Parachute dropping/glider towing

[wrathchild666]

As a fairy recently qualified PPL, i'm obviously very keen to do some hour- building. Living in Edinburgh i'm fairly close to Strathallan, Errol and Portmoak, where various of the above-mentioned noble pastimes take place. Is it likely that parachute or gliding establishments would be willing to provide the necessary training for a keen chap like myself to perform these tasks? Bearing in mind i'd be working for free, not being a CPL holder!

[Blinkz]

Portmoak won't, I used to do a lot of flying with them and they have a couple of members fly the tug. You never know about the others tho.

[DBisDogOne]

As a PPL, you may stuggle to do this. Lots of people have thought of this as a good way to build hours for free, sadly, it doesn't work out like that most of the time. Several friends have enquired at various places around the country and the reply is fairly standard, they want a pretty experienced PPL (usually with taildragger time as well) and they often want you to be a glider pilot (to 'Silver' level, whatever that entails) already and be able to devote quite alot of time to the club. I'd say it's quite a sought after gig ('Free' flying always will be, let's be honest).

They only person I know who does glider towing is already an experienced CPL (despite being very young) and has had connections with his club for years (he's also a qualified & current glider pilot), additionally he's an extremely talented and safe pilot.

Give it a go by all means, I wish you well and hope that my 3rd party experiences aren't repeated everywhere.

[StraightLevel]

Think you need 100 hrs PIC amongst other things to be a para-dropper, but the man who will know is Keiran Brady who is Chief pilot at Strathallan.

http://www.skydivestrathallan.co.uk/

SL

[Bertie Bassett]

Keiran Brady (Chief Pilot Strathallan) may be interested in your services but you will be doing the paying - the last time I checked it was £1000 to cover the costs of the checkout/training. This was repayable at £500 per year...

The reasons behind this apparently being they have had their fingers burnt in the past by wannabes who get trained, do a few weeks and then sod off at the first hint of an airline job.

Don't shoot the messenger.

[ProfChrisReed]

Silver in gliding requires a 5 hr flight, 1000m height gain and a 50km xc flight (not necessarily all in the same flight).

Gliding clubs tend to want tug pilots to have gliding time and plenty of flying experience for a number of reasons:

1. You will have some idea what is happening at the other end of the rope. Most glider pilots I know have no power experience, so at least one of you should have some idea what's going on.

2. The glider pilot is paying the club for the tow (and your flying), and thus would like the service to help them. I was once towed by a pilot who clearly had no gliding experience and an underpowered aircraft, and we ended up miles from the field at 500 ft. If anything had gone wrong (and turning left just as I'd been hurled off to the right by a thermal nearly helped this happen) would have put me in a field and ruined my day. Similarly, taking me miles down wind and dropping me in the nice clear blue, rather than under those nasty bumpy clouds, won't make me a happy bunny.

3. Tugging is potentially quite dangerous for the tug pilot. I'm constantly aware that inattention on my part could kill him or her (the biggest danger is me accidentally getting high in the early part of the launch, which can pull the tug's tail up and stall it into the ground). Gliding clubs don't like killing tug pilots or losing tug aircraft, so plenty of experience is seen as a good thing.

4. On the other hand, the tug pilot also needs balls of steel or the female equivalent. Student pilots get given "out of position exercises", and the tug pilot needs to know when to hang on and give the student (or even sometimes the experienced pilot) a chance to recover the situation, and when it's time to cut the losses and release the tow.

5. Many tugs are tail draggers - don't know whether this is because they tow better (Robins make good tugs) or whether the hard-bitten types who tow prefer a "real" aircraft.

6. Because of all this, insurers tend to place quite high experience requirements on tug pilots.

If this gives the impression that I have great admiration for the mad men and women who give me launches, that's what I intended. They all seem to enjoy their flying, but I don't think it's an easy place for the inexperienced.

[squawking 7700]

In addition to what's been said above, it's bloody hard work, I've got a foot in both camps (three if you count some earlier parachute experience) but I'm
not that keen or needing the hours for tugging and if you've seen the state of some tug pilots after doing 35+ launches in summer you'd know why......
they virtually fall out of the cockpit at the end of the day.

If you're unfit, forget it.



7700

[IFollowRailways]

From my experience, it is virtually impossible to walk into one of the smaller gliding clubs and become a tug pilot. The usual requirements are that you are a long standing member who flys gliders as well. The larger clubs very often have different criteria. I personally know a PPL with no gliding experience who recently started aerotowing at one of these large (seven day/week operation) clubs just because he asked! Glider pilots see the aerotow as an expensive means to an end - they are trying to "Get away" ie find a decent thermal and soar. I believe some gliding experience is helpful as the glider pilot will potentially be very critical of a tuggie who places them in the wrong area, scares them to death with a low level tour of the local scenery and worst of all avoids those horrible bumpy bits! You will be tasked with getting the tug up and down in the most economical manner -without either cooking the engine on the way up or shock cooling it on the way down. You will be expected to land from an approach - go arounds are usually frowned upon, although this is not usually a problem as you will probably do the average ppl's years worth of landings in a day. As an added bonus, there may be 50 gliders soaring in the local area to avoid as well!

Taildragger experience is becoming less important as many large clubs are now using Robin tugs because of the reduced operating costs over Pawnees. They do need plenty of tarmac to get the combination airborne but climb well thereafter. The Pawnees and similar tend to be used by clubs with short or rough grass runways as rough grass knocks hell out of nosewheels, particularly when the aircraft may take off and land 40 or 50 times a day! The accidents mentioned with Pawnees were not directly aerotow related. Two of them were elderly pilots becoming incapacitated in flight and another was a traditional taildragger nose over! It is true that you can get a rough ride whilst towing and you may at times find that you are flying with a control surface deflected (usually rudder) if the glider gets out of position. The big danger is an accelerated climb by the glider (think waterskier on the end of a rope) you run out of down elevator and are rapidly pitched nose down. This is not a big problem at height, but a disaster close to the ground.
Most tuggies keep a hand very near the release during the initial climb..........

My personal favorite is still the Pawnee. http://www.pprune.org/forums/images/infopop/icons/icon7.gif

['Chuffer' Dandridge]

Sorry to sound negative but I agree with others who've posted. Have done both in my time and it's like this:

Glider towing - The only reason I ever got to do it as a young sprog (as a non Silver C holder, but with some gliding experience) was that the gliding club were hiring our aeroplane and we set the rules as to who flew it. But, I required a formal BGA checkout by a BGA Tug Pilot examiner. You need to know the ideal places where the miserable bugger being towed wants to go, so you either need to be a mind reader, or have some gliding knowledge (Silver C) and common sense. BUT if you're a doddery old fool who's over 60 years old, have very little powered flying experience or tailwheel time but you do have a Silver C, then you'll have no problem... :rolleyes:

Parachute dropping - Again, para clubs require 'some experience'. Not necessarily parachuting experience, but the experience that comes with making your own decisions and having a bit of time under your belt (so as not to have your decisions swayed by the aforementioned miserable gits down the back). You'll need to have the ability to quickly convert onto type if you're not current and pass a written exam & flight test with a BPA examiner. If you add flying within CAS into the equation, and a complex aeroplane type, the workload goes up rapidly. You need to get to the point of drop efficiently and at correct height, correct speed etc, 'deliver the goods' and back down again ready for the next drop without enjoying the view too much or cooking the engine(s)..

But both can be rewarding from a flying point of view. I still do it for fun and looking down on England from FL120 as idiots plummet back to the DZ below you, only to then try and catch them up still gives me a buzz after all these years.

Have fun:ok:

[high-hopes]

As a fairy recently qualified PPL, i'm obviously very keen to do some hour- building. Living in Edinburgh i'm fairly close to Strathallan, Errol and Portmoak, where various of the above-mentioned noble pastimes take place. Is it likely that parachute or gliding establishments would be willing to provide the necessary training for a keen chap like myself to perform these tasks? Bearing in mind i'd be working for free, not being a CPL holder!

I believe Strathallan require 100 PIC and IMC rating. You get the odd cloud between ground and FL100 in Scotland ;)

I think you get cleared into the Airway at FL100 above Strathallan by Scottish control.
Extremely friendly club, plan a trip up there and they'll be happy to speak to you. And the landings are free !

[S-Works]

Cleared into the airway on an IMC. New dispensation?

['Chuffer' Dandridge]

Cleared into the airway on an IMC. New dispensation?

Yes. Parachute pilot now has to have either a full IR to fly in the airway/TMA, or the club to have an exemption from the CAA..But the pilot MUST hold an IMC.:eek:

[Contacttower]

Does anyone know if Lasham Gliding club would be worth contacting if one is a PPL (with taildragger experience) who wants to do aerotowing but is NOT interested in the airlines?

[maxdrypower]

Have just spoken to a friend who sent out a couple of emails to N west based para clubs . One said 1000hrs and an IMC and as much taildragger time as poss as they use a Pilatus . The other said 400hrs minimum an an imc for insurance purposes

[IFMU]

A good bit of my flying has been as a tug pilot for a couple different glider clubs. As I'm in the US, I can't comment on what it takes in the UK, but some others already have. I do have some commentary on towing gliders in general.
I view towing as proficiency flying with a mission. Rather than boring holes around the pattern, the mission of launching gliders both sharpens the skills and makes you feel like you are doing something. You have to consider bringing them to good lift, keeping an eye out for traffic, keeping good situational awareness of the glider traffic already up or in the pattern, and of course the landings.
1. You will have some idea what is happening at the other end of the rope. Most glider pilots I know have no power experience, so at least one of you should have some idea what's going on.
Absolutely true that a glider pilot makes a better tow pilot all else being equal. We have had some non-glider tow pilots that were not so good. We have also had some glider rated tow pilots that didn't seem to get what was important even though they had the rating. Some, like myself, got into soaring as a result of towing first. It's like most things in aviation, you don't have to go into it knowing everything. It's best if you go into it realizing you don't know everything. But you do have to go into it with the right attitude, willing and interested to learn. You have to make a couple of mistakes along the way and learn from them.
3. Tugging is potentially quite dangerous for the tug pilot....
4. On the other hand, the tug pilot also needs balls of steel or the female equivalent....
There is some danger, accident reports bear this out. Most of your exposure is while you are low, because then you have the least amount of time/options on what to do. I find not many people get so out of shape on the end of the rope that I feel in danger. I am more worried about a midair on a busy day than somebody pulling me into the ground due to sheer incompetence. I don't know about the balls of steel, I certaintly don't qualify, especially as I sail headlong into middle age.
In addition to what's been said above, it's bloody hard work, I've got a foot in both camps (three if you count some earlier parachute experience) but I'm
not that keen or needing the hours for tugging and if you've seen the state of some tug pilots after doing 35+ launches in summer you'd know why......
they virtually fall out of the cockpit at the end of the day.
There is truth in this. In my old club, we were on the whole day. First ones there, last ones to leave. It was a lot better if there was another tug pilot to take an hour late in the afternoon, that break meant a lot. Since I've moved, my new club has 4 hour shifts. Much more fun, much safer. Too much of a good thing sometimes spoils the fun.
The picture I get is that if you join a gliding club, learn to fly a glider for the enjoyment of it, do a tail dragger conversion after your PPL, get your hours up on the PPL and do some training specifically for glider towing then you wouldn't be in a bad position to fly the tug for your gliding club a little way down the line. It isn't a walk in job from what I have found out and you would have to want to become part of the gliding scene to make it all worth it.
G-EMMA, you have got it. This is the way to do it. I would not recommend towing just as a way to build hours. It's another way to do some enjoyable flying, to improve some of your skills, and to be part of a social flying group. This is why I tow. It's good.
My personal favorite is still the Pawnee.
The pawnee is a sweetheart of an airplane. Strong, climbs well, very forgiving both in manuvering and landing.
There are some downsides to towing, if that's all the flying you tend to do. My straight & level flying went unexercised for about 7 years. I'm getting a handle on that again. Not much cross country as a tow pilot. In several hundred hours of towing most of it has been within 2-3 miles of the field. I've done three off-site aero retrieves in about 14 years.
Ultimately, it's fun. One of the best jobs you can have at a glider club.
-- IFMU

[Spruit]

IFMU Said:

I've done three off-site aero retrieves in about 14 years.

please excuse my ignorance here but what does one of these entail?

Sounds very interesting! (I'm probably wrong)

Thanks in advance,

Spru!

[Sedbergh]

Glider runs out of lift, outlands in "large" flat smooth field with short(ish) grass (another airfield is really best!):)


Glider pilot doesn't have enough friends to come for him with trailer/belongs to one of the large clubs where helping each other is unheard-of/is pressed for time/has money to burn/doesn't want the hassle of derigging/doesn't want to miss the bar opening (select which ones are applicable or add more reasons as required).


Gets permission from farmer (hopefully), checks field for size,slope, surface,stock, wind direction, wires etc etc


Phones his gliding club (has to be one with several tugs clearly) which sends a tug to collect himself and glider. Tug lands in field, gets out rope. Glider pilot hopefully finds someone to hold his wings level or the surface is smooth enough to drag a wingtip along the ground until ailerons bite (not recommended), take off.


They fly home


So it basically involves the tug pilot landing in an unknown field. Piper Porno is definitely the best option (also the best aircraft in which to hit a hedge if field wasn't large enough!)

[DBisDogOne]

ContactTower

Co-incidently, I did (or rather tried to do - was screwed by crap weather) a glider course at Lasham a month back, as a qualified (140+hr) PPL they were keen to point out (dropping large hints) they were short of tug pilots. Apparantly there was a waiting list but isn't one now and were trying to get me interested. So they may be worth a try if you are keen. They have a couple of nice Robins, a very smart Cub 180 (which I would love to fly) and a Pawnee.

Look at their website and navigate to the Tug pilots notes/training (something like that) to have a look at their training requirements, they are quite extensive and will require money from you to do it. So it's not just a matter of flashing the old PPL and logbook and having a couple of check flights.

Bear in mind, tugging is not for the faint-hearted and from what I've seen, can be very hard work (esp. on competition days) requiring some degree of stamina, commitment and dedication to the cause (of gliding). Also, consider that the flying is very much: take-off, up to 2000', drop, land, repeat, for some people - myself included - this is not what we fly for and personally, I would get very bored very quickly, hence I'm not interested but if you are, give Lasham Gliding Society a call, it may be right up your street.

Whatever you choose, I wish you well. Good Luck.

As an aside, I've been told quite a few glider clubs prefer not to use CPL/wannabe CPL's as they tend to be enthusiastic right up to the point they get the call from FlyRyanEasyThompsonJetBe whereupon they vanish overnight leaving the club sans Tugger. However, check locally, every club has it's own rules/bias/preferences. This also includes how much glider experience is wanted, some want Silver level some just want 'Some experience' - unspecifed.

[Contacttower]

Thanks for that DBisDogOne that was really helpful of you :).

I'd love to have a go at some gliding....and I live quite close to Lasham so they would be the obvious ones to contact. I like the sound of the 180 cub...only on the 135 at the moment.

[DBisDogOne]

No problem, I'm going probably going back to Lasham to have another go at a weeks course again next year (they start in April), the instructors I met (Peter & Darcy) were excellent. Lasham also has a simple but natty simulator which is good for teaching cable break recoveries.

To be honest, once you've flown powered a/c, gliders are straightforward, they do hone your rudderwork though and there are a few oddities, such as speeding up to land!! (Eh? says the power pilot) and the scary 'First time on the winch launch' experience. Overall, I think it's a worthwhile thing for any power pilot to do, even if you only aim to go solo locally as I wanted to do.

As you are in Winchester, you are more local than me and it only took me an hour to get there. May even see you there. (Might even join just to fly-hire the Cub!!!).

Be seeing you....

dB

[IFMU]

please excuse my ignorance here but what does one of these entail?
It's just flying out to another airport to bring somebody home. Thinking back on it, I've actually done 4. Two at real airports, two at farm/ultralight strips. Twice we've had somebody run the wing for us, and twice we didn't. Not having a wing runner is a skill that the average 14 year old in my club is good at.

Piper Porno is definitely the best option
There's a piper model I'm not familiar with. Sounds distracting! I've done 3 retrieves with a pawnee, one with a cub. One of the retrieves I wish I had the cub rather than the pawnee. It was a short, narrow, very sloped farm strip. It sloped up to the north. At the north end, there were big trees. Wind was from the south. Between the trees and the slope, the only practical way to land was North. It took me two tries to get the pawnee in. Getting out was a breeze, between the downhill run and the headwind on takeoff. The cub would have been much easier to land.

-- IFMU

[MIKECR]

Did 23 aerotows today, mostly to 4000'(a couple higher!), feeling rather tired now, got to do it all again tmrw though!:\:ugh:

[MartinCh]

I'm so envious.

I gave up on paragliding when I moved to the UK.
I eyed microlight club east of Edinburgh two years ago.
Gliding (soaring) is the best recreational flying ever. No engine howling, just pure flying. I'd like to do some gliding and FW PPL later on.

Yeah, I'm going to do rotary PPL as it's part of my career plan over coming years. But glider towing and gliding is great. Anyone seen Ushuaia with Nicolas Hulot gliding about? Yes, you guys know what it's like.
Awesome.

I find it very interesting way to do some gliding for fun and up the hours helping out in the club as FW PPL with all the training etc.

As I can see, tailwheel planes such as Cub or Pawnee are useful to be familiar with. Shouldn't be a problem later :-D

as for 'reading' the skies, I've got some touch already from some PG flying. Though, very frustrating not being able to reach thermals far from take off hill, when the wind speed or direction aren't best. Or too strong wind for basic paraglider, taking off right into thermal licking the hill or just sinking to LZ when soaring in front of hill isn't an option or easy.

What better way to kill the non-flying blues (was hard to push out paragliding from my head) during week at school or work? All in the UK.
Popping in to local club on a weekend or so and up we fly :-D

Safe flying

[Piper.Classique]

Female equivalent of balls of steel?

Iron bladder?

Titanium titties?

Dunno. Once did seven hours straight in the Lasham 180 cub.
Only stops were for fuel for the cub, water and a wee for me.

[JBGA]

The bottom line is there are hundres of wannabe tug pilots queueing up at gliding clubs to fly the tug. Who wouldn't want to get dozens of hours and hundreds of rotations in for free, especially at a gliding club which isn't tied up with procedures and ATC etc. So most clubs already have experienced glider pilots and power pilots from within their ranks and from other gliding clubs in the country queueing up at the door. Even if you are one of the lucky ones and you get your name on the tug pilot roster you can usually only expect to get a few days a month. If you can't fly midweek that drops to half a day once a month.

So it's not necessarily that flying the tug is difficult, or that power pilots can't learn to be good tug pilots, or that gliding clubs have a clique but that if you have little or no gliding experience there is always going to be someone else who is better than you.