Temporary airway

[WorkingHard]

Ref: B1403/07
FIR: EGTT
Code: ARCA
Traffic: VFR IFR
Purpose: Immed. atten. aircraft operators PIB entry Operationally significant for flights
Scope: Enroute
Lower limit (FL): 050
Upper limit (FL): 200
Centre and radius (nm): 5301N00048W020
Parent ICAO: EGTT
Start date/time: 29/07/2007 10:25 UTC
End date/time: 29/07/2007 11:25 UTC
Activity period: null
Lower height limit: 050
Upper height limit: 200

TEMPORARY CONTROLLED AIRSPACE (CLASS A) ESTABLISHED AS FOLLOWS

TEMPORARY AIRWAY FM LESTA (524427N 0010419W) TO SCAMPTON TEMPO

CONTROLLED CTR CIRCLE 10NM RAD CENTRED ON SCAMPTON FL065/SFC

1030/1130. CONTROL AUTHORITY SCAMPTON ATC. CONTROL AUTHORITY

LACC/WAADINGTON ATC

AUS 07-07-0835/3059/AS6

Hi All,
Would someone be kind enough to explain this please? What am I missing that requires a temporary airway rather than a RA(T)?
Thanks

[whowhenwhy]

A non-tax-payer?

[WorkingHard]

Thanks www. Is one to presume you offer that same inane responses over the RT when you are working? Forgive me if your reply was in response to a different thread.

[On_The_Top_Bunk]

Thought this was going to be a first aid thread on tracheostomy.

Oh well

[Matt Skrossa]

Looks like a Royal Flight, hence www's subtle response of 'a non-tax payer'. A bit too early for you WH?

[Chilli Monster]

I thought the policy was to keep these flights inside CAS when established. With that in mind why hasn't it been routed North and East in the same way that Doncaster / Humberside arrivals are, with a temporary CTR around Scampton?

Instead you now have it routeing over a busy bit of class 'G', disrupting a busy parachute school and several busy flying training organisations, along with the rest of the "outside CAS" community.

Just for the sake of saving 5 minutes - which ar$e thought of that one!

[whowhenwhy]

Thanks Matt, with Bead Window in mind, I thought the oblique reference might be better!!! That said, I do try to be as inane as possible on the RT, is stops me taking life too seriously.

Chilli, have to admit that, knowing the policy that you described, I was a little surprised. It's not exactly going to save them a lot of time and the airspace flown through is distinctly busy on a Sunday. Perhaps it is something else? Wonder how many spotters reading this have got their long lenses en-route? :E

[WorkingHard]

www, I apolgise sincerely for taking the wrong view of your post. Just irritable after a long stint, no excuse so please accept the apology.
"Just for the sake of saving 5 minutes - which ar$e thought of that one! " said Chilli. Can anything be done about such matters?

[Toxteth O'Grady]

WH, maybe you should change to WorkingTooHard! :}

:cool:

TOG

[WorkingHard]

TOG you are absolutely correct and a situation that I expect to change soon. The trouble is the "grumpy old man" syndrome keeps appearing and so far I have not found a cure for that. No suggestions please!

[Two's in]

Can anything be done about such matters?

Well the French came up with a solution to this in 1789, but as a serving member of HM Forces you may not want to go there.

[vecvechookattack]

Try this

http://www.republic.org.uk/

[WorkingHard]

Well, thanks but I dont wish to make the MONARCH history (most of the hangers on perhaps). What I was asking(as you know I'm sure) was what if anything can be done to stop the Class A nonsense because of how it affect others? Can anyone just have a notam to that effect? What if we all did similarly inconsiderate things? Who is going to Scampton anyway, the Queen, God bless her, or some unknown scrounging layabout?

[Two's in]

Even worse over here are Temporary Flight Restricted Areas (TFR's) which can appear with literally hours notice whenever George and Dicky decide to do a spot of sightseeing in the taxpayer's 747. Unless you spot it on the latest Notam, the first clue is a Bumfcuk, Idaho, National Guard F-16 playing tag.

[Molesworth Hold]

"Who is going to Scampton anyway, the Queen, God bless her, or some unknown scrounging layabout?"
From the British Monarchy web site: http://www.royal.gov.uk/output/page1.asp
Sunday, 29th July 2007
The Prince of Wales President, The Prince's Foundation for the Built Environment, will visit Lincoln Cathedral and meet students taking part in the Building Crafts Apprentices Programme Summer School, Lincoln Cathedral, Lincoln. His Royal Highness, Patron, The Cathedral Fellowships, will also meet apprentices attending the Cathedral Fellowships Annual Seminar, Lincoln Cathedral, Lincoln.
Not that hard to find out this kind if thing once you get a grip on this interweb thingy.

[vecvechookattack]

So, it wasn't a scrounging layabout but an adulterous, scrounging layabout instead

[Chilli Monster]

And I see we have another one

RAC : Q)EGTT/QARCA/IV/NBO/E/050/245/5201N00232W032 FROM 07/08/01 14:20 TO 07/08/01 15:20 B1441/07 E)TEMPORARY CONTROLLED AIRSPACE (CLASS A) ESTABLISHED AS FOLLOWS TEMPORARY AWY FM RETSI (523042N0025233W) TO MOSUN (515338N0022610W) FL245/FL100 1420/1515 THEN FM MOSUN TO MALBY (513533N0020342W) FL165/FL050 1425/1520. CONTROL AUTHORITY LACC/LYNEHAM ATC AUS 07-08-0214/3157/AS6 F)FL050 G)FL245


Anyone got any contacts in AUS to ask why?

[c-bert]

Excuse my ignorance gents, (being only a part time opsie) but are Royal Flights not a fairly common occurance? Why all the sudden interest in notams?

[chevvron]

c-bert; those old fogies are still living in the days of purple airspace which was FAR more restrictive than CAS-T.

[Chilli Monster]

c-bert

Reason for the interest is that policy for these flights is to use established CAS where it exists. Now in the space of 5 days we have 2 pieces of CAS-T established, with major impacts on other airspace users, when, for the sake of 5 minutes longer flight time, existing, established CAS could be used.

Someone, somewhere, is taking the pi$$

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

Amazing! WorkingHard asks a simple and valid question and out springs the usual suspects on their well fed hobbyhorses.

JSP 552 Arts 255.115.1 and 255.115.2 say that's what you do; ENDEX. A 1 hour slot with a floor of 050 is hardly GA grounding (unless you like jumping out of serviceable aeroplanes). Would you rather he pretended to be Dutch Royalty and cycle up to Lincoln? It's his Mum's train set.

Chevvron; those were the days, eh.

[Chilli Monster]

A 1 hour slot with a floor of 050 is hardly GA grounding (unless you like jumping out of serviceable aeroplanes).

Which the Scampton NOTAM did - straight over a site notified up to FL150. Really good planning that.

Would you rather he pretended to be Dutch Royalty and cycle up to Lincoln?

No - just following the already established CAS would be sufficient.

[rudekid]

Chilli Monster

Have you spoken to anyone at AUS or just whinged on the internet?:hmm:

[FL575]

GBZ

Those were the days.

Any Purple Airspace on the UK half mil South map meant that only junior crews flying on the UK half mil North map could fly. And that flying was stopped 3 days before the Purple Airspace became effective.

Grown ups were allowed to fly though, if they really had to.

[OCCWMF]

Probably some new monkey in the job. Have you seen the 5 reasons on that republic website? Wouldn't fancy their chances if those are the top 5. Fairly sure you could tear those to pieces in short order with a bit of analysis.

[chevvron]

Chilli - it's 32 Sqdn at Northolt who actually request this airspace; if you want to whinge, try them for starters.

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

following the already established CAS would be sufficient


Forgive me if I'm being thick here but where is the "already established CAS" that leads to Scampton that could contain a decompression descent and maintain separation from traffic in Class G? Incidentally, where did the additional 5 mins track time come from, had "already established CAS" been used? A bit optimistic on GS isn't it?

[WorkingHard]

So why can he not use class G and rely on the superb ATC provided by the RAF to maintain separation for the last few track miles? How many others are entitled to such idiotic anachronisms in the 21st Century?

[Safety_Helmut]

Been at the shandy have you Sanchez ?

[rudekid]

Chevvron

Chilli - it's 32 Sqdn at Northolt who actually request this airspace; if you want to whinge, try them for starters.

Utter garbage. Despite 40 years of alleged experience you appear to be able to be 100% wrong.

[chevvron]

Well you certainly live up to your handle Rudekid; could it be you're on 32 Sqdn when you should have been a red arrow?(NB Lower case used on purpose)

[ATCO17]

Ok chaps....from JSP 552 255.115.2

"The aircraft operating authority will construct the CAS-T requirements and draft a signal in the format shown in Annex 255H, and pass it to AUS for authority to promulgate."

And.....JSP 552 255.110.4

"Promulgation AUS, CFTA and TQHF are jointly responsilble for promulgating details relating to Royal Flights, [B]the establishment of Temporary (Class A/C) Controlled Airspace (CAS-T) or Royal Low Level Corridors (RLLCs).......

AUS, the DAP authority for the establishment of CAS-T......etc etc

[rudekid]

chevvron

Sorry chap, missing your banter.

Neither a red arrow (linguistic anomaly accepted) nor a 32 Sqn mate. Just someone who spotted you spouting rubbish as fact, not opinion. I live up to my 'handle' when you venture your incorrect assumptions onto an open forum. If you're going to issue your opinion as fact expect some abuse. Otherwise keep quiet...

Of note, you presumably accept that your point is total garbage, as you don't appear to be correcting me... If that makes me rude, then it also makes you a liar.

PS In the military we abbreviate Squadron as Sqn, not Sqdn. But with forty years of experience you would have known that...

[Pierre Argh]

chevron says c-bert; those old fogies are still living in the days of purple airspace which was FAR more restrictive than CAS-T pse explain why it is less restrictive, I seem to have missed that one?

[WorkingHard]

DS, did your (presumably) wonderful school and your military training teach you that a personal attack will suffice when you have no intelligent conversation?

[niknak]

How many of you were incovenienced by this obviously irritable piece of CAS?
Very few I suspect :ooh::bored:
CAS for Royal Flights happens every day, it very rarely stops the earth rotating and I would suggest that you take a reallity check.
The consequences to the parachute people at Hibaldstow (who, after all, chose to set up an operation in the FIR fully aware of the surrounding commercial and military operations) are of no consequence and in reallity it caused no hassle to no one at all.

W H was quite right to ask the initial question and deserves respect for doing so, but the subsequent replies are mostly of no substance at all.

[chevvron]

Pierre: 'cos SVFR clearances are allowed in CAS-T.
Rudekid: I was told (in a joint meeting which AUS and 32 attended) that the establishment of CAS-T is requested by 32 Sqdn and promulgated by AUS; if you know different you'd better tell AUS.

[Tombstone]

Chevvron is 100% correct.

Queenie rings up 32 Sqn & asks for a taxi to Lincoln.

32 Sqn work out route & ask AUS to sort out the bluntie paperwork etc. :E

Queenie arrives at Lincoln, takes a look around the barren featureless landscape & then promptly gets back onto the mighty 146 never to return!




As each week passes, I feel more and more confident that the folk down at the Vulcan Project are not going to be able to make me do it!!!

Brewery, P*ss up...

[BEagle]

Just for that comment, Tombstone, we will ensure that it is a rose with a particularly large and thorny stem.......

[rudekid]

Chevvron & The 100% Correct Tombstone

Still spouting rubbish old chap!:E

Ever heard of CFTA?

Best leave AUS to do it the way they already are!

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

rudekid; correct me if I'm wrong but you seem to be questioning chevvron's credentials. He gained his CAA ATCO Licence (a quaint civvy concept for qualification) at the same time as me in 1972. Unlike me, he stuck at it and made it his career. When did you pass for yours?

[Chilli Monster]

Forgive me if I'm being thick here but where is the "already established CAS" that leads to Scampton that could contain a decompression descent and maintain separation from traffic in Class G?

Treat it like a Doncaster / Humberside arrival, following those airways that run east / west which could have linked with a CTR centred around XP.

How many of you were incovenienced by this obviously irritable piece of CAS?......................
The consequences to the parachute people at Hibaldstow

????? Draw a line LESTA - EGXP, make it 10 miles wide and make the base level FL50. You may wish to re-think your answer.

'cos SVFR clearances are allowed in CAS-T.

Only if that CAS-T is a CTR, not the airway portion nor any form of CTA.

[rudekid]

GBZ

Congratulations to you both on your qualifications. I'm sure his credentials are immaculate...

Sadly, the information he is stating as fact is patently incorrect.

I'm not commenting on the validity of special use airspace, CAS-T, RLLC or others. I'm personally ambivalent about it's implementation, I can see clearly how it would cause considerable irritation over the top of an active parachute centre. However, this is not why I replied to the thread...

Chilli - it's 32 Sqdn at Northolt who actually request this airspace; if you want to whinge, try them for starters.

Is an incorrect statement. Tombstone is equally wrong in his support, although possibly correct in his assertions about Lincolnshire:}

ATCO17, who incidentally may have a similar qualifications to your own much vaunted ones, has quoted correctly as to the processes employed in
securing this airspace. Maybe the processes your colleagues describe were correct in 1972, but I can absolutely assure you that this not the case now. In this instance, my credentials are immaculate!:E

Thanking for jumping to the assistance of your colleague. Most of my posts on this thread are posted in banter...But that's a quaint military concept of humour, when do you pass for yours?

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

Chilli Monster, thanks for answering the first part. What about the contingency for decompression, though? Also, do you Mil chaps plan for RCF?

rudekid, congratulations on your skill at disguising the banter, :D.

[Chilli Monster]

What about the contingency for decompression

Highest base of CAS in that area is FL105, by which time the aircraft would have been descending into the established XP CTR anyway - no decompression problem.

[rudekid]

GBZ

Now you're getting into the spirit....:}

[Magp1e]

Rudekid and ATCO17 are correct....The request for the establishment of CAS(T) is the responsibility of the AIRCRAFT OPERATOR, which is not always 32 SQn.