Can you deploy ground spoilers manually?

[Clandestino]

Reading the Congonhas accident thread, I've seen that quite a lot of posters criticize Airbus for not giving the pilot the capability to manually select the ground spoilers and then go on to bash its "complex spoiler logic". Being quite inexperienced (I've only flown ATR and A320) I've assumed that arming the ground spoilers and letting WOW to decide when to deploy them is industrywide standard nowadays. Also not having manual override seemed normal to me.

So whatewer your airplane might be, if it has ground spoilers, please tell me wheteher you have possibility to fire them no-matter-what.

Thank you in advance for your answers.

[Alpine Flyer]

Fokker 70/100: "Manual" ground spoiler extension is done by pulling both reverst thrust levers to at least idle reverse. This is done on any landing as a backup if the "normal" extension of armed spoilers triggered by wheel spin-up doesn't work.

Dash 7/8-100/8-400: spoilers are extended with thrust levers in idle and weight on wheels. Rather simple logic but no way to "force" extension if something is amiss (e.g. no WOW).

[411A]

L1011...no matter what, spoilers are manually selectable, on ground or airbourne.
Same for the B707.
Going further, the L1011 has auto-spoilers after landing (strut compression) and need not be manually armed, arming is automatic.
And, of course, the TriStar has DLC, direct lift control, wherein when landing flaps are selected, the (some) spoilers extend to a null position, and modulate with control column input in pitch.
A superbly accurate system, that keeps the deck angle on final rock solid, at about 7.5 degrees.
In flying the aeroplane for 28 years, never has this system failed to operate as advertised.
With the TriStar, the quality went in before the name went on.
Systems are fail operational in all respects.
Having said this, some might feel that Lockheed went just a bit overboard with systems redundancy, but when you are down and dirty in the mist on landing, the Lockheed three-holer will find the runway every time, with its four channels of fail operational autopilot system.
It must be seen and flown to be believed....it is that good.

[FE Hoppy]

411A Do you get paid by LM every time you mention the 3* ?
It was fantastic but its old and heavy and burns too much fuel and you can't get spares and probably makes too much noise these days.

I loved it too but for what it was not what it is now.

You need to sit infront of a brand new EFIS like the E-Jets to see how much things have progressed.

[747dieseldude]

On 74s, you can extend manually, but if no WOW it will be only to the flight detent.

[411A]

411A Do you get paid by LM every time you mention the 3* ?

Ah, well actually no, but what a splendid idea.

Oddly enough, I was talking to a Boeing avionics engineer just four days ago who recently retired, and he is quite familiar with the TriStar, and his exact words were...'TriStar was very complicated, but worked really well, and what surprised me was the fact that it was so reliable.'
His words, not mine.

Now, having landed the beast thousands of times, never once did the autospoilers fail to extend properly.
Rather important, it seems to me.
Surprisingly enough, TriStars are being reactivated now, as there is a shortage of wide body lift, that will persist for a year or two....just long enough for yours truly to retire in style.:)

[the_hawk]

'TriStar was very complicated, but worked really well, and what surprised me was the fact that it was so reliable.'

that made me look at ASN statistics for the 3* to find that there are (only) 3 accidents with fatalities and all of them are (in)famous in aviation accident history, while none of them has the aircraft as main contributing factor:

the Eastern Everglades "light bulb" accident
the Saudi Arabian inflight fire, successful return but no evacuation @Riyadh
the Delta thunderstorm / windshear accident @DFW


PS: sry for thread drift, delete as appropriate :uhoh:

[hetfield]

On A300, yes you partly can (speed brake function).

[haughtney1]

757/767 also......manual or auto.

99.5% reliable when in auto:ok:

[Mad (Flt) Scientist]

On Canadair RJs you can manually arm or disarm the GLD function if the automatic arming function isn't working, but you can't force a manual deployment of the GS themselves. (arming is a prerequisite for deployment, but arming alone wont force deployment)

You do, I believe, still have direct control of the flight spoilers on-ground if the GLD function doesn't work, but the GS themselves won't deploy. So you'll effectively get partial GLD in that case.

[lefthanddownabit]

Reading the Congonhas accident thread, I've seen that quite a lot of posters criticize Airbus for not giving the pilot the capability to manually select the ground spoilers and then go on to bash its "complex spoiler logic".

On the A320 there is nothing to stop the crew operating the speedbrake manually if auto deploy doesn't work.

It would require manually disarming the ground spoilers (pushing the lever down) then pulling the lever back.

[md-100]

on the MD80 both manually an auto, same lever, the auto receive signal from WOW an in case WOW fail, from nose gear strut compression, as some said, more than 95% reliable.. and I guess Airbus is the same.. we have to see the final complete report to know what really happened

[Mad (Flt) Scientist]

On the A320 there is nothing to stop the crew operating the speedbrake manually if auto deploy doesn't work.

It would require manually disarming the ground spoilers (pushing the lever down) then pulling the lever back.

Is speedbrake available in that landing/full config?

[lefthanddownabit]

Is speedbrake available in that landing/full config?
I thought it was, on the ground, but having just looked at the manual I'm not so sure.

It worked in the sim, but a sim is only as good as it's programming.

[mach 84]

on the 777 you can arm them before landing, which is the standard operating procedure, you can deploy them manually or pull the reverse thrust levers after landing, which also deploys them. no problems for me for the last 10 years so i would consider this as reliable too! :ok:

[hetfield]

In my career, I have never met such a uncertainty within pilots, and my own I must admit, concerning system behaviors like on 320/340.

It's very complex and depends on modifications done/not done, pin-programming done/not done, 320 yes 321 no and vice versa.

Gulp, happy to be back on A300.

[ICT_SLB]

CRJ - Autodeployment after arming of all spoilers (Ground & Flight/Multifunction [Outers]) is by any two out of WonW/Wheel Spin-Up/Rad Alt< 5ft. If not armed in landing configuration, an EICAS Caution "GLS NOT ARMED" will be set. Manual by overide switch if required.

[Semaphore Sam]

Mr Hawk, a correction:
"that made me look at ASN statistics for the 3* to find that there are (only) 3 accidents with fatalities and all of them are (in)famous in aviation accident history, while none of them has the aircraft as main contributing factor:
* the Eastern Everglades "light bulb" accident
* the Saudi Arabian inflight fire, successful return but no evacuation @Riyadh
* the Delta thunderstorm / windshear accident @DFW"
There was one (or 2, if Sri Lanka bombing counts) other incident, as Mr. 411A will confirm. A Saudia Tri-Star, over the Persian/Arabian (your choice) Gulf, had a left landing gear tire explode; two Pakistani children went out the resulting hole. The aircraft landed, with hydraulic/brake issues, at the very long runway at Doha. The very strange story is, that either one, or two, of these kids were supposedly found alive floating in the sea. A few days later I (then on the 737-200) visited Doha, and saw the huge hole torn in the floor on the left side of that aircraft. It was surprising that only two people were sucked out; the hole was big! Can anyone confirm the story of the survival of those 2 kids? Just for the record...not 3, but 4 fatal incidents (in addition to the bombing in Sri Lanka, which would make 5). Sam

[hetfield]

From the Congonhas thread

On the apparently confusing subject of whether the ground spoilers would have deployed had the speedbrake lever been extend, I believe the explanation is as follows: Per the FCOMs for the aircraft I have flown Ground Spoilers are only ever automatically actuated through the arming conditions and thrust lever positions as documented in earlier posts. Speedbrakes (or Flight Spoilers if you prefer) are another matter. These, which are physically the same control surfaces (3 of 5 anyway), can be actuated manually through the extension of the Speedbrake lever. On the A320's I flew this function was inhibited in CONF FULL (but that was 10 years ago). However, more recently flying A330s and A340s for several operators I have discovered that different aircraft of the same model have different inhibitions in this regard. It depends on the particular modification status of the aircraft which in this case is dictated by the flight control computer standard (for the A320, the SEC) installed. Quite likely all A320's are not the same in this respect either and hence the differing opinions from pilots flying models with different SEC standards installed.

[glhcarl]

"Can anyone confirm the story of the survival of those 2 kids? Just for the record...not 3, but 4 fatal incidents (in addition to the bombing in Sri Lanka, which would make 5."

The two children were the only two fatalities, a rim bead on a MLG wheel failed and the shrapnel opened a 3' by 5' hole on the MLG pressure deck. The MLG door blew open, but the gear remained retracted. Without getting to graphic the children had pass through the retracted landing gear. The accident occured at 29,000 feet so the chances of the story of a child being found alive are sadly untrue.

The bomb in the UL aircraft while counting as a hall loss, can hardly be classed a an accident. Just like the LTU fire in Dusseldorf and the TWA fire in Boston, hull losses but not reportable acidents.

[411A]

I also have it on quite good authority that the said SV incident was caused by the fitment of a light weight wheel assembly, not the heavier one that was required on the -200.
A search of spares turned up two more, and a fleet wide inspection assured no more light weight wheels were installed.
Heads rolled, you can be sure...although not just after Friday prayers.
In addition, the aeroplane was landed in Doha by the First Officer, as only his column was active with only hydraulic system D remaining serviceable.
I flew with him later on...a very good pilot...in fact, most of them were.
Well trained.

[glhcarl]

411A, The problem was not light weight wheels on heavy weight aircraft, but thin beads on the heavy weight rims. There was an AD to inspect all the rims and remove the rims with the thin beads, and eddy current test all the other rims to insure none were cracked.

[downsouth]

Hi guys, sorry to get back to the main subject (the manual extension of the ground spoilers) well, as far as I know, on the A320 with Flaps full the speed breaks are inhibited. On the ground, the deployment of the spoilers is automatic with the WOW if armed before or upon selections of thrust reverse if not armed. I don't think there is a way to manully extend them.

[glhcarl]

411A, Could you please explain your statement: "In addation, the aeroplane was landed in Doha by the first officer, as only his column was active with only hydraulic system D remaining serviceable".

I don't understand this statement as the pilots and first officers columns are connected in both pitch and roll and if the disconnects were not pulled full control was available from either column, even with only one hydraulic system operative.

[Clandestino]

Thank you gentlemen for your replies, especially IGh. I don't mind a bit of thread drift but for the benefit of the future contributors, I'd like to define ground spoilers as full extension of all installed spoilers, intended to significantly reduce lift and increase drag upon touchdown. There's quite a difference between speedbrake and ground spoiler, you know.

Also if you bothered to read my profile or, at the very least, first post, you would see that I'm A320 typerated and therefore I've found some comments here regarding Airbus system amusing, to say the least.

[411A]

I don't understand this statement as the pilots and first officers columns are connected in both pitch and roll and if the disconnects were not pulled full control was available from either column, even with only one hydraulic system operative.

Yes, if disconnects were not pulled, this would certainly be correct.
However, the story I was told was that the Captain's column was not responsive, so both pitch and roll disconnects were activated.
In addition, if I recall correctly, the aeroplane was landed with only one half of system D quantity remaining.

Lockheed systems redundancy paid off, big time.

[galaxy flyer]

411A

At EAStern, I was told L1011's were landed something like 30 times on the fourth hyd system and there were a number of points where the fourth system would "save the day". Any comments.

GF

[vapilot2004]

Type.........Avail - Protections

DC-9..........Yes with mechanical link to control valves :ok:
MD-80........Yes
MD-11........Yes
732............Yes - Hydraulic bypass valve linked to RM LDG gear
737NG........Yes - Hydraulic bypass valve linked to right main LDG gear
727............Yes - Mechanical link from gear to ground spoiler lockout valve
742............Yes - On wheel spin up and weight on wheels (via ground safety relay)

[glhcarl]

galaxy flier,

Having worked on the L-1011 for over thirty two years and twenty of those years being in the in the landing gear, flight control, hydraulic group of L-1011 Customer Support. I know of only one occurance were three hydraulic systems were lost. That was Eastern N309EA, when the No. 2 engine fan seperated shortly after takeoff from EWR, 22 Sept 1981. The routing of the hydraulic line was such that the only place where all four systems are near each other is in the aft body, for powering the horizontal stabilizer. While there may have been more I have forgot them or they were not reported to Lockheed.

[Max Angle]

After nearly 10 years of Airbus flying I have never had the ground spoilers fail to deploy BUT if they don't (soft touchdown or aquaplaning I suppose might do it) there is no way to deploy them manually. In fact on most jet transports you can't deploy the ground spoilers manually, you can deploy the speedbrakes (normally the same panels but only using 2-3 a side) manually which then puts some weight on the wheels and pops up the rest of panels to give full ground spoilers. The problem on the 'bus is that speedbrakes are inhibited with flap full (3 or full on 321) which means that you can't get them out on the ground after landing. Airbus should change the logic ASAP in my opinion, however it only helps if you notice that they have not come out in the first place, on the Airbus the only clue is the little arrows on the lower ECAM gear page rather than a "thunk" as the handle moves.

[hetfield]

After nearly 10 years of Airbus flying I have never had the ground spoilers fail to deploy BUT if they don't (soft touchdown or aquaplaning I suppose might do it) there is no way to deploy them manually.

On my Airbus, it's possible (flight spoilers 5 out of 7).;)

[tristar 500]

glhcarl
Yu are correct about the hyd systems for the horizontal stab, however the Tristar was fitted with shut off valves (unlike the DC10 which didn`t have them) so I think it unlikely that all the hyde systems were lost

411A
How luck you are still being being associated with one of the best aircraft ever.

[ballyboley]

Sorry for the thread drift, but i'm very interested to hear how 411A is still associated with the 1011. I too am a bit passionate about these "old girls" and although they're not so efficient nowadays I'd take one over a scarebus anyday.

I made my decision to become a pilot on the jumpseat of an Air-Transat 1011 about 10 years ago so I love to hear it being mentioned again. I've been trying in vain to find a way to get a trip on one - any ideas?

Maybe this should be moved to a new thread somewhere to not take away from the current thread!
On that note, what happens if the spoiler lever is moved right back past the flight detent in flight? Will all a/c allow this to happen in the air or is it limited to flight spoiler panels only until WOW?

Thanks

[Max Angle]

On my Airbus, it's possible (flight spoilers 5 out of 7).Sorry, should have said 10 years of FBW Airbus flying, I guess you are referrring to a "proper" aircraft rather than flying computer type.

[hetfield]

A300.....

;)