Beijing PanAm - disrespect and humiliation of instructors

[shai2000]

Hey guys.

For you who are planning to work for Beijing PanAm in the future here is some new info that may change your mind!!!

This week, two flight instructors who performed every single required job related task, test, and training to become operational Flight instructors in China has been fired.:uhoh:

Those guys and numerous others have been waiting for an extremely long time for the arrival of the CAAC commercial pilot license that allows them to perform the flying duties as instructors (some have been waiting for more then four month).
An important point that is worth mentioning is that while waiting for their license after having passed both Chinese written and flight tests, they were not allowed to start performing any flying duties as others have recently been allowed to do.
Flight instructors have been told that having a "validation" of the foreign certifications as well as passing both written and flying tests is required before any flight duties are to be allowed. This information can be referenced by reading PanAm contract under "Schedule 1, Qualifications."(By the way, the contract here worth nothing). In spite of passing all CAAC examinations, they have not been allowed to fly.

On the contrary, we have heard of and witnessed newly hired instructors that have not yet passed all the required tests still obtain validations of their Foreign Certificates and be given the opportunity to start flying. While others have waited in good faith and watched their hard-won skills deteriorate over time, these newly hired instructors have started flying and instructing as quickly as 2 months after their initial arrival at Beijing PanAm.:ugh:

Beijing PanAm has not respected the contract and also has been ignored with no consideration given to priority delegated by seniority towards flying duties.

The reason for being fired was that they refused to move to another base until they will get their license. since they can't fly at other base why should they move and teach ground school all day long (as they did until now) when they have been defined under the contract as flight instructors and not ground instructors .
The guys have been fired because they are too good for the company, sounds weird :eek:? Well this is china and that's how things work here.

Beijing PanAm terminated their contract and kicked them out of the hotel while refusing to fulfill the contract terms.
Basically they didn't get anything that was in the contract and had to find their own way back home, embarrassed, angry and without any money for the flight ticket.

Guys, Beijing PanAm are the most corrupt company in Asia and probably all over the world ,People are leaving every month and there is no more new instructor on the way.
We should all fight against this corrupt company to prevent that kind of incident to be repeated in the future,

Think twice, before you apply for this job.

Shai2000

[Efilroftolip]

Since when does BPIAA issue licences? How long have you been there to actually believe this ****? If you want to complain about anything or anyone, that should be starting with the CAAC. Of course you were not allowed to start flying with students, you don't have a CAAC licence, validation ,verification, temporary or permanent! But I guess, from what it seems in your thread, that's not the issue... And as far as I know, you are still staying in the hotel... not been kicked out as you say. If you want to post a thread, especially when you advertise yourself as preaching the truth, make sure you actually do so! And regarding contract compliance, maybe you should read it again, or not have signed it from the begining. You have been reported as one of the laziest guy out there, so stop complaining to a company that keeps on paying you full salary while you are doing absolutelly nothing. Oh, and by the way, I hear there are still new instructors coming... I will not post any other thread on this, I've got better things to do and students to teach.

V.

[Genghis Khan]

Hey, V, maybe YOU should get your facts straight before posting a reply. Are you one of the brain-washed, inexperienced employees they promoted with promises of grandure, King Air's and Citations? I can guarantee you instructors came here well after these guys that did not have to pass any written test or check ride that are instructing! The Bautou Base is full of these guys.

Lazy? Give me a break. Maybe you should talk to the students who went to the US as to their laziness. Remember the countless hours these guys spent working with them on their english skills to prepare them for the FAA tests? Remember the sh%$hole they got dumped in at Handan that a rat couldn't survive in?

If I got lied to as much as the chinese management lies to the instructors here, I wouldn't work so much as lifting a finger either. I know for a fact that Howard authorized extensions in hotels and authorized airline tickets home to instructors he personally terminated. At least he had a little compassion for those guys after the way they were treated by the chinese. At least when he and Pat were in charge, the instructors were give a little respect. You don't throw a dog into the streets, dude!! Unless of course your Panam chinese management.

Avoid this company at all costs!!! Everything they tell you is a lie! Believe the corruption, because it is alive and well here. Believe what you hear about the 500 hour pilot in command of the Citation that falsified logbook records for military students and his own medical certificate! He is protected by the chinese staff and building jet time every day. Mr. V, do you deny these facts? Please reply with your views on this subject. Please tell the truth!

Instructors are leaving this place by the dozens. The contract is worthless, and you have no protection whatsoever. For those of you still here, get out while you still can; I am! Jobs are abundant now. You don't have to deal with this corruption any longer.

For those thinking about coming to Panam; don't even consider it as an option.

[dartagnan]

i got an invitation 2 yeas ago by panam to come and teach.
after reading comments by canadian pilots, you want run far away.

you work 16h a day for less 2000$.
5$ an hour?

[pfd99]

Reading Flight and Aviation job search I see Clark aviation is looking for flight instructors and simulator instructors for MCC and LOFT on the new MPL program. They also have a A320 FFS made by CAE so chances maybe of getting jet time on the sim or even a rating.

pfd99

[flytoo]

hello Ladies and gentlemen!

The rumor is that a school in Jordan is coming to China to interview about 20 instructors from Beijing Panam this month. True or false??
Anybody has infos about it? It will be a major kill if half of them leave for greener pastures. New openings for the ones staying in China, soon you get a senior flight instructor position with a PPL only!
take care Shai2000 and have a nice training!

Flytoo

[captainred]

Flytoo

How can you spread such ridiculous rumors about a representative from a jordanian school coming all the way from jordan to baotou to interview 20 instructors?
Who in their right minds would do such a thing?

Let me tell you straight, you are wrong, it is not 20 but 30 instructors who are going to have an interview with the jordanian flight school rep.

A special conference room has already been booked in the poshest hotel in baotou, where the interviews and the screening process will take place.

As to the qualifications required you mentioned let me tell you that you are wrong again: an ICAO PPL holder will be at least manager of flight standards.

Actually the current manager of flight standards in baotou has NO multi engine experience, he failed all his written exams and of course he did not even pass his CAAC flight check ride. Yet he will be soon trained on the king air.

But he his very good mates with the chief flight instructor there, who will be trained on the king air with NO multi engine time, and 2000 hours on ultralights.
The same chief flight instructor has already re-written the king air sop's.

See you in jordan!

Captainred

[flytoo]

Hello !

Like I said, it is a rumor!
And this site is exactly the place for rumors.

The facts are that the CFI is going to come to China for interviews.
Will it be in Beijing or Baotou? When? How many will be interviewed and leave?
many questions: answers will come later, patience is always required!
Have nice flights in St Maartens! Or Curuacao! say hello to the islands!
take care and tot zins,

Flytoo

[Genghis Khan]

Dude, you are so right! Do you think I could get a job as a dispatcher? I don't have any experience, but I think I'd make a great dispatch manager. Maybe after kissing the right person's a$$, I could advance to lead mechanic. I have lot's of experience working on bicycles in the streets of Shijiazhuang. :ugh:

If the rumor is true about this Jordan interview, count me as number 31!! Who's the contact, Dude?

[captainred]

The following is not a rumor

Two of the most senior BPIAA instructors have just been fired.

Why?

They have reported, as they are supposed to do, maintenance problems on the aeroplane they fly.

Beware BPIAA instructors: dispatch, "leaders", maintenance, they are all against us.

Mass resignations, mass firings, mass exodus to jordan. This company is commiting suicide. I wonder if it's not on purpose...

[captainred]

Come to think of it, that's four instructors fired in less than a week's time.

Who's next?

Run before you get the axe!

[captainred]

It now seems that the two senior instructors already mentioned are the two king air pilots.
What is the company trying to tell us?
Falsify log books, suck up to the right people and you will have a brilliant future with us?
Work hard, be honest, stick around, and you will be fired because you report the problems you find on the airplane you fly.
What kind of a company are we working for?
How far will this go?
I have already made up my mind.
I am not waiting for the people to come from Jordan, I am flying there to meet the chief pilot in person.

[captainred]

I could not agree more with Higher/Faster.

One of Panam manager was once heard to say during a meeting: fly the aeroplane until it breaks:D

Some time ago a pilot went to ask maintenance if they could add oil in the engine of his da40 only to be told, no it doesn't need oil.:ugh:

As to the manager of the high performance department, higher/faster is right again. By doing this he is actively supporting panam's slack attitude towards maintenance and flight safety.
I hope that person is fully prepared to accept the entire responsibilty of his actions.

[ZBOWorDie]

I am no friend of PanAm and I believe the feeling is mutual, but do consider the King Air pilots are not the angels portrayed in this thread.

These are the same two pilot who flew more than 3 months with the above airplane issues without complaint, and only after being reprimanded for continual deviation from regulations, did they decide to write up the aircraft. Sounds very safety conscious to me or at least logbook conscious. This is more likely the reason for the grounding.

One of these two has had to write more reports to the CAAC for constantly being off course, off altitude and generally off center than the entire instructor staff combined. Which probably cost the company 2000 packs of Chinese cigarettes and Chinese liquor from the company's bribery slush fund.

These two fine airmen were also overheard discussing low intelligence of new instructors and their inability to pass the CAAC written test, which has changed significantly since these two had taken the test.

One of the was reprimanded for purposely spinning an airplane not certified for spins, and then lied to try and cover it up. You know who you are cowboy;)

PanAm is full of problems, I'm certain this thread can continue indefinitely, so good luck to all you with interviews scheduled. Hope to see you there.

[Imotep]

Hmmm...good point. I'm curious about this remark from Higher/Faster;

"It has been reported many times that the pressurization system is leaking considerably, that the oxygen system is doubtful, that the avionics are unusable in flight, other than a GPS 5 or 6 years outdated in a country where GPS as the only means of navigation is not authorized, that the compass is unreliable and probably more!!!"

Where's the safety issue here, much less the regulatory issue, ie; inoperative instruments and equipment? Reported "many times", yet our two EXPERIENCED, PROFESSIONAL KING AIR PILOTS continued to fly the airplane! What were you thinking, guys? Build that turbine time...I'm indestructable because I can fly a King Air. The hell with my passengers; they can suffocate if the pressurization system fails.

I knew there was more to this than what was being posted on here. My opinion, they should be tried for attempted murder!!

[harry_pothead]

CaptainRed,

You are a moron.

I don't know how many examples I can give, of how much of a complete spastic you are...but let me give it a go...

You said:

The following is not a rumor

Two of the most senior BPIAA instructors have just been fired.

They havent been fired. Although it's possible they will be - they have just been grounded, big difference.
This company has a bad enough rep without twits like you jumping to conclusions like this.

Beware BPIAA instructors: dispatch, "leaders", maintenance, they are all against us.

You think they are all against us eh? Sounds a bit paranoid to me humpty dumpty. Maybe you've been smoking too much Hookah again? I'll trade pprune names with you if you want...
They arent against us, the unfortunate fact is....they are just like you - retarded.

Mass resignations, mass firings, mass exodus to jordan. This company is commiting suicide. I wonder if it's not on purpose...

Mass firings? 2 people? umm...ok?:D
Mass exodus to jordan? We'll see...but not yet.

For someone who claims to live in the Caribbean, I would of at least thought you could spell the damn word properly.

There have been valid points made on this thread, if you want to make one of your own - then at least get your facts straight before you fire off your BS to the aviation community.

I hope to christ that you bugger off to Jordan. Failing that, I will see you on Wednesday. :(

[The_Flyin_Kiwi]

I must say it is interesting to see these threads develope. It is quite amusing when you go back about a year through the threads on this subject (Panam). Some posts that were written by people planning to go to Panam accused Panam instructors of being negative and ungreatful. Now these people are at Panam and now they realise that what was said is true! But good on you for having the guts to go there and give it a go. If you dont try then you never know!

I know that for some people who read them it is difficult for them to comprehend that what is being said is in fact true. For those who have not been in the Panam situation you cannot possible comprehend it! For those who have never worked at Panam don't just think these instructors are being negative or ungreatful. That is not the case at all. I know people tend to become emotive when they have just lost their job and been humiliated and yeah... maybe their view of things is not exactly straight and could be somewhat bias. But read between the lines. People would not be so stupid as to make up a bunch of lies. Look at what the majority of posts are saying.

In my experience ..... I was one of the first instructors at Panam in September 2004. We were all excited about the prospects of being the first certified foreign instructors ever in China. We had high hopes for the company and for ourselves with the airlines in China. We were told we would be flying 120+ hours a month and that as a senior instructor most of the time would be a King Air ;) AND after one year we would get the chance at the right hand seat of an A320.

Once we started flying things started to go down like a lead balloon. We were expected to go flying with shocking visibility no VFR maps, no IFR charts, no security passes and no Chinese licence. Immediately corners started to be cut and instructors were being asked to sign things off in logbooks that had not been completed. By far most of the instructors refused to do so. Many instructors waited more than 6 months for their licences .... I personally waited for more than one year and was NEVER issued a Chinese licence despite passing three flight tests and the written exams first go.

We started to see extremely low hour pilots appear on the scene and be put in management positions. Some of these inexperienced pilots wanted to (and did) go flying in extreme icing conditions in aircraft with no de icing equipment. Those who spoke out against such things were labelled as being "LAZY" and "Unproductive" and it was decided that it was up to the CFI's discretion whether we flew in icing conditions. People who flew in conditions below the CAAC met minima with no alternate and at night were openly promoted despite the breeches of safety within 4 hours of the first CFI resigning.

Things have even got worse since then :=. Those who falsify training records,make false entries in logbook using other peoples licence details and forging their signatures (I know for a fact my licence details were used and signature was forged to falsify logbooks and training records for training that was not even done), those who send other people to represent themselves for a medical check and those who have near miss with a 737 are promoted and given a Citation rating despite them having less hours and experience than your average PPL.

I remember one time I refused to fly in icing conditions when the forcaste viz was 3000m reducing below 1000m. The "ALL KNOWING" dispatcher told me "But you must fly". When I refused to fly the dispatcher then went to one of the directors and asked that I be fired for "Being Lazy". The safety issues were too endless to list. It was like living in a mad house. When the DA42s came things got even worse:} ... I saw instructors almost getting into fist fights over places on the list to just to get a flight in them. I remember thinking at one point "If a$$ holes were aircraft I could easily be mistaken and think I was working at a flight school" It would get to the point where you think "This cant possibly get any worse" .... and then it would :eek:!

I was eventually fired from Panam too for my refusal to fly without a Chinese licence and bringing to the attention of management matter concerning safety. For me it was the best thing that they could have done for me. It got me out of a diabolical situation. I was much better out off there.

Things at Panam will never change. You are dealing with a totally different mentality. The Chinese do not think the same as us "Laowei" (Foreigners). The Chinese management will continue do the things the way they want to do them. They will continue to put people in management positions that they can manipulate. That is how it will always be .. that is the Chinese way. Look at China's history and communism. It is ABSOLUTE CONTROL ... for some Chinese that is all they have known and that is all that they know to do! Trying to change it is like banging you head against the great wall of China.:ugh:

So to those have been fired, those who will be fired, those who of you who have been cheated and lied to and stabbed in the back colleagues. Don't let Panam poison your view of China! Don't let Panam break you, don't let it get you angry and bitter ... Dont let Panam win! Take a step back from the situation and look at things objectively. Take the positive aspects of the experience and be thankful. Take the negative experiences and let it make you a stronger person so you can move on in life more prepared.

And to those who are thinking of going to Panam to work. My advice is think very hard before you make a decision. Do your home work. Read the threads and get in touch with those that are there. Make an informed decision. And if you read the threads on here about Panam and think "NO way! it cant be as bad as that" ... you would be right! It is not as bad as that .... it is worse :}!

[alphabravocharlie42]

Dear Harry Pothead, Imotep, ZBOWor Die,

Let me reply to you.

First harry pothead's location is very interesting: you are using the name of an instructor, a man who is currently working for Panam. You are mentioning that you are staying in a lower part if his body.
Have you ever imagined that he may read this post? What will he think? What will his friends and family think?

You are using insults in order to try and justify yourself.
Here are some of the words that are being used: moron, retarded, christ, hell, angels, attempted murder. Not really what one would call sound and rational argumentation, but more like personal hatred.

Those 2 people you mention always make their opinions known.
How many times did they tell management about problems and issues?

They will probably be fired... for what reason? For reporting maintenance problems? Everytime this airplane has had a problem, that problem has always been reported.
But it seems that this time it was too much for the head of maintenance who is also a vice president and manager of the high performance department.

Are all the chinese against us? Is there a conspiracy?
Are the chinese retarded? Like captainred? Insults again.
You are saying the chinese are retarded, are you?
They are reading pprune too.

Some one has obviously spent time checking spelling mistakes. So why dont you go and spend some time to check all the TCOs and log books that have been falsified. You can use your talents of investigation there.

The two pilots you mention are the ones who told their management about forged entries.
What was done then?
A manager's girlfriend and the forgerer himself were sent to the USA for CJ1 training.
A cover up?

How many reports concerning the King Air flights were sent to the CAAC?
How many deviations?
Has the school ever been shut down because of the King Air? NO
Has the school ever been shut down because of the CJ1? YES, the day it arrived in shijiazhuang with none other than the log book master himself flying.
There was a near miss with a 737. And in this case yes a report was sent to the CAAC.


Spinning an aeroplane that is not certified for spins is an accusation based on hearsay. There has never been any reprimand, because it just did not happen.

As to accusing two pilots of discussing low intelligence of newcomers and their inability to pass their caac written exams, this is so ridiculous as to be almost childish.
How old are you?

If those 2 pilots had been flying recklessly and off center constantly, why did not their managers stop them then?

Imotep your reply does not make any sense: if the king air problems are neither a safety issue nor a regulatory issue why should they be tried for attempted murder?

ZBOWor die you say they are log book conscious, yet every body knows they stopped flying at least 3 times to point out problems.

[The_Flyin_Kiwi]

Come one guys! Most of us are pilots and we are meant to be professionals. Lets not lower ourselves to name calling, personal insults and slagging each other off.

The two King Air instructor pilots that have been grounded are professional guys with professional attitudes. This situation is not what it would seem. There is no way these guys would be flying at 20,000ft plus if thought they would get a depressurization. Who in their right mind would do that?

As far as these guys doing spins in non certified aircraft ..... That accusation is false and defaming. That never happend when I was there and before I left these guys were only flying in the DA42s. and then moved on to the King Air.

I worked with these guys. From working with them I know that if there was a problem with an aircraft was deemed a safety risk they would not fly. They dont have a death wish.

Read the post by BananaPilot. The situation is not that these pilots are grounded because they flew with maintenance issues. That is not the case at all. These two guys have squawked problems on the aircraft and have been accused of doing so because they want an excuse not to fly. In other words they are being accused of being lazy and unproductive.



Cheers ... safe flying!

[alphabravocharlie42]

Anyway the point is that they clearly have been grounded for having mentioned the problems.

[captainred]

Quote from bananasthepilot:

Until further notification from myself or VP XXXXXXXXXX, your flight
privileges have been revoked and you have been place in grounded
status as a result of King Air maintenance discrepancies.

XXXXXXXXXX(Vice manager of the High performance).

this needs a little translation: it means: I, your boss am going to ground you because you have not kept quiet about the problems concerning the aeroplane you fly.

please read bananasthepilot's post again carefully: 2 pilots are grounded because of "maintenance discrepancies" and the email is cc'd to :
XXXXXXXXXX(High performance Vice president and also manager of the maintenance dept); XXXXXXXXXX(Flight safety officer, Training manager)

This post by bananasthepilot could be a copy/paste of the email the two king air guys received.
If this is indeed the real thing what an insult it is for them and the profession.

[alphabravocharlie42]

Speaking about insults* thats what the 3 posters (harry potead, Imotep, ZBOWordie) did in addition to writing false accusations.

FIRST
They appeared all together within 1 hour and have posted only once.
They use the same vocabulary:
ZBOWordie says "not the angels..."
Imotep: "the hell with my passengers..."
Harry potted "I hope to Christ..."
The 3 of them refer to religion* (no other poster did through the thread) and amazingly they are all against the king air pilots*.

That is very interesting. Is that the same person?


SECONDLY
So now who is mentioned in this terrible and insulting email which revoked the king air pilot flight privilege?

A--2 king air pilots,
B--Vice President of the High Performance,
C--Manager of the High Performance,
D--Safety officer (the man who was once general manager and sent his girl friend to be trained to be a Jet captain with less than 800 hours Total Time and his friend the current HP manager with less than 1200 hours).

Between A, B, C, D who likes insulting*, refers to the religion*, and want to give troubles to the king air pilots*?

Personaly I think that the 3 posters and D are the same person.

[Always Moving]

Nothing is black or white.

When people want something (like turbine / multi time) they are willing to broom under the rug certain things. When you do not need them or had enough your standards are higher and you are not willing to broom under the rug no more, it is understandable. Just as that the management think, well you took it up the axx and now that you had enough you do not want it anymore..... if you were willing before you should be willing now and if you do not you will be fired.
You shouldn’t compromise those standards to begin with, now deal with the consequences

Since day one in PanAm the safety reports were "confidential" so safety mismanagement is well known.
Did they ever overhaul the six planes or so that had prop strikes? I do not think they overhauled any of them!

Insurance is mandatory in China. I am still wondering how is PanAm insuring the King Airs and the CJ? May be they are not insured!

Not everyone who post here are angels and I think we should put the NAMES of people here, so in the future people know how this people are and they will be accountable for what they have done to aviation. As far as I am concern most of that flight time is shi_

I think we should start putting names and last names of the PROVEN guilty parties

We could talk all day about PanAm, bottom line is, It has bad Chinese management, opportunistic westerners management and pilots with a brown substance in the nose. If you want a holiday in China and you are a pilot go to PanAm (free one way ticket and some cash to spend) if you want to do anything else stay away. My 2 cents.

Where do they get their money from? They produce VERY LITTLE and they spend millions literally!

[Always Moving]

Another thing!

Look at the number of postings that some people have and how long they have been members of this forum.

I did not post to stir things up, it is just facts about what is going on in that cloudy company.

[nijiggajigga]

I just wanted to comment on the comment about the level of intelligence of the new instructors that have come to Pan Am...

I have never failed any FAA written exam, and every exam I have taken, PPL, I-A, CPL, FOI, CFI, and CFII, scored both over 90%..

I studied as hard as I could for the CAAC exams, however there are several issues...

Unlike the FAA tests, the CAAC does not issue any question bank for you to study. Nor do they tell you what they will ask on the test.. basically you go in with the assumption that you will be taking a specific test, such as an instrument test, or a commercial test.

I have failed the instrument test a total of 6 times now... each test, is 80 questions. Out of the 80 questions, I average about 20 questions straight from the FAA database. Some of them may pertain to instrument flight, but most of them won't. The remaining 60 questions will ask you about ICAO and it's history.. or they will ask you questions regarding if you feel sick to your stomach, what do you do... basically, they ask you questions that have nothing in common with that of an instrument exam. All logical countries in the world will test your knowledge of aircraft systems, instrument operations, navigation, cross country flights, but not the CAAC exam. Their test is primarily for the focus of one thing, to ask you questions about "China's Regulations." I went to Beijing to meet with the CAAC officials in charge of their tests, and I asked them, "Why do you give instrument exams, with no questions about instrument flying, IMC, weather theory, weather services, etc?" And I will put all my licenses on the line, I **** you not, they said, "We know you are already instrument rated, we want to ask you questions on our rules!"

Apparently, their rules are more important than testing our knowledge of things pertinent to flight.

What gets me more confused is, apparently, anyone who holds an instructors licensed is believed to be an ATP pilot as well, so when we took our Commercial exams, most questions were that from an ATP test.. and not just any questions, again these questions were questions that were not given to you in english. There are several issues with this test... and out of a question bank of over 5000 questions, 4000 of them are translated by a person behind a computer who has no knowledge other than basic English!

And for those instructors who took the easier exams last year, shame on you thinking we're taking the same exam. Each instructor has the same knowledge of another. We all hold instructors certificates. I won't comment on teaching ability, but this is strictly knowledge. 80% of instructors failed these exams since November.

Now to move on about management; you can't always blame them. We all make mistakes. I'm writing this reply from a hotel near Baotou's airport. All the other foriegn instructors are in the other major district of Baotou, 30 minutes from me, in a much nicer hotel, surrounded by resturants that do business with foreigners (IE English menu/English waiters). Now the reason I'm in a ****ty hotel is the result of a foreign manager dropping the ball, and a selfish Chinese Manager. The hotel that the foreigners stay at cost 328 RMB a night, however because Pan Am is renting around 40 rooms, they are getting a big discount, at 100 rmb per night... so as a result, this Chinese Manager thinks it's okay to put me in a hotel room that actually costs 100 RMB with no discount.. why? Because the only room available in the foreigner hotel is a suite, and since I'm only staying in Baotou for two or three nights, I get a **** hotel, because maybe the other instructors would get jealous. Well I don't think they would be, but if he is concerned about them, he should be concerned about me being on the other side of town in a **** hotel, near no foreign restaurants, in a hotel where 0% of the staff speak English. I'm jealous of the other instructors because they sleep well at night, and I'm in a room facing the busiest street in this district, and the damn Chinese drivers love using their horn on their cars.. not to mention, I'm on company business, and I still have to pay for a damn cab, when the other instructors ride the bus for free; and NO I'm not being reimbursed...

The company has screwed themself so much that only recently they held a meeting at night with the instructors in an attempt to figure out what problems we have.. it's an honorable step, but it's too late. Pan Am has maybe until the end of the year until there are no flight instructors left.

PanAm's biggest downfall: Appointing leaders/managers/vice-presidents with no prior experience in flight schools, no prior education in general aviation or flight schools, appointing people into positions that don't know what their job requires them to do, and appointing people into positions that don't know how to do their job.

For a country where flight school is a new concept, it would seem logical that they listen and take the advice of people who have been in flight schools (IE us, the instructors) because we all have more experience in this training environment than any Chinese managers. But if your Chinese, and you were in the Air Force, or if you have a lot of money, you too can become a Vice-President for Pan Am.

[JulieFlyGal]

Nothing is black or white.

Nice post. :) With the pilot shortage around the world, why would anyone consider going there just to build hours? Geesh, I heard you can practically walk out of a flying school with a bare CPL/IR and then get a flying job in Europe or the States (but not in Ozzier land unfortunately). Those lucky enough to be from those states with a JAA or FAA FCL should be laughing. Why go through the pain with working in China?

[Always Moving]

That option is only open for FAA license with right to live in the US.
Europe is another can of worms.....

[captainred]

Quote from nijiggajigga (http://www.pprune.org/forums/member.php?u=173525):

"Now the reason I'm in a ****ty hotel is the result of a foreign manager dropping the ball ..."


Yes, the panam foreign managers have dropped the ball, not just about finding decent accomodation for their instructors, but about everything else.

Why is that?

Well it is my opinion that they would rather compromise with the chinese "leaders" in order to preserve their own little privileges ( like a suite in a hotel ) than mention problems.

People who mention problems and speak up are just trouble makers, who upset the delicate balance of things, who destroy the harmony within panam.

The people who actually want to work for this company are destroying the harmony by trying to improve efficiency.

[flytoo]

hello!

Imagine that Panam students are going to fly A320 or B737 soon!
The scenario might be worse!
have good flights!
Enjoy teaching


Flytoo

[spacepodlife]

"I am not waiting for the people to come from Jordan, I am flying there to meet the chief pilot in person"

Captainred, you could be very disappointed by meeting that guy...
I'll see you around Jordan!

[flytoo]

Hi Spacepodlife!

If you have inside infos about the school or the managers, please tell us about it. It could be very useful: to leave a chaotic place to run to a new one is enough for anybody. We would like to keep our mental health, our love of aviation, and the belief that we can do a good job as a flight instructor.
take care and see maybe in Jordan.

Good flights!

Flytoo

[captainred]

Not only the foreign panam managers are to blame...
or can they be blamed for trying to hang on to their seats whatever the cost?


The chinese management are using the age old strategy of divide and conquer.

Harrypothead you say the chinese are retarded.
I on the contrary think they are extremely smart. They just let YOU think they are not.

Every foreigner who works in China is issued a Foreign Expert Certificate.
It is an official document, it must be carried at all times, just like a passport.
Every foreign panam instructor has got one.

Yet under the pretence of conducting some "checks" panam has
got all their certificates back from the instructors, and are keeping them under lock and key in the beijing office.

Harrypothead it does not matter if you lie, cheat, insult, as long as you do it with a smile and keep a good face :}

[alphabravocharlie42]

Yes captainred I remember the expert certificate we used to have in our
pocket. If you work in China you HAVE to possess and keep this document.
This is a requirement. Otherwise you would be considered as an illegal
worker and YOU alone would have to face the consequences

[alphabravocharlie42]

I feel your desapointment nijiggajigga.

Do not expect any help. The foreign management would do anyything to be appreciated by the Chinese.
Your colleagues won t move either because they won t be supported. Being the only one in this hotel isnt really a sweet experience.

To: The Flying Kiwi

Hope you are doing good wherever you are.

[Dirty D]

We ask for an immediate change of policies of all persons concerned, for the sake of flight safety, and for an impartial management of the Panam personnel.

Thats a good idea. I already tried it over a year ago. Unfortunately no one with the power to change anything is listening nor do they care. Business is business. This is a company being run by men who know nothing about aviation. Their only concern is money. Safety costs money but does not increase profit. Therefore safety is not an expense worth incurring.

The sooner you realize that it's impossible to change these people's mind the better for you. Many people have passed through that place. The sad truth is no matter how much experience you have or how much knowledge you have to help the company, they will never listen to you. You will drive yourself crazy trying to change things for the better and some how you will end up getting screwed over for trying to do the right thing. ie..King Air pilots.

My suggestion for pilots currently at Pan Am. Get whatever you need from them (money) and leave ASAP. The industry is way too good worldwide for 80 pilots to be fighting over 1 King Air and 1 Citation.

For those of you who have to stay a while for whatever reason. Enjoy the cheap booze and the friendly women. Remember you are only working there temporarily and try not to stress over work so much.:ok:

[captainred]

Ah, whatisthathey (http://www.pprune.org/forums/member.php?u=182846) ! your post brings back a lot of memories to my mind.

Yes you are right, as you were right all this time ago.

Those problems were mentioned very early on.

A direct consequence of what is mentioned in whatisthathey (http://www.pprune.org/forums/member.php?u=182846)'s post was that in february 2007, the flight school was shut down by the CAAC because of the near mid air collision between a CJ1 and a 737.
The pilot flying the panam citation was none other than the guy who has less than 500 hours total time.

No one, absolutely no one working in panam today can say he/she didn't know about this.

[whatisthathey]

This warning was sent to the academy in January 2007.

[Always Moving]

I would like to see how many people are going to take action and stop Bitch:mad:ing I hope for the live of the next guy going down that you do (it could be you!)

Then again my hopes on this race are low :(

Here is where you can complain.
ICAO, External Relations and Public Information Office (EPO)
999 University Street, Montréal, Quebec H3C 5H7, Canada
Tel.: +1 514-954-8219
Fax: +1 514-954-6077
SITATEX: YULCAYA
Internet e-mail: [email protected] Internet ICAO home page: http://www.icao.int

[Always Moving]

Isn't that falsifying guy of Chinese origin and of US citizenship with FAA license?

Tell the FAA about him! ICAO might not do much but the FAA for sure will love to talk to him, and I do not think you will have a shortage of people to verify that, since you all seem to love him.

[Genghis Khan]

Always Moving

This guy has already been turned in to Chinese management by everyone here. a bunch of foreigners with pilot certificates aren't going to come in here and change over 5000 years worth of culture, dude!! It's payoffs, corruption, bribes and lies.

You think the FAA and ICAO wants to get involved in a pi:mad:ing contest with China CAAC? No way, dude!! Too much politics and money involved. Plus, where's the evidence? you think they're going to take the word of all these phantoms?

Two solutions to this problem

1. If you are here, get out.

2. Don't come here.

[spacepodlife]

"You think the FAA and ICAO wants to get involved in a piing contest with China CAAC? No way, dude!! Too much politics and money involved. Plus, where's the evidence? you think they're going to take the word of all these phantoms?"

Au contraire, Genghis Khan,
I was at the phone today with an FAA inspector, and he told me that FAA would be delighted to know about the mess that one of their pilot did. No matter where, no matter when, he is still an FAA pilot, and he will be until his license is revoked, suspended or surrendered.

[flytoo]

Hello Ladies and Gentlemen!
We need new King Air Instructors!
MinimumTT 1600 ME 250 Dual Given 800 or less TT if you have more experience on ME.
To fly as a CJ1 instructor: TT 450
:confused: Where is the catch?:mad:
Have nice flights and watch your 6
Flytoo

[captainred]

flytoo

i'm sorry you got confused there: those requirements you mention are not for a king air, they are for the panam space shuttle

here are the official requirements for the panam king air:

1-be good friends with the current safety manager (who is supposed to run very soon),
2-be good friends with the baotou chief pilot (who is rumored to run very soon),
3-be good friends with the baotou standards manager (the grapevine says he will make a dash for it very soon),
4-and of course be good friends with the chinese directors (who dont give a damn about whats going on anyway)

[flytoo]

Hi Captainred!

Thanks for the reply: I had a good laugh today thanks to you!;)

By the way, what are the requirements for the Extra 300 we were supposed to get soon ( dixit on January meeting )? and the extra 700 students? when do they arrive?:rolleyes:

When will all these guys run? A lot of talking about runners but they don't do it very quickly:ugh: I think they love their positions and income and will stay: here you are wrong.
The chinese care: just a different way and a different culture.

Enjoy your flights in Aruba!:ok:

Flytoo

[spacepodlife]

"When will all these guys run? A lot of talking about runners but they don't do it very quickly"

Flytoo, Watch this space...

Space

[Always Moving]

Yes I think they should know!
But I have a feeling that YOU Higer/Faster are not going to be the one, since if you were going to do it you already would of done it and not ask in this forum, don't you think. I lost my faith in people, but there is always hope.

Hey POD! you need a break from work! you are working too hard and need some relive from the panamers, aren't you :) Keep up the good work and pray at least 3 times a day. Now that I think of it if you pray that much.... work is gonna accumulate! Take care!

[Genghis Khan]

We've already complained, dude! She's protected by higher powers. Big powers! Untouchable! No way, dude!!

We could ask the beneficient chief flight instructor or his side-kick to do something, but he's too busy gawking over his upcoming King Air training, and he doesn't even meet the qualifications he requires of everyone else in the company!!..:ugh:

Hope you're reading these posts, CFI..!!!!:confused:

[Peter D.]

As of yesterday Mr Chief Chinese GS has a couple great intentions.

Someone who used to work for the admin. dept who made the change to the ground school department is going to teach a couple chapters from the ATPL course. She barely can make the difference between the front and the back of an aircraft. But hey, who cares....:rolleyes:

Persons with a good knowledge, even groundschool experience are put on the side ... Let's go chinese (backworths) and ignoring westerners. :D

I'm worried about the time that those guys (students) are going to sit in an airline and encouter an 'Unusual' situation. On what knowlegde is their decision going to be based ? :ugh::ok:

[larry231]

Hey anyways who needs to have aviation knowledge when the only thing they teach is how to memorize the questions ? It's not that hard to go all over the questions of the book and give the answers listed ! Even a chinese could do it, well actually only a chinese would do it !!! :ugh: hahaha

In China as you know (as we experienced it ourselves down south first hand), you don't even need a license to operate as a dispatcher or worse, a controller ! So for sure you don't need any knowledge to give GS instruction.

This place is just a big ass joke !

Good luck and take care !

Larry

[Always Moving]

AGAIN!

You, do not need, necessarily, a license to give 141 GS. READ THE CCAR's. what you need is the CFI endorsement.

So on that respect your joke is not that good Larry, but we get your point!

(details, details, details...... we do not want to imitate them!)

[Genghis Khan]

Moving,

the regs also say that the CGI has to have at least 1 year experience as a ground instructor at a certificated school, dude. He don't have it!!!

Different subject: It's verified - the safety manger (former GM), and the former CFI have resigned!!! ELVIS HAS LEFT THE BUILDING!!!:uhoh:

Oh, what does the future hold for us now?

Good Luck, HD.....I'll miss seeing you around, dude!:ok:

[Always Moving]

The said to teach that imply GI nothing was said about CGI which that might be the case.

(Details, details, details.......)

[larry231]

Always Moving,

If you read my post again, I was not talking about having any kind of license to teach GS, but only talking about knowledge (I was mentioning the license for the dispatchers and controllers only as a reference). Having somebody teaching GS with absolutely no aviation knowledge whatsoever is just a big nonsense. But hey, it's China !

[flytoo]

That's the question!

If you want something in China, are you ready to bribe the guy in charge? How do you know that he is expecting a bribe? the rumour is that the guy in charge of the licences at Panam expects some bribes. But didn't mention anything!

Then, you wait and wait and wait. And he is telling everybody fairy tales about the FAA, the CAAC and excuses of all kinds. And you wait!

How long can you wait for a chinese licence??

[flytoo]

That's the question!:confused:
If you want something in China, are you ready to bribe the guy in charge? How do you know that he is expecting a bribe?
the rumour is that the guy in charge of the licences at Panam expects some bribes. But didn't mention anything!:ugh:
Then, you wait and wait and wait. And he is telling everybody fairy tales about the FAA, the CAAC and excuses of all kinds. And you wait!
How long can you wait for a chinese licence??
Some guys here are already been waiting for more than 4 months and the end of the contract is at the end of the tunnel. Can one of them actually stay a whole contract without doing any flight instruction?
We will see and get you informed!
Wherever you are, you will fly more than here, therefore don't come to China!
Good an pleasant dreams of flying!:ok:
Flytoo

By the way: who has the record? it would be interesting to know it!

[Genghis Khan]

I think it's over 9 months for the certificates, dude! Let's check the chinese corruption scale here:

1. falsification of Military Student logbooks ( I heard over 100 entries)
2. falsification of Class I medical
3. taking english test for chinese student (paid to do it and caught by CAAC, now promoted in Bautou)
4. falsified training records and TCO for Class I students to graduate (another promotion in the same office as the english taker)

And the foreigner get's fired for "not meeting the minimum flying hours in one month." Can someone please show me where that is written?

[bmwpilot]

Everyone needs to do what's best for them! If that means staying in China, so be it, go to Jordan, Malaysia, Guam, wherever, just DO WHATS BEST FOR YOU:ok: We all know the Chinese management sucks, and it is only a matter of time before PanAm shuts down or moves to another country. Nothing will change anytime soon, deal with it or move on.
For those of you who are FAA certified, and want to work in the land of milk and honey, Skymates (http://www.skymates.com/news.shtml) has something on their website about foreign instructors with FAA credentials, and how you might be able to work there. Westwind School of Aeronautics in PHX also had something similar, so give them a call and see if you can work something out.
Chairman Mao thanks you for all your hard work to make China the next SUPERPOWER:D

[Always Moving]

Careful with the M1 business! I do not think they are totally legal! (hence the way they write it in the website "come talk to me sunny"
Well they are legal to visit but not legal so you get paid.
And fly time, it has been considered pay before! so if you go that route be VERY CAREFUL

And obviously everyone does what is best for each own!

[flytoo]

Hello Ladies and Gentlemen!

This week, a flight school from Jordan is interviewing instructors from Panam. How many will leave?

A new chinese school is trying to hire Panam's instructors. It is run by an ex-manager from Panam. Pay rate is much higher (it has to be to attract some candidates:))

The Philippines, Malaysia, Thailand are looking too.

CAE (from Canada) will start a joint venture with India to open a new academy.

Have a nice day! Check your magnetos!

Flytoo:ok:

[NutmegAir]

Where in Thailand, Flytoo?

[flytoo]

Hi NutmegAir,

I only have an email address. I will have to check it first.:)
Best regards,

Flytoo:ok:

[NutmegAir]

xie xie, Flytoo

[spacepodlife]

Hey Guys, Do you remember when that Chinese pilot was drunk, and flew an airplane at night?
Despite several of us saw him partying with alcohol half an hour before, nobody wanted to test him for alcohol!
Living in China is fun, but working in China for Chinese people...

P.S.
Flytoo, share that address here too!

[Always Moving]

Hey Spacepod!

You are gonna love this!

Rumor has it that the "other school hiring" is run by MR.:mad:ing your dearly friend and that MR.:mad:TNT is the first one to go.

Are they scraping the bottom of the barrel or what?:D

comments, suggestions, verifications?

PS: Just for fun..... (the weasel is gonna love this one, by the way he is doing GREAT in BC)

[spacepodlife]

you gotta be freakin' kidding me!!!:eek:
Space

[flytoo]

Hello!

The rats are leaving the boat! :\

Howard is gone! Have a nice trip and take care of yourself.:ok:

How many will be left at the end of the month?:confused:

Maybe, they can promote some guys from the administrative department to teach flying. It works so well with the ground school.:ugh:

Have a nice weekend!

Flytoo

[Always Moving]

Does anyone has proof?
Like may be a logbook picture with dates where those instructors were not in PAnAm.
Something solid.
It would be great to hit back wouldn't it?

[flytoo]

Hello,
No King Air pilot anymore!
They left and don't regret it!:ok:
No CJ1 too, problem with the maintenance.:{
How many CFIs left? guess that they are not enough to handle all the students.:ugh:
take care,
Fly safely ( no safety officer, he left too ):D
Flytoo

[alphabravocharlie42]

Thanks for the update flytoo

[Genghis Khan]

alphabravocharlie42,

you've got to be kidding, dude! 200 entries? Is there any documentation that you can get your hands on ? I agree with Always Moving - this needs to be reported over and above the chinese. PAYBACK TIME Mr. Ch:mad:n.

[Genghis Khan]

ABC42,

I don't think the chief pilot is going to give up his $4000.00 per month salary and all the perks (apartment, King Air training, CJ training, power) to look an any logbooks, dude! Why should he? He's got it "made in the shade."

I mean, look, it's a step up from flying ultralights, wouldn't you agree?!:eek:

[CleverK1]

I wonder - with just a few instructors down there - how may hours is every instructor logging?
Or is the operation as bad as two years ago....when you hardly got more than one hour of real flying a day.
What other countries than Jordan are accepting FAA instructors?
Does anybody has more information about this Jordan flightschool.

Greets
Ben

[Always Moving]

You should also add that those guys flying that many hours, did things that are beyond most people ethics or standards, lets just said they were not friends with the rest of the FI or students for that matter (they might be slow but they are not stupid, they always end up catching up the dirty tricksters)

But things are on the look up, almost no instructors loads of flying! for how long.... who knows they already lasted longer than anyone could predict....

[spacepodlife]

So, let's see: you can fly easily 30hrs a month after the 10 months that you need to get your license issued in China... that makes 120hrs in a 14 months contract: less then 9hrs a month... of single engine piston!

That will definitely improve your cv!

[Genghis Khan]

Moving,

This whole company doesn't have the ethics and standards of most people, dude! but my countdown has started.

For any of you would-be panamers, or those of you who want the latest news:

1. Standards Manager resigns from his position (what standards?)

2. CJ Manager resigns from his position (great opportunity for the CFI to move up now. You go gett'm, dude! More control, power, money)

3. Still no selection of new King Air pilots! (maybe their reducing and changing the requirements again to meet their own needs, and because no one's left HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!)

4. 3 instructors leaving on payday (hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil)

Enjoy the show!

[spacepodlife]

Well, at least they are not in denial about losing instructors quickly!

From climbto350.com, June 14:
"BPIAA currently has over 400 students, 70 instructors, 49 aircraft..."

From climbto350.com, August 6:
"BPIAA currently has over 400 students, 50 instructors, 49 aircraft..."

[alphabravocharlie42]

I fly 45 hours a month here.

spacepodlife you wrote:

So, let's see: you can fly easily 30hrs a month after the 10 months that you need to get your license issued in China... that makes 120hrs in a 14 months contract: less then 9hrs a month... of single engine piston!


Yes right! As I said you need your license in order to fly. 9 hours or even 0 if it takes your whole contract to get your license.


Alwaysmoving: you were one of the 6!!! :p You were always moving and flying crosscountry.

genghis khan: What does "CJ manager" stand for?

[Genghis Khan]

ABC42,

You ask what does CJ manager stand for? Let me see. If I were to make an educated guess, CJ, as it is referred to in this thread, means Citation Jet. Manager, as it is defined in the dictionary means someone who handles, controls, or directs.

So I guess CJ Manager means the person who handles, controls, or directs the operation of the Citation Jet, dude!

I apologize for the error in my terminology - I've been in the Chinese ATC system too long, and there are so many managers around this place, I may have got confused with who manages what!!!:ugh: Sh:mad:, I don't know if the dude was a manager, assistant manager, general flunky, or janitor!! People change titles here more often than a snake sheds it's skin, dude!! Chill!!!!

Moving: Who do I pay off to get some cross countries?

Rumor verification: I heard one of our former instructors got an email from the Chinese SVP threatening to sue him and revoke his CAAC certificate if he went to work at another school in China. Can anyone verify this?

:ugh::ugh::ugh:

[Always Moving]

I did not pay anyone and although persistent (may be too persistent to some dispatchers likening) but I never pull any dirty tricks. (God knows that I wanted to some of the "great aviators")

But like MR Ch:mad:k said we were making history! may be we could even write a book. In hindsight he did make a historic move to head of sales of diamond! and may be he should write a book about maneuvering and deceiving, I might even buy it I thought he did great (SERIOUSLY HERE!)

I always wonder how much money did he pocket and if the Chinese saw it coming or it did it Washington-Saudi style.

Those threats are BULL:mad: they can not do it. and if they want to work for somebody else PM me and I will point to the the 3 other directions.

This is becoming a great thread thu has nothing to do with the beginning post!
is like a daily news and rumors. LOL

I know rally is loving it!

[Got the horn]

I see they're advertising for more instructors. Keep clear huh?

[nijiggajigga]

From climbto350.com, August 6:
"BPIAA currently has over 400 students, 50 instructors, 49 aircraft..."

But what they fail to mention is that 300 of those students have been enrolled in the course since 2006 and have yet to step foot in an aircraft...

50% of the 50 instructors are leaving by the end of the season...

and only 10-15 of the 49 aircraft are actually usable. They forgot to include the DA40 that rearended a DA42 in flight, the 2 or 3 DA40's that got totalled by ground equipment during a thunderstorm, and the 20-30 aircraft that are sitting on the ground in Handan, Shijiazhuang, Baotou, and Wuhai that are broken, and waiting for parts & experienced mechanics to be fixed.

[Dirty D]

Come on guys. Lighten up. You guys are pioneers of aviation in China. You're all gonna write books one day. Let me tell ya bout the DA42. An Amazing aircraft! You can drop that gear at VNE!!! Let me tell ya bout the G1000. The most advanced avionics ever. Don't worry about doing your flight test with CAAC Airbus and Boeing Captains. They will be amazed and dazzled by the G1000. Don't Worry!! Nobody fails a flight test!!

I'm tellin ya we're getting more CJ's, Piaggios, Gulfstream......You'll all be Airbus Captain in China in 2 years. Why would you want to leave a place like this? Where are you gonna go..........where are you gonna go?

[emb145gearslinger]

What happend to Toshi the old chief? He was a nice guy. Pan Am is a great place to be if you want to get drunk and chase whores. I love how deliciously jacked up that place is.

[Genghis Khan]

Dirty D,

On the contrary, people do fail flight tests here. An instructor who adds a few knots on final for gust factor get's failed, dude! A certain female instructor in Bautou, (who is admired by certain Chinese Mangement), performs a Vmc demo in the 42 with full flaps, gear down, and PASSES!!! but, she has to have more dual before she can give instruction!!:ugh::ugh:

Emb 145: the old chief left the same day HD left, dude. don't know where he's at. Rumor is HD is chief pilot for a 135 on some island.

I heard one the US schools have suspended training on panam students due to nonpayment! :=

Argh!! payday's the 25th.....:eek:

[emb145gearslinger]

Has anybody graduated from PanAm yet?

[nijiggajigga]

Yup, a few months ago they graduated the first class.. I think it was 12 or 20-something students.. but that was damn near 28 months after they first enrolled

[spacepodlife]

"Rumor verification: I heard one of our former instructors got an email from the Chinese SVP threatening to sue him and revoke his CAAC certificate if he went to work at another school in China. Can anyone verify this?"

Khan, it's all true. Do you want to see the letter?
Supposingly, the company owns the rights of your license issuance in China. Did you know that with your medical certificate, you are also supposed to have the medical logbook, the one you filled the day of your medical check? Yours, as well as all the others, are inside a drawer in the Chinese management office. So, just in case you decide to move to another company they'll make things more complicated for you. Just as a hint, read the last page of your Chinese residency permit/work permit... if it is still in your possession.

I think by now they all know what happened to my license once I left PanAm

Now that they have replaced most of the foreign management with Chinese nationals how can they blame the lazy laowai's?

(for those of you who don't know, laowai is an unfriendly way of addressing foreigners in China)

[nijiggajigga]

I'm more interested to see if this "miracle move" to Canada is going to solve anything..

A few of the airlines have pulled their students out of the program and sent them to other places like CAFU..

But I'm still curious to see how they expect to train over 300 pilots with only maybe 20-30 foriegn flight instructors

[emb145gearslinger]

When I worked there they promised up a job at a Chinese airline if we stayed for two contracts. I split wayyyyyyyy before 2 years. I never heard if anyone actually got a job at an airline there. I know there were a few guys that had been there since day one. They were coming up on the 2 year mark before i left. Anybody heard about that?

[Always Moving]

Remember when everyone was like "how can we be teaching if we do not have a FI license" well there is a letter of authorization issue to every instructor to teach, which probably nobody has seen neither.

And the expert certificate? how do you figure... or you give me something that specifically said you should carry it or I do not pay you? WTF?

Also is it true the rumor about PanAm not paying the Flight School in the states and the school stopping the training of the student!
So not only they are not finishing people, but the ones that were sent to the us they are not paying up? PLEASE CONFIRMATION REQUIRED!

[spacepodlife]

"Also is it true the rumor about PanAm not paying the Flight School in the states and the school stopping the training of the student!
So not only they are not finishing people, but the ones that were sent to the us they are not paying up? PLEASE CONFIRMATION REQUIRED!"

Confirmed: PanAm is 2 and 1/2 months late on the payment.
To quote the manager of IATA, International Airline Training Acadney of Tucson, AZ, the flight school training PanAm cadets..."training is OVER".

If you think that the Chinese students were treated with tickets to the NBA game between Suns and Rockets to see Yao Ming playing... did Panam ever do anything like this for their the foreign instructors...???

[flytoo]

Hello Ladies and Gentlemen!

Here is the latest on the King Air;
It is back and flying again! I saw it with my own eyes!

Good news? bad news? :confused:Who knows?:rolleyes:

Happy flying and Merry Christmas:ok:


Flytoo

[Genghis Khan]

"If you think that the Chinese students were treated with tickets to the NBA game between Suns and Rockets to see Yao Ming playing... did Panam ever do anything like this for their the foreign instructors...???"

Hey, Spaceman...we get treated like royalty here, dude. They took us on a bus trip to the middle of the Gobi Desert to watch camel's hump, or something. Never quite figured that trip out.:ugh:

Flytoo: what about all those discrepancies on the King Air, dude. Were they repaired or (shssssh.....just ignored):uhoh:

No worries! :)

[spacepodlife]

"what about all those discrepancies on the King Air, dude. Were they repaired or (shssssh.....just ignored)"

Well, it's always the same old story: as long as there will be pilots that will prostitute themselves to fly turboprop for a few bucks just to build turbine time... there will be pilots starving because operators will keep salaries as low as they can. After all, who cares about safety if they don't fly IN the aircraft?

I'll tell you what... check here: http://forums.jetcareers.com/jobs-available/49217-cfis-needed-dubai.html
CFI's Needed in Dubai - jetcareers

[spacemanspiff8]

jesus things havent changed there at all!!

maybe someone can fill me in on something, does the 480hr pilot flying the CJ still teach his students (and anybody else's who would listen)to look out the side of the aircraft in the flare? :eek:

[spacepodlife]

Now that in the US are recruiting non US citizens as CFI's, I bet things will get harder and harder in China!
Dreamline Recruiting is currently sponsoring H3 visas to FAA rated instructor. They are also provide assistance in gaining CFII and MEI for entry level CFI's and Housing!
Well, I guess this was in the air, giving the amount of pilots needed in the next few years and the impossibility to find US instructors, as they are all leaving for the airlines.
For those who need more info, search the usual websites or send me an email!
Cheers!

[flytoo]

Hello,

Also see: www.asiapacificflighttraining.com
they have DA 42 and are looking for CFIs.

More info on Dreamline Recruiting would be nice too.
happy flying and tailwind!:ok:

Flytoo

[spacepodlife]

there you go!

DREAMLINE RECRUITING
2305 Jetlift Drive, Suite B, Atwater CA USA
Tel: +1( 209) 631 3602
Fax: +1( 209) 722 7753

or check on climbto350.com

[Always Moving]

You might want to go to Kota Baru to see what is going on there before you sign anything. That is norther Malaysia (muslim country rebels, people do die)

[spacepodlife]

H-3 visa is some sort of internship. Basically you work while gaining experience toward your ATP certificate. Obviously you need not to have your ATP certificate already.
Check on climbto350.com

[Always Moving]

Internship! what a crock of S:mad:it!

So you fly for free instead of getting paid! what a racket! instead of paying the American FI let's not pay anything to the foreigner. I tell you there is some Machiavelli's in this world! (I know they have them in the pentagon but not in the civilian side!)

[thornycactus]

What kind of sick, twisted, demented flight school does not accept resumes via email ?!? They required you to post your CV by mail! What a bunch of :mad: ! (i dont think i want to work for a flight school that even has less common sense then P.A.)

Below postings were done by others (not me). :uhoh:

Attitudes of Malays (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showpost.php?p=2109073&postcount=48) [<- right click]
Malays do not like expats (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showpost.php?p=2022493&postcount=42) [<- right click]
Priority reserve to the Malays (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showpost.php?p=2004647&postcount=33) [<- right click]
Job for Malays (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showpost.php?p=2021982&postcount=39) [<- right click]
Company run by Malays (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showpost.php?p=1948305&postcount=8) [<- right click]
What about:
1. MFA; post #45 (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showpost.php?p=2107057&postcount=45), #46 (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showpost.php?p=2108058&postcount=46), #22 (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showpost.php?p=1988547&postcount=22), #14 (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showpost.php?p=3534381&postcount=14)
2. Asia Pacific Flight Training; post #11 (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showpost.php?p=3153216&postcount=11)

An experienced aviation expert's valuable view in flight training environment in Malaysia. Read post #4 (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showpost.php?p=3482467&postcount=4), #13 (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showpost.php?p=3534373&postcount=13), #15 (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showpost.php?p=3534386&postcount=15)

Next, kindly make full use the forum search engine in future! It is so useful!

[Timocracy]

Hey, Just realized why the students got free tickets to see Yao Ming, one of his major sponsors is Garmin.. So don't worry it's not like the school paid for the tickets.

Also can someone start a thread with a list of all the companies(with contact details)that employ FI's in Asia. I think that would be handy for people looking at heading to this part of the world or people already here looking for other possibility's.

[thornycactus]

Wll, from the links to comments above there is no doubt that MFA is some sort of :mad: nesting place. It was obvious from their website.Does anyone know any decent flight schools recruiting in Thailand ?
If you are thinking of becoming an FI in Thailand and join any Thai airline, I am afraid this will not work. I am not splashing cold water on you. The piloting jobs (such as F.O.) are reserved for Thai national only (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showpost.php?p=3515528&postcount=2).

Have you joined hi5.com? Lots of Thai pilots available! Plenty of Thai flying instructors! You should know what I meant.

So, try the Philippines! The Philippines people love cauasians! The funny trend is that Filipino flying instructors love to works elsewhere rather than their own country. :\
Before becoming an FI, I am sure you know must to go through sickening ATO pilot licence conversion but much less hassle in other countries. :D

[spacepodlife]

Always Moving: It's an "H" class visa, which means it is a paid internship

This was supposed to be a thread with a lot of bitching about the PanAm scam, instead it became a resource for expat FI's looking for a job.
I suggest we start a new thread.

However, the Chinese are right: "just give the westerners more empty promises, and they'll stop bitching!"
So, where have all the original posters gone? Has PanAm really improved so quickly or have they cut their internet connections?!?

[flytoo]

Hello!

If you sign a new contract, you might get the permanent chinese licence. :confused:
If you don't sign: you will not get it.:\
This is call harmony!

After waiting 13 months to receive a chinese licence (remember that you passed all the written tests and flight tests), you have to decide if you want to play their game. It is called blackmail:{

The only reason is that they don't want you to be free of choosing a new employer.
There are so many in China, you can't really decide which one:ugh:

Have a nice day!:ok:

Flytoo

[johnnie pilot]

Hi Spacepod life

You are asking where are all the people who started this thread?

Well I think they are either :

now too disgusted with this company that they dont want to discuss about it anymore, or

they have been "bought" by this company's promise to raise their salary by 1000 usd per month if they renewed their contract or

they have moved on to greener pastures

has panam recruited any new instructor since july 2007?

for those of us who have worked there, the ad panam has put on climbto350.com is laughable

panam has recently been emailing people who have worked there
they want them back!
do they also want the runners back? my guess is yes

has any of the people who left panam come back?
has anyone really been convinced by yet more empty promises and lies?

[Jbroey3]

How is the operation in WuHai (乌海) going? Military, ATC, and Weather, issues?
Additionally, what is the location like? The people, students, city, nightlife, off duty activities etc?

[Always Moving]

MR WOOD!

So You think is unfair? so The company spends on you a few thousand dollards in converting your license (lets say around 8K USD) and then you see unfair for the company to share on the next contract the money that they would of have to spend (or save if they keep the pilot) on another pilot?

Perfect example than when 2 people look at the same situation they see it differently.

I think is GREAT the only good decesion made by PanAm.
What do you care wht other people get paid? if you are getting paid wht it was agree upon! (little baby craying whawhawha I want what the other little baby has whawhawha) :=

The holding of license, medical book, Forign expert and letter of dismisal upon leaving is not only bad manners, it is ilegal! but you did gave them your foreign expert didn't you?

And the standoff I will believe it when I see it happening ther is too many leaches in this world and more in Aviation if not why are we paying for TR when there is a need for pilots?

[flytoo]

Hi Always Moving!

Could you explain:

the holding of license, medical book, Forign expert certificate and letter of dismisal upon leaving is illegal?
Why? tell us details about it, please!

Have happy landings:ok:

Flytoo

[Always Moving]

Because they are stealing something that is of your ownership.

Letter of dismissal. By law after leaving a company they have to give you a latter of dismissal (or so I have been explain)

The medical book (the brown one) because is yours and you will need it to do any more medicals in China. Same for the foreign expert certificate and it says so in the document and the license.....

Now the Chinese might have a different view on this (like, Hell! I paid for them they are mine....)

I recommend before you leave to ask for all of that back!

[EX-FED]

Always Moving is correct, and I will give you a little more detail as you requested.

A Pilot or Flight Instructor Certificate is issued by the governing authority, which in this case, is the CAAC. The ratings issued on that certificate is a "privilege", and not a "right." If you read the regulations carefully, you will see that the certificate "must" be in your personal possession, or readily accessable in the aircraft when utilizing the "privileges" of that certificate.

The CAAC, may, supercede, suspend, or revoke ANY certificate issued by them, but even this does not happen overnight. There is a process that must be followed.

No where, and I repeat "NO WHERE" on that pilot certificate does it say "Beijing PanAm International Aviation Academy." PanAm does not have ANY right, whatsoever, to hold any certificate issued by the CAAC. It does not say "issued to BPIAA", or "issued by BPIAA."

Furthermore, a Temporary Certificate is ONLY valid for 120 days. Now, the CAAC can continue issuing Temporaries until Hell freezes over; nothing anyone can do about that, but you cannont legally "exercise the privileges of that certificate" if it is expired; read the regs!

The same applies to the medical certificates; they are issued to YOU; NOT Beijing PanAm.

After spending 8 years in the FAA, I'm pretty well versed in the regulations, but I won't even begin to touch this "Foreign Expert Certificate Issue." Regardless what SOME individuals feel I DID'NT DO with regard to this issue, be advised MY CERTIFICATE was surrendered, also.

I will echo what Always Moving has said; If PanAm is holding your certificate, it is illegal and should be reported to the proper authorities; in this case, the CAAC. YOU HAVE THE RIGHT, as a CAAC Certificate Holder, to forward a complaint to the CAAC; even if you're a foreigner.

I am currently dealing with them on some issues that occured in the past through a FAA Liason that has direct access to CAAC Headquarters, and the process is proceeding well. If PanAm holds ANYONE'S certificate, please PM me and I will give you the name and email of the Representative I'm dealing with, and he can get you in contact with the appropriate CAAC Inspector.

Good Luck to all of you.

Howard

[flytoo]

Thank you for the info!:ok:

I agree totally with you two guys, Ex-Fed and Always moving!
Just wanted to see it written on pprune to inform everybody, working or not at BPIAA.

Have good flights, wherever you are at the present time!:)

Flytoo

[rwong2005]

It's an agency that hires CFIs for Sierra Academy

[spacemanspiff8]

sounds like binzhou with nicer weather!

Do they have tranny pole dancers at the disco there as well?:eek::bored::uhoh:

[Always Moving]

MR Wood. I am not in my second or third contract I left PanAm last year.

I agree that are pissing off people left and right and that they have no idea of what they are doing.

But the money thing really! what do you care what other people get paid!

And people leaving for better paid jobs? there are not that many and definitely not flying like you say "real planes" you will be happy if you can by a beer after paying your bills.

Sure Ayala pays better and sure JTFA has a better lifestyle but with the attitude you seem to have you will always wondering that somebody else is getting pay more. If you do not like my tone of voice is too bad, but I am not loosing any sleep over it.
And I do not want to turn this into a pissing contest.

By the way those validations ARE ILLEGAL (hmm$$$$$hmmm)

[Always Moving]

Yo MR. Wood.

Why do I care, hmm let's just said I am involved. "perhaps not"

Hey can somebody tell me who is this Mr. Wood and if it is worth even spend my time.

By the way I do not care how much people get paid, I take it in consideration for my next contract but I do not complain if my employer pays me what I agree by contract. You can complain, bitch and moan before you sign the next one but if they are paying you what they and you agree (and I suppose you have a contract that you sign!) I still do not understand it if you get paid what the 2 parties agree.

Your explanation is far for logical. I do not consider myself an idiot neither a genius I will say a fairly normal, but the more I deal with people the more of above normal I start to consider myself.

And by the way this is a anonymous forum (we have a lot of people who are friends and we know who is who) but if I have to put name and number I will have to charge! (I am willing to give advice for money seriously! if you pay the plane ticket I even go to Bauto and tell you in person.)


ALEX you are loving this aren't you!

[nijiggajigga]

Wow Russ, seems like your starting to go a bit crazy...

Kinda like me! HAHAHAHAHA

When I left Pan Am in August, it was probably one of the best decisions I could have made. I really did enjoy visiting China... but for me, staying there for 10 months (while only flying for the last 3) was a waste of my life.

It is truely a shame that Pan Am has piss-poor management with crap-for-brains. There are several sub-management employees that really try hard but it seems the managers (and those with the title but no job responsibility-- IE, Bike Manager - Handan) just cause havok on themselves.. and the worst part is they don't see it happening. That generally tells you one of two things.. either they know something you don't (which generally will be a) unsafe; b) illegal; c) unethical; d) all of the above) and it's in the works behind the foreigners backs, or there is no backup and when 10% of the remaining instructors decide to put up with the BS and stay a 2nd contract leave.

China has such potential in becoming a great place to fly.. but there are several issues that need to be seriously fixed, and that lays beyond just Pan Am. The CAAC needs more of an overhaul than any prop-strike'd DA40 owned by Pan Am. Corruption needs to be eliminated, policy must be enforced, and procedures must be developed and maintained. That goes for every department, from training, to licensing, and so forth and etc to the end. But right now, as far as I have seen, China does not communicate with itself. Departments are head over heels, and never know who does what, who is who, or what anyone's job description really is. Most likely, the CAAC does not have an organizational chart, and if they did, it would probably be impossible to update on a regular basis because the person who maintained it would probably have to be promoted to "Organizational Chart Manager."

The other thing is the military has got to let go of the airspace. I can not think of too many other countries that is so afraid of itself. In my opinion, the United States Air Force is one of the most powerful Air Forces in the world.. however that doesn't restrict the US Airspace one bit. Sure there are MOA's, CFA's, Prohibited Areas, Warning Areas, etc... but they are properly mapped, coordinated between civilian agencies, and have suffecient communication when active/inactive with the FSS stations and ATC. Why can't China do the same? They already copied the FAA's FAR word for word (minus the conversions needed for US-measurement to metric). I mean come on, they use the Australian CASA ATP test for their own! They have nothing original; everything they have is a rip-off of another country, going to show you that China has much to learn before it's airspace is ever considered an Open Sky.

Since moving back into FAA controlled airspace, I have flown my Cherokee 6 within 3 miles of a KC135 at low altitudes and 2 miles from Asiana Airbus' and Northwest's Airbus'. However in China, they require 15KM seperation.. completely ridiculous, unless you fly in a city where the average visibility is 3KM, mainly due to pollution... way below VFR minimums in any other country.. Oh but wait there is no VFR, it's all IMC training so go ahead and go anyways..

Anyways, I apologize for writing this novel...

Even after I left Pan Am, their condition seems to be deteriorating. Derek Butler and Joe Moran both said, Pan Am takes 1 step forward, and 5 steps back. Most likely, until the Chinese Military changes, the CAAC changes, and Pan Am changes.. any foreigner still working there will only be pulling his/her hair out over the frustration that Chinese management creates.

I hope that after a few recent events regarding flight safety, all of you still with Pan Am still flying, really look after yourselves and never compromise your safety for them. All you guys in Wuhai have 8 students, partially because of me. But if you think it's great you have 14 hour duty days and you're here complaining about it, then you should have done something about it.. When I started flying in Wuhai, I went from flying 7-8 hours a day with 5 of my students to 3 flights a day. My body couldn't handle it, and no amount of money could change that. You need to stand up for what you believe in, and what you know needs to be done, instead of posting on this forum or any other forum about how much you hate Pan Am. We already know you do; so why are you still with them?

Nick

[Always Moving]

Nice witting!

[spacemanspiff8]

i cant wait to get back to panam!!! see you guys in January!

[Always Moving]

MR. WOOD The last sentence is the best of all.

Yea go to Saipan, you gonna love that place! may be you should ask the stealth he is there (and trying to get out!)

Nothing is free, you gave advice (a bad one too) to make YOU feel better.

[JSF1]

shalom shalom

[nijiggajigga]

HAHA The stealth....

I heard the stories.. now I know who it was..

I still find it very funny.. in a way, I was the same.. except I wasn't stealthy about it. I just sat on my bum for 9 months trying to pass that stupid CAAC exam..

[nijiggajigga]

So um...

.. I heard Pan Am invented a convertible DA-42...

[Always Moving]

I heard an inconclusive rumor about an incident or accident.

What happened? Nigajiga

MR. Wood...... You have been ignored, I find no joy on talking with your "kid" of people!

[spacemanspiff8]

ya i heard someone dragged some power lines back to the airport! anyone with any info?

[spacepodlife]

That would be definitely an accident. Has CAAC been notified to Beijing or the usual bribing mechanism has taken place?

[spacepodlife]

From our informers beyond the border:

"The pilot was practicing an 'emergency descent', he sratched up the wing and canopy quite a bit, and landed with the wire trailing from the airplane.
They put the airplane in the hangar, canceled all the VIP flights because they didn't want the Singapore Investors to see it, and grounded the pilot without pay.
The CAAC was not notified, and they threatened the Chinese Staff if they opened their mouth."

Stand by for more juicy infos and thank you for flying the friendly skies!

[Merdeka]

Oooo, . . . no wonder the HMA students say that there's a few ex-Beijing Pan Am instructors joining them. Pity though, it's like getting themselves out of the Tiger's Jaw and walking straight into a Crocodile's BIG Jaws. HMA is no different mates. They even stop your salary if you give notice to quit, let alone get into an incident like that. I heard because of this a few instructors just picked up their bags and left after getting paid for the month . . . hee hee hee . . . . smart move. Wonder how the Beijing guys manage to leave? :p

[spacemanspiff8]

almost 1 year to the day from panam's last "incident"!! better update your resume's guys!!

[Always Moving]

May be somebody should "anonymously" report the incident-accident?

Sorry Will! but it will be better for EVERYONE.

[spacepodlife]

I agree with Always Moving, it would be better to come clean now than risk in the future. Aviation is a small world, I think that this thread is the proof and it's much better not have this skeletons in the closet.

[nijiggajigga]

Will I'm glad your ok..

Now, since I'm fed up with Pan Am..

I would do whatever I could to shut Pan Am down... While this particular incident was pilot-error.. it should be enough for those investors, the CAAC, and all other foreign pilots, to get a message through to Pan Am that they are a dangerous company.. this is no worse than forging documents (BTW since most of Class 1 can't pass their own airline's exams due to forged documents on Class 1 students' papers as a result of Pan Am's incompetence). So, since all of the instructors are on a nice little vacation again.. why don't some of you just stand up and go to the CAAC? Sneak into the hanger. Take pictures. Send them all over the internet. Singapore investors have internet too.

Someone should start a Wiki thread about BPIAA. That'll clearly show the rest of the world the hazards of flight training with corrupt management who value the size of their pockets over the quality and safety of their employees and students.

Basically, I have a strong belief that if no one does anyone to escalate this situation further, then it's only going to lead to the inevitable. Someone will crash, someone will die. It happens all the time in aviation.. however you all know damn well it's more likely when you have poor fuel, poor maintenance, low standards in training, document forging, private pilot training in IMC, unethical business practices, and lord knows what else; so what are you all waiting for?

[Always Moving]

Nigajiga that is a great jiga jiga IDEA!

I got to learn how to do the wiki thang! let me ask my girl she is all into that....

[nijiggajigga]

And it's not like anyone in mainland China would be able to view it anyways, since China blocked Wikipedia...

[Always Moving]

Not ALWAYS!

Besides have you ever heard of TOR or anonymouse?
http://anonymouse.org
http://tor.eff.org/

OK, ok I am a smart ass I know!

The first one is a program that bounce you off from server to servers the second one is a web page that does something similar. It is a bit slower but it goes thru the "great wall"

Great tip ha?

your welcome
:ok:

[Peter D.]

It's only an idea but the CAAC likes paperwork, why not collecting nice pictures, reports and some other paperwork etc...:ok:

When you do something, do it very well... only "excellence" like many russian cargo pilots would say.:D

The upper-management will get the same amount of respect what they gave us.

[Always Moving]

I have not seen any, c'mon guys have some spine and snap some pics! or video even better!

Hey "P" where are you at JAP CAN or still here.....

[spacepodlife]

Hey guys, I heard you are trying to stir the pot!

Does this mean that I will be able to obtain my permanent license that has been closed on Ted's drawer for more than 13 months???

[nijiggajigga]

Hey Danieluk, it's good to hear from ya!

I miss your smart ass comments they made me laugh so much in Shiz!



AM, I used to use anonymouse but I found it wasn't good...

I used pagewash.com until China's government finally grew a brain and blocked it...

but I used a better one in Wuhai, I just can't remember the site because I haven't had to use it since I left China :D

[nijiggajigga]

Seems that the guys in Baotou are finally stepping up to the plate and standing up for what needs to be fixed.

There is a list of 19 things that the instructors demand BPIAA to correct within 2 weeks.... and clearly stated that neither 19 items are negotiable.

Congradulations guys, I hope that the Chinese management can come to the realization that inexperienced managers, regardless of how much they are paid, or how many there are, does not qualify for a good, safe, efficient flight school.

I seriously doubt though they will take this seriously. They'll probably suspend you all and dock your pay.. hope none of you "mysteriously" disappear.

[flyingzorro]

What happened to the Hero of the El Alamo?
Is it true that he has left?
I will always remember the speech he gave us, one cold friday morning...
ah the good old days of the "7 o'clock instructors meetings..."

he actully read us a letter sent by the officer commanding the fort of el alamo besieged by the mexicans, where mister travis was saying he'd never surrender...

has our own hero finally surrendered?
wasn't he supposed to fight for us, tooth and nail?
wasn't he going to reveal to the world all the bad things done by the chinese management?
wasn't he going to expose the pilot who forged logbooks and his own medical so he could fly a citation?

has he run?

where is the hero of the alamo, ex-fed, ex-faa, etc...?

[EX-FED]

Ha Ha!!

Why Zorro, what an ugly thing to say. I abhore ugliness. Does this mean we're not friends anymore? You know, Zorro, if I thought you were'nt my friend, I just don't think I could bear it!!

Like to correct you and enlighten you on a few things:

1. I didn't surrender; I was defeated (as was Chuck, Pat, and every other foreign manager in that place).

2. HELLO PPRUNE SUBSCRIBERS: Please inform everyone you know that I failed miserably in my job and in stopping the Chinese corruption and bribery so Zorro can get a life. Please tell everyone I left PanAm, with proper notice according to my contract, I might add. You damn right, I left that place. Have you?

3. I don't need to inform the world about the corrupt management at Bejing PanAm. Pprune has served that purpose well. Thanks to the Pprune staff for providing this avenue to expose the falsifications, corruption, and bribery to the aviation world.

And most importantly, I'd like to thank Pprune for providing me information on the following:

Two days ago, a formal letter was submitted to the Chinese Management at Bejing PanAm listing 19 demands that must be met by October 20, 2007, or the foreign instructors would not report for duty. A "strike", for a better lack of words. According to sources in Bautou, this letter was signed by all instructors and delivered to the management.

These demands stated that there would be "no negotiations or compromise." One item in particular caught my attention, and that was the instructors were demanding a "Search and Rescue Plan" for each base. That's probably a good idea since in the last year there has been:

(a) A mid-air collision
(b) A near mid-air collision
(c) At least 4 major prop strikes without engine teardowns
(d) A road landing
(e) A powerline strike
(f) No telling what other incidents that were never reported or covered up

I have since learned that the group leader for the instructors has already been threatened by the Senior Vice President to be "punished" for submitting this letter and organizing the instructors. After this threat, it appears some instructors are backing down from their initial demands? Excuse me, "no negotiations or compromise." Am I saying that correctly? Are you guys backing away from safety?

So, Zorro, I guess you've got Sam Houston to lead you to victory at San Jacinto since the Alamo fell. Problem is, you've already issued an "ultimatum" to the "enemy", in writing, and signed by the instructors at the Bautou base. Now some of you are "retreating?" You're not going to support General Houston? That's the "pot calling the kettle black", bubba!! := You going to cross the picket line; become a SCAB!!

Here's the deal, Zorro. If the instructors that signed that document don't support the group leader and follow through with this, they will be the laughing stock of Pprune and the aviation world. "NO NEGOTIATIONS AND NO COMPROMISE."

All the ex-panamer's and the rest of the subscribers are watching and waiting. Let's see if you put your money where your mouth is! What's more important; safety and dignity, or money and flight hours? At what price are you going to sell you soul or the LIFE OF YOUR FELLOW PILOT? (refer to incidents listed above)

Zorro, you could do me a favor. If you're going to refer to history, please be accurate with your personal annonymous description. Zorro, in legend, was a hero to the Mexican people. Santa Ana was for real and an ":mad:hole." Please change your name accordingly.

Go carve your "Z" on some other thread!!

Howard

P.S. By the way, if you want to know where I'm at, just ask the former PanAm instructors that are working for me...quite happily, I might add, but don't apply...I don't need any "masked men" working around here.

[nijiggajigga]

My Gripe with BPIAA, CAAC, and China:

1) Wants foreign help, but won't actually admit it. They'll invite you in, but when they give you a test that was originally in English.. then translated to Chinese, then retranslated to pre-kindergarden english.. and expect you to pass it.. I gave up hope.

2) Invites me, yes me.. to meet with CAAC test officials in Beijing, along with a foreign English speaking Hong Kong citizen who is also FAA pilot to correct all questions as originally planned over a period of 4 days, was cut short to just 150 questions in 1 day. 4 months later, none of the 150 questions fixed had been circulated in the test bank.

3) BPIAA President Jack Li assured the instructors who have been trying to pass the test "had passed" by negotiating with CAAC to change their asinine 80% passing score. Of course this was a lie. He said it was a done deal, but fell through (most likely due to insufficient funds on the bribery-wallet). So instead, it was for us all to take the un-edited, Australian-CASA ATP written exam, since CAAC uses their exam for CAAC ATP exams. Wrong.. that was never approved either.

4) During company trips between Shijiazhuang - Hohhot on company business, by company paid airfare.. was told Baotou would send bus to pick up instructors. Was also told in Shijiazhuang, that if no one in Baotou picked us up, BPIAA would refund our travel expenses. Reality - got to Hohhot, spent over 200 RMB for taxi/bus expenses, was personally refused reimbursement by Mr. Yu in Baotou.

5) During company business again, failure on foreign and Chinese management communication, I was stranded in Baotou with no hotel accommodation. I was forced to stay in 1-star hotel near airport and provide my own transportation with NO REIMBURSEMENT, thanks to cheap Mr. Yu in Baotou (BTW one of the only few Chinese managers who actually own a car... his pocket got pretty bigger by the 300RMB he saved putting me in a crap hotel for 3 nights). Oh yeah needless to say, there were no restaurants catering to foreigners, so I had to spend additional money for taxi to the other side of town where the English speaking waitresses worked.

6) Was told several times, while based in Baotou, that I was to remain in Baotou. Was given 16 hours notice to pack all my belongings and go to Wuhai the next morning. Students were given less time than that.

7) While in Wuhai, was ferrying aircraft for 100-hour inspection to Baotou. Aircraft needed oil. After needing to yell at maintenance for 2 quarts of oil, I found out after returning back to Wuhai that the mechanic only gave me 1/2 quart oil. Need I remind you, Wuhai-Baotou is 100% desert. I guess saving oil saves company money, nevermind if the engine (which is poorly maintained) fails and the aircraft crashes in the desert.

8) Was denied clearance for ridiculous 15KM separation between IFR/VFR traffic in Wuhai and limited to confined area of a training area.. was instructed and ordered to remain no higher than 50 meters above variable height terrain, over the desert, during an IFR arrival on a visual approach. Apparently, any higher than 50 meters AGL is a threat to a 737 doing an approach to an airport when you are 25NM from the airport. I'd hate to see them panic when Chinese people are flying their kites 200 meters high.

9) Requested to be shown aircraft records to demonstrate to students how to ensure an aircraft is airworthy. Found out records are kept in Shijiazhuang (rather than on file with the base the aircraft is parked at).

BTW, Zorro, Howard is from Houston.. the Alamo is in San Antonio.. 212 miles apart...

So, did I run? Damn right. After Robin had a serious power loss in 9135 (the aircraft which had multiple prop-strikes in Baotou) after take off in Wuhai and maintenance just looked at it for a few days.. made me realize that untrained mechanics, no matter how many unrelated engine-runs they do on the ground, or how many mechanics it takes to replace a landing light (no pun intended - it seriously takes about 4), or seeing them run an engine for 20 minutes for a AHRS failure (which has nothing to do with AHRS!!!!) made me realize that all of China, has much to learn about aviation... nevermind the fact that there is a "bicycle manager" in Handan and even a guy hired to turn the damn FTD on and off (his 1 and only job)

I've witnessed what words can't describe. Inefficient, unsafe, impractical, unairworthy, uneducated, untrained, corrupt, unappreciative, unwilling, inappropriate, dysfunctional, inexperienced, and the list goes on and on........

So, in the interest in my life... I'll gladly leave any company which comprises my safety.

[spacepodlife]

hey Zorro,

Are you one of those who signed the formal letter and than is now backing down from the initial demands leaving his colleagues and fellow pilots behind, only because Chinese management threatened not to recommend to the airline?

Well, listen to this: Mr. Jack Li in person told me on October 2005 (and I quote): "don't worry, finish your contract and I'll personally recommend you to Hainan Ailines". Of course it never happened, what a load of rubbish!

So, you can believe the same lies, kiss his *** and back down from the demands, but than you really need to aim for an airline in China, because you'll never be employable anywhere else in the world.
Who wants to fly with a pilot who leaves their fellow pilots behind? Believe me, aviation is a small world, too small to lose the trust of the professional pilot community

[Newark Newbie]

As a former employee of BPIAA, I keep in contact with a few select friends that are unfortunately still there. One sent me a copy of an email sent out by your representative.

I think all of you 2nd or 3rd year instructors better educate "General Houston" on Mr. Li's tactics. I can't believe you are actually going to sit though another dog and pony show with that man.

I'm now an outsider, but with friends still there. Director Li (not Jack) told me to my face on 2 different occasions that his only concern was to find investment money. So look at what is happening right now under your nose, and your representative can't see it. Isn't BPIAA trying to get investment from Singapore? Do you think they would drop a dime into that place if they knew what was going on? This meeting is a tactic to stall the inevitable. Ask the old-timers still there.

And how can he say to Jack Li, in his email to Jack, that the instructors felt that he was not aware of all the problems at BPIAA. Jack Li IS the problem at BPIAA.

I think all of your intentions are honorable, and I agree with spacepod that you should all stick together on this. But on the other hand, I think all of you just signed your own Death Warrant and sealed your fate when you submitted that document. You have chinese instructors waiting to take over. Don't think for a second that the managers don't know that. Li will pacify your representative, take the Singapore money, and forget you or your problems even exist. The best thing everyone can do, and I say this will all sincerity, is just get out of there.

Oh, and Mr. Zorro, please do us all a favor and find some other topic. It's been in every BPIAA thread posted on here. We all know Howard's the hero of the Alamo, and still is, in most of our minds.

Pat, if you're reading this, give us your thoughts.

Blue Skies:ok:

[shai2000]

Damn guys ,don't retreat now .
If you'll do it again the Chinese managers will trample you like a bug .
All the guys before you tried their best to fight this corruption and just the greedy manipulators betrayed !
It's all depends on you guys ,CLOSE PAN SCAM !!!
Keep it real and don't let it go wrong (like we did) :rolleyes:
Peace :ok:

[nijiggajigga]

Shai where you at now?

Long time no hear!

-Nick

[flyingzorro]

haha

i see our lone ranger is still quick to draw his gun and shoot first anything that moves and ask questions later, and he still has got faithful followers

remember when he was walking around the school in jeans and bandana?
playing the guitar at the oujing hotel's reception desk
my heart melted that day ...

i am not working in panam anymore, i have left one year ago

i did not even know about the letter the baotou instructors sent to the chinese leaders

everything has been done to try and improve this place, and only the foreigners have actually tried something

go on strike? the frenchies who used to fly the king air have done it

write letters?
done

organise safety meetings?
done

we were promised discount vouchers at the oujing green restaurant ...

by now the whole world knows this is the worst flying school ever

i am so happy i left the place when i did

it's no use trying to improve panam

just leave, or even better: dont go there

the following names are fictious:

the manager of maintenance mister Mu, is incompetent, and so scared to lose his status of vice president ...

mister Gong, baotou base manager is so ambitious, he makes Don and Dustin look like choirboys...

even mister Bing has left panam

the dispatchers are hopeless they cant tell the difference between a taf and a metar

the mechanics could not even build a meccano game...

hahahahahahahahahaha

[nijiggajigga]

Well when you look at their positions, you can't compare those with foreign positions with the same title.

You should know by now, a position in China with a title is just a title.. not a responsibility or any substitute for training from that of a western-cultured or aviation developed country.

For example, ...

-Dispatchers in the US Flight schools keep track of aircraft, instructor, and student movement around their assigned bases, and more. Dispatchers in China can't keep track of what aircraft is where, what instructor is at what base, and like you said, can't read a TAF or METAR (neither can most of the students).

-Mechanics in the US are FAA certified Aircraft and Powerplant (or one without the other) mechanics and went to school for their specialized training, as well as additional (optional) training for engine/airframe/avionics specific service. Mechanics in China are either ex-military or local 2-stroke motorcycle repair men with no training other than "on the job" done by poorly trained men who wear the title of "mechanic."

-Weather in the US is freely and easily accessible for efficient training, preparation, and flight planning. Weather in China is highly restricted and hidden from foreign pilots.

-Student services in the US keeps track of students progress, student finances, student relations (housing, bills, etc), and works with other departments. Student services in China will override any decision of any foreign management so that the student can continue with their certification process, even when the flight instructor does not endorse (for good reasons too) the student for stage checks, check rides, and written exams.

-Flight Standards department is overseen by the Chief Flight Instructor in the US, enforcing company policy, safety, and operation standards among all flight instructors regardless of assigned base. In addition, FS has support from it's highly-experienced management and leaders. Flight Standards in China is undeveloped and unmaintainable. Any changes to standards is not enforced, not trained, not communicated, and not supported by management.

-Management in the US is done by highly-experienced leaders who have more than several years (most likely decades) of experience in flight schools, flight training, maintenance, executives, or any combination of those plus more. Leaders know regulations, safety protocols, communication standards, and good-people skills. Chinese managers are inexperienced individuals who seek nothing but larger pockets, careless and thoughtless, cares nothing about the product nor the service.. seek investors while fading away from the company goals that they themselves laid out when the school was first opened. They also change policy without notice to any other department, and do not realize problems do not go away on their own, or by drinking a few bottles of baijiu, or by creating more problems to make one problem go away does not work. Their biggest downfall is the inability to listen and take advice from people who have much more experience in a particular field (The father/son relationship, where a father tells the son about mistakes he made while he was a boy so that the son doesn't have to repeat the fathers mistakes comes to mind).

[spacemanspiff8]

a potential job action at panam?!? thats amazing!?!

ive read the 19 demands and nothing seems to be beyond reason (to westerners of course) im sure chinese management will be more than happy to accomodate you:ugh:

i would recommend however that you replace the "unions" front man. ive never met DB, im sure hes a great guy, but i think that Br:mad:ce B:mad:g would lay down the hammer like nobody else!! provided you can pull him away from his digging game!

[Peter D.]

Your point is... PanAm sucks ? ;)

I am soooo happy to be out of the PanAm sh:mad:thole... I drunk a couple beers on this fact, and i didn't even bother the headache the day after:rolleyes:

[Harcipotter]

This thread gets more and more interesting...

Does somebody know any of the 19 things the instructors at Baotou asked for?

I'm also an ex Pan Pan instructor who is sooooo happy to be somewhere else flying safely.

As all of you mates are explaining here, Pan Pan is a senseless joke from head to toe. But you know what's funnier... trying to change it or, what's even worse, trying from the outside to encourage the poor guys who are still there to put their heads between a stomp and an axe.

Anyone who tried to change anything at Pan Pan failed miserably (and I include myself). The Chinese management will never accept any of your demands guys... they are so haughty they'll retain your pay checks, ground you or even fire you, before admitting they are wrong and paying attention to a subordinate's advice. THEY WON'T LOSE FACE. No matter how wrong they are or how dangerous the consequences of their actions are...

Let's face reality. People left there are just trying to get a living while waiting for a better job. Asking them to fight for something they'll never achieve, and get the sack (like my friend who started this thread) is plain retarded.

I would say the majority of us cared about the quality of the instruction given there initially... until we realized what was going on!. Nobody cares anymore because it's not up to them (and it's never been)

Anyone who knows me also knows I tried to fight some issues there and, like I said before, failed miserably...

As a good friend of mine (who also left) said once: "I don't want my finger prints on that train wreck".

China is not ready for aviation and won't be in some decades.

Chinese culture is not compatible with pilot training (they rather train brainless machines)

Anyway, I wish the best to all the good guys left there.

I don't know who said so, but... Mr. Ding never left, he was fired.

Take care,

The dirty Spaniard.

P.S.: Russ, my man, get the hell outta there. Don't bother finishing contracts they use to wipe their dirty and smelly asses.

[spacemanspiff8]

all jokes aside though, i really hope something good comes from this job action.

but, if nothing happens, just leave! the industry is going crazy right now. people are getting turbine jobs with 200tt!!!!:ok:

a far cry from when the ink was still wet on my liscence 5 years ago! 5000tt for right seat on a navajo!:rolleyes:

[EX-FED]

For anyone interested in something other than my guitar playing, here is an excerpt from an article I found online. I guess this comes "straight from the horses mouth."

After reading this, we may all understand the losing battle to foster and promote general aviation in China, especially as a foreigner from a free country.

Reading these comments from Minster Yang should be a warning sign to all. As stated in several previous postings, China is a long way from building the infrastructure needed to support flight training and general aviation as we know it. And now you're hearing it from the Minister himself.

Food for thought, anyway.

Enjoy:

"China has very good potential" for business jets, said Yang Guoqing, deputy director general of China's counterpart to America's Federal Aviation Administration, in a meeting with Kansas Gov. Kathleen Sebelius in October.

But Yang avoided discussing China's key regulatory issue --opening its skies to small-plane traffic -- in his meeting with the governor.

For decades, Chinese airspace has been controlled by the People's Liberation Army, which gives military routes priority over other aircraft. The Chinese military tends to resist challenges to its power.

Beyond that, smaller aircraft would further tax an already burdened aviation infrastructure. China has far fewer airports than the United States. Small aircraft also require air traffic controllers and other support to fly safely and efficiently.

Some officials predict relaxed regulation by the 2008 Olympics in Beijing, but others view that skeptically.

"There isn't the infrastructure," said Wu Song, who advises the Chinese government on aviation policy.

Another barrier is Chinese culture itself. For decades, officials and businessmen have flown on airliners, and many see no reason to change. Personal aircraft are still seen as distasteful displays of wealth by much of the public.

[flyingzorro]

first of all i am so surprised that my rather crazy post gave such intersting replies.

i do not bear any grudge to any foreigner who has been or who is currently working at panam

i just feel so sorry to see how things are going since i have left

like all the others i really thought this place and this country had great potential for aviation and i actually felt proud to be part of it

while i was there i worked and worked with only the students and the school in mind, without worring about politics

after some time though i have realized that this place is ONLY about politics, because if you want to get anything done you are just banging your head against a wall of misunderstanding and at times even suspicion

i am glad to see that the panam debate is getting more to the point, which is aviation training, general aviation and commercial aviation in china

as long as the people there dont understand that the we the foreigners are here to HELP and share our knowledge and experience to make the chinese skies a better place, well... it will remained restricted, undeveloped and dangerous ...

[Newark Newbie]

I just received a confirmed report that the BPIAA management has agreed to all 19 demands issued by the flight instructors at the Bautou base.

Understand that this agreement is in theory only and should be monitored closely with definitive deadlines for implementation. We've seen this sort of activity before - (refer to my previous post).

CONGRATULATIONS GUYS, but sleep with one eye open!

Blue Skies :ok:

[nijiggajigga]

Here were the 19 items:
1: Pan Am will publish, in English and Chinese, a Search and Rescue Plan for each base.

2. Each flying aircraft will be equipped with a survival kit. See Flight Standards for a complete list of its contents.

3. All flying aircraft, students and instructors will be equipped with VFR navigational charts. If the Navigational Affairs Department still lacks the ability to provide this essential piece of equipment, Flight Standards will be given all needed resources to accomplish this.

4. Each aircraft in Pan Am’s fleet will be equipped with a seat cushion to aid student visibility

5. Pan Am’s ATC employees are subject to further training and observation at the direction of the Chief Pilot, Assistant Chief CFI or Standards Department.

6. No student will be allowed to skip Stage Checks to take a CAAC Flight Test unless it has been approved by the Flight Standards Department or Chief Flight Instructor.

7. Any decision by Pan Am Dispatch can be overruled immediately by the Chief Flight Instructor, Assistant Chief CFI, or the highest ranking flight instructor present. This policy will be published and clearly worded for all employees.8. Dispatch will acquire and display ALL current and available weather information.

9. Under no circumstances will an instructor ever be suspended without pay.

10. The only employees with the power to ground an instructor are the Chief Flight Instructor, Assistant Chief Flight Instructors, or the Flight Standards Manager. If an instructor is to be grounded it must be approved by one of the above and may always be overruled by the Chief Flight Instructor.

11. The cafeteria at Baotou base will be open, and making hot food, for longer hours.

12. Pan Am will always give written explanation of the location, return date and reason for needing instructor passports.

13. Pan Am will never keep passports for longer then one month without specific justification and DAILY written notice of the passport’s location and status.14. Pan Am will deliver Temporary Licenses in no less then one month after passing a CAAC practical test or send the instructor to Beijing to investigate personally.15. Pan Am will deliver Permanent Licenses in no less then two months after passing a CAAC practical test or send the instructor to Beijing to investigate personally.

16. Pan Am will never withhold a Permanent License or Medical Documents from an instructor under any circumstances.

17. Pan Am will return all original medical documents to Instructors immediately.

18. Pan Am will return all Foreign Expert Certificates to Instructors immediately.

19. Pan Am will clarify in writing the legal working status of all Instructors working in Baotou, Wuhai and Handan with the Foreign Expert Certificates issued from the Beijing Office.

[Harcipotter]

This company has agreed to do things so many times... and yet done nothing or just done it for a couple of weeks (or even days)

1.- That will be: a) Never published, or b) Be a joke.

2.- Will be doe for sure. We all know Pan Pan was never about money...

3.- The truth is... there are no charts!!. Are you going to tell me you are going to get those kids to fly visual??? hahaha...

4.- Another thing that will be solved with money. This is negligible talking about real problems the company faces.

5.- No comments...

6.- Unless his daddy or uncle is someone with big money...

7.- Who's banging one of the dispatchers.... let me guess... you'll do what she says.

8.- Then half pay will do... and I know what I'm talking about.

Summarizing all the ones talking about documents: That should have never been allowed. Nobody fought that when they should, and it's not that I'm trying to get any medal here, but I was the ONLY ONE who refused to give his foreign expert's certificate in. EX-FED knows what I'm talking about very well, as this was discussed between him, Jessica and myself in his office. I was basically told that being the only one who didn't follow the instructions, I was by no means going to be paid until I gave it in...

You all know who's to blame for all the problems with licenses and passports. Don't ask him to be effective, as he'll never be; just ask for his head and get f:mad:ing T:mad: W:mad: outta there!!.

It's good to see everybody got together and demanded what's right and I really hope you get all you asked for, but being realistic: I would not count on getting half of those demands taken to practice.

Thanks for that Nick ;)

Take care and good luck!

[EX-FED]

I am in total agreement with Newbie, Potter, and yes; even you, Zorro! (good last post, by the way).

I really hope General Sam has won this battle, but the war is far from over. Even if the internal conflicts and safety issues are resolved, there are still the external issues that are going to suffocate the flight training.

As Newbie stated, I've sat through these "dog and pony" shows several times and heard the same promises over, and over, and over again. We all did. Monitor the progress daily!!

Regardless, my hat's off to DB and his crew in Bautou.

Howard

[flyingzorro]

hahahahahahahahaha

that brings back a lot of memories

thank you whatisitthatthey

the lone ranger strikes again
the alamo hasnt ran out of ammo yet !

hahahahaha

[nijiggajigga]

whatisthathey you gotta realize, it's been said over and over again and it should have been obvious from the moment you signed that contract.. Chinese managers rarely support the foreign managers.. and that policy that HD wrote up was never authorized, just like 99% of the improvements that Pat, Howard, and other managers tried to implement. You can't blame good managers for trying to push improvements to moral, fatigue, and safety, however when those things conflict with the Chinese managers view of "work work work, no need for safety, just graduate students who cares how well they fly" then it's obvious the one who calls all the shots.. (Ahem Mr. Tu, the biggest LIAR i have ever met in the 25 years of my life) then you're gonna loose. If you think Mr. Ding was a brick wall when it came to company suggestions.. then Mr. Tu is the Great Wall of China.

[flyingzorro]

what policy are we talking about here?

no more banked days?
is it supposed to be an incentive?

i notice the way the students are described as "products"
like cheap goods coming out of a factory ...
whatever the cost, no matter how badly you treat the people who work there, the factory has got to keep going 24/7 to keep the bosses happy

it doesnt matter if there are mid air collisions from time to time, or planes catching high power lines, the factory has got to keep delivering the goods so that the boss can buy himself a brand new BMW every 6 months

[whatisthathey]

Dear nijiggajigga,

Please read again:

The instructors must be available to engage their students in a productive activity, even if we can't fly. That is what we are being paid to do. Additionally, all instructors will still be assigned 12 hour duty days.

hehe, yes it was an improvement. But in which direction:confused: Maybe to please the Chinese managers...

12 hours duty day, what a joke.

[spacemanspiff8]

what i find hilarious is that this thread is now made up mostly of EX-panamer's (myself included)!! i left china in december of 2006 and yet cant seem to pull myself away from it! these pprune threads are more addictive than crack!!

one more thing, im currently going through a bit of a spat with revenue canada regarding my "overseas income" while in china. any canadians working there or who have worked there feel free to PM me to find out EXACTLY what is required by revenue canada so you dont have to pay canadian taxes on your chinese income.

[training wheels]

Hey, I just saw their ad on climbto350. They have some kind of sponsorship program for those without flight instructor's ratings. They must be desperate!

For the commercially rated pilots interested in obtaining a flight instructor rating:

The pilot who get the flight instructor rating in their country will be employed by BPIAA for one term of contract. BPIAA will reimburse qualified applicants for the cost of their rating after completion of the first contract. If interested in this sponsorship program and the job opportunity in China, please contact us for further details.

[whatisthathey]

By X on PPRUNE about Panam:
Yes, I'm still "carrying my cross" over here in China
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=246851&page=2



By citationXtreme on PPRUNE about X:
Where were you when he was crucify?
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=283450&page=9


X is JESUS!!!!

By X on PPRUNE:
But until you changed your perspective and way of looking at the world (the world REALLY DO NOT owed you a living!)
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=246851&page=2


By citationXtreme on PPRUNE:
http://www.pprune.org/forums/images/icons/mpangel.gif The world do not owed you a living, neither does HD!
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=283450&page=9


The X battles:



By CitationXtreme on PPRUNE about X:
Sometimes we have to fight for the things we believe, but when you know no matter how hard you fight, you are fighting a losing battle, should you continue?



X is Jesus, he fight a losing battle, but remenber he do not owed you a living!!!!!!!

X and CitationXtreme the same LIAR, the same person.








By X on PPRUNE:
I really shouldn't be waisting my time writing comments on a message board. But, when my instructors are in the right, I will come to their defense at all costs. Maybe if Mexican Jack would have stuck around a little longer with this terrible company, he would be reaping some of the rewards I have now offered to my top instructors:

1. $2000.00 CASH bonus for completion of the first contract.
2. $1000.00 CASH bonus for each instructor referral that is hired.
3. $10.00 per hour bonus for each hour flown over 70 hours per month.
4. 2 days off with pay and a 200RMB gift certificate for superior evaluations.
5. FO program in 737 freight operations for company recommended instructors who complete 2 years with the company which includes a Type Rating.
6. Senior Instructor positions with a starting salary of $2200.00 per month.

The company has also announced the purchase of 3 Avanti aircraft for future 135 operations.
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=246851&page=2

Please read again what he wrote: "Maybe if Mexican Jack would have stuck around a little longer with this terrible company, he would be reaping some of the rewards I have now offered to my top instructors:"

1. $2000.00 CASH bonus for completion of the first contract.

Who got that?

2. $1000.00 CASH bonus for each instructor referral that is hired.

Who got that?

4. 2 days off with pay and a 200RMB gift certificate for superior evaluations

Who got that?

5. FO program in 737 freight operations for company recommended instructors who complete 2 years with the company which includes a Type Rating.

The company has also announced the purchase of 3 Avanti aircraft for future 135 operations


Who got that?

Answer: nobody. Howard: LIAR, FAKE.





Do you want some more?

X wrote in a Panam email (01-01-07):
I negotiate with the leaders for promotions and salary increases. I fight for your time off. I fight to keep your jobs secure.

:hmm: Our time off decreased after your arrival at PanAm, our pay increased after your departure.

Have a look, he wrote this email the 19-10-2006:
I believe President Y has been more than generous allowing weekends off during the stand down.
The "banked days" IS NOT part of the contractual agreement between PanAm and the employee. It is an incentive offered by the flight department to allow an extra work day in the schedule and accumulating up to 20 days per contract period for extra time off.

If the abuse of the system continues, I will have no alternative but to suspend the banked day policy. I hope it does not come to this, but my patience is wearing thin.


That how he fought for us





X wrote (31-12-2006) (about his girlfriend training in the Citation):
Not to worry Mr. Field....after receiving your email I have notified the
leaders, and I will be paying for her Type myself.


EX FED, CitationXtreme, ZBOW or die, Imotep, Harry pothead are the same person. Pay attention when you read their post, your are not supposed to know they are the same person.



In October 2006:
Ladies and Gentlemen:

The General Operations Manual is currently being revised. This manual will contain PanAm Policy and Procedures, Company Structure, Job Descriptions, Disciplinary and Administrative Actions, Emergency Response Procedures, and contact lists.

This publication will be made available to each employee. Revisions to the manual, as they occur, will be distributed to each employee. Each employee will be responsible for performing the revision and updating the list of effective pages.

General Manager / Director of Flight Training
Beijing PanAm International Aviation Academy

Who have seen this manual??????







Do you want some more? X and his friends (girl-)

X wrote the 01-11-06
Ladies and Gentlemen:

On October 31st, President Y formally announced and published my promotion to the level of Division Manager of Flight Training

Again who the fight?

the 01-11-2006 X wrote:

President Y has tasked me in structuring the tiers below me. This was a 2 week process where Mr. Y and I discussed what was needed to make the operation more efficient and safe. During our meetings, several people were considered for these positions and promotions, and the final results are now ready to publish. Effective immediately, the following personnel changes have been implemented.

General Manager - Flight Training Department I
:mad:

He will assume the position of GM of Flight Training Department I. He will not be formally moved into this position until after Pat leaves in February due to the 2006 manning quota. Basically, he will be in training along side me during this transition period, such as I was with Pat. I will slowly be handing him some of my duties to take charge of. He is more than likely going to take charge of any base we may open in the U.S. when, and if, that time comes.

Manager / Flight Standards
:mad:




30 days after, yes 30 days after that s the email we received:
Ladies and Gentlemen:

Due to the recent departure of :mad: and :mad: to the CE-525 training course, the following changes within the flight department have been made:

So we know now for who you were fighting. 30 days after having been nominated as MANAGER they were already back in US flying the CJ1... and the manager positions became available, what a quick change. :mad: and :mad: lucky guys right?

So now read again: This was a 2 week process where Mr. :mad: and I discussed what was needed to make the operation more efficient and safe.

Yes a 2 weeks process!!!! but after 30 days they were already flying the CJ1!

And at the same time far away from politics we were flying, we were doing the job...

X you wrote the 31-12-2006 (happy new year:)):
There are going to be 3 others trained in March along with
:mad: and the Chinese pilots, providing you are willing to sign an
additional 18 month training contract

nobody else than your girlfriend were trained by March 2006.

[nijiggajigga]

You're probably the most mentally-challenged person I've ever seen on this forum...

You really think Howard has the maturity of an 8-year old, and making multiple accounts?

Leave the moderating work to the moderators and administrators of this forum.


And as a thought for this reply.. your so inside the closet you're entering Narnia. Do you have any idea what you're even talking about? All of those things you posted, were never approved by Chinese Management. Simon (from the UK) was sent to get his CJ type rating. Once he got to the states, Chinese management denied him and brought him back. Simon already has turbine time in similar aircraft. HD didn't make that decision. For having 2 CJ's, only 1 that works (so I've been told) do you really need more than 4 instructors? If your so anal about hanging around on the glipse hope of Pan Am letting you fly it, break a leg doing just that. You have a better chance of paying for your own 747 type rating and grabbing a job with a major airline than waiting for Pan Am to get you your type rating (on an aircraft probably no longer airworthy to fly). In addition to that, let me ask you this. How many instructor meetings have you had since the departure of HD? When I first got to BPIAA I had a meeting in SJZ every month, ran by HD. When HD was moved to Baotou, you know how many I had? Zero. I wasn't in Baotou but for 1 month before I moved to Wuhai. So tell me, has anyone actually held any type of effective meetings since HD's departure? Has anyone tried to implement new things (and actually had them approved by Chinese Management)? I left Pan Am 2 months ago... and not one thing was improved. Not safety, not financially, not ethically. It wasn't until a large amount of instructors headed off to Beijing for interviews for that Jordanian flight school did managers start getting their panties wet... Many valid complaints were brought up in that meeting. Know how many complaints were solved? If I recall correctly, just one. You have us to thank for getting them to install that big air conditioner in YOUR flight instructor office.

I would say at least 75% of the items brought up on that letter written by Derek had been brought up in that meeting, that's how I know they haven't been dealt with.

I say two things in my closing statements...

1) Read the fine print of your contract, and view the whole picture (not just your 1-sided opinion)

2) Pan Am loves you :suspect:

[spacemanspiff8]

russherwood says,

"A lot of us here in PanAm are sick and tired of the infamous "Disrespect and Humiliation..." forum that is mostly run by ex-employees of PanAm who left over a year or more ago and depict a rather sad and dramatically skewed picture of this company.

From the above forum it appears that PanAm is the worse flight school in the world and other schools are absolutely perfect. A lot of us find it ridiculously incorrect and offensive. All flight schools have problems, positive and negative sides, although only, as said above, "mentally-challenged" will focus strictly on the negative sides and miss out the positive. :="


if you go back through this thread, youll find 12 posts by mr sherwood saying absolutely nothing good about panam. still tryin to wrap my head around this!!

[nijiggajigga]

I don't need to convince you of anything, nor do I need to define, elaborate, or go further into detail with my words.

Where am I? I'm flying for a Charter airline...

-Operated by EXPERIENCED managers
-Maintained by properly trained & certified FAA mechanics
-Flown with REAL AVGAS (100LL)
-Flown with ZERO standby's
-Flown within 2 miles of military traffic (KC135 low alt flyby, C130 low alt flyby, F16's ILS approach
-Flown within 2 miles of commercial traffic on arrival (Northwest A330, 747-200, Asiana A321, Continental Express ATR42, Air China 737-800 and more)


You want hard facts? You are a 6-year old sissy. Your one-sided views do nothing but show those unfortunate pprune readers how little your ability to understand the sole fact that Chinese management RARELY supported any decisions made by Howard, Pat, Justin, Ron, Toshi, Noel, Peter, Mattieu, Jonathon, Philip, and any standards instructor.

I should whack you upside the face with my reality bat..

And where in the world did you comprehend that I went out and got my own 747 type rating? I never said I did, nor did I even come close to offering the slightest glimpse of implying that.

No wonder why you can't understand my posts... your head is too clouded with falsifications by instructors who do not have the capabilities to see the whole picture, rather they fall into the category of those who blame and point fingers, instead of those like Derek Butler who try to improve the school... all of those people I mentioned above, and you can throw my name in there as well.. as well as Tony Soloman, Robin, and everyone else who opened Wuhai (including myself), all of those people who were BS'ed around in Handan waiting for that base to open fit into that category. I bet you have no idea how they were treated in Handan. Don't come to me telling me I don't know the facts. I get my information from the majority of instructors who I still remain good friends with... try doing the same, instead of drawing your conclusions based on the opinions of ill-informed instructors.

[spacemanspiff8]

you know what i miss the most about china? the extensive use of the word "maybe"! i swear thats the first word they learn in english due to its remakable versatility.

"maybe next week..."

"maybe we get air conditioning..."

"maybe you get pay raise..."


"I fry solo today sir...?"

"maybe not!"

[nijiggajigga]

With the students I had, their most over-used words where..

-Sorry Sir
-Okay Sir

Remarkably both words would be used repetitively during flight training, and the more times they made the same mistakes over and over again, the amount of "Sorry and Okay" were used....

But I do admit I used "maybe" quite a bit... generally answering students questions regarding if we can fly today or not... (although they would get a better answer form dispatch since dispatch never told flight instructors what was going on).

[spacemanspiff8]

i had one student who would repestedly say "ya" every time i tried to explain something to him.

"ya,ya,ya,ya,ya"

"do you understand?"

"ya,ya,ya,ya,ya"

"what did i just say?"

"uh, haha, sorry no understand"

ah good times, that guy was hilarious!

[spacemanspiff8]

youre going to fault howard for "apparently" trying to find another job while still with panam!! i didnt know that while under contract with panam you werent allowed to seek other employment, i must have missed that in my contract.

so what youre saying is that you should give your entire life to panam and NEVER look for other employment?

so you arent looking on climbto350 and other such websites for what your going to do when youre done at panam?

honestly man your personal attacks against howard are starting to border on the rediculous with regards to their substance.

[Newark Newbie]

I'll say it - JESUS CHRIST, this thread is ridiculous. Whatisthathey, I sware man, you need help.

What airline, in their right mind, would even think about hiring anyone from BPIAA after reading this sh:mad:t?

As a Class Manager, I sat in numerous meetings with the Chinese leaders. All that crap you posted in those emails were sent to everyone, man. Do you think Howard just woke up one morning and decided to print all that crap? He didn't have the authority without the Chinese approving it. Get a life, man. I heard the lies and rebuttals myself - they promised, Howard announced, they split. Simple math, man.

I don't see how anyone at that academy can even stand to be around you. You need to get out of there before you croke!!!

And I'll answer Nijajigga's question by posing another - exactly what airline do you work for?

Blue Skies :ok:

[citationXtreme]

Hahahahaha, first and foremost, I am not flying the CJ... and no I am not Howard either. You have too much time in your hand and perhaps watching the Emily Rose DVD over and over again too many times! :D When you start using names, it says a lot about your family upbringing! :{ You do not know how to respect others and obviously feels bitter that you did not get to do the CJ type-rating? Good thing you did not get selected, you just don't have IT! You claimed that instructors at Pan Am flew 10 hours a month? If you are one of them, then you are one of those that took Pan Am and the students for a ride? Ahhh... you are one of those that will find every reasons to stay in your room and think how to justify to the world and more importantly, to yourself for being such a loser? go get a life my friend! :ouch: oh? you start being blasphemous too? Do not use the name Jesus to vent your anger. Please be objective and professional and have some respect for the many christian that are also reading your crap! You seems to know nothing about Jesus, so do not use His name that way, okay? There were many others that were crucify before Jesus, and along with Jesus. You really need to get over the fact that you are nothing but a SORE LOSER! This is so sad! Yes, HD did fight, he fought for all of us against the Chinese Management, and you have no idea how many times we see him feeling so beaten, do what the Chinese want, so that he can recover and buy himself time to fight another day? HD do not have to work for BPIAA, he can get any job anywhere anyday. He stood his ground to protect all of us (including you!) until he can fight no more. My friend, over here, if you are trying to do something right, you will not last long. That was what they did to PM, to HD, and to whoever that is trying to do the RIGHT THINGS! Posting emails that was instructed by the Chinese on Pprune was so unprofessional and childish. Funny thing too, I never save any of those emails because I know they do not actually come from HD but from the Chinese through HD. I have deleted them long time ago. No wonder you could not move forward, how could you when you are still holding on to the past and crying :{:{:{ and blaming everyone but yourself. Did you have the b:mad:lls to speak up like DB? What have you done for BPIAA, fellow instructors or yourself? Sorry, I understand your frustration and pain but posting emails here? :=:=:= you are a child!

[flyingzorro]

yes i could not agree more with whatisthatthey...

furthermore, yes this thread is most interesting

far from trying to get skeletons out of the closet, this thread actually explains why the situation is so bad in Panam now

anyone who has worked at panam for some time and who has an impartial mind just knows that Texas Super Man did nothing to improve

in fact he made things worse by telling one thing to the chinese and its contrary to us
he just kept firing his guns in all directions with no apparent aim
the only thing he achieved was more chaos, more confusion and dissentions among the pilots
incompetence and ignorance have prevailed under the reign of Cowboy I

promoting people one day, revoking them the next
I think that HE is the emotional 8 year old

[emb145gearslinger]

Did anybody ever get offered an airline job after completing a second contract?

[nijiggajigga]

Which Spanish guy are you talking about?

I only remember 2.. one of them who got it up the bumhole several times by Chinese management is now flying for either a Scottish or Irish company.. I can't remember if it's an airline or a flight school.. I think there was only 3 Spaniards.. I only met 2...

[citationXtreme]

There were many many Spaniards. Another also left to work for Lufthansa Flight School in Croatia or something. M is flying a B737 in Spain. You probably wont know them. :)

[Harcipotter]

I don't know who Hudson Hawk is, but I don't think you've realized yet about where you are and the whole story of the place...

1.- As I may have said before, I left 2 months ago, while my validation was still good for "flying". The exams are not the main issue now at all as they were not 2 months ago.

2.- That policy was enforced, but gently. They offered a pay cut or a friendly leave.

3.- You got a decent hotel... congratulations!!! That is going to improve flight instruction in such a manner... :D. The Ya Thai was great to my taste, and the Golden Top had some minor issues... HOTELS WERE NEVER A PROBLEM.

4.- This has to be divided into 2 sections:
- Again, you prove you know nothing about Pan Am's history. Binzhou base and Baotou Base were the same when they begun...
- Demands were made way before I left. The only thing we got out of all that meeting was... AIR CONDITIONING IN THE INSTRUCTORS ROOM AT BAOTOU BASE :}... soooooo productive when the things that were really requested were SERIOUS SAFETY ISSUES THAT WERE SAID TO BE CONSIDERED BY VICE-PRESIDENT TU AND NEVER EVER WERE.

5.- The salary was never competitive at all, and has only been raised for the second contract. Where I'm now I just instruct PPL and I get more than the guys on their second contract who are instructing CPL, ME and IFR.

6.- YOU DON'T LIVE LIKE A KING IN CHINA AT ALL. You do save a decent amount of money, but live like a rat...

I hope you like my addition :rolleyes:.

Now tell me something I've said is not true. This is an open debate.

I admit there are some guys who didn't say the whole truth on some posts by the beginning of this thread, but twisting that into Pan Am being a great place for world aviation is really wicked...

[EX-FED]

I will have to say that I admire Hudson Hawk and the other instructors for their perserverance. It is an admirable quality, and I truly hope things turn around for everyone's sake. But, history has a tendency to repeat itself.

Now that this thread has calmed down from personal attacks (hope I didn't speak too soon), I have a few valid questions and comments. These are not meant to be sarcastic in any way, and I ask that you look at them with an open mind. As Harry said, this is for debate.

Hudson Hawk wrote:

A lot of changes already occurred and some must be emphasized:

1. The biggest concern for many new instructors, the CAAC tests preceeding our flying permission have been made almost obsolete (for the purpose of this employment) - we can fly now on CAAC validations

My question:

I am curious about these so called "validations." Hudson, can you point out in Part 61 of the CCAR's where it states a foreign pilot may act as pilot in command of a Chinese Registered Civil Aircraft without a valid Chinese Pilot Certificate? Additionaly, have you personally seen, or know a person who has personally seen, an exemption to the Part 61 rule issued by CAAC Headquarters (who are the only tier allowed to issue an exemption) allowing you to fly on a validation?

Hudson Hawk wrote:

Pan Am has never enforced "3 try" policy in relations to the CAAC exams and perhaps never will

My response:

I can personally assure you that this policy was enforced per the order of Jack Li. Ask anyone who was here during Pat's tour of duty, and you will know. It wasn't until Jack was "removed", if you want to call it that, and Tu took over the helm that we were able to change this policy because of the invalid knowledge tests. And, even then, the company required a salary cut. I personally had to discuss this with a group of instructors after the final decision was handed down by the Operational Affairs Department. Some stayed, and some took their leave. A lot of good people left. The "fly in the buttermilk is", the CAAC needs to correct those tests.

Hudson Hawk wrote:

Some negotiations and request have been satisfied. (a good example is the recent hotel switch from a 3-star to a 4 star one in Wuhai base)

My question:

I'm glad to see that the living conditions have improved. Appears to be a far cry from the mess that started in Handan. But, I'm concerned as to why negotiations and demands were made for these things, but nothing mentioned about maintenance? Do you know the requirements for inspecting an engine after a prop strike? Do you know what the tolerance is? Do you know that I requested 2 engine teardowns while I was at PanAm, and not one was done? Do you know that one prop strike took over 3 inches off of both blades? Was the engine tore down?..No. Now I ask "why?" Simple....no money.

Anyway, I'm not going to get into the rest of it. Looks like the salarys are a step in the right direction, and I'm glad it's progressing.

Those are my comments and questions in this "reasonable" debate here. Glad all you guys are doing better.

Howard

[Always Moving]

Let's see a prop was "strike" more like "savage it" and...
I ask is there going to be a tear down?
no
Can the mechanics remove a jug? to see the inside
no
Can the mechanics at least remove a plug and use a bore scope?
no

Rest my case with maintenance.

The problem is not having the final authority over grounding a plane DUDE! is that you do not have all the facts! if you would, probably all planes should be grounded! or you might go with the if it looks goo it should be good. Big MISTAKE and BIGGER in China since everything "looks good"

I said it a year ago somebody will get kill and I was close to become a shaman!

I am still battling to understand the Chinese way (for sure not the middle way) I am veering to.. "there is nothing to understand" more and more.

On this one, the cowboy is right.

[flytoo]

Hello,

Could you tell us which airplanes got a prop strike?:confused:
It would be very nice to know because we might be flying these airplanes on a daily basis without knowing about this minor problem.:)
Thanks in advance!:ok:

Flytoo

[Always Moving]

I will as soon as I get to my PC.
We can make a list of the ones we know and you guys could finish it up. I know of at least 4 strikes.

[EX-FED]

Hudson you wrote:

We get the license validation from the actual CAAC. You make it sound like they are hand-drawn with a bunch of crayons by Ted Wong in the local basement. I think the CAAC is within its rights to bend their OWN regulations and allow us to fly on the validations. After all, it was their idea to train all Chinese airline pilots in China as to feed that Chinese "pride factor" (that we all are fed-up with). I'm sure they realize that is the idiocracy with the CAAC exams continues there will be no one to teach the students and hence no one (Chinese-looking/speaking) to work for the Airlines. Needless to mention that most of airlines in China are government property and if they start hiring only ex-pats, the "pride factor" will get damaged so will the revenues if they don't hire anyone.

My comments:

Actually, I wasn't trying to make it sound like TW was writing the validations. But, you don't BEND rules and regulations; you re-write them, if necessary, to adapt to the circumstances. I'm talking FAA here, but any rule change had to go through a NPRM (Notice of Proposed Rule Making) that everyone would comment on, receive congressional approval, and then implemented into the FAR's. Now, we all know that is NOT the case in China, but there HAS to be some sort of authorization from Headquarters. I assume that there is, since you stated the validations come from CAAC. Your post brings out some very good points.

If you start "bending rules" to meet deadlines, save money, and "save face", you start jeopardizing safety. Do you concur with that statement?

Howard

P.S. What does a "glass half full" feel like? (smile) Thanks for a professional debate here.

[Always Moving]

Can anyone tell how this validation business works?
As far as I know is all a bribe scheme as usual.
But if it is as you said a legal way I would REALLY like to know....

You have to have water in the glass to start seeing it half full.

[Newark Newbie]

I left BPIAA before all these validations came into place, so this is all news to me.

I'm curious if the validations are issued based on a practical test with the CAAC Examiner, or if they just issue them outright?

I can possibly see the CAAC validating the knowledge portion due to the screwed up test, but I can't see them risking signing off someone to fly contrary to their own regulations without giving them a practical test.

I guess what I'm asking here, is if there is an incident with a validated pilot, who get's the guillotine?

Blue Skies :ok:

[spacepodlife]

Hawk,

A validation is a document that recognize PIC authority for the only purpose of acting as PIC on a foreign registered aircraft in non-commercial operations. In fact, under ICAO there is no provision about granting a validation of a instructor rating. What you can validate, is an ATPL, a CPL or a PPL but in any case the validation will be done to a PPL level.

That means that even if I hold an ATPL, the validation will be done to a PPL level.

If you think about it, that's why they came out with the JAA system. No aviation authority can recognize a foreign license to act as PIC in commercial operations since every authority has different rules.

Now, an example for you: I have an ATPL issued from JAA and I need to ferry an US registered aircraft from USA to Europe for the UK company I am working with. FAA issues a validation to me, but I still can't do it, because that would be a commercial operation, since it is done for compensation. The only thing I could do in this case is to ferry my own aircraft.

One more thing, still under ICAO provisions, any certificate of validation is conditional to a local flight review and medical certificate.

[EX-FED]

Newark Newbie you wrote:


I'm curious if the validations are issued based on a practical test with the CAAC Examiner, or if they just issue them outright?

I can possibly see the CAAC validating the knowledge portion due to the screwed up test, but I can't see them risking signing off someone to fly contrary to their own regulations without giving them a practical test.



Which Practical Test are your referring to here? The;

(a) Engine Start, Contact Dispatch, Engine Shutdown Practical Test, or;

(b) the more complex Engine Start, Taxi, Normal Takeoff, Traffic Pattern, Normal Landing, Engine Shutdown Practical Test.

Now, I was an examiner for 14 years and with the FAA for 8 years. I've conducted 2884 practical tests during that time, according to my records. The most I was ever able to accomplish on any given day was 3, and 1 of those was an add-on for an additional category/class, or a re-test.

I have seen the CAAC Practical Test Standards, and it's exactly the same as the FAA Standards with a few additional maneuvers. Would someone explain to me how in the hell you can conduct 12 Practical Tests in one day in accordance with the Practical Test Standards? That is correct; 12 tests.

So, once again the "rules are bent" to accomodate a deadline, save money, and "save face." If you keep bending enough "rules", the twig will eventually snap and you have an accident.

[Newark Newbie]

Ex-Fed, actually I was referring to the "This is an airplane" Practical Test. :)

Spacepod, you seem to be up on this validation issue. Do the foreigners who fly for the Chinese Airlines get validated, or do they have to go through the testing process for a Chinese Certificate? It appears that they would, since the aircraft is type certificated for two pilots.

If that is the case, how can the CAAC validate one and not the other. It seems like AM's theory may be correct, or they're "bending" a little more.

Blue Skies :ok:

[spacemanspiff8]

you know what else i miss about china?!?

copyright infringement!!

everything from software to DVDs to aviation liscences!! :ok:


hell one time i even saw a street vendor with a towel laid out on the sidewalk selling chinese passports and foreign expert certificates (BB can attest to this also). so if panam ends up refusing to give you your expert certificates back, go see this guy, he may be able to help you. he was right outside the dairy queen by dong fang in the shiz! :E

[spacepodlife]

Newark Newbie,

The foreign Captains hired by Chinese airlines have to pass the CAAC ATPL written test and a sim ride. Their license is then fully converted to CAAC license and type rating. The so called "training" they undergo is actually a CAAC written test indoctrination plus line training.

I know of a few Canadian Captains hired by China Southern Airlines in 2005 that were unable to pass the written and they had to go back to Canada. Since then the CAAC questions database seems to be available to some airlines though...

By the way, how's the Hudson river view from where you are?

[flytoo]

Hi!
here is a question for the CAAC written test:
lacks or losses the self-awareness in the ( ) influence servant, as cannot correct cognition and the situation usually displays for overestimates oneself, risk tendentionsness advances
A. Alcohol
B. Sedative
C. Hypotensor
it comes directly from the databank, an easy one.
Have fun:ok:

[training wheels]

Hi!
here is a question for the CAAC written test:
lacks or losses the self-awareness in the ( ) influence servant, as cannot correct cognition and the situation usually displays for overestimates oneself, risk tendentionsness advances
A. Alcohol
B. Sedative
C. Hypotensor
it comes directly from the databank, an easy one.
Have fun:ok:
Flytoo, that's an easy one. The answer is A. Alcohol. Key phrases are "lack or losses of self-awareness" and "usually displays for overestimates oneself"

Just filter out the grammar when reading Chinese translations ;) :ok:

[Newark Newbie]

Spacepod - I'm in Irvington (west of Liberty Airport), so I don't have a good view of the Hudson from here. :)

Flytoo - That's classic!

I pulled up the following bulletin regarding prop strikes (all of this type of information is available via the internet).


The bulletin reads as follows:

"On numerous occasions, Textron Lycoming has been consulted about recommendations on whether to continue using an aircraft engine that has been involved in the separation of the propeller/rotor blade from the hub, the loss of a propeller/rotor blade tip or sudden stoppage following accidental propeller/rotor damage (such as propeller/rotor strike).

Conditions which surround accidents are many and varied; therefore the circumstances of the accident can not, in our opinion, be used to predict the extent of the damage to the engine or assure its future reliability.

Textron Lycoming must take the position that in the case of a sudden stoppage, propeller/rotor strike or loss of propeller/ rotor blade or tip, the safest procedure is to remove and disassemble the engine and completely inspect the reciprocating and rotating parts including crankshaft gear and dowel parts.

Any decision to operate an engine which was involved in a sudden stoppage, propeller/rotor strike or loss of propeller/rotor blade or tip without such an inspection must be the responsibility of the agency returning the aircraft to service.

Even tip damage is considered cause for teardown :hmm:

Lycoming's Service Bulletin 475B requires that in the event that the engine has experienced a propeller strike, inspection and possible rework of the accessory gear train as well as the rear of the engine's crankshaft is required. Compliance with this service bulletin is mandatory per AD 91-14-22. :ugh:

The AD specifies the inspection at each engine overhaul, after a propeller strike, sudden stoppage, or whenever gear train repair is required. Lycoming's new SB seems to generalize the term propeller strike and sudden stoppage to be quite inclusive."

Be careful out there, and check those maintenance records! :uhoh:

Blue Skies :ok:

[nijiggajigga]

Be careful out there, and check those maintenance records!

One can not do this..

1) BPIAA maintenance records are in SJZ for some unknown reason.. instead of at the base where the aircraft is based out of.

2) BPIAA forbids foreign people and most Chinese people (non-mechanics) from looking at the maintenance records.

3) BPIAA also forbids foreign people and most Chinese people (non-mechanics) from looking at the aircraft maintenance log (the one filled out and signed "Preflight Inspection" before every flight by a mechanic who may or may not have actually done a preflight inspection).

[flytoo]

Hello!

What about telling us airplane tail numbers for the prop strikes?:confused:
Some airplanes are shaking a lot when at cruise, could they be good candidates? and RPM fluctuations too.
Any tail number to share:confused:

happy flying and good bla bla:ok:

Flytoo

very nice to get information, just need to filter a little:D

[flytoo]

Hello,
According to James reason, PhD, formely affiliated with the department of Psychology at the University of Manchester and recognized as one of the world's leading authorities on human error, organizations with a "manifest lack of organizational safety culture" are much more likely to have higher accident rates. Closely related to this is a group norm that accepts violations as normal conduct, and a perception that bending rules will be tolerated and even celebrated. Dr Reason's extensive research in human error has also found that organizations with poor supervision and checking, as well as a perceived lack of management care and concern also contribute to a propensity for accidents.
Do you see something familiar?:confused:
It seems that we are in such a group and our organization doesn't seems too concerned with flight safety.
Just think about it! Each time we are flying we might be in the next incident or accident.
Happy flying!:ok:

[nijiggajigga]

Tell us more about the crash that happened in your "charter airline".

What, you can't read?

How many times do you have to ask that question?

The crash happened August 11th, 2006. I started September 2007. 1 year AFTER that crash. From what I read in the archives is the pilot took off with the fuel selector on a wingtip tank that was empty. Even to this day Taga Air still doesn't use wingtip tanks, we only use the 25 gallon main tanks.

Since you still want my opinion on something that happened way before I even joined the company, I'll give you a few more links to read... your 39 years old (so you say) you should be able to use your brain and draw your own conclusion...

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20060817X01207&key=1
http://www.saipantribune.com/newsstory.aspx?cat=1&newsID=60154
http://www.saipantribune.com/newsstory.aspx?newsID=55287&cat=1

Would you like me to post you more articles or are you capable of going to google.com yourself?

[Harcipotter]

To whatisthathey: Even if the company anybody else is working for has an atrocious maintenance team, that doesn't make Pan Am good... that was really chilidish...

To Hudson Hawk: Reading one of your previous posts.... You say they are hiring Chinese instructors because they have no choice but to do so; again you prove your ignorance: They were doing so way before all this happened, by the time they were still firing instructors because of student reports, invalid tests, etc...

It was something all foreigners suspected: they were trying to get their own crew, and when they did so, they won't need us anymore.

Of course you didn't know Mr.:mad: (ring my bell...) got fired because of hiring military guys to instruct without a civil license at Handan, did you?

Again, nobody is lying here. We're just stating facts to let people know what Pan Am really is, don't try to fool anybody.

IF YOU CANNOT DENY (as you know it's true) ANYTHING THAT HAS BEEN SAID HERE, HOW CAN YOU STILL DEFEND THAT COMPANY AFTER ALL?!?!?! :eek:

You really have proven you ignore how does the company work at any level. You know nothing about the recruitment or ground school there, (which should be the basement for any formation) You absolutely ignore how does management work. You seem to be willing to make deaf ears to all the facts about the company's background.

Really, after all this time and you didn't get anything... Pan Am definitely suits you. You'll do a 3rd and even a 5th contract, I would say.

As one dark friend told me once there ;): "Keep dancing to Pan Am's music..."

[flytoo]

A few thoughts of the famous chinese Lao Zi:

1. Don't believe what they say. Believe what they do.
2. They don't do what they say. They don't say what they do.

Happy flying:ok:

[nijiggajigga]

HAHA Those 2 sentences sums up those Chinese managers all too well

[nijiggajigga]

Name 1 thing Pan Am did to improve safety?

Improving employment is one thing.. but they only know how to do it on the ground.

Did you forget your job is teaching students how to fly... and your tool is an airplane that in any other country would be rendered unairworthy due to lack of maintenance, lack of maintenance records, and lack of AD compliance?

[Harcipotter]

Tell me things that I said that are not current, and stop talking bull****.

You talk like a bad politician: You talk too much and say nothing.

You guys left the company such a log time ago and still manage to make it your duty to come here and leave the most depressing comments about things that happened in the past and no longer relevant, completely dismissing the good changes and positive aspect of this employment. There are many! We still here !Your positive points are:

1.- You got your "Foreign Expert Certificate" back. Well, that is so helpful for working at that company. The expert cerificate is only good for changing jobs in China, so if you are intending to stay at Pan Am... what do you want it for???

2.- You got some medical reports back. They are good for absolutely nothing...

3.- You got a pay-rise of 300$ a month. Which still doesn't make it competitive at all.

4.- You have a swimming pool. No comments.

5.- You got survival kits. As Nick perfectly said: You're getting ready for the worst, as the maintenance problems haven't been solved at all... Good on you.

6.- You are flying more at Wuhai. What about the rest of the bases? What about telling the truth for once and admitting that happened at Baotou and Binzhou when they had few instructors as you have right now at Wuhai?

7.- Pan Am is evolving fast. You lie again. Pan Am has been open for around 4 years now, and nothing has changed for good, just minor things as the ones you just got now. After minor improvements, always major crap came by. AGAIN: In 10 bloody months nothing changed for good, is that fast evolving for you?

I didn't leave that long ago.... only 2 months buddy...

8.- You got fancy cushions for the planes. No comments.

9.- You save money. That was never denied, but the quality of the life you have there is really low. If you want to enjoy something then you must go to Beijing or other big city, where you won't be saving anything. And, believe me when I tell you that the difference in salary is so big, that even with the expenses I have here, I'm not saving less than I was saving there at all.
So:

Have you got any real improvement in safety? (please state something that's not the already mentioned survival kits)

Has the ATC improved there?

Do you have updated databases for the G1000, or are you still working with the ones the planes brought in them 4 years ago?

Has the ground school changed at all? Do they still use people who only have seen airplanes on pictures to teach ATP stuff?

Do you have a proper weather office with current weather and not the dispatch crew peeping out of the window and saying there are 10k when you can't see anything?

Do you have access to the maintenance records now?

Have the maintenance guys any course on Lycoming engines or DA40 maintenance or do they still use Duck tape to fix cracks and leave fuel gaskets disconnected after installing an engine?

A solo STUDENT took passengers the other day and nothing happened as usual. Am I talking about the past here too?

Again you talk bull**** when you say that anybody who left ran from challenges. People stood as much as they needed and got into real challenges (not like you, who are almost a ghost there dancing at Pan Am's music).

So, If you feel like the bravest man in the world, a pioneer because of staying at a **** hole like that good on you :D, but please realize of your incongruity (and you can't miss this.. it's in the same post!!!):

Again, you may choose to run away from challenges and degree of risks while we remain, be part of it, participate and observe it's evolution with a great interest, perhaps making the historyI'm not a career instructor. Although I'm here to have fun, experience foreign culture (could be rather disgusting from time to time but again - run away from challenges as far as you can!) save more money then you EVER could at your EU flightschool employment and once hours/cash target is achieved - move on.:eek::eek::eek::eek:

You depict Pan Am as a place to forget about everything that surrounds you and get hours and money, dismissing anything that has to do with really implementing any aviation standard in a country that has no aviation culture at all (really, you have proven you couldn't care less about what's being done there), and then run to the next step. And still you consider yourself as part of something bigger, a project, the rising of the sleeping dragon... Please quit all that, you're kidding nobody but yourself!

We are depicting Pan Am the way it is, you are trying to fool people and that's not nice. :=

I never came into this forum to complain about Pan Am initially until I saw you lying like you are doing... :yuk:

So please answer my questions and say 1 thing I've said that's obsolete. I'm not asking for more than one... it should be easy unless you are full of **** in this matter...

Well... I think that should be enough for today... I have better things to do than talking to a wall...

[Newark Newbie]

I think that just about sums it up!

Blue Skies :ok:

[nijiggajigga]

Russell I once thought the exact thing like you...

Oh Pan Am is getting better...

Well after 11 months at Pan Am, I realized how much I had lied to myself, much like you are doing to yourself right now.

BPIAA isn't improving. Sure you may be getting 300 dollars more.. but guess what.. what good is that 300 dollars gonna do if you have an engine failure with B-9135 in the desert? What good is your foreign expert certificate gonna do then?

You think of only material things that you can possess.. when the key to improving Pan Am lays in 2 key departments...

1) Ground school
2) Maintenance

As far as the survival kits go... it's good to be prepared for the worst.. but that does nothing as far as the prevention of the worst from happening.

[nijiggajigga]

Wow deja vu

[flytoo]

Hello,


He said also:

Sincere words are not wise.
Wise words are not sincere.

Have a nice day:ok:

[JSF1]

Thank god I have my first aid kit, this is really gonna help me in my 200km trek across the desert with a broken leg. Thanxxx panam

You guys are obviously too busy quoting reason & enjoying those fancy new cushions to realise that no1 cares about you. (And if you really cared about safety, you would leave)

Panam is evolving? hahahaha.
If you define evolution as a pool, your BS documents & some extra cash, you are spot on right there. Maybe soon you can actually use those transponders huh?

[Harcipotter]

Well... at least I see you backed up a little.

You've answered none of my previous questions...

Anyway, the only pros you talk about are subject to conditions:

- get a lot of flight hours ONLY if you are sent to Wuhai, which as you said has only 7 airplanes. No twins, no maintenance center and no IFR training going on. As soon as more guys join the crew there you'll find yourself in the same situation as the guys in Baotou, excluding the fact that they have twins and IFR training...

- very advanced aircraft and the best avionics It is a real shame that such a nice fleet has been made such a dangerous one by maintenance. So, yes, it would be great to fly those planes, but somewhere else where they are not such a potential danger to your health and integrity.

So (and I think this is the 3rd of 4th time I ask) please tell me where's the real evolution. I already stated all the points you did as pros, and again you gave me no answer...

And truly: I don't want to see people joining that company thinking it is something it is not and keep feeding the big pig Pan Am is. They've already had enough... it is time they pay for their present sins.

Tailwinds

[Harcipotter]

But this dinosaur is evolving and evolving fastThis is what YOU said.... there's not any evolution, that's simply why you try to back off in such a cowardly manner.

In Wuhai there are 8 dispatch people. (We only have 7 airplanes!)Again YOUR words... whether you are lying now or you were before.

They are building a maintenance center... therefore, you don't have one. And you don't have any twins the same way you're lack of any IFR training...

Seriously, what are you trying to say :confused:

Fly safe...

[nijiggajigga]

If BPIAA is such a good place, why are you the only one still here praising it?

If we're wrong.. then ignore us. There's no reason to argue with us... we all had bad experiences with BPIAA and you can't change that fact... but since you're the only one still activly posting here.. makes you appear you're the only one in the boat and treading lots of water.

All those improvements to your living conditions and that extra pay raise.. congradulations.. I guess you forget there are other people who work in BPIAA who work their butts off, yet what they make in a month you make in a week. By the way... has maintenance improved? How's B-9135, has it's engine been torn apart to see if there has been any internal parts damaged or are you all anticipating that the "survival" kit is going to save your life?