Hi all,

I´ll added the original text - even so its german.
In short, a minister in the eastern part of germany has the idea to save some money and wants to test Autogyros for police work i.e. search missions or to check traffic flow.
I´m more than irritated and would like to hear your comments.

Greetings Flying Bull
Luckily not working in Brandenburg....



Brandenburg
Polizisten in ihren fliegenden Kisten
Brandenburg testet erstmals Tragschrauber für Polizeieinsätze

Martin Klesmann

POTSDAM. Die Polizei in Brandenburg beschreitet neue Wege - und geht dabei in die Luft: Als erste in Deutschland will die märkische Polizei ab dem 1. August den Einsatz von sogenannten Tragschraubern testen. Diese oben offenen Fluggeräte sehen aus wie ein fliegender Zweierbob mit einem motorgetriebenen Propeller am Heck und einem nicht angetriebenen Rotor oder auch Drehflügel. Auf dem Flugplatz Saarmund südlich von Potsdam wird in den nächsten Monaten ausprobiert, ob Tragschrauber für die Verkehrsüberwachung, bei der Verfolgung von Straftätern oder der Vermisstensuche nützlich sein können. Auch die Vermisstensuche soll erprobt werden. Zunächst sind 40 Flüge mit einem anleitenden Piloten geplant - bei gutem und bei schlechtem Wetter. Die insgesamt vier angemieteten Tragschrauber stellen laut einem internem Projektpapier gar "eine einsatztaktische Nische" dar.

"Es handelt sich um die allererste Projektphase", bestätigte Dorothée Stacke, Sprecherin des Innenministeriums. Bisher hat die Polizei in Brandenburg allein zwei Hubschrauber Typ Eurocopter 35 zur Verfügung, die zentral nahe dem Flughafen Schönefeld in Diepensee stationiert sind. Doch der Betrieb dieser beiden Hubschrauber ist teuer: Eine Flugstunde schlägt laut Innenministerium mit 3 000 Euro zu Buche, während eine Flugstunde im Zwei-Mann-Tragschrauber nur 120 Euro Sprit- und Betriebskosten verursache. Die zwei schweren Hubschrauber hätten bei manchen Polizeieinsätzen aus Kostengründen am Boden bleiben müssen, heißt es. Denn ein Flug in die entlegenen Regionen Brandenburgs kostet viel Geld. Die Tragschrauber könnten indes dezentral in der Nähe von Polizeiwachen stationiert werden und dann wesentlich kostengünstiger fliegen, so glaubt das Innenministerium. Allerdings können die Tragschrauber anders als gewöhnliche Hubschrauber nicht senkrecht starten, sondern benötigen eine geeignete Start- und Landebahn.

Kritik kommt schon jetzt von der Gewerkschaft der Polizei: "Das ist ein Luxusprojekt", sagte Landeschef Andreas Schuster. Denn gerade erst habe man die zwei Eurocopter-Hubschrauber zum Stückpreis von fünf Millionen Euro erworben. Ein Tragschrauber könne noch nicht einmal Lasten mit an Bord nehmen - keine Wärmebildkamera, kein Geschwindigkeitsmessgerät. "Insofern dürfte man kaum etwas Beweiskräftiges feststellen können", so Schuster. Er räumte aber ein, dass es innerhalb der Polizei auch andere Meinungen gebe. So bei Sven Bogacz, Leiter des Schutzbereiches Brandenburg/Havel. Der ehemalige NVA-Pilot leitet die Projektphase mit den Ultraleicht-Fluggeräten, die immerhin eine Spitzengeschwindigkeit von 160 Kilometer pro Stunde erreichen. Eine Flugstunde mit angemietetem Piloten der Berliner Firma Aeronautix kostet 150 Euro. Eine komplette Pilotenausbildung würde mit 5 000 Euro zu Buche schlagen. Immerhin kündigte Gewerkschaftschef Schuster nun an, die erste Testphase kritisch begleiten zu wollen.

Lieblingsprojekt des Ministers

Er und andere Gewerkschafter fürchten auch um den Ruf der Kollegen. "Sie könnten sich der Lächerlichkeit preisgeben", heißt es. Vereinzelt wird in Polizeikreisen auch befürchtet, dass sich die Beamten in dem exotischen Fluggerät bei schlechtem Wetter ernsthaft erkälten könnten. Und selbst die Flugsicherheit der Geräte wird angezweifelt, nachdem vor einem Jahr ein ähnliches Modell im Havelland abgestürzt war. Dabei sind sie vom Luftfahrtbundesamt zugelassen.

Bis Ende 2007 will das Innenministerium entscheiden, ob die Tragschrauber für die Polizeiarbeit überhaupt taugen. So ist unklar, ob der Funkverkehr funktioniert. Erst wenn die Tauglichkeit erwiesen ist, sollen bis Herbst 2008 alle Einsatzmöglichkeiten des Tragschraubers getestet werden. Offenbar handelt es sich um ein Lieblingsprojekt von Innenminister Jörg Schönbohm (CDU), der mit seiner Polizei noch einmal bundesweit auffallen will.
Berliner Zeitung, 12.07.2007

For us non-German speakers, this is what Babelfish has got to say on the subject: (Unfortunately, Babelfish doesn't seem to believe in paragraphs...)


Brandenburg For the first time autogyro for police employments tests policemen in its flying crates Brandenburg Martin Klesmann POTSDAM. The police in Brandenburg takes new paths - and goes thereby into air: As first in Germany the maerkische police wants to test the use of so-called autogyros starting from 1 August. These open above aircraft look like a flying Zweierbob with a motor driven propeller at the tail and a not propelled rotor or also rotary wing. On the airfield Saarmund south of potsdam is tried out in the next months whether autogyros for the verkehrsueberwachung, with the pursuit of offenders or the missing search to be useful to be able. Also the missing search is to be tested. First 40 flights with a training pilot are planned - in good and in bad weather. Those altogether four rented autogyro represent a employment-tactical niche "according to an internal project paper". "confirmed Dorothée Stacke, spokeswoman of the ministry of the Interior concerns the all first project phase". So far the police in Brandenburg has alone two helicopters available type Eurocopter 35, which is central near the airport beautiful field stationed in Diepensee. But the enterprise of these two helicopters is expensive: A flying hour shows according to ministry of the Interior with 3,000 euro in the books, while a flying hour in the two-man autogyro causes only 120 euro sprit and operating cost. The two heavy helicopters would have had to remain with some police employments from cost reasons at the soil, it are said. Because a flight into the remote regions of Brandenburg costs much money. The autogyros could be stationed meanwhile decentralized in the proximity of police stations and be flown then substantially more economically, then the ministry of the Interior believes. However the autogyros can start differently than usual helicopters not perpendicularly, but need a suitable starting and runway. Criticism comes already now from the trade union of the police: "that is a luxury project", said national boss Andreas shoemaker. Because straight only one acquired the two Eurocopter helicopters to the unit price of five million euro. An autogyro cannot even take also on board - no thermal image camera, no speed measuring instrument to loads. "to that extent one might be able to determine hardly something proof-strong", so shoemakers. It granted however that it gives different opinions within the police also. So with Sven Bogacz, director/conductor of the save area Brandenburg/Havel. The former NVA pilot leads the project phase with the ultralight aircraft, which nevertheless reach a top speed of 160 kilometers per hour. A flying hour with rented pilot of the citizens of Berlin company Aeronautix costs 150 euro. Complete pilot training would show 5,000 euro in the books. Trade union head nevertheless announced shoemakers now to want to accompany the first test phase critical. Favourite project of the Minister It and other trade unionists are afraid also for the call of the colleagues. "you could abandon yourselves the ridiculousness", it are said. Isolated in police circles it is also feared that the officials in the exotic aircraft could catch cold in bad weather seriously. And even the flight safety of the devices is doubted, after one year ago a similar model in the Havelland had fallen. They are certified from the Federal Office of Aviation. Until at the end of of 2007 wants to decide the ministry of the Interior whether the autogyros are suited for the police work at all. Like that it is unclear whether radio traffic functions. Only if the fitness is proven, all application type of the autogyro are to be tested to autumn 2008. It obviously concerns a favourite project of Minister of the Interior Joerg Schoenbohm (CDU), which wants to be noticeable with its police again country widely. Berlin newspaper, 12.07.2007

Well, let's see. First the Brandenburger Police spents 10 million € for 2 helicopters cause "twin engined helicopters are safer". Now they find out that safety is expensive and start forcing their police officers to fly in a toy.

This entire story has the smell of corruption and nepotism... Somebody, please call the police :}

Is nepotism something that happens if you fly autogyros?:uhoh:

What a coincidence, wasn't it two police pilots being involved in an autogyro crash in Germany earlier this year near Peine? One pilot being killed the other one still suffering from his severe burns...

Can’t see the problem! Let them get on with it.

Spunk
What a coincidence, wasn't it two police pilots being involved in an autogyro crash in Germany earlier this year near Peine? One pilot being killed the other one still suffering from his severe burns...


Yes, you are almost right, but they werent on duty, that was a private mission and they crashed near Springe west of Hildesheim, where the autogiro was from.

skadi

"flying crates" have always been dangerous.:eek:

With the autogyro accident rates I can't understand how any employer could make a safety case. :uhoh:

It isn´t worth the words, just one of the "amazing" media stories and in the summer ... allways very welcome.

There is no interest in Brandenburg to use such ships real on police duty. Started as a very limited part of an exam work of a higher police officer and with the right media report ;) and your deep attention ( i awaited this thread after nearly all other networks still informed) it´s now an international affair... :) :) :)

Hi tecpilot,

you don´t understand the german mentality.
May be it started as a part of an exam, but someone must have passed the paper further on and someone else thinks, there might be a chance in money saving - and beeing in the newspapers.
Evenso every police pilot says its nonsense, politics work different and quite often the guys don´t listen to the men who have the experiance.
Where do you have your information from, that Brandenburg don´t want to use them - when they want to test them and have asked around, wheather others have experiance?
And I bet, there are lots of normal police officers around who would like to fly and who had no chance to join the helicoptersquadron. These guys could only be to willing, to get theit hobby paid for by the police.
There have been enough threads for pilots flying for food, only to build hours and the effect on the industry - it won´t be diffrent.
And looking around the german squadrons, there are quite some differences in political back up - some get the money because its tactical nessessary - others just look on the money and if nobody is in danger to die - the helicopters stay on the ground.
With this background - the story from the newspaper isn´t far fetched.


Greetings Flying Bull

Flying Bull, don´t cry!

What do you have to fear? "Police collegues which have no chance to join the helicoptersquadron"? :) :) :)

As i remember you are at first a police officer and secondly a helicopter pilot. All german police helicopterpilots have not paid their licence (incl. IR sometimes) SELF and now you are crying about "fly for food"? Are there some policepilots in Germany taking their country-paid licences and doing some low paid freelance jobs outside their duty? I say yes and this is deadly and a real problem for the few beginners and self made pilots.

If your country have paid all around the police helicopters incl. pilots and licenses it´s his right to cut whatever needed.

But stay cool, no one will use the gyro´s and sell the EC135.

Hi Tecpilot

Flying Bull, don´t cry!

I don´t cry - I´ve been in the buiseness long enough to know, that anything about moneysaving in politics breeds pain for all involved.

What do you have to fear? "Police collegues which have no chance to join the helicoptersquadron"? :) :) :)

If they haven´t had the chance, they either weren´t hot enough after the job - or sorted out by the tests. Either way, nobody I wan´t to fly an autogyro in a "police role" cause even the younger ones, which pasts the tests have a very high workload at the beginning of their carrer.

As i remember you are at first a police officer and secondly a helicopter pilot. All german police helicopterpilots have not paid their licence (incl. IR sometimes) SELF and now you are crying about "fly for food"? Are there some policepilots in Germany taking their country-paid licences and doing some low paid freelance jobs outside their duty? I say yes and this is deadly and a real problem for the few beginners and self made pilots.
Sorry, you´re are slightly mistaken. The majority get paid for, but there are the few, who started flying and paying for it, before applying for a squadron. But this would be another thread, as well as the freelancing of some police pilots. Never the less, the beginners normally won´t get the hours the freelancers do cause the employers won´t let lowtimers fly these jobs.


If your country have paid all around the police helicopters incl. pilots and licenses it´s his right to cut whatever needed.
Your view - as I´m getting older, safety is getting a more and more important point for me. And what was pronounced in the newspapers spoils every effort which was made by the ones who try to keep the safety standards high against all the ones who want to cut costs.
You don´t believe, that a live counts for the accountants - do you?

But stay cool, no one will use the gyro´s and sell the EC135.
I don´t think, that the autogyros will make it into the police - but the problem is, that the idea made it into the politics and into the minds.
Therefore it would be good, if the whole idea would go down in a big bang so that nobody is ever trying again such nonsens.

Greetings Flying Bull

Here we go:
talking about saving money.
So why don't the police hire experienced pilots who have paid for their licences themselves ?
That's normal procedure all over the world.
Talking about safety concerns:
So how come police officers get a type rating on a 902 or 135 with just 70 hours in their logbook ?
In the commercial world I know you wouldn't be allowed even to sit in a twin with less than 1000 hours.
But I guess that's an insurance issue...
So tell the politicians to change one rule and they will save millions in pilot training.

Flying Bull it´s up to you. If you find your police flying job to unsafe you can go anytime on ground patrol. The last police pilot i met talked about 80h a year :) on full pay of course.

And knowing a few dozen police pilots i have never found a single guy which have paid his license self.
That´s the business. Sign a contract, get the advantage and you have to do what the master wants.

I´m sure a lot of beginners would love to fly the gyros, if this would bring them to a CPL for nothing.

I´m sure a lot of beginners would love to fly the gyros, if this would bring them to a CPL for nothing

or get them killed trying?

Hi GoodGrief,
Here we go: talking about saving money.So why don't the police hire experienced pilots who have paid for their licences themselves? That's normal procedure all over the world.
Well, normal pilots could go on strike - police officers aren´t allowed to. Second, if you put money and knowledge in special operations it is unwanted, that the pilot can quit and takes all his sensitve knowledge with him. Third - Alan Man fitted our helicopters for NVG flying. That put a little admendment to the books - NVG-flights only permitted with two pilots.
Who should do the police work, if you only have pilots and no police officers on board?

Talking about safety concerns:So how come police officers get a type rating on a 902 or 135 with just 70 hours in their logbook? In the commercial world I know you wouldn't be allowed even to sit in a twin with less than 1000 hours.
70 hrs is a little low, they have done more hours in training for the CHPL anyway. The 1000 hours was due to the old regulations.
The smal helicopters, where you could build hours on, are gone from police aviation, because due to the technik to be transported and for safety reasons, only twins are used.
Within our squadron there is a quality management, which checks out every pilot not only within the normal flying skills, but also within tactical flying and emergencies while doing so. Young pilots will only be flying with experienced pilots until they have developped enough skills.
But we´re fortunate beeing able to run this system - other squadrons, other ways.

But I guess that's an insurance issue...So tell the politicians to change one rule and they will save millions in pilot training.
Police helicopters in germany are normally not insured - there is a special agreement, that the country itself is covering all costs in case of damage - acting like a insurance company itself.

@<hidden>
Flying Bull it´s up to you. If you find your police flying job to unsafe you can go anytime on ground patrol. The last police pilot i met talked about 80h a year :) on full pay of course.
Ha ha, you still don´t catch the point. Savings have been done for years all around the police. If you don´t hold on to and work for more safety around the job the moneysavers don´t care and reduce the safetylevel achived by now.

And knowing a few dozen police pilots i have never found a single guy which have paid his license self.
I know at least one who had a full chpl before becoming a police pilot, one with PPL, who missed only a few hours to chpl, which then were paid for.
But also police officers with ATPL were turned down because they didn´t passed the tests....
That´s the business. Sign a contract, get the advantage and you have to do what the master wants.
As a police officer you sign more than a contract - you sign for life. Advantages are good - but who wants to get these advantages get taken away?

I´m sure a lot of beginners would love to fly the gyros, if this would bring them to a CPL for nothing.
not quite sure, whether the autogyro hours would be accepted towards a chpl. The risk is, that the beginners don´t have the experience to see and avoid the situations that will kill them, especialy with a toy.

No more rumour but sad reality:

police gyrocopters (http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/tech/2007/08/23/pleitgen.germany.cheap.choppers.cnn)

:yuk::yuk::yuk:

Spunk,

After watching that clip, it looks like the Police are still just evaluating the gyrocopters.

But it does seem to be bit of a joke - all the occupants have at their disposal is a radio and the Mk1 eyeball. And heaven forbid if it might be raining when they need to go on patrol...! :uhoh:

Oh, yeah the James Bond movie really proves gyrocopters "have proven themselves in combat". Sure dummkopf!

Why are you so narrow minded ???
Police drive police cars, but also police motorcycles.
The accident rate of motorcycles is 7-fold that of the cars.
So what ???
The motorcycle will go where the car or ambulance can't.
It is faster, lighter, more agile.
The same is gyrocopter against the helicopter or FW.
Let them try it, let them go for it.
The modern gyrocopters are no "toys" !!
There are more and more of them flying around
successfully. Unfortunately they have chosen
and open frame German one, but there are
enough really mature closed cabin constructions.
http://www.celieraviation.eu/
"Horses for courses."
There are really enough police tasks to be done by a gyrocopter
instead of a helicopter,
as they are tasks for motorcycle instead of a car or ambulance.

It is faster, lighter, more agile.
The same is gyrocopter against the helicopter or FW.



Yeahh, right...