Cessna crash Bristol area

[eyeinthesky]

Heard rumours of a C152 crashing this afternoon. Any news?

[Blueskyrich]

I was in the Bristol zone at the time, as weather (mostly localised showers)approached from the south. I turned back north in the Chew Valley area. Around 10 minutes later, a more local aircraft went to see if anything could be seen. Contact had been lost with a 150 (out of Clutton Hill) and 'someone had seen something out of their window'. I then left the frequency as I moved north. I hope everything was OK there. :sad:

Bluesky

[gcolyer]

That explains the circling aircraft abouve where I live. I did see a 150 extremely low flying over my house before hand!!

[eyeinthesky]

Doesn't sound good. 2 dead.:sad:

[vulcanpilot]

Only now being reported on the local news (BBC Points West) - aircraft crashed at Clutton. 2 Dead, one a youngster.

Thoughts with the family/families.

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

Some rather bad news;
BBC NEWS | England | Bristol | Crash pilot had 'taken ecstasy' (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/bristol/7499009.stm)



A pilot who died when he crashed in a field killing his teenage passenger had taken an illegal drug just hours before the accident, it has emerged.

The Air Accident Investigations Branch (AAIB) said Robert Gunter, 33, was found to have had ecstasy in his blood.
The report into last July's crash said the drug would have impaired his judgement and ability. The father of 13-year-old Jamie Clapp, who also died, expressed his anger at the pilot, who was a family friend.

[rich_g85]

I think that story actually relates to a crash last July - BBC NEWS | England | Somerset | Two dead in light aircraft crash (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/somerset/6285812.stm)

[PPRuNe Radar]

I think that story actually relates to a crash last July -

As did the original posts in this thread. It's the same accident, just with updated news about the AAIB report.

[rich_g85]

My apologies, I did check the dates on the posts but obviously managed to miss the year.

Ignore me :)

[flyems]

That explains the circling aircraft abouve where I live. I did see a 150 extremely low flying over my house before hand!!

So has the fact that the accident was 12 months ago unexplained this now? :bored:

[Katamarino]

His post was *also* 12 months ago ;)

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

I'm beginning to believe that Dr Who and Torchwood are documentaries. :ok:

[Fg Off Max Stout]

http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources/Cessna%20F150L,%20G-HFCI%2007-8.pdf

Interesting reading. This chap seems to have been the master of his own destiny and his demise was ultimately self-inflicted. The tragedy is that he took an innocent passenger with him.

Unfortunately, muppets like the so called 'commander' of this flight provide a strong case for increased regulation of private pilots (possibly including random alcohol / drug testing and regular checkrides with instructors) and bolster opposition to general aviation. This would be an unfortunate burden on GA, the majority of PPLs being far more responsible and capable.

[bjornhall]

Unfortunately, muppets like the so called 'commander' of this flight provide a strong case for increased regulation of private pilots

I believe flying after taking ecstasy is already illegal, so such a case would be pretty weak.

"Don't do that", move along, nothing to see here...

[Fg Off Max Stout]

taking ecstasy is already illegal

Those who wish to break the rules are not stopped by legislation but by enforcement. That is the reason why this chap provides a good case for random testing. A more proactive CAA might have weeded this guy out of the system and saved two lives but such proactivity would be a hindrance to the majority of PPLs who are rather more sensible.

I don't foresee widespread random testing in GA as I don't expect the CAA, police or anyone else would wish to bear the cost. RAF pilots are routinely randomly tested and I do not know a single one who thinks it unreasonable. Perhaps a hair, blood, or piss-test should be part of the CAA medical.

[bjornhall]

It might indeed be difficult to accept that other people are responsible for their own actions, whatever the outcome, but such is life. I don't see a case being made for anything based on this accident.

Pilots crashing while intoxicated is, luckily, rare, and effects very few. The big brother society on the other hand is ever present, influencing everyone, always expanding; all due to "well meaning" individuals finding "strong cases" for further regulation or enforcement whenever someone has to face the unfortunate consequences of their own, voluntary actions.

We hear complaints every day, everywhere, and rightfully in my view, of the 'nanny state' modern society has become. Witness in this thread how that comes about. The worst results, founded on what is genuinely (but wrongfully) believed to be "the best intentions".

I am an optimist though; I think drug screening of private pilots going about their own business will not happen, because it is a bad idea. Now, let's find an actual problem to solve.

What I think might be the best lesson from this accident is to be very, very careful when choosing who to go fly with; let alone who to let your children fly with. The risks of general aviation vary dramatically depending on the pilot and the standard to which he/she operates, to the point where accident statistics as a measure of risk is quite useless. The real risk will be orders of magnitudes lower --- or higher.

[LH2]

Those who wish to break the rules are not stopped by legislation but by enforcement

Well, he's not going to do that again, is he? So what is your point exactly? :rolleyes:

[Fg Off Max Stout]

He's not, now he's dead, but maybe others will. My point being that this need not have happened in the first place. It wasn't that cryptic surely! I shed no tears for the pilot but the passenger's death is appalling and a direct result of the pilot's negligence.

The pilot should not have been allowed to fly for a number of reasons, primarily his lack of ability, lack of airmanship and use of drugs. The first two were highlighted to the CAA but not acted upon. The latter could have been detected if a suitable system was in place.

I do not believe that drug testing for pilots constitutes some nanny-state big brother meddling - in my opinion it is one fundamental criterion of suitability to operate aircraft. Are policemen breathalyzing drivers infringing the drivers' rights to privacy? Are simulator assessments of ability for professional pilots big brother meddling? This is a flight safety issue and as such probably deserves a bit more consideration than :rolleyes:

Some aircraft accidents will always happen, but easily preventable ones should be averted!

[gasman123]

Random drugs testing would not have stopped this guy, any more than random breath testing stops the hard core drink drivers, who continue to drink drive despite losing their licences etc until they are jailed. Anyone who takes ecstacy then flies doesn't care much for rules.

The incentive to "stay clean" that random testing generates doesn't work in this arena. Professional pilot/ RAF- loss of career (in people who are by their nature career focussed this is obviously major), loss of driving licence - major pain in the ass for most people, loss of PPL - not the end of the world.

Testing in CAA medicals is also fairly pointless -hair will give a marijuana trace for months but nothing else, urine & blood is indetectable for most substances a few days after "indulging", its pretty easy to fudge a medical every few years.

May I also mention - look at the fuss over this because he took ecstacy. Why has no-one mentioned the alcohol associated deaths in this months AAIB bulletin? And last months? :rolleyes: Not news, is it - but kills far more people. Maybe we should have a breathalyser attached to the starter, at least pissed people will then have to prop swing and thereby kill themselves before take off!

[VictorGolf]

"Eight hours from bottle to throttle" is a well-known, if inaccurate, measure of how long it takes for alcohol; to leave the bloodstream but what is the timescale for ectasy? Never done drugs so I've no feel for how long this might be.

[IO540]

There is a long thread on this on flyer.co.uk - apparently this pilot had a long history behaving like a right plonker in the air, so much that various ATCOs reported him to the powers to be.

No action appears to have been taken.

The CAA does do enforcement but they concentrate on obvious cases of illegal public transport, particularly where an AOC holder has complained :)

The list of recent (successful) prosecutions can be found on their website.

The FAA would have busted this pratt ages ago, given that he drew attention to himself so much.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

The FAA would have busted this pratt ages ago, given that he drew attention to himself so much.
They might have taken his licence away, but how would they stop him flying? Confiscate his aircraft and put him on a "do not sell an aircraft to this man" list? - his rumoured behaviour gives no particular cause for anyone to think that he would have stopped flying just because he didn't have a licence.

[IO540]

They might have taken his licence away, but how would they stop him flying?It probably would if he was based at an airfield, because the word would get around (GA gossip travels a lot faster than a C150) that he hasn't got a PPL.

If he was based on a strip then no, but I wonder how many private strips would have somebody like that among them. From what I have seen, most are socially very tight groups which are hard to get into. I think he'd find it easier to get into a gliding club (where most members are married to each other) than into an average private strip scene :)

He would have to own the private site; then it would work.

Same thing really as driving with no driving license, with no roadtax, and avoiding being out near the pub closing time, and not parking on public roads :) It's quite possible if nobody knows you, so when the local rag prints the court case report nobody recognises it.

[M609]

Hair testing as a part of the Class 1/2 medical is an option, and it detects "all" types of drugs months after use.

The test cost about £100.

The Norwegian MOD has started to use it, with good results.

[gasman123]

Thinning badly with a number 2 on top, I can't imagine I would have a record for very long......... my oldest hair has been there for about 2 weeks!

It does seem to test for more things than I thought, but the motivations for these tests need to be examined. Don't confuse genuine safety aspects with social control. It cannot be disputed that the drug associated with the vast majority of accidents is alcohol, if you want to stop this then have compulsory breathalysers in each airport/ strip. Before you fly you must attend for a breath test or risk revocation of your licence. The pilot flying after a heavy night is of far more risk to himself and others that someone who took MDMA 90 days ago. Read this if you need convincing!

Air Accidents Investigation Branch: Piper PA-28R-201T Turbo Cherokee Arrow III, G-JMTT (http://www.aaib.dft.gov.uk/publications/bulletins/june_2008/piper_pa_28r_201t_turbo_cherokee_arrow_iii__g_jmtt.cfm)

Let me add that no, I do not take drugs, no, I am not advocating their use, and no, I do not think they are safe. But, in the piloting community, it is booze that is the problem 99 times out of 100. Crack down on that if anything. 8 hours bottle to throttle is a nonsense when the limit is (rightly) 20mg/dl.

[XL319]

How the hell did he pass at all given that he was grounded whilst revalidating his ppl and then reported by Air Traffic.

Seems to me that this guy was a ticking time bomb!!! Unfortunately he took a poor young lad with him. :(:*

[AMEandPPL]

8 hours bottle to throttle is a nonsense when the limit is (rightly) 20mg/dl

That may be the legal limit, but for me personally, and almost everyone I know and in our flying club, there is only one figure . . . . . ZERO !

The AAIB accident report to which you gave the link above is a timely reminder to all of us of the still complex nature of flying even a simple aircraft, and just how easily that skill can be fatally diluted.

[IO540]

There is nothing one can do about total clowns like this.

One could bring in some kind of comeback against instructors. That would make some of them think twice when they do a checkout. But this bloke might have been sober on the day, and his escapades in the air (which got reported) might have occurred while he was under the influence....

Fortunately this is very rare.

[AMEandPPL]

Hair testing as a part of the Class 1/2 medical is an option. . . . . . . . . . . . .. .The Norwegian MOD has started to use it

Presumably MOD means the same as ours, ie military ! In military settings tests like this can easily be imposed whether the recipients like it or not !

Anyone know of anything like this being accepted willingly and voluntarily by CIVILIAN pilots, anywhere at all ?

[youngskywalker]

The same way that they will force each aircraft to have a mode S transponder, a flight test to keep our licence current every year or two or any of the other rules that EASA is re-inventing. They can make you do anything that they want, just depends how much you want to keep on flying.