2 Autopilot crew? :rolleyes:

Apart from some noise in cockpit,
slower cruise speed (to be offset by dump fuel time)
and small range differance due to NLG (only NLG down),:sad:

why not continue to next suitable airport within the range of those 50 tons ?

Do not tell me please , "Safety !!!" , ;)
or
"Ah we do not have that it in check lists". :E

Dear Green Guard /
xxx
In non-emergency situations, with airlines, the way decisions are made, are not up to the captain, but the operations manager. or whoever is on duty for that position... In the case of KLM, after takeoff, and NLG not retracting, the captain probably advised Amsterdam about the situation and the options available... Amsterdam's decision was "go back" and land...
xxx
If we have any non-emergency problems, we call the operations office in Buenos Aires, and get "the monkey" on their back... Their decision, their responsibility. If I would take a decision, maybe someone in Argentina would tell me (1) why did you not proceed instead of going back...? - or... (2) why did you not call us and ask us before taking your decision...?
xxx
:)
Happy contrails

When I worked as a ramp rat many moons ago at CYYZ, it was always mandatory, after the push, tug disconnect, that the aircraft marshaller holds the aircraft, until all the equipment is clear. Once all equipment/staff are clear, the steering disconnect pin is shown to the crew, who would acknowledge it with a wave.

The only time I saw a gear lock pin in place was in the hanger. Never on stand.

We turned up at a 747-200 to fly HKG-KWI, swarms of engineers around aircraft changing mainwheel tyre in the dark. Work complete, F/E does walkaround (in the dark), off we go- one main leg won't retract (going out through the gap). Much raising/lowering- all tricks, no budging. Landed back after 1 hour, no jettison. The engineers had put a piece of wire coathanger in the maingear lock which the F/E just did not see 12' above ground, buried in undercarriage bay in the dark, with bright lights all around the airport. Result, one severely chastised F/E within inches of his job and well shouted at, with books thrown at head. Wrong of the ground engineers, but ultimately undeniable that F/E was responsible. Very sad, but it happens.

As for continuing to next convenient destination on way home, not on. The gear and doors being down means noise, discomfort, and no real way of knowing fuel requirement, fuel useage etc.- FMS does not compute gear down cruise. Also, will staff be available at next stop? They will probably have gone home and had a drink. It's actually cheaper and easier to land back, sort the problem out at your airlines terminal than try and make next stop, wherever that may be.

Its a requirement to fit the nose gear down lock pin (as well as the steering bypass pin) for towing purposes.
Not in my company!

not stuck nose gear but "bodygeartilt" message was supposedly the start of problems, any 744 drivers to explain?

From the Boeing 747-400 non-normal QRH for 'Gear tilt'
Do not retract landing gear
Observe gear extended limit speed (320/.82M)
Do not use FMC fuel predictions with gear extended.
This is makes more sense than an a/c departing with a nose-gear locking pin still in place and furthermore justifies the need to divert back to an airport capable of handling a serious delay (with passengers) and having good maintenance facilities available.

Betcha twas a body landing gear tilt actuator attach bolt snapped....

Offers?

On a B747 400 if you get a "body gear tilt" msg the gear will not move whatever you do!! I betit was just a prox switch fault

I'll take your offer ASFKAP, and raise you twenty.
My money's on the bolt snapped first causing damage to prox sensors when the truck over-rotated after airborne. Prox sensor would then never come into "near".

Whatever it was, it took some time to fix; somebody on airliners.net posted this:
The aircraft, of of KLM's B744 full passenger versions, registered PH-BFG, took off from SFO and somewhere around Sacramento the crew decided to turn back to SFO because the nosewheel wouldn't retract. The aircraft dumped fuel and landed safely at SFO. The flight was then delayed for 25 hours and on Monday, two KLM B744s will be taking off from SFO within an hour, yesterday's PH-BFG and Monday's KL606, likely to be operated by PH-BFB (subject to change).

Errrr we ARE talking about the NOSE gear here, right? :confused:

Re fuel dumping, seafood issues, etc: I was always under the impression that jet fuel evaporated fairly quickly when dumped to the point where it was unlikely to cause pollution on land or sea (not sure about the atmosphere). Any comments re this?
Cheers
dghob

dghob /
xxx
You are correct, that is what I heard too, or probably read somewhere...
However, if you dump at low level, in a holding pattern, I remember being recommended to do it with a slight climb (200 fpm?), if you do 1 minute legs, so as to not come back into your own "evaporated" fuel... Generally, ATC tells you where to go to do your dirty stuff... I cannot recall where it would be for SFO, probably overwater.
xxx
:)
Happy contrails

Perhaps another thing they considered in the dump/no-dump decision was being unable to raise the entire landing gear in the event of the proverbial engine failure during an overweight overshoot.
Performance-wise, that might be untested and therefore undocumented, leaving them wondering if it could climb away with the extra drag.
So: heavy, engine-out go-around, unable to retract all the landing gear....
Except for simulating it at altitude to see if it could, that might weigh heavily( oops, a pun) on their decision to dump.