Strange zone transit

[modelman]

Flew to IOW today with Mrs MM,lovely day,great flights.good food etc.
Out bound,Brize waved me through,requesting me to fly 3000' on their QFE-no problem
On return leg ( an exact reciprocal of the outbound one).requested a zone transit through Brize's Class D CTA.Reply was 'transit approved but remain clear of CAS'. Eh? They were really busy so instead of requesting clarification (and making a tit of myself), I climbed above their 3500' limit.

Did they mean keep clear of their ATZ or maybe the Class A at FL55 above?

What do you think?

MM

[Gertrude the Wombat]

Phone them up and ask them? - and let us know the answer!

(On Sunday I was receiving a RIS from Brize and was pretty much the only one on frequency for a lot of the time, which surprised me - first time I'd talked to them, and I'd expected them to be much busier than that.)

[modelman]

Maybe with all the cutbacks,that part of the RAF is shut on Sundays;)

[Humaround]

This is quite common, isn't it? It's certainly happened to me a few times - you ask for transit, and they give it to you subject to you not actually entering their CAS, neatly avoiding the issue...

It's fine if you're already around the 3500' mark but annoying if you're bimbling along at 1800 hoping to be waved through...

BTW the Class A is at FL65 isn't it, (south of Brize) or is my chart out of date?

:hmm:

[Spruit]

Isn't CAS in military terms "Close Air Support"?

If not I'm interested in thier meaning with "Stay clear of the CAS"

Spru!

[david viewing]

Hopefully they mean the ATZ because I transited overhead the field at 3000 on a very similar clearance recently and didn't query it since the routeing and level clearly entered the zone which I proceeded to do.

[Anonystude]

David (et al):

I'd say CAP 419 would be fairly clear on the matter.

Unless you've been cleared to cross controlled airspace, you'd be entering CAS without a clearance. Approval to 'transit' would, to me (and on searching through CAP 419, I find nothing to contradict me) merely mean approval to fly through the overhead -- remaining clear of controlled airspace.

Despite not having JSP552 in front of me I'm pretty sure it's the same.

Of course, the sensible thing would be to check with the controller: a transmission along the lines of 'confirm cleared to enter the class D' would soon remove doubt on both your parts.

I suspect that Brize are significantly less bothered about their ATZ than, say, Lakenheath, who fairly often issue MATZ crossings with the request to remain clear of the ATZ. Brize is home to large transport-type aircraft, flying much larger circuits rendering the protection of the ATZ largely, I suspect, null and void given the Class D CTR in which it resides.

Never assume: it makes an ASS out of U and ME...

[modelman]

Quote:It's fine if you're already around the 3500' mark but annoying if you're bimbling along at 1800 hoping to be waved through.

I called them nice and early to allow time to climb over their Class D.

Quote:Isn't CAS in military terms "Close Air Support"?
If not I'm interested in thier meaning with "Stay clear of the CAS

I wrote CAS as my abbreviation (a long word considering its meaning
:confused:),they did actually say 'controlled airspace'

Quote:Unless you've been cleared to cross controlled airspace, you'd be entering CAS without a clearance. Approval to 'transit' would, to me (and on searching through CAP 419, I find nothing to contradict me) merely mean approval to fly through the overhead -- remaining clear of controlled airspace.

As the airspace just above their Class D in not controlled,would a transit clearance be required anyway. ( would always talk to them of course)

Quote:Never assume: it makes an ASS out of U and ME...

I like that little ditty but I never assumed anything,just climbed over their Class D

Thanks everyone for your input,will try to make that call to Brize.

MM

[TotalBeginner]

"Remain clear of controlled airspace" would definately give me some cause for concern and I would certainly take it that they were referring to more than just the ATZ.

I must admit, to approve your request (a ZONE transit) subject to remaining clear of CAS does seem rather contradictory. And in my view, it's misunderstandings such as this that can contribute to infringements.

[High Wing Drifter]

I agree TB, it depends on which bit you hear (confirmation bias?) and how diligent you are with your readback or how diligent they are with your readback.

Definitely a case for an immediate request for confirmation.

[SQUAWKIDENT]

Am I missing something here?
If you climb ABOVE their ATZ then why ask for a "clearance"? What exactly are you requesting a clearance for if you don't intend to infringe their airspace?
Obviously it would be sensible to call them anyway to say "hello I'm here and overflying your zone..." but I don't understand how they can clear you through something which doesn't belong to them:hmm:

[modelman]

Quote:
'Am I missing something here?'

Yep.
I requested a transit when below 3500' hoping to be waved through (a la my outbound leg).Only climbed above after the 'remain clear of CAS bit'

MM

[SQUAWKIDENT]

Reply was 'transit approved but remain clear of CAS'.

Yes but their reply doesn't make sense if this is exactly what they said back to you.

transit: the act or fact of passing across or through

So basically they said yes come through but actually don't:ugh:

[Whirlybird]

If they really said 'transit approved but remain clear of CAS' that makes no sense whatsoever. I suspect the guy was busy and tired, and didn't actually mean that. But since you didn't ask, we'll never know.

[Chilli Monster]

A transit clearance has to be totally unambiguous to cover both the ATCO and the pilot - this wasn't.

You should really have queried it as it's the most nonsensical thing I've ever heard.

[modelman]

Spoke to Brize today.
Very helpful guy spent quite a bit of time talking to me-agreed the instruction I received was contradictory but he said there is some training going on right now.
As others have stated,he strongly advised always query something you do not understand,they are there to help to keep you safe-lesson learned:\
He said my action to climb over their class D was a reasonable thing to do but it would have been advisable to tell them when making a maneouvre near or in their airspace ( if needed to remain in VMC for instance) as they may have already advised someone else to do like wise.-another lesson learned:).
A very positive experience talking to this guy-you never stop learning.

MM

[tangovictor]

well done MM thanks for updating us. :D

[False Capture]

I think the Brize controllers do a great job, especially at the weekend when one controller is working both the Radar and the Zone frequencies.

Modelman, I don't think it's simply a case of the RAF cutting back. It's also a case of controllers being sent to Afghanistan and Iraq in support of the war against terror.