Thanks Movers...not!

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

Another blinder by the movers at Brize last night...

An individual turns up half an hour late for check-in for the Falklands flight (ie 90 minutes before departure), having got lost on the way to Brize from a secret Welsh airbase (not a bright chap, clearly).

Said individual acknowledges his mistake and begs to be allowed on flight...

...and is refused:{

Now I hear you all say that he was late, it's his fault, etc, and this is true - but there was clearly enough time for this lone chump to check in and board the flight. The upshot is that some other poor sod is stuck in the Falklands till the next airbridge through no fault of his own, and the unfortunate who was late is left feeling both very guilty and rather humiliated in front of all his peers and superiors.

Was there really any reason to bar this individual from the flight, other than a power-crazy "Because we can" or some perverse notion of 'teaching him a lesson'?

:ugh::ugh::ugh:

[shawtarce]

Flexibility used to be the key to something or other…….
:ugh:

[SirToppamHat]

Flexibility used to be the key to something or other…….

... the new RAF fitness strategy?

I do wonder whether this would have occurred had it been a Tristar ... anyone any experience?

STH

[SRENNAPS]

I'll bet there is another side to this story. :rolleyes:

[Report Line]

Er we go !

- 90 minutes late for a military flight! Carrying his ID I hope. Plane not over booked like civvy flights? Just an honest mistake? Seats available?

- Hold on a minute let me get my book of civvy regs - yep thought so - - a security risk. Not to mention the fact that rules is rules. CAA says blah blah blah.
-0-

- Hold a minute got to check the passengers going to Bosnia - to make it easier no ranks - OK - Blogs, Coopgrass, Jackson - sorry General.
-0-

Cos you have caused a fuss sir I have been told by Flt Lt ***** (the SMovO) that we are going to have do the 100% kit check on you. Could you un pack your bags and your Bergen. Well we have to do it on somebody.
-0-

- I know you and your unit have just completed a 4 month tour and every body wants to go home to see their family but reports times have to be adhered to - why? Hmmmm the plane might be early. Four hours is reasonable after all we will put you into the cinema and show you a film for the first two hours.
-0-

- Sir,would you mind passing me your bayonet around the walk through metal detector?

- Certainly Cpl.

- Hmmm not sure about this do you need it at the other end?

- Not sure - will you be there if I do and I haven't got it?
-0-

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

I'll bet there is another side to this story


Yes, absolutely - I hope there is, and I'll be interested to hear what it is. My personal experiences at Brize have always been favourable, which is why I'm keen to find out what went on this time (and no it wasn't me by the way!).

[12 twists per inch]

Movers and Army loggies also starred last week in the Deid. After proudly announcing an hour earlier than planned departure, they managed to c*ck up the head count vs manifest check. The poor loggie Cpl had to go from seat to seat asking folk their names and then highlighting them on a list. Two hours of sweatily sitting on the vintage DC10 passed before we eventually taxied off. Highly amusing though was the Army Rupert who tried to take over and started shouting the odds about how he was going to speed it up - he was quickly taken outside and told to wind his neck in! := Classic:D

[BEagle]

I believe the matelots call this 'Adrift under Sailing Orders'? The penalty for which is probably keel-hauling, followed by a week in the buggery barrel....

Or is this techincally 'Late on Parade'?

How many people do not have mobile phones these days? Hardly bloody difficult to ring up and say "Stuck in traffic in Llandewi Brefi - it's the local sheep-and-wellie festival and I could be slightly late. My boarding ref is NNNNNN, I'm very sorry about this, it's hardly my fault and I'll do all I can to get to BZN on time - please don't go without me!"

But then again, the Red Arm Band folk perhaps thought "Viet Taff. Screw him!!".

Hope not though...

[Ventre A Terre]

Would it be impolite to ask why 90 min before is a "late" check-in? When I fly civair south from ISK I only have to check in a minimum of 30 minutes before and whilst I appreciate it your average MPA bound pax may have slightly more baggage surely it can't be that much different? Even during my days on the K check-in didn't close until 30 min before and they had to build the stack as well! Sounds like jobsworth to me!
VAT


Edited for happy hour speeling

[Training Risky]

Here's a question....

I may be boarding a flight to some sh!tehole east of Suez for the first time ever in a few months.

Do the movers/plods at Brize follow the same b0ll0cks rule that civ airports do reference toothpaste+mouthwash+drinks+creams+100ml plastic bag = UTTER BALLACHE FOR ALL PAX?!?!?

Excuse my language - just done this at Heathrow - not amused.

Cheers for any heads-up you can give.

[hoodie]

With such a "Sod the Pax" attitude, perhaps RAF means RyanAirForce? :=

[ScapegoatisaSolution]

Was 'Taff the Pax' there at the terminal check-in desk with bags and passport at 90 mins? Or was he at Brize at 90 mins before ie at the gate and then long-term car park, then a walk to terminal, etc? The ALM wants the trim at no later than 60 mins before the flight so I doubt there was a complete shut out at the 90 min mark. But perhaps there was indication of strong winds on the route that required more fuel, reduced payload and limiting leg issues, request to push back as earlier as possible to meet arrival times, etc, etc, etc. Perhaps there was a VIP on board and the pressure from above to meet the departure time. There are just so many variables it seems somewhat of a knee-jerk reaction to blame the movers for an inability of one pax to meet a well-publicised check-in time.

[Two's in]

Largely academic if it was a 2 hour boarding cut-off or a 12 hour boarding cut-off. Five minutes before the parade is the time to present oneself, just like everybody else in fact. It's nothing to do with why you should be there 2 hours before, it's all to do with the fact that you have received a movement order to be there 2 hours before, have you ever noticed that it's not called a Unit Movement Invitation? In my experience having a "really good excuse" was not really considered much when addressing failure to attend a parade. Mind you, it's been a few years now, does QR's have anything about good excuses these days, it wouldn't surprise me.

[Yeller_Gait]

So why is it that BZN require 2-3 times as long to process pax as any civvy airline?

Perhaps we ought to employ Ryanair staff at BZN instead of movers, far more efficient and much cheaper to employ, can I claim my £25 gems award now?

I am sure there is another side to the story, but arriving 90 mins before scheduled departure should not preclude the pax from flight; as someone has already said, what about consideration for the person that he is supposed to replace in FI?

Y_G

[Mr C Hinecap]

If all the loudmouth gobs on here could do the job of the Movements Trade, there would not be such a shortfall in their numbers and they would not be so over-stretched. I thought everyone knew how to 'do' supply, but recent years have highlighted all the experts have moved trades.
I'll wait to see whether this one has any legs - and I'm wondering what TOD has to do with the individual or situation overall.

[Pontius Navigator]

Perhaps you could enlighten us on your experiences of travelling with the RAF AT fleet as a passenger, to form such an opinion.

0400 call at Gateway to be told the flight had been delayed until 1000.

Then nagged to get out of bed as breakfast would be served at 0500 and we had to check out of the room.

Lay around in the lounge for the next 6 hours.

How's that?

[Tourist]

"If all the loudmouth gobs on here could do the job of the Movements Trade"

http://bestsmileys.com/lol/5.gifhttp://bestsmileys.com/lol/12.gif

[Report Line]

Don't take the Jibes at Movers to heart. It is just a fact of life that some trades are operationally focussed others are not.:cool:

[ShyTorque]

I think that irrespective of how late the chap was, and why, the attitude should have been: Can he be "processed" in time to get on the flight, or not?

If the answer was negative, then the correct decision was made.

If he could have been flown, then he should have been put on the flight. Any disciplinary issues could (and should) have been taken up later. He was presumably on his way to carry out a duty and should have been allowed/made to do that. Any further delay was only exascerbating the circumstances which may, or may not, have been under his personal control in the first place.

I sincerely hope that the "jobsworth, we'll show you!" attitude isn't now prevalent within the services, too. :rolleyes:

[Ivan Rogov]

So this poor guy was told to report 4hrs before departure and turned up 90mins late. That just validates having check in 4hrs before, maybe it's not to do with security and Movers but to cover late arrivals, obviously not this late though :ooh:.
The RAF is not a civilian airline with 2 or 3 flights a day to each destination, once a week if you are lucky! So I can see why it is important (and your responsibility) not miss your flight, as has been said there is a knock on effect.
Used AT in the last month, although there were problems the Movers, Crew and others were very professional, we all got fed, watered, informed and home (eventually), all the effort was appreciated :ok:
It's much easier to accept that you are walking frieght and let them do their job. 200 odd instant experts per flight would be a nightmare, I wouldn't want to do it.

[Pilot Pacifier]

A number of years ago I was told at short notice that I had to get to MPA asap, as one of loadies on the Chinook had come home for compassionate reasons. Flight was due to go out on a Sunday, the day that the clocks went back...

Already the hair on my neck was sticking up, I just knew that there would be GMT and local time faff. So I asked MT at Odiham if I could go an hour early just in case. Couldn't be done I was told as the coach was due to pick up a load of inbound pax and they had double checked my timings. Great…

Waiting for MT at the Sqn, a 4-tonner turns up! The coach had gone an hour earlier and they didn’t think that I would want to go on it, but they had checked the flight times, it was all OK! On the way to Brize, the 4-tonner breaks down. After 10mins of the young SAC kicking the tyres and being on the mobile to her boss and me considering getting a taxi, off we go again…

Arriving at Brize I join the queue that is extending out of the terminal. Guy in front of me asks if I’m on the flight to Bermuda!!! MPA I tell him. You better get inside he said as I was in the wrong queue!

Yep, you’ve guessed, there was just less than an hour to take off, my worst fears had come true. It was going that hour earlier.
I explained to the Cpl the problem I’d had getting there, who I was and why I was going to MPA at such short notice and he just looked at me and said, “Well, you ain’t getting on the flight then Sarge are you.”

I asked to see his boss and a WO comes over. After explaining it all once again, he says the same thing. I ask to see the DAMO, if he’s not available, then the aircraft captain. Their heads pick up as they realise that I know something about the movements system.

I explain the whole thing to the DAMO again. Despite the pax still sitting in the departure lounge, he says the same thing.
I ask him that I’d like to see the aircraft captain so that I can go as supernumerary crew and at the same time telling him that he would have to explain to CBFFI why his Chinook couldn’t fly as he wasn’t willing to put me on the flight. That raised a few eyebrows!

OK he says, but you’ll have to call out the Duty Officer at Odiham to get the flight delayed! I was flabbergasted! Do you know how long that will take I say (by now it had already taken 20mins), Christ, why can’t you just be flexible and put me on the flight. He relented, they put on the flight.

The long and short of it is, at no time from the Cpl upwards were they helpful. All it needed was, “Hold on a mo, I’ll see what I can do,” instead it was just one wall after the next. Yes, I got lucky by quoting a few names and knowing my way around the system, but it shouldn’t have to come to that.

It’s for the above reasons that the movers get their bad reputations from…

[forget]

Ah, but the proper RAF was different. One early Sunday morning at Cottesmore, in the decade known as the ‘60s, my door was being hammered, hard. It was a mate Vic, frantic as he’d overslept to catch a ‘Transport Command’ Britannia on Vulcan exercise to the Far. We ran out to the MkII Zodiac and zoomed off to dispersals.

We get onto the peri-track and, in the distance, a Brit is coming towards us for departure. Too late! Worth a try I thought; I flash the headlights and pull onto the grass. Vic jumps out and stands on the grass with pleading eyes towards the crew. Blow me! They stop, shut down 1 and 2, and call for some steps, which arrive in minutes. The door opens and closes, 1 and 2 start up, and off went Vic.

Gawd, I was impressed. Try telling that to ……………

( Cracking outfits, the ‘ 60s Brits and VC-10s. Never failed to do a first call job! )

[Gainesy]

From today's Daily Telegraph.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v167/Gainesy/matt.gif

[Smudger552]

Yawn.........these threads are so boring, get a life chaps and report when you are asked to. :rolleyes:

[vecvechookattack]

If the movers are soo poor then why dont we civilianise the system?

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

I'm wondering what TOD has to do with the individual or situation overall


I work in the same force as the guy who missed his flight, though not at the same base; being far from immune to mistakes myself (though not usually quite so daft and avoidable mistakes), I would hope to be treated slightly differently were I to be in the saem situation in future. As we're a small force, news of his mistake has spread far and wide already!


get a life chaps and report when you are asked to


Yes I agree, but I just feel sorry for the bloke who's now stuck in the Falklands for another week or so. Apparently his would-be replacement got held up/lost while trying to navigate around the floods - but that's not really an excuse given that the floods have had so much publicity...

[Echo 5]

If the movers are soo poor then why dont we civilianise the system?

Have you ever watched Airport on the tv ? That lot at Liverpool don't take sh!t off anyone. :ugh:

[Blakey875]

VAT - What airline are you on about? even easyJst close the desk at 40 mins before departure but ask all pax to report 2 hours before ideally. There is flexibility but you do need more time to load widebody aircraft than smaller ones. The crew do expect the paperwork 60 mins before and so the pressure is on. Yes, we do accept latecomers depending on the circumstances but then face a whinge from the Loadie about his catering numbers! Whatever happens in the Gateway as regards evictions, calls etc is the domain of the Catering Flight and nothing to do with the Movers! Finally, I have emplaned late pax right up to the wire and again denied them if they arrive late - it all depends on the guys attitude. He's late he starts shouting he's had it! Always remeber two RA WO2s shouting the odds about only being 20 mins late and making mischief - When asked if it was ok to start an Artillery barrage 20 mins late they clammed!! I'm retired now but I learned to grow broad shoulders and the misinformed crap continues - security checks - Plods, in-flight/gateway etc - Caterers, transport/buses etc - MT, booking cock-ups - Clerks, delays/lack of info - Crews!! But what the heck - blame the Movers!!

[Pontius Navigator]

A couple of very junior rock POs were led astray at Akrotiri, probably their first time overseas. Arrived on the apron as the Belslow, laden with all the kit and their flight, was taxiing.

Imploring gestures made to Captain. Stern shake of head, aircraft continues forward then stops, door opens, 2 very worried POs pulled on board.

Six weeks later, RTB, same POs, same leading astray . . .

only difference was they hed left their flight at Masirah or whereever as the ac had been 190lb overweight.:} They were again boarded as the aircraft taxied.

[MReyn24050]

Something is sadly wrong here. It is acknowledged that the guy was late reporting and there is a need to address the problem. However, not letting him join the flight meant that the guy he was replacing was not be able to return to the UK for another week after his tour of duty, why should he be "punished"? Surely the procedure should have been let the guy catch the flight but warn him that action will be taken whereby he will be required to explain the reasons for his lateness to his new OC and if necessary receive any punishment due. I believe common sense was required, after all he was at the airhead in time to be able to board the aircraft even though he was an hour after the required reporting time.

[Big Bear]

So he was driving from Wales to Brize the day of his flight with the weather we've been having? I may be having an outbreak of common sense but wouldn't it have been more sensible to be in the Brize area the night before the flight? Just a thought.

Bear

[Mr C Hinecap]

two points:

1. We have one side of the story here.

2. Driving himself? Shame on the chap for not getting MT to take him. Don't tell me he was in his own car as well, and will drive home in it after a 16 hr flight on duty? Fatigue? Selby rail crash? Poor show.

[NutLoose]

I do remember at Brize the custom was for senior officers to join the Ten flight after everyone else had boarded and was seated...

One evening after all the Pax had got on and were seated, I was given the OK to deice the fwd fuselage from the Stb side, ( we normally left it to prevent Deicing fluid dripping on the pax as they entered the aircraft)

Anyway, I let rip just as some General, late departing the terminal was heading up the airstairs....... Oddly, he didn't see the funny side of it, though everyone else dissapeared under the wing to have a good laugh whilst I got the flak......

He must of copped a good couple of gallons of the stuff and I was later told the Pax already seated burst out laughing when he stepped inside..


Speaking of Civilians operating with the RAF..... The RAF actually trialed a couple of Black Cabs at RAF Upavon to see if they would be suitable as general transport.............. They were not a success, as when picking up service personal, you would get civvies jumping in and saying take me to so and so, even though they had RAF emblazened down the sides and the driver was in Uniform..even when pointed out they refused to get out LOL

[No Vote Joe]

2. Driving himself? Shame on the chap for not getting MT to take him. Don't tell me he was in his own car as well, and will drive home in it after a 16 hr flight on duty? Fatigue? Selby rail crash? Poor show.

Our MT will not take you to the airhead, only provide a hire car. They will, however, pick you up from BZN, due to the fatigue issues.

[Fat Lad]

May I just clarify my understanding? A GR7 pilot makes a pretty serious error in judgement resulting in his aircraft sustaining “some damage on the fuselage” (and possibly escaped lightly) and it receives 22 posts on this site, mainly in a flippant vein. A Movements Tradesman applies the well-publicised regulations, and despite not knowing the surrounding facts (availability of manpower and other aircraft movements to name but 2), the same tiresome nonsense gets aired here. Hypocrisy anyone?:mad::mad:

As for those who compare military and civair reporting times, pop into BZZ and volunteer to join the under-resourced shift to stack the vent in a VC10. I would suggest that with our ageing AT fleet, lack of manpower and inadequate resources, the 2 timings are blatantly incomparable!

Rant ends!:ugh::ugh:

[C130 Techie]

The word down here is that it seems this guy was not particularly eager to come down (is anyone?) and therefore probably didn't push too hard to get on to the flight after being told no.

Just for the record the guy here who he was due to replace was allowed to leave on time and departed on yesterdays flight.

From my own perspective I have had to deal with a spate of 'no shows' and last minute sufferers of 'twisted sock syndrome' over the last few weeks. In all but one case the guys posts were gapped for a few days and they got away on time. What I will say though is in most of the cases the attitude of the admin staff back at the parent units has been particularly unhelpful.

I just hope that when these people take their turn either down here or in the sandpit that they get the same level of service.

One final point. The small section of movers here at MPA work bloody hard and provide an excellent service.

[buoy15]

Brize Norton Movements is the only unit in the British Military with 100% job satisfaction
All trades can p*ss you about for whatever reason without repercussion
Yes, I went there many times with my own ac, sufficient fuel, rations and crew to pick up lads from the desert so they didn't face a 24hr coach journey home - and I still got fecked about
Having given 24hsr notice - what should have been a 15min engine running quick pick-up, became a 2hr shutdown because of Customs aresh*les, Air traggic parking cock-ups and DAMOS insisting on everyone wearing dayglo vests to walk out
Fortunately on this trip we had FOSNI on board and he observed everything
Funny old thing, after that, things improved for us, but I still read here that things haven't improved much for the fighting lads on the ground
The Stn authorities and Movers think that BZN is the equivilent of Heathrow - it's no way! - and they should not be allowed to compete to be in the same league
We have ID - we are vouched for, valid and valuable and should be processed as VIP's rather than cattle
Over the years the Movers have been tied to the procedures of the ASCOT mob who are still living in the heady days and think they are BOAC, BEA or BA equals and follow their own rules, so they suppot them to the detriment of their primary task of caring for those who need a flight, hotel or tent
Cue Beagle and PN

[Pontius Navigator]

Cue Beagle and PN

Thanks, leave me out of this one.

[November4]

Oh well - 6 months since the last Mover bashing thread :zzz::zzz:
buoy15
yep all the fault of the Movers.....
Customs aresh*les - HM Customs - nothing to do with Movers
Air traggic parking cock-ups - as you said Air Traffic - nothing to do with Movers
DAMOS insisting on everyone wearing dayglo vests to walk out - and who set that rule....


Fatlad - totally agree with what you said

[rolandpull]

The movements trade trains airmen to load plan and complete weight and balance (trims) at the SAC (Movs Controller) level. This trained airman as things stand completes/coordinates all the paperwork (pax/trim/cargo) that is then handed over to the DAMO (Flt Lt/WO runner) who double checks the paperwork (of the airman who has had formal training)who then takes the documents to the loadmaster who double checks the DAMO's checks of the airman who then splits the manifest and cargo docs out from the pile and passes the trim sheet to the captain who then.............

If you work back all the paperwork handling and officialdom into the scenario at the start of this thread you can see why the RAF closes out its flights so early where as a commercial operation is some what more streamlined and efficient.

In civvy street if a passenger is running late for a flight the dispatcher makes a mental note but still runs his documentation/process with the information that is known to him be it pax/cargo/fuel etc - he would normally tell the capt the late runners info BTW. If the pax does rock-up after the paperwork has been printed the dispatcher amends the load/trim sheet by way of a Last Minute Change ammendment, and the pax/bag flies. An LMC can run on average 500-1000 kgs. Instead of getting into a verbal slanging match at check-in, the 'flexible' mover would take the upper hand, put the pax in their place verbally and let them fly. At Brize no pan is more than 15 minutes away and quick call to the pan phone/movers puts those in the know in the loop. Civvy street does this for commercial reasons/passenger retention, I think the Movers need to apply the same methodology/ethics with a pax who has a requirement to be on that jet.

I have worked to a remit of check-in closure at -45mins with an acft turn around time of 90 mins (320 pax off/on, decater/cater, clean, bagsoff/on, crew change, security checks) and this was at a very large airport near Hounslow under the current security restrictions. Interstingly, so long as I had the acft doors closed at the Scheduled Time of Departure then the call as to whether a pax is accepted or not fell not to the acft capt but to me. Yes it was a team effort, but ultimately the on time performance was a function of the ground operation and how I managed the turn around and third party suppliers. If I made the wrong call then the capt had my name and a voyage report was raised and I was held to account and lessons would be learnt if applicable.

[Brain Potter]

buoy15,

I have no doubt that as a visiting aircraft, essentially performing an AT task, you have been "fecked around" when all you wanted to do was land, load and go. I once saw/overhead the crew of a Nimrod R1 that had diverted in to BZZ trying to get a crew bus to come the aircraft after the first bus had refused to take them as he was a pax bus.

However,the frustrations that you experienced with all the other agencies are unfortunately part-and-parcel of the AT business. The sections that you complain about actually do get their job done safely - but doing it efficiently, every time, needs manning and experience levels that they simply don't have. Customs are not under the control of Brize, but UK servicemen have not proven themselves trustworthy to this agency. You may have been seen as a slightly lower priority than packing the next TriStar off to points east - not ideal I know, but surely you can understand the need to prioritize.

Such problems are no different to those experienced every day by AT crews - even (usually?) at their own bases. Other RAF bases are usually worse and the US military bases have many of their own special frustrating rules - such as no people on, or working on, the aircraft during refuelling. Airports are generally much better, but we often use the cheapest (and worst) handling agents and the MoD are such bad payers that they will abandon us for their better customers when one arrives. I'm afraid if you don't want to wear day-glo jacket then you should rule out working at an airport - it's not a Brize invention designed to p*ss you off!

In no way do people at Brize think it is the equivalent of Heathrow. In many ways I wish they did, maybe then we could have ATC rules and equipment that are more appropriate for large aircraft. I don't understand what you mean by "competing to be in the same league". Are you saying that Brize should redesign it's processes? Using what as a model?

As for your assertion (I think) that movers are following rules laid down by aircrew - you are simply wrong. Movements regulations are set by the own policy people, striving to adhere to the rules and practices of the airline industry as laid down by ICAO, IATA, JAR and the CAA. Similarly, the regulations for the operation of the aircraft attempt to follow best practice from those sources. What is your suggested alternative?

Finally, as to insulting the crews - again I believe you are simply wrong. Considering the age of the aircraft, the relative inexperience of the crews and the demands of the tasking, I think they are doing a fine job. The last HERRICK RiP saw a 100% dispatch success rate for the TriStar - something for which movers, engineering, ops and crews should all take credit. Do you think that the crew of your tanker on ops behave as BOAC prima-donnas? And, by the way, one difference between BOAC/BEA and Brize crews is in the accident rate; Brize has been doing Strat AT for 40 years without killing anyone.

[Saint Evil]

I was leaving Akrotiri on posting with my wife and 7 week old child. I had already spoken to customs re my child's lack of passport and they put the necessary procedures in place for us to leave.

On the day of departure the movers proudly announced to my wife and myself that we could fly but our child would have to stay, despite us producing the docs that the customs people had given us. When we were a little upset with this decision we asked to speak to the customs people to be told that the office was closed but would reopen at 1230. The flight was about 30 min later. Deciding that time was off the essence here we went straight to customs to find anyone to find out what was going on - when we got there we found out that the customs office was open and that they would have been shut at 1230 and that the movers knew the times well.

Once we had got my child onto the aircraft( a fairly stressful time) we sat in out VC10 with rearfacing seats and strapped my child's european standard car crash seat into the chair(very secure the helo loadies would have been proud) I was told that he couldn't occupy the seat for t/o or ldg as it was authorised. Fair enough I said - I know the drill been aircrew for a while, I asked for the additional lapstrap so that I could secure my son to myself. At this point I was told that I couldn't do that as they didn't have any lapstraps. When pressed as to what the VC10 crew felt was a suitable method of restraint for a 7 week old child I was asked "can you hang on to him?" by the Steward. At this point I was getting a little frustrated and pointed out that I needed to secure a bag in case it flew round the cabin but apparently I can hang onto a child. At this point I asked to speak to the organ grinder not the monkey and the FS loadie came over and said exactly the same thing. My only options were to hang onto my child or get off the plane. Having fought hard to get onto the plane and with my next job pressing(if I missed the flt it would have been tricky) I foolishly elected to stay on board. I should have got the Captain down to speak to him and then got off the plane if I got no satisfaction. I did complain to the PRO and got a written response about 3 months later(the speed of military paperwork is astounding).

Frankly the military AT fleets should do what it's best at - flying into sh1tholes and pulling out the stops for the boys on the ground and leave flying families etc to the civvies. Appalled at the Movers, AT Fleet and myself(for not having enough courage to do what I should have done - get off) is not the word.

[buoy15]

Brian Potter
Thank you, - elloquent and articulate, I accept your points
However, when you are on an Ops/CT, which includes an intermediate land/pickup, organised and agreed 24hrs before, with planned fuel and timings, and a notified VIP on board, I would have expected that during BZN morning prayers that day, (and other days) stn management would have highlighted this and we would have been dispatched as intended
The red mist fogs up very quickly when the supposedly simplistic of things don't happen as expected and then start to snowball
I don't expect special treatment or for anyone to flout the rules regarding safety - there is a war on whilst it's peacetime in UK????
But I do expect someone who has reached rank or experience levels to use his/her initiative and common sense - which they are trained and paid for - to assess a situation, and safely say
"Iv'e left my rule book in the office, but that looks ok to me, let them go home - and by the way - they are inside the wire, so they must be bone fide and they are actually on the flying programme - go for it!"
Never had these problems at Lyneham, Gatwick or Heathrow, doing the same format

I suppose Nimrod could qualify for Strat AT since 1968 with no losses!

[Mud Clubber]

Let's not mitigate - movers suck ass. End of.

[SRENNAPS]

Saint Evil,

In 1968 my mother took my 3 month year old sister, my two and four year old brothers and I (aged seven) out to Singapore on a RAF VC10 to meet my Dad who had been posted out to Penang a few weeks earlier. No problem at all.

Since then I have personally have flown on more VC10s than you have had hot dinners, to every corner of the world.


Why do I think you are talking complete rubbish!!!!!!

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

SRENNAPS,

Could have suggested the over head luggage space for the ankle snapper, as it,s perfectly secure and if wedged in between other bags the little screaming ****e machine is going no where...................and the closed door would drown out the incessant bleating as no doubt the child takes after his dad.................:=

[Heliport]

SRENNAPS

Because you're in a bad mood?
Because you've just got back from the pub?

:confused:

[Shack37]

SRENNAPS, why do I think you're exaggerating a little.
SFFP, I can see why.
:yuk::yuk::yuk::yuk::yuk:
s37

[Gainesy]

ISTR that regular AT pax flights had a thing called a Skycot for babies, sort of a carry cot that dangled from the overhead.

[SRENNAPS]

Shack37 - why do you think I am exaggerating a little?

SFFP - could I ask you to confirm which "ankle snapper" you are talking about?

Heliport - Yes just got back from the pub (last night) and no, I was in a good mood, just astounded by some of the replys posted on this thread about fellow colleagues in blue.........Again!!!!!!

[MReyn24050]

ISTR that regular AT pax flights had a thing called a Skycot for babies, sort of a carry cot that dangled from the overhead.

As you say the "Skycot" was suspended from the hat rack that aircraft used to have before the introduction of overhead bins. Back in the days of British United Airways I was a member of the Design Office and recall producing a modification for the BAC 111 to introduce the locating points for the "Skycots" when BUA had the Air Trooping Contract.

[Shack37]

Srennaps, I don't believe you've had more VC10 flights than hot dinners consumed by Saint Evil. Please clarify "every corner of the world"

You suggested another poster was talking rubbish, were you there? Was that one of your 1000s of flights on VC10s to yet another corner of the world. Just how many "corners" are there.

You may thik you got back from the pub in a "good mood", your post suggests otherwise.:=

[SRENNAPS]

Shack 37,

I must admit I am not sure how many hot dinners have been consumed by the person in question – so I agree I was totally out of order. But trust me I have been on a hell of a lot of VC10 trips.

No, I was not there to see the incident but I would suggest that the person was not properly prepared for a posting back to UK given the publicity on the subject of passports for young kids and he had quite an “attitude” about the subject. I would also suggest that there was an “attitude” towards the cabin staff about rear facing seats and lack of lap straps.

This kind of attitude is quite normal in civie street but sorry it seems that certain people in the forces like to “bring it on” in this modern day and age.

There are only 4 corners to the world ….. As the world is flat…..therefore an oblong…… so, yes I have been to all 4 corners… Having said that it might be have been more?????

Finally, sorry if my post suggested I was in a bad mood, just get a bit annoyed reading about people that blame the system to hide their own incompetence.

[Shack37]

Srennaps
I can see that perhaps you have seen incidents like this a time or two and it appears the travelling lads may have a different attitude to my time in blue when we were only to happy to sit down, strap in, shut up and sleep for X hours. That said, a couple of points made by SE in his post smell of p**sing around by staff who maybe could have been a bit more sympathetic.
Unless he was deliberately untruthful (he should have the benefit of the doubt) he stated:
He had consulted customs (immigration?) prior to travel.
He was given wrong information about customs office hours by movements staff just prior to boarding. If this is so then I can understand a little stress resulting in dummy spitting at the CC.
Anyway, all ended well for him and family so end of story I guess.

BTW. Nice to meet another flat earther, I think I may know those corners:ok:

s37

[TMK1]

Saint Evil
A couple of points on the regs for carrying children on AT aircraft and lap-belt extenders.

Current AT regs state that Children over 3 should be secured in their seat by the safety belt. Children under 3, but older than 6 months should be properly secured in an Innovint Child Restraint System (CRS) 2500 Seat (provided on the aircraft). Infants under 6 months are to be properly secured in an aft facing Innovint CRS. However, exceptionally, if no suitable safety seat is available (including a car-type safety seat), children under 2 yrs may be held in an adults lap, or placed in their seat and secured by the safety belt. These regs are based on the CAA General Exemption to the ANO on Child Restraint dated 29 Sep 06 http://www.caaerg.org.uk/docs/33/ORS4_598.pdf and the FAA Advisory Circular 120-87A on Child Restraint http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAdvisoryCircular.nsf/1ab39b4ed563b08985256a35006d56af/60d70126cf679d5a8625723b007841e7/$FILE/AC%20120-87A.pdf
FAA states that "During takeoff, landing and movement on the surface, a child under the age of two may be held in an adult’s lap or be placed in a regular passenger seat and use a standard seatbelt."
The lap-belt extender was withdrawn from the RAF a number of years ago after FAA research showed that the belts themselves could cause fatal injuries to children. The FAA has band them from use on aircraft, along with Harness Restraints and Booster Seats. If you read into the FAA paper on the subject, the accepted risk analysis is that a child traveling from A to B is far safer going on an aircraft, even if un-restrained, than making the same journey by other forms of transport ie restrained in a car.

There has not been a lot of change to the civil regs for a number of years, probably down to costs. An airline can put a fare paying passenger in the seat rather than an infant that will travel for free, or a vastly reduced rate. On an RAF AT aircraft this is not an issue as all passengers, whatever the age, are allocated a seat.

A number of airlines offer a britax Child car seat (eg BA). The RAF used to do this but have replaced them with seats designed and tested specifically for aircraft use. This is the Innovint CRS 2500 http://www.innovint.de/pdfs/IAI_CRS-2500.pdf . As far as I am aware this is the best seat on the market, and is certainly not the cheapest. Other users I believe are the Swiss Air Ambulance.

Therefore kids traveling on RAF AT, not only get a seat allocated, but also are put in the best aircraft CRS there is. They are also still allowed up to visit the flightdeck, not somthing a civil airline can offer. In the very rare case when an Innovint seat or suitable child car type safety seat (CAA definition) is not available, a child under 2 can be held by an adult. Not ideal, but complies with industry practise.

On your other points, If you had come to me as captain with that attitude towards my crew, I would have asked you to leave the aircraft. The primary reason the stewards and ALM are their is for the safety of the passengers, through all stages of flight not just in emergencies. Having seen some of the ways that they are treated by passengers (of all ranks), they have my deapest respect for the restraint they show and the service they provide.

[Saint Evil]

Thanks for info regarding seat restraints for kids(I'll follow the links as my curiosity has been piqued). When we left Akrotiri in 2004 there were no such devices available, which is why I wanted to use my 3 point car crash seat secured with a lap strap on the rearward facing seat of the VC 10 as the best form of restraint. When the reply came from the AT Fleet, I was given a lovely black and white photocopy of the new seats that were soon to come into service - but little help to me at the time.

Surely if hanging onto your kids is the best way of restraining them then all of the airlines would do it as they could ditch the extra lapstraps.

Srennaps - sorry if I upset your wonderful view of the AT Fleet but calling me a liar is out of order. You could always ask the midwife who helped deliver my son who was sat in the rows next to us. She offered to help us get our kit off the aircraft and then fell about laughing as the stewardess offered my 7 week old child chicken nuggets for lunch.

[Echo 5]

I wanted to use my 3 point car crash seat secured with a lap strap on the rearward facing seat of the VC 10 as the best form of restraint.
I always thought the rearward facing seat was the best form of restraint:bored: Well, forward restraint anyway.

[samuraimatt]

Not really good for orthogonal restraint though.

[Blakey875]

Pratt - I thought you were banned from posting?
Evil Chap - Read your diatribe with interest. Surely you would have had to go to the Handbrake House before leaving AKT and produce all your docs and satisfy them you were clear in all respects to travel? if so then surely one quick call would have cleared up all the confusion? Surely the High commission can issue passports within 7 days too so was your personal admin lacking?

[R 21]

SM

friction restrains - job done!!

[Saint Evil]

Blakey - I appreciate what you say about my personal admin, however, I was into PSF the day after my son was born to hand in the letter from TPMH and other paperwork as I knew this sort of faff was inbound. I had been told that it would take a couple of weeks for the birth certificate to come because it had to be typed out at Akrotiri and then be sent on for authentication etc. Once the birth certificate had been produced we could drive to Nicosia and get the passport. It took 6 weeks to get the birth certificate done because the typist was off sick and no-one had bothered to get a standin. When I offered to type it for PSF after the 4th week of trying to find out what was happening and explaining why I needed this document typing(leaving the country etc) did Aki PSF pull their finger out and sort it(still took another couple of weeks).

At that point I ensured that Customs were aware of the situation and that the necessary steps had been taken. Safe in the knowledge that I had covered the bases I relaxed to enjoy my last few days in the sun - silly me.

Echo 5 - did you see mythbusters do the aircraft crash seats demo - quite good, but they concluded that forward facing in the brace position was the best.

TMK1 - I have read the CAA doc and FAA doc and you are quite correct FAA doc para 10b does state that a child under 2 can be held during take off, landing and ground movement - but no mention of turbulence(?). The CAA doc states that para 2 (iv) that children under the age of 6 months should be secured by a supplementary loop device - that must be my arm then.

as for the final part - during the incident I was the model of restraint. Even the Midwife who delivered my son said that we were pretty calm. I had no wish to complain to other aircrew, but felt on this occasion I had to, and I suspect if you had come back to speak to me, with your attitude I would have got off before you offered the invite.;)

[November4]

friction restrains - job done!!

Only works with aircrew bags

[TMK1]

Saint Evil -Touché - attitude based on your organ grinder, monkey comment.

The CAA and FAA have different policies - CAA you would get a lap belt extender. FAA you dont. The only reason I got looked this up was that when I asked for a belt extender on an FAA regulated airline and was told that they did not carry them and to hold the infant. I now always buy a seat for junior and use the airlines CRS or our own approved car seat. Same rules apply for turbulance.

[Blakey875]

Evil - Ok I understand. Only asked 'cos when my son was born in TPMH a few years ago Birth Cert was produced by Admin AHQ Episkopi within days and then HC Nicosia also produced goods pretty fast! Result of more cuts I presume? You also notice that the sarcasm in here now is generated by the Loadies in here and not the Movers?
Pratt - Are you working for the Taliban? No wonder there is no flexibility!

[Echo 5]

samuraiprat,

What has all this sh!te

Tie-down restraint is the most common form of load restraint and involves the use of lashings.
The load is prevented from moving by friction between the load and the vehicle. The friction force prevents the load moving forward, rearward and sideways. The lashings are tensioned to clamp the load to the vehicle and to prevent the load from moving upwards.
The friction force comes from both the weight of the load and the clamping force of the lashings. When the surfaces are slippery, the friction forces can be very low.
Lashings that clamp the load onto the vehicle are called ‘tie-down lashings’

got to do with a seven week old sprog ?

Saint Evil,

Echo 5 - did you see mythbusters do the aircraft crash seats demo - quite good, but they concluded that forward facing in the brace position was the best.


Should one assume then that the RAF have been getting it wrong for several decades by facing the seats in the wrong direction. Oh, sorry I haven't seen the demo.

[Saint Evil]

Echo 5 - honestly I don't know. It was just a good programme and when they strapped the mythbusters team into the simulated cabin and then dropped it at an angle from(albeit not very much height) it was good tv on a slow shift day.;)

[fastener]

Whoa!! I can't belive that getting from A to B could be made so difficult. Airlines do it everyday. Even those F%^&wits at R%an air manage to get a few punters around europe every day!!!! As for W & B on a Trans Atlantic route the a/c will burn the same weight in fuel as a pax + kit on the way to the runway. I have worked at AA and BA and we would "normally" accept late pax provided they had an entertaining excuse. Sorry but I don't get it. Being found guilty of Jobsworthsism should be punishable by Bugg%%ing with a Ragmans trumpet. We could start with the security guys/gals at MAN/LGW/LHR. I'm sure ITV would run a programme on it. We could run a thread for the programme title here.

[Mr C Hinecap]

fastener - I have no idea where you have come in from, but you are some sort of genius in the AT world. I cannot believe that you have not appeared to me in a vision before, dispensing divine guidance and wise words, so that I may go forth and solve all the RAF AT problems. It is actually rather complex and exacerbated by tired aircraft, flying to grotty places, overstretch, cuts, cuts, did I mention doing more with less and a myriad of other stuff. The Movs world doesn't actually get off on being shouted at by grumpy PAX you know.

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

"The Movs world doesn't actually get off on being shouted at by grumpy PAX you know."

Mr C,

I seem to remeber from a recent thread that :-

"The Movs world actually get's off at shouting at the grumpy PAX you know." .............or words to that effect, which would seem to add some credence to the original thoughts on this thread :rolleyes: