View Full Version : What Trademark?
John Botwood
27th Jul 2007, 05:26
I could not find a page of an RAF website that is well used for historical research. My queries resulted in a reply pointing out that the website now had the following information displayed.
The images of RAF Badges previously displayed on this website were all Crown
Copyrighted - with MoD Trademark restrictions on their use, for both private
and commercial use. They were located on this private website as a temporary
measure until they could be relocated onto a military server, they have now
been removed from this website and are available for use via the Crown
Copyright Administrator.
This was a gallery of Squadron, Station, Section and Unit badges available
for personal viewing only, to anyone interested in RAF badges, logos and
crests. They may not to be downloaded for any purpose or used for commercial
gain without permission being granted by the Ministry of Defence.
I did not realise that I had served on quite a few famous trademarks. And bang goes history!
John B
Pontius Navigator
27th Jul 2007, 06:37
Mmm. Does that mean the people that make badged ware for the sqns, coffee mugs, sqn badges etc will have to pay a copyright fee and then we have to pay them for the fee as well as the mug.
And copyright law, how long is something copyrighted? Some sqn badges go back over 70 years. Changing the crown, does that renewl the copyright? Many of these are over 50 years old.
Who owns the copyright? The Chester Herald who created the design, the person who signed off the crest and awarded it? The MOD or the sqn to whom it was presented?
Next they'll tell me I can't sell my commissioning scrolls.
Wensleydale
27th Jul 2007, 07:09
I think that the problem is with the Queen's "Tudor" crown. If I remember correctly, the England cricket team got into trouble when they started to market replica shirts a few years ago and so the current England badge has a baronettes' crown over the lions and not the original tudor crown.
You are also not allowed to use the format of the RAF/Squadron badge without authority so you cannot produce a non-official badge in the same format. Many years ago I wanted to produce a sweatshirt (USA College style) with an E-3D flying out of the RAF badge instead of the Eagle/(Albertross?) with the logo "PER AWACS AD ASTRA". Strangley enough it was not allowed!:{
Pontius Navigator
27th Jul 2007, 07:44
But will there now be an additional copyright fee on mugs and patches?
Remember lots of these are sold to Joe Public as well.
John Botwood
27th Jul 2007, 07:59
The point being that there is little likelihood that the great majority of the crests available on the old site will ever be used again. Now - why do we bury our history in such a manner? Where will all the crests be stored in the future - I cannot find them?
If you do not have pride in your past, you will never have faith in your future.
As Founder of the Shackleton Association and owner of my own website, I frequently get mail the likes of - "My grandfather died last year and I never knew anything about what he did ....." or "My uncle served on 210 squadron in the 60s and he turns 70 next month - he was proud of his time in Ballykelly and we were wondering if there was a chance of a photo of his favourite aircraft WL748 with a squadron crest?" I could never imagine presenting a colour photo of that aircraft at Ballykelly with MoD © plastered on it. I do produce such things for families on a regular basis, for gratis.
Badges and crests belong to the many live, dead and incapacitated that served on those units and made them known and in some cases feared . My first Squadron was 269 at Ballykelly. Our Old Comrades Association comes to an end this year with its 85th consecutive reunion since its founding. Name another unit as good as that! Now, that is military history and pride - not a saleable trademarked commodity.
Anyway, you get my drift.
John B
Ali Barber
27th Jul 2007, 08:59
You could try Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Royal_Air_Force_squadron_crests
I did a Google search for RAF Crest and got lots of hits.
Beagle-eye
27th Jul 2007, 09:22
Couple of years back we produced corporate display boards and brochure inserts with crests on for each RAF (and NATO) squadron that used our kit. There was no problem at all with MoD and they even supplied us with photographs. Only condition was that we credited MoD on a copyright statement. :ok:
John Botwood
27th Jul 2007, 11:00
Ali,
Wikpedia is very good - but where are ALL the Crests and badges.
The amount on the wikpedia link does not even start to cover the number of 'lost' items.
As for Google searches - take a rake with you when you start. The site mentioned had almost all RAF Units, Station and Squadron Crests.
John B
Ali,
Wikpedia is very good - but where are ALL the Crests and badges.
The amount on the wikpedia link does not even start to cover the number of 'lost' items.
Just out of interest, has anyone looked at the Wayback Machine to see if it's cached the old page with all the badges?
www.archive.org (http://www.archive.org)
If it has, std Crown Copyright terms as listed on the wiki page would seem to allow a concerned wikipedian to copy the images across to the wiki to ensure their continued availability.
John Botwood
29th Jul 2007, 04:56
TMJ
Thanks for suggestion.
Found the page - crests removed.
John B
Bo Nalls
29th Jul 2007, 09:00
Is this what you are looking for? (http://www.raf.mod.uk/history_old/sqn_hist.html)
John Botwood
29th Jul 2007, 23:58
'Twould be but there are only a few badges available.
I have been informed by Crown Copyright that a certificate needs to be applied for and issued for each individual private use of a crest, badge or photograph.
The crests on my site were supplied directly by the Chester herald many, many moons ago. God knows what is going to happen there.
John B