Indian Conversion

[air_cowboy]

hi all...
not very certain of the exact statistics but from what i have seen of the results from the April 2007 session exams, maybe only 3-5% of candidates passed both their Indian Conversions papers.
As i myself are going to be taking these papers in the next session it is not exactly cause to worry but definitely have to ask myself as to what could be the reason for this. Wether it is poorly prepared students coming from a place with not the best of foundations in their ground training... or something to do with DGCA's mysterious ways???
If anyone has any views , it would be appreciated ... or if anyone has recently taken these conversion papers , nothing like first hand info.
Thanks!!!

a_c

[sadath83]

These are tricks played by DGCA.There are around 1500 students who enrolled before the new rule of 50 hrs that came in August 2006. So now they want to make sure all students fall under the the 50 hrs of mandatory flying and than take the exams.. they are doing this to reduce the number of students taking the CPL exam.

I have known students who were confident of getting 90+ score, but when the result was announced they had scored around 45.

[Left Wing]

It's amazing the DGCA will promote expensive expat pilots; rather to make sure more local pilots can come into the system ASAP.

Also surprizing is that there are no high quality aviation training schools in India.

[divinesoul]

air_cowboy

Check ur pm.

And i wish the babus at DGCA just rot in hell.

[silent_scream]

The April exams showed dismal results overall . But on an average , around 30 -40 % crack the conversion exams every time (thats since the past 1 year, although i might be wrong).
Apparently , every one says there's something fishy going onn inside DGCA . But in spite of every one knowing it , not much seems to be changing.:ugh:

Cheers !

[air_cowboy]

silent scream....
fishy???....

[silent_scream]

air_cowboy , m sorry for not being clear.

The first reply posted by 'sadath83' , is something that i have heard from a bunch of people and everyone seems quite sure of it also .

And as 'Left Wing' quoted , and i totally agree that they have come up with rules to validate foreign licenses (its not like its a simple process ,but still). And i hear the conversion process is being made difficult day by day . They need a bunch of documents from the country that issued your license just cause they think ur license might b fake .... And if you look at the training within India , its probably the worst one could every see . Am not trying to blame anyone , but its just that things are this way . And nothing is being done to change it.

Cheers !

[sadath83]

What i have heard is that you can pay money and get your license much faster than going through the whole process legally.

[vinayak]

yup.... around 1000$ bribe is a must... but still all documentation required. all the best for the next attempt. i'll see u there :uhoh:

[air_cowboy]

vinayak

check ur pm

[sadath83]

Air_cowboy and Vinayak u can PM me as well :-)

Would like to know the information thats being shared.. if its confidential please include me also.. i would also like to know the information

[airborneforever]

copy info to sadath to me also boyos
the more info the better

[hpcock]

It's rather sad & unfortunate that this thread has been hijacked by a bunch of thick candidates who can't be bothered to try & pass an exam or who know within themselves that they probably can't pass it in the first place.

It is common knowledge that the state of Indian aviation - regulation & licencing side is somewhat in the dumps, & then you guys come along & reinforce it by showing disrespect & ignorance to the system & operating pilots in India.

For some time now, a number of pilots have been expressing annoyance as to why foreign pilots are paid more in India & why they are being offered contracts on a long term basis. The stark reality is that, they don't generally buy their licence, but earn it. There may be a whole heap of Indian candidates waiting in the wings to land that 1st coveted job in aviation, but some of you are making a real mockery of those whose intentions are good & true.

Contrary to your beliefs or views, airlines and most pilots do know which candidates have bull****ted their way through the system. Like all things, it will come back to bite you on the ass, good & hard - and don't expect any sympathy.

You are the sole problem as to why Indian pilots are seen as such degenerates in professional aviation circles. It's a pity, because the majority are good, decent folk just getting along doing their thing in an honest & professional manner.

[sadath83]

Hpcock,
To make things clear no one in this thread wants to pay money and pass exams.. we have just shared what we have seen and hear from other people.

Hope u dont take us wrong that we are involved in passing exams by paying some bribe. We are just sharing the experience

i Agree with u that most of them are good. infact i would say 99.95% are extremely good..

[hpcock]

sadath83

whether or not you're involved is neither none of my business, nor do I care. I have sucessfully completed all my training in aviation at that level, & am happy to ply my trade in the flightdeck.

All I'm saying is that you guys shouldn't encouarge or condone this sort of behaviour whether you heard it, believe it or know about it.

It doesn't finish once you land a job....it only begins, & if you don't cut the mustard or make the grade, then it's adios my dear friend & welcome to a career in flipping burgers.

[air_cowboy]

The intention of this thread was not to disgrace anybody.... but instead to understand better how the system works and the goin on's of it... and i believe that is from where a change can be possible.... cause it involves all our careers and of those to come.....
the indian system is in shambles as we know but i also believe that they are making changes and progress in the system for the first time in decades.... so maybe not myself but pple in higher and more powerful positons if happen to come across all discussed on these forums (not that they are not aware of the problems) sometime someday might actually do something about it....
i myself (hpcock- u would not be interested in this) will definitely not subscribe to the back door route and do not condone it because i too very much intend to join that majority earning their honest and definitely well deserved living.

[silent_scream]

I don't think we meant to encourage any of the practice's mentioned earlier .

Peace !

[flightknight]

:ugh:So what is the answer for us aviation nerds who have worked our way up PT91-PT135-PT121 , by the hour. Is there a honest route to the conversion process. I see that the DGCA website posts a high failure rate for the ALTP conversion exams (shortage of qualified pilots ????).

[Canuck15]

Gentlemen

well i have written the dgca altp conversion a few times now ant the interesting thing is that i have always failed it by 2 or 3 marks ...I am begiining to wonder if someone at dgca is expecting me to show up with a goody bag ......confused.....and i did really study both times ....

comments invited....

[hpcock]

Canuck

You've been round long enough to know that, if you don't bring the goody bag, you ain't getting through.

This was the crux of my original posting on this thread. Due to candidates openly bribing the DGCA, they have accepted this as the norm. It's become the quick dollar stop for them.

For example - A collegue of mine recently went to do his vivor (ATPL), & was told from the outset, that he needed only 6 marks to pass. However, only 5 were going to be given regardless of his performance. BTW his knowledge level is excellent. The interviewer was adamant that 4 lakhs (for those of you not from India - Rs400,000) would be the acceptable figure for him to pass. What sort of regulatory body are we dealing with?

Unfortunately, this has all stemmed from this side of the fence. Opportunist candidates finding unethical officers within the ranks at DGCA to pass a small amount of cash for a little favour. If we as pilots stood up and said no, where might we be with this whole scenario? There are plenty of us who don't need to pay, because we're good enough.

As a foreign pilot in India, I think it sucks & it's also so easy to spot those candidates, even if they do make it to the flightdeck. Infact, only last week 2 prospective recruits were thrown out, after we found out that some of their documents were not exactly kosher. Subsequently, they have had their licences taken away, & ICAO has been informed.

In my opinion, & I know I'm probably a minority on this one - but how about we all report the DGCA to ICAO for its underhand methods. This in turn would rid the system of the roguish behaviour found at the DGCA & would send a clear message to all those who think its ok to buy your way through.

Sorry for the long rant
HPC

[silent_scream]

hpcock ,

This is exactly what i meant when i wrote 'No one is doing anything about it' in my initial post's . Although i guess i wasn't clear enough .
But getting back ; i am curious if there isn't any Airline pilot's association who could represent the complete lot of the hard working folks out there and forward a note to ICAO ? (The association could also talk to DGCA to help make things better). Cause it seems like a rapidly growing market and with buying privileges thing hapenning , i am not sure how far it would go .

Just a thought .
I certainly agree with you and include me in your minority group . :)

Cheers !

[vinayak]

what i said about was conversion. u need to get ur papers done.
there is no short cut sadly [:P]

and the dude who said we are giving indian pilots a bad name and ****... have u really used all that ****ty info in your flying? are u ever bothered about apparent wander in your gyro.. and all that ****! dgca sylabus is absolute bull ****...:ugh:

[divinesoul]

and the dude who said we are giving indian pilots a bad name and ****... have u really used all that ****ty info in your flying? are u ever bothered about apparent wander in your gyro.. and all that ****! dgca sylabus is absolute bull ****...
vinayak
i dont know what ur back ground is but dont blame the DGCA syllabus.there are so any things we learn that we never use later on.But to get that degree/diploma/license we have to learn it.either put up with it or just quit.But then again it all depends on how much u want it badly.This is not limited to pilots but all other professions.
And one more thing when u use the word s**t and the likes please dont be so explicit.It doesnt look nice.
cheers.

[air_cowboy]

hi...
this just gets more interesting.....
vinayak - knowledge is never wasted... dont u just want to know (maybe just for the heck of it) how things are working?? or is a lazy 8 ample...

the rogue candidates and the dgca are both to blame, and as has been said the airlines know who the bad apples are. but it should not have to come to the airlines dealing with. thats what the authorities should be there for.
I was forwarded a letter that was written to the dgca and various ministries in 2002 regarding the corruptions of the exam cell but of course we see no changes. I would subscribe to the idea of gathering some 'cojones' and forwarding info to ICAO cause it is all plain simple WRONG.
is there any pilots assosciation in india?

[Canuck15]

HP

that was well put . I wish more of us can get a lobby together and get a message across to DGCA . I have never in my life failed an exam till I wrote the DGCA ones ...i was horryfied...anyhow ...I am done with this dgca **** and joining as a foriegn FO. I wanna get flying ...I keep hearing that there is gonna be a time when the ICAo will be converted to Indian ...but lets wait and see


Regards

[divdby0]

Dgca exams...well well. It is an interesting experience. The reason for so many failures? The answer is quite simple : No proper syllabus. Atleast that was the case till last year when I did my conversion exams. Now they have a section in the dgca website, but its still useless in my opinion.

To all the guys doing their conversion papers: my only suggestion would be to study Ground studies for pilots (all volumes). You should pretty much read it cover to cover 5 times and the exam will be a cake walk. First time around, for my composite, I was misinformed and read up on Duggal's nav and met notes alone(Duggal is one of the big shot ground school instructor in India...I didnt attend his classes but just studied his notes). Flunked it, but again by 3%...happens all the time with DGCA exams:hmm: . Air regs was pretty easy though, duggal's the man for airlaw:ok:

Second time around, it was Ground studies for pilots(GSP) for me. I would say the composite paper is 35% nav 35 % Radio aids and the remaining 30% for met, flight planning and instruments. CLeared the paper quite easily, and got 87%. Even though it is hard preparing out of GSP, and more so if you are working(I was working as a flight instructor and those months preparing for the exam was hell), you should clear the composite paper easily. Air regs, as mentioned earlier is easy to clear with Duggal notes.

But the problems dont end there, for once I quit my job and got back to India, I had to run around for converting my RT, and honestly, Sanchar Bhavan is a :mad: up place. Apart from that getting a date for my class 1 medical was a big headache. And finally I have been waiting close to 2 months now to get my flight tests done. Initially my Instrument time lapsed(luckily, the flying club where I went to had a sim and it was not a big issue) and now my night time will lapse if I dont submit my form by the 20th of July, which gives me about 48 hours to do the flight test and submit my application on time.

So gentlemen, its not the DGCA alone, its the whole system. Flying schools, Sanchar Bhavan, class 1 med centres.

I have started chain smoking :\

CHeers

Divdby0

[Canuck15]

Hey Div

I have done that entire route and run into a brick wall. thank god that i am of indian origin and a citizen from canada...so my friend i have given up on the idea of getting the indian licence and will just fly on my canadian as an FO ....I hope that there are no glitches in this process....


regards

[Always Moving]

HPcock
How do you inform ICAO of such a things?
Do they do anything about it?

[divdby0]

As requested by cowboy, below is the breakup on the composite paper.

1. Navigation :

a. every composite paper starts off with two numericals : one on cp and the other on pnr. The two types of qns I have come across are multiple leg cp/pnr's and cp/pnr with variable winds. Multiple leg examples can be found in GSP flight planning volumes chp 1 under PEF(point of equal fuel) and PSR(point of safe return). Variable wind examples can be found in GSP navigation. Both these questions carry 4 marks each, so thats a good 8% of the 70% pass mark required.

b. Questions on Great circle/Rhumb line tracks from A to B and B to A. Its better to work out all the questions in the GSP exercise section for this one. Different examples are Distance between two lats given, which can be used to find onvergency and hence GC r/l tracks, same latitude questions which is slightly different from the way you approach the solution for diff lats. usually between qns 10-18 and carries 2 marks.

c. One qn. on LMT to GMT conversion and vice versa. Carries 2 marks. (GSP nav)

d. couple of qns on air and ground distance with either 2/1 mark. (GSP nav)

e. One question on aircraft magnetism, usually finding deviation based on a b c coordinates 3 marks (Aircraft magnetism GSP Nav)

f. Finding scale at equator or a particular latitude for mercator projection 2 marks (GSP nav)

g. one mark questions based on all the above + solar system, International date liney, Calculation QUJ with the correction factor, altitudes, one in 60 rule, solstices, diff types of projection etc. (GSP nav)

Solar system is usually a neglected area during preparation and it can prove costly.

2. Radio Aids :

a. Radio theory
b. NDB
c.VOR
d. Doppler VOR
e. VDF
f. ILS - 3 mark qn both the times on calculation dist from the runway based on deviation in the loc and glideslope
g. Radar theory
h. DME
i. Radio altimeter
j. SSR
k. TCAS (imp)
l. GPWS - make sure you memorise different modes
Enhanced GPWS
m. GPS/GNSS
n. Airborne weather Radar
o. MLS

DGCA loves questions based on Range and accuracy. So make sure you know it for all of the above. Apart from that, going through the working in detail would help. I remember getting a question on 50 ft reference in the ILS. GSP radio aids is good enough.

3. Met: Study the general chapters regarding met in GSP met, meaning, you can leave out UK weather. Indian climatology should be studied seperately. Duggal notes work for that.

4. Instruments:

a. Altimeter, ASI, VSI with their working and errors.
b. Gyros - types (Space, tied, earth and rate - got 1 questions bot the times), Real wander, apparent wander(includes numericals as well which will carry 3 marks or 1 mark qn), Directional gyro with error and limitation, Artificial horizon and their errors(acceleraton error- pendulus vanes and units, Turning error - Erection error:rolleyes: and pendulocity error)

5. Flight planning : One 3 mark qn on MTOW(sure thing), multiple leg cp/pnr's (4 marks)

All the above is based on what I'd personally seen. I wouldnt really recommend using it as a syllabus guide, but apart from your preparation, make sure you have gone through the topics mentioned above.

Canuck,

I did most of my training in Canada. I know how good it is over there...hassle free.

Always moving,

Let ICAO listen to this :

I started my training in India years back, flew around 20 hrs and then quit. Reason : my flight time being "logged" in an other person's name. And it was very heartening to know of late that the same person who had my hours logged as his is an F/O in Kingfisher flying 320's.

Does integrity really exist?:confused:

Best Regards,

Divide by zero

[hpcock]

How do you inform ICAO of such a things?
ICAO, External Relations and Public Information Office (EPO)
999 University Street, Montréal, Quebec H3C 5H7, Canada
Tel.: +1 514-954-8219
Fax: +1 514-954-6077
SITATEX: YULCAYA
Internet e-mail: [email protected] ([email protected]) Internet ICAO home page: http://www.icao.int (http://www.icao.int) Do they do anything about it?

I hope so - it would be a nice start.

[silent_scream]

'Divide by 0' , that must have taken years to write .... it certainly is some great Info for the Conversion exams . Thanks . :)

'hpcock' , thanks for the info .
but my question still remains for all folks flying in India , Isnt there any Pilots Association who could take an Initiative for making things better ?

'Canuck15' , Don't mean to Intervene your personal matters, but just out of curiosity , why didn't u choose to continue flying in Canada ? (Might not be the right place to ask . My Apology).

Peace !

[mobie]

I may have a chance to fly a corp aircraft in India, it will be based there although not VT reg. Will I have to jump the hoops and get the Indian ATPL? I am very high time(20,000 hrs.)and US FAA typed. Is there a chance that they would wave some of the test?

Thanks in advance. I have checked the DGCA web site and can not find what I need.

Mobie