RAF Fitness Test - Soon to be twice a year!

[rudekid]

Excellent news!:hmm: Allegedly from Oct 07, maybe some muscle-mechs can comment?

I'm all in favour of us being a fit fighting force, but we really don't need any extra admin burdens like this.

Not only do I have to CCS, IRT, PME, FMT600, Airfield Driving, Compulsory PT, Live fire, WHT but I've now got a second fitness test to do!

Now, I appreciate it's only half an hour down the gym, but in reality it's a whole sight more hassle than that. Especially given the three months (plus) a year in the sandpit and numerous other nights/days/weeks away during the year, it's just an extra pain in the arse...It's just another period of time when I can't be doing my primary or secondary duty, or when I need to be in work when I could be stood down following weekend tasking or an OOA. It's also another period of time that I have to programme the lads to be away from their primary/secondary duties, because you can bet your bottom dollar that they'll be on the CO's s**t list if they're not in date.

Bet you that the PTIs won't be in at weekends, or late nights to support our 24 hour ops (and no, I'm not moaning about PTI's as a group)

Now, given that our PTI cadre is being reduced and the fact that between them and SHQ noone can record the successful (or not) completion of the current RAFFT, this strikes me as another admin burden for the already busy Sqn to take on and another ill thought through retention-negative policy.

Given that last year, due to a randomly generated policy, I managed to do 3 fitness tests in a 4 month period and still be recorded as out of date on the system, will this mean I will need to do six next year in order to be recognised as fit? Our stn has an on arrival, as a Sqn and on Birthday policy, so frankly we might as well just do it every other week! Luckily, we'll be able to use our locally trained Sqn PT man, but wait: He can't do directed PT! Simply brilliant...

Anyone else spot a last minute attempt at branch justification by AMP?

Anyway, it's been a long day...:{

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Cue the inevitable " Dry your eyes Princess and man up" from our brown colleagues who are oh so much fitter than us :rolleyes:

[camelspyyder]

I like your OCT 07 deadline.

At ISK everyone does it before they deploy so we're on 2 or 3 or 4 times a year already, and have been since 2001. Ha! Ha!

[serf]

Dry your eyes princess and man up :)

[rudekid]

Surprised it took that long!;)

[PlasticCabDriver]

At our secret Oxonian aerodrome, it is being tacked on at the end of CCS.

[Stuff]

rudekid: My source says something quite different to yours. The exact opposite in fact. I will go and recheck my understanding tomorrow.

With regard to PTIs working weekends, in my experience most of them are working most weekends - the ATI versions at least.

[rudekid]

PCD
That would make some sense. Will make some enquiries and see what can be arranged. Hopefully, the new RAFFT won't be linked to a specific period (birth, joining etc) so you can actually just be 'in date'. Otherwise, we'll be doing CCS eight times a year as well!
Ideally, I'd like a sanctuary period so that, like our Army colleagues we could do all our admin requirements together as a formed unit, once a year. However along with the rest of the non F3 RAF(:E), we've been on continuous Ops since 2001!

Manning up...Pants still moist.

Stuff

Will re-check mine as well- wouldn't be wanting to spread unsubstantiated rumours.

Not slagging the PTIs, we've got a great set where I'm based, they're dealt as many crummy cards as the rest of us. Our guys, would I'm sure, work whenever we asked them to. What I'm frustrated by is the extra admin required at home base, when we're continually being asked to spend more and more time away from home base year on year. It's a bit like the directed PT irritation. We should all be fit for ops, but we will soon have the increased irritation of a requirement to visit the gym three times a week. It's just extra admin head ache. Fit people will still be fit, fatties will still weasel out of it any way they can. It's just extra admin and hassle for all, especially the fit guys.

Had a conversation with our PTIs a few weeks ago about this. I like to train evenings, run at the weekends and manage to occasionally play a representative sport for the RAF (increasingly on leave, not duty days!) How does this count against my mandated requirements. Sure, a swept up gym, or online system would enable me to enter my trg sessions and count them against my mandated PT. But typically, the RAF, depsite the majority of the teeth and support arms being heavily engaged on Ops rushes in a admin heavy policy without the correct infrastructure in place. Where does the admin burden fall? Not on PSF, not on 9-5 guys who can organise their daily rosters, but on the already over stretched and hectic front line units.

It's just another example of poorly executed and hurriedly introduced policy, of which we seem to have hundreds!

I need to relax...:{I'm sure there's more important things for me to worry about.

[Sinjmajeep]

Plastic if they are tacking it on to the end of CCS does that mean you lucky chaps will get to do that twice a year. It is done during the force protection week at another base. It is not being implemented until Apr 2008 with the increases in the muscle fitness requirements. BMI checks are also being carried out but only as a data collection exercise.

[VigilantPilot]

Another waste of time. :mad:

I have collected over twice the number of fitness tests than I have had years in the service. The most irritating time was when I did a fitness test at a new station at the end of March only to be told that it would be out of date in two days because the new year rolled over in April. I then went on CCS the next week to be told that I had to re-do it again because they now tied the fitness tests with CCS. What a mess!

I'm hoping that when I fill the blue card with stamps, I can trade it in for something Green Shield style.

Don't get me started on IDT...including the one hour lesson with a lesson objective on how to fill a sandbag...:ugh:

[vecvechookattack]

This is purely poor management on behalf of the senior RAF managers. Without getting into a slanging match between forces in the RN the AFT is based around your report date. My OJAR gets written on 31 May and on 31 May I have to be in date for my AFT. You only need to do 1 a year (the clue is in the title). You can do it at any time of the year. For instance. If I did my AFT on 1 june 2007 then I'm not required to do another one until 31 May 2009.

You don't need to be in the UK to do your AFT, you can do it anywhere you are currently based. If there are no PT staff in or around your particular hole in the sand then thats not your fault. The RN manage to condy=uct the AFT when deployed.... how do submariners do it? (with bubbles)

[rudekid]

VVHA

According to the stuff I have seen today, we are being mandated to undertake the RAFFT twice a year.

Note: It's not called an AFT, it's a RAFFT hence no annuality and no RN!

Policy seems to be the issue in this case, though I'll grant you the management leaves something to be desired on occasion.

Still, ever willing to engage in some off-topic inter-service slanging matches if you fancy!;)

[AC Ovee]

If I'm ordered to the gym during my working hours to take a test (even for the 2nd or 3rd time in a month) then thats what I will do. I'm paid to do what I'm told. For the wages I get, it can't be bad. If it transpires that I'm being mis-managed or badly led, well, who gives a to$$? Its their loss, not mine.

I get so pi$$ed off with people in the RAF complaining that they are wasting their time doing what they are told to do. The fact is that they are not wasting their own time, they are wasting the RAF's time. Just get on with it, guys.

[flaps 15 3 green]

good your all fat bastards... :}:}:}

[Melchett01]

Can getting and staying fit be really such a bad thing? If nothing else, doing a collective impression of the fat wheezy boys with a note from Matron sitting it out on the sidelines only gives more ammo to our Army chums.

And anyway, having seen the LM from the AFBSC on the matter, if you really feel that strongly about it, it can be counted as one of your 3 so-called recommended / compulsory periods of phys each week. However, if instead of doing a fitness test you were told to go and play football/rugby/sport of choice for an hour, I would put money on the door being off its hinges in the stampede to get out and onto the pitch (and before you say anything, I'm in SH, so no I don't spend all my time doing sports afternoons!). So why should a bit of a jog up and down the gym be a huge problem. If it is, get a girlie to go with you - makes doing sit ups much more enjoyable ;)

If nothing else it should be a matter of personal pride. But if you want to spend the rest of your life trying to remember when you last saw your feet, please be my guest.

[Mr Point]

AC Ovee: I get so pi$$ed off with people in the RAF complaining that they are wasting their time doing what they are told to do. The fact is that they are not wasting their own time, they are wasting the RAF's time.

Fine if you work Monday to Friday, 9 to 5, but if you work shifts it's another matter - then it's an individual's time that's being taken up during a day's stand down.

Unless, of course, there's an option to carry out the RAFFT on a weekend, or at 2am during the week - now that's what I call equal opportunities! :}

[threepointonefour]

Kate Nash:
You said I must eat so many lemons 'cause i am so bitter.
I said, "I'd rather be with your friends mate 'cause they are much fitter.

.................?!

[vecvechookattack]

Fine if you work Monday to Friday, 9 to 5


When has anyone in the Armed Forces worked Monday to Friday, 9 to 5....?

[Two's in]

Dear ACM Torpy,
Please excuse Brian from the war today as he has a bad cough and an inconvenient shift pattern, and is therefore unable to be fit twice a year.

Regards,

Brian's Mum

PS. He will need to leave early today so he can meet me after school to buy some warm vests.

[Blacksheep]

The primary question on fitness is fit for what? Fit for operational duty? Aren't you all doing that already?

Perhaps 'Their Airships' plan to enter you in a mass trot past at next year's London Marathon. :hmm:

[rudekid]

Melchett

Like your namesake, you miss the point. This isn't about the fitness. It's about extra admin and trivia. Re-read the thread.

[Brian Abraham]

Comforting to see you have my welfare at heart Two's in but I don't wear vests (singlets we call em here). Never had a cough either, but the inconvenient shift pattern I could own up to in a previous life. :ok:;)

[serf]

You dont have that much admin trivia to deal with. What with this and thread on wearing civvies on Ops, maybe some people are being naughty and pretending to be in the RAF because I cant believe anyone in the RAF could moan so much.....................could they?

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

Can getting and staying fit be really such a bad thing?


No, of course not - but a second fitness test a year won't achieve this. As someone said earlier, the fit people will be able to pass it anyway, and the cholesterol brigade will now simply skip two tests a year instead of one, knowing full well that the RAF lacks the balls to actually punish them for it (leave cancellation? promotion bar?).

And Serf, the reason people are whining about this is not that this, on its own, is a major inconvenience - it's just the latest in a long line of badly-thought-out and (more to the point) futile directives which combine to lower the quality of servicemen's lives while not making the service any better.

[Whossat Forrus]

It's all part of Robber Browns plan to have you looking the part when you are compelled to participate in the Gay Pride March.
"PARADE WILL MINCE PAST IN COLUMN OF ROUTE, FORWARD MARCH"

[Wader2]

The previous thread was here http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=269097&page=11&highlight=fitness+test

This concerned the plan for 3 physical periods per week.

In that thread to issue was not whether one should be fit but how it was to be administered and where the slack would come from in the programme>

It was all very well saying do it in your own time but many wives see hubbies non-working time as their value time. They would see mandatory, out-of-working hours exercise as an infringement on their already limited face time with the hubby (or other half).

[Wader2]

the fit people will be able to pass it anyway, and the cholesterol brigade will now simply skip two tests a year instead of one, knowing full well that the RAF lacks the balls to actually punish them for it (leave cancellation? promotion bar?).

Absolutely true. Many years ago in the kipper fleet it was 4 times per year. Racing snakes would just do the run no worries. The knockers would just do the walk and fail and no worries. There was no way you could sanction half a sqn or half 3 sqns in one wing.

Same as 'get yer haircut'. Any discipline in today's forces requires mutual compliance by the majority. If a sqn chose not to comply they would charge the whole sqn? No way.

[rudekid]

Serf
I'd be interested to know what your acceptable level of trivia is and equally how you're able to comment on how much me and the rest of my sqn have got to deal with.

About six months ago, I heard CAS give a brief in which he encouraged us all to look to streamline process and identify any areas where we could streamline bureaucracy. The implication, from his own words, was that we would have his full support in attempts to change policy or process to achieve these aims.

Extra fitness tests won't make us more fit. Extra tests won't make us more deployable. Extra tests won't make our contribution to HERRICK/TELIC any more useful. All it does is increase the burden when we're at home unit. If you think that this is acceptable, then I suspect you're on a non-deployable unit and don't see the problems that ill-designed policy inflicts.

Incidentally, I count that I have 40 administrative and professional currencies with various periodicity, mostly annual. I'm sure other units have a whole lot more. When we're on Ops for the periods we are now, why-oh-why do we need any more hoops to jump through.

To all those saying "Just do what you're told" then again, you've missed the point. My CO gives me orders, I follow them, even if that's an order to do three fitness tests a year.:} That doesn't mean I can't question a POLICY direction from further up the chain.

Fully supportive of keeping us all fit and active, but don't support more rubbish initiatives.

[Report Line]

Guys, Guys,

Just get on with it. A break from the office should be just the ticket:zzz:. If you don't go - what are they going to do - shave your head and send you to war? Hmmm.

As has been posted before - doesn't matter how many times you get tested it's the standard set for the test - which by the way is far too low.

Do you remember all those course citiques you filled in? 'Great course but we needed earlier starts and more PT'


RL

[Gnd]

You really shouldn't worry, just skive and if they really want to throw you out, let them. I bet they won't say anything, never do now days!!!:ooh:

[serf]

A fitness test twice a year is no burden at all.

[Melchett01]

Melchett

Like your namesake, you miss the point. This isn't about the fitness. It's about extra admin and trivia. Re-read the thread.

No, I really don't think I missed the point at all, I just can't see how an extra 30 minutes a year in the gym is going to make the wheel fall off. Sorry to say this, but neither you nor I is so important that the world will come to a crashing halt if we aren't in work for half an hour whilst we go and do this.

If you really are so busy with duties that you really can't afford the extra half hour to get to the gym then maybe you should think again about the early Friday stack that everyone seems to take these days. And like I said, if it were AT or some other jolly they were trying to enforce, I don't think you would see to many people being too busy to do it then.

As for the extra admin - only if you're a PTI - all the rest of us have to do is turn up and beat the 20-somethings - hardly a difficult task. On both counts :E

[rudekid]

Melchett

I would concur completely. However...

We both know that in the ten (?) years of its existence, the gym and SHQ have never been fully able to communicate between themselves as to whether you have completed the test or not, leading to the multitude of phone calls, emails and general time wasting that happens when the inevitably incorrect COs s**t-list is published.

Given that most gyms run about two sessions a week for the RAFFT and that they can hardly cope now with the numbers of failures/remedials/enforced PT/Sqn PT/RI duties, I really don't think it'll be a case of just pitch up anytime for a test.

30 mins down the gym would, as you correctly state, be a piece of cake. I just don't think it'll be that easy and I don't see what benefits it gives. As I mentioned earlier, there'll be more ways to avoid it than roundabouts in Swindon, but my (and 99% of the rests) personal pride won't allow us to appear on that s**t list. So we'll be stuck with the extra admin, programmers will inevitably lose some flexibility and the whole system doesn't get improved one iota.

I repeat; it's not about fitness, it's about unneccessary admin.

I stand by to eat my Trilby should it be an unqualified success.

[AC Ovee]

If I thought that questioning policy would change anything I would have a different view of many things. I believe that most of these RAF wide policies have been drafted, discussed and endorsed by the airships, incl the Air force Board and there cannot be any reversals due to complaint alone. However, questioning a dodgy directive spawned by your boss on the squadron is definitely worthwhile and might have some effect, otherwise lets just do what we are told.

[wokkameister]

Not a problem in JHC.

We get enough exercise jumping through hoops, bending over backwards and chasing targets.
Besides, not really in the UK enough to do the AFT more than once a month.

WM

[Mr Point]

Rudekid: If you really are so busy with duties that you really can't afford the extra half hour to get to the gym then maybe you should think again about the early Friday stack that everyone seems to take these days.

....unless you work a 25 hour duty shift on 15 minutes readiness to lift like......erm......oh yes, the SAR Force.

[soprano54]

RK stop blubbing :{ IMHO you should do the tests at least once a week, you might just break out in a sweat then!!! ;)

[Big Bear]

Perhaps a simple maths lesson is in order for their Airships.

Working on a session of PT leading to about 1.5 hrs away from the desk, 3 times a week equals 4.5 hrs in total.

Now just for arguments sake let us say the working week is 40 hrs (I know this varies greatly but I'm trying to keep it simple).

That means that we are required to be away from our primary roles for 11.25% of the time. Therefore we should see a corresponding 11.25% increase in the trained strength of the RAF - simple really.

Perhaps if this simple rule was applied every time those who are supposed to run things think of new and interesting ways to keep us from our jobs (extra AFTs, JPA claims, Force Development added on to CCS, etc...) then we wouldn't be so overstretched. In fact we would probably be back at our pre 'Options for Change' manpower levels.:E

Seems like common sense to me.

Bear

[Pontius Navigator]

I repeat; it's not about fitness, it's about unneccessary admin.

Indeed it probably is.

Over a year ago a SNCO had a sore arm and could not do the pressups so he didn't do the fitness test. Not only did he not do the test he didn't tell anyone. PRAT.

But . . .

The PEd wrote to OC AW (1). OC AW gives list the staish (2). Staish writes to SNCO (3) and is told by PSF that his threat is illegal (4). I write to OC AW to say idiot is on leave and will be seen to (5). OC AW writes to me and says do it (6). I do it. Man says he is sick so is sent to the Doc. (n). 15 months later he is still unfit, has still not done the FT but at least the paper tiger is now asleep.

Let the sqn cdr be rsponsible for the total fitness of his men. Let the sqn cdr take the flak if he doesn't get his men fit. An the fitness test? If the sqn can do its job.

That is any sqn not just a badged sqn. If SFUFF is sent OOA and unable to fill sand bags or whatever then he should be immediately RTU and that unit provide a LFF in his place. The subsequent sh1t would be highly directional.

L=lean
S=short
F1=fat
F2=fit
u=unfit
F=:mad:

[A2QFI]

Perhaps some troublemaker should put in a FOI request for the fitness test records of the airships and where IS the gymnasium in Main Building - I think we should be told.

[Wrathmonk]

A2QFI

In the basement. Run by Alpha Healthclub (http://www.alphahealthclub.co.uk). Fitness tests conducted either locally (Admiralty Bdg?) or at Uxbridge.

[BEagle]

Good grief your Air Farce sounds a right barrel of laughs these days.....:rolleyes:

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

No, I really don't think I missed the point at all, I just can't see how an extra 30 minutes a year in the gym is going to make the wheel fall off. Sorry to say this, but neither you nor I is so important that the world will come to a crashing halt if we aren't in work for half an hour whilst we go and do this.

If you really are so busy with duties that you really can't afford the extra half hour to get to the gym then maybe you should think again about the early Friday stack that everyone seems to take these days.


Melchett,

Sorry but your point is wide of the mark. Some people could easily afford half an hour out of the office - generally the kind of people who work Mon-Fri and have all their weekends and Christmases free (no offence to you people, I'm just jealous!).

Many other people, who work shifts, can't escape during the working day to do things like the fitness test. So they have to come in on their stand-down days to do it, instead of resting/seeing the family/enjoying their down time. As you must be aware, many people in the RAF commute great distances between home and work - so now these people may have to lose a whole day of time at home because, instead of heading home straight after their run of shifts, they have to stick around till the next day to do (another) fitness test. Depending on the shift cycle they work and which days of the week the RAFFT is offered by PEd Flt, they might not even be able to make it home at all.

Do I claim to speak for everyone? No, not at all. But there will be some people who will be significantly inconvenienced by another fitness test, which is all the more galling when we all agree that the introduction of an extra fitness test will make absolutely no difference to individual or collective fitness.

[toddbabe]

You can spout on about it being an admin burden all you like but that is just a cover up! those that whinge about doing fitness testing are the lardy's that hate sport and are more likely to fail it anyway! get a life and get fit or ship out, there is no place for fatty's in any armed service.
The bollox about shift workers not being able to get to the gym and having to come in on standdown days is rubbish, the gym will still be running tests the week later when said shift worker will be on days! the gym runs tests every week of the year, just the same as changing a med appointment is easy, changing a fitness test date is easy. Everyone manages to make it to the med centre a couple of times a year without any fuss, how on earth does that not grind the system to halt?
Some clever folk could arrange that their sections or crews do it all together to lessen the impact of doing it in dribs and drabs, and imagine if once you are all there together after the test you managed to play a bit of five a side or volleyball! wow that is clever thinking, never catch on with the fatty's though.

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

Aargh!


there is no place for fatty's (sic) in any armed service


Yes! But how is an extra fitness test going to get rid of this problem?


The bollox about shift workers not being able to get to the gym and having to come in on standdown days is rubbish


Actually it's not - more than half the people at the stn I work at are shift workers, and we do have to come in on stand-down for Med, Dental, CCS, RAFFT etc etc.


the week later when said shift worker will be on days


You pillock - I'm talking about the many people who can't get away while they're on shift - day or night!:ugh:


Some clever folk could arrange that their sections or crews do it all together


That's a good idea isn't it - I look forward to the day when the entire Stn Guard Force down tools, abandon the gate, and head off for a couple of hours to do the RAFFT and then some volleyball. Good thing there's no terrorist threat these days...And how about the whole of ATC march smartly out of the tower for a couple of hours? That would work well. SAR crews? Fighter Controllers? ("sorry Mr Prime Minister, we didn't know about the rogue airliners because the bunker was empty"). Need I go on?


after the test you managed to play a bit of five a side or volleyball! wow that is clever thinking, never catch on with the fatty's (sic) though.


It wouldn't catch on with the fit people either, because playing sport with the cholesterol brigade is like shooting fish in a barrel! Besides, when did volleyball ever turn a fat person into a fit one?

[rudekid]

Toddbabe
Thanks for that well informed and thoughtful post, clearly you have great insight into all things military. I appreciate how busy and important you must be, as clearly you haven't got time to read the full thread, but thanks for chipping in anyway.

Changing med appointments easy? I can't get an appointment in the same week here, even if I change it on a monday. Try booking a PME? End of the month Sir.

We could do the RAFFT all together on one day, now wouldn't that be a good idea? But hang on.... There's 25% of the Sqn in the ME (that's the Middle East) where we've been since 2001 (WITHOUT A BREAK), 2 guys on guard, two away at sim, 8 away on other tasking. It's okay though, because we can easily cancel all these things just to get our fitness test done.

We don't work shifts mate, just 24 hours, 365 days a year. Now, if you'd worked & been away all weekend (as 45% of the Sqn is doing this w/e) you may be granted a couple of days off next week. Feel like popping in for a fitness test from your home on one of those days?

This is the reality of life amongst the deployed and deployable bits of the RAF, whether its FJ, SH, ME, Movs, TSW or anyone else.

If you don't understand this dynamic, then you're clearly not very bright.

Now I'm complaining about fitness testing, but I run marathons, play rep sport and am down the gym pretty much every day (although in my own time as I'm too busy during a 'on-sqn' day) Kind of ruins your theory. :ugh:

[TheInquisitor]

there is no place for fatty's (sic) in any armed service

I am fat. I smoke 20 B&H a day. I do just enough exercise to keep me fit enough to perform my primary duty.

I've also done 4 OOAs already this year, including one at VERY short notice. Why? Because the jockstrapping tw@t who was meant to do it 'had to' go off and play rugby somewhere for the RAF.

Who is more useful to a Sqn - a fat bloke who is willing to work his bolox off, or a serial det-dodging jockstrapper who's always too busy playing sport to actually do his job?

Discuss.

[dallas]

If the fitness test is to become twice yearly, it will achieve two things. Firstly it will provide yet another distraction from our core task, which I always understood to be flying and the support of flying. Secondly it will confirm that those in big offices, far removed from the real air force where aircraft cry out for engineers, have forgotten what we are actually here to do. While fundamental issues go unresolved they are choosing to distract themselves with things like half-hearted fitness policies that will ultimately do more to remind people of the fcuk around factor than they will ever impact on personal fitness.

As an example, you're just as likely to see a K line engineer at work during a weekend as a PTI. How dare they tell me it's warfighter first when our core product sits around waiting for repair. :*

[wokkameister]

Agree with many of the points here, apart from ToddBabe who is obviously a cock of the highest order.
Don't mind doing a fitness test, have never failed, but two is just a distraction. If it is a test, why am I at risk of deteriorating over a 6 month period? I never used to be?
Job assurance for Ped branch?

WM

[Biggus]

The people who always pass will still pass, the people who fail will still fail.

I believe this has probably come from the top, or pretty near it. No doubt it allows the senior RAF hierarchy to tell the Army we are taking fitness more seriously - and as a 'change' it sends a message that fitness is now more of an issue.









By the way - if anyone is interested (which I very much doubt) I am not particularly for or against it, I will just carry on passing, I merely offer the above as an observation as to why the change has probably occurred!

[Wyler]

A 'Test' is done after a period of training. It is a Performance Standard check.

Training is a period of instruction by a suitably qualified person or persons.

I am not aware of any formal fitness training being carried out, by PTI's, at RAF units as part of the working cycle.

Therefore, the test is invalid because the training is non existent.

That makes it an administrative procedure only. Next time you are due to take the RAFFT, just send an e-mail saying you are fit.

If that is not accepted then we should shut Cranwell forthwith and tell all prospective Officers to learn how to be an officer in their own time. They can then report to their nearest RAF unit and sit an 'Officer Test'. If successful, collect your uniform and off you go. This could spread to flying training, ATC etc etc. We will save millions.

In short, if you want to test people, then train them. That means it becomes part of the working day. If there is no time then it is obviously not that important after all and should be ignored.

[toddbabe]

Wocca cock and the rest you can eat me, I never tire of you losers always whingeing about having to do some phys or other! it's a fact of life in the services that we should be physically fit and in the past we have only paid lip service to training and testing, if the powers that be deem it right and so that we should be fitter and Quite rightly so then the Pti's and medics have to have some way of testing that the efforts going into the fitness are paying off.
Don't try and tell me that I don't know what a hard working front line section is like, I have spent the last 18 years on them! and if you think that the only time shift workers are able to get to the gym or med centre is during off time then you are speaking bollox utter bollox and you know it!!! if your boss won't let you go in work time to the med center for a duty appointment then tell the SMO that you can't come and get your boss to explain why! so many people believe that they aren't allowed cos thay are SO busy that they don't bother asking! well fecking don't ask just tell. and before you all say well I am only an SAC how can I tell my boss? grow up you have rights, you are allowed to the med center for a duty appointment end of story and if it is compulsary to gym or testing then do that in works time or not at all and see what they say, unless you highlight the problem to the bosses then they will just allow you to be stiffed .
Torque since when has guard force been a work section you monkey? good analogy that one!
You might not get another appointment at med center for weeks but it is easily changed, the gym will always have space on next weeks fitness testing no need to wait months I could get one this afternoon if I wanted.
I don't change my stance one bit, and have worked on many more sections than most of you (guaranteed) and have yet found it difficult to get to the gym in one way or other during the working week.
It's called being lazy and looking for an excuse.
Hard work my arse, haven't got time bull****! make time stop talking ****e and get fit or **** off.

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Blondebabe,

I pointed out in another thread that you would argue with your own shadow and it's nice to see you contribute to this thread in the manner that most have come to expect.

"and have worked on many more sections than most of you (guaranteed)"

Ever paused for breath and wondered just why you have been posted sooooo many times in your short service to date...........................if your literary skills are a direct read across of your inter personal skills then I am sure most line managers would want you out of their door PDQ to restore harmony :rolleyes:

[TheInquisitor]

Careful there, toddprick, all that steroid misuse down the gym seems to have got to you........:}

[LFFC]

TheInquisitor,

I'm told that there is evidence to suggest that people like you do, in fact, perform better in theatre than "racing snakes" at RAF type jobs.

The trouble is that the Army judges everyone by their own values and our wheels seem to want us to compete.

[formertonkaplum]

Your command of written grammer is laughable. I shall therefore write in your style, so as you understand and do not become bemused......

What Tripe you Splurge from your Blinkered stance. I have no doubt your the kind of 'well playing for the Station is Duty' Wan*er that the rest of us continuously have to cover for as there is no manpower scaling for your participation in 'Recognised Sport'.

You Preach and judge people who you have no idea about. Your stand is that we are military and therefore we must need to be fitter, fitter, fitter. Well, 20 years ago with the Cold War threat I didn't need to be Fitter, Fitter, Fitter? Explain that (or look Cold War up on Google......).

Oh...and where in serving the Military, as thats what we are here to do, (as you remind us so often from behind your blinkers), does playing Station Sport fit into Military Service, by your deffinition?

This will be my Only post.... I have lots of work to do now and I've eaten my Lunch. I don't post at home, that time is precious to those of us with LIVES outside of Uniform. I wonder how many more times you will post? More time avoiding work or is the Gym too busy for your Ego / Arrogance?

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

if you think that the only time shift workers are able to get to the gym or med centre is during off time then you are speaking bollox utter bollox and you know it!!!


No sir it is you who speaks b*ll*cks. I am a shift worker, and I cannot be excused work for routine appointments. All my colleagues are the same, and the majority of people on the stn, in other sections, also work shifts and also need to fit in their personal admin in their own time.

Torque since when has guard force been a work section you monkey? good analogy that one!


The Guard Force on my stn is a formed unit of military personnel, who are subject to the RAFFT. Wind your neck in you ignorant t**t!

You don't even try to take issue with my point about ATC or other sections all downing tools at once - do you concede defeat on that one? (fat chance)

How you can pretend to know the working patterns and commitments of everyone in every trade in the RAF? The sane ones amongst us put things like Do I claim to speak for everyone? No, not at all. But there will be some people... in our posts.


have worked on many more sections than most of you (guaranteed)


Ever wondered why you only last such a short time in each place?

[wokkameister]

Cockbabe,

I see from your profile you are at Elgin, so much for the last 18 years on the front line, thought I hadn't seen a self-obsessed penis on the run into Sangin.
I have nothing against fitness. Represented the county quite a few times as a youngster, and have never failed a fitness test.
But a fitness test has little to do with fitness. It is purely a performance indicator for the powers that be. That is the point we are trying to make, however, as you have done 18 years on the front-line and are still an SAC, I can understand that being a difficult concept.

WM

[vecvechookattack]

Strange that there are no Pongo's or Matelots on here moaning about the fitness test....just seems to be Flt Lt Blobby. I expect to soon see a thread entitled " They are now making us wear a uniform to work"

[Sinjmajeep]

I didn't know that the Army or Navy had to do the RAFT.:confused:

[vecvechookattack]

Thankfully, all servicemen have to do the AFT. Its generally considered good form for the Armed Forces to be fighting fit, just incase they may need to fight someone.

[rudekid]

VVHA

Continued fishing eh? Good job all those Navy boys and girls are so fit. They might have to chase after the big nasty mean man who nicked their iPod.:{:{:{:{:{

Can't see many people complaining about the requirements to stay fit, just the extra bollocks of an additional test.

[vecvechookattack]

But thats the point fatboy......what burden....what paperwork.....what extra.....

The AFT should take no more than 30 mins of your day....

[rudekid]

VVHA

Can you office-bound-desk-johnnies NOT READ?

[ZH875]

The AFT should take no more than 30 mins of your day....
Unless your parent unit is a 3 hour drive away. :ugh:

[airborne_artist]

There is the argument that if you behaved like adults and kept yourself fit without needing to be reminded, then you wouldn't need to be tested twice a year :E

In my green (TA) phase we had no PTIs, no gym/swimming pool, and no paid time to keep fit. We did have an annual CFT, which was required for bounty payment (£1500 odd at current prices). That cheque was quite an incentive :ok:

[rudekid]

aa

Is that why the Army have compulsory PT then?:}

[Sinjmajeep]

How many compulsory fitness tests do the Army do every year?

[airborne_artist]

RK - See my answer/edit above.

[Scribbly dee]

The bit I like best is the way we change the deadline every other year. One year you have to complete it the month after your birthday then next year it changes to within the financial year. The best one is when you have to do it in the financial year and 30 seconds after 1 Apr OC Admin contacts PEdO to say get everybody through the test as soon as possible because we want our figures to look good. PEdO thinks oh my god here we go again and spends god knows how much time trying to get everyone through except the old and bold who point out that they have 11 months more to do it in. Excellent sport.

If you cannot pass the test then you should hand in your kit on the way home.

[Gnd]

Oh how good this all sounds but to hand in your kit and leave is a little drastic. What about a high-level compromise.
Those who can, go and do and those who can't (pass), get on with all the jobs that those of us who can, do not want to do? (I know less time on ops etc... but....less promotion, op bonus, medals and kudos too???)
We would then have a fit front line (not true at the moment and isn't needed apparently) and dedicated (but less fit) rear echelon. Why throw people out? If we are so short make them civvies in the same job?
I still say that they will do nothing regardless of weather you pass or fail, numbers of attended will bluff most star watchers.
Never know there may be another way?

PS - Army do 3

[brakedwell]

If you want to get fitter may I suggest a series of Trot Pasts to celebrate VE Day, VJ day, the Battle of Britain, Aden, Malaya, Korea, the Falklands conflict, the Queen's Birthday, the Duke's Birthday and Gordon Brown's Birthday. Princess Anne and her siblings can dress up as athletes, with medals of course, and wave aggressively as you trot past Buck House in double quick time. :}

[Fire 'n' Forget]

The minute the higher ranks start 'doing' and setting an example then the troops will gladly follow, its a proven form of leadership. I believe a lot of them are exempt CCS, IRT,IDT and fitness testing as well as not having to remain CR in a current role.



It's exactly the same as politicians awarding themselves a payrise every year, it just looks and smells bad.

[cockneyrock]

Sinjmajeep - How many compulsory fitness tests do the Army do every year?
The Army do their Combat Fitness Test (8 Miles loaded march in 2 hours) once per year and their Basic Fitness Test (1.5 mile run or bleep test plus sit ups and press ups) twice per year.

[dallas]

The minute the higher ranks start 'doing' and setting an example then the troops will gladly follow, its a proven form of leadership. I believe a lot of them are exempt CCS, IRT,IDT and fitness testing as well as not having to remain CR in a current role.
They're way too busy interfering with those doing the job, reinventing, reorganising, rewriting, renaming and demanding pointless stats.

They are perhaps the main reason I'm leaving, in fact.

[Report Line]

Wyler,

can that 'period of training' be self training?

[toddbabe]

Wocca cock you haven't got a clue what it is I do have you? and I am not an SAC, was once and loved it, unlike many of you who spout about the trades and ranks when you haven't been them! keep guessing though.
Yeah I live in Elgin what does that prove?

[rudekid]

TB

I think you live IN Elgin, unless it's some sort of alternative lifestyle for the dyslexic that I'm not aware of. In which case, I've no idea what it proves. Please enlighten us?

[wokkameister]

I too was an SAC. Your still a cock!

WM

[Mr C Hinecap]

stop throwing handbags you great queenies!

We need to get fit.
The old system wasn't working.
The new system is being really badly rolled out (a la JPA etc etc)
We'll make it work as we always do.

Without proper motivation and the ability to make it enjoying, the same people will get fitter and the same slobs will NOT want to get involved because it is dull jockstrapping to meet targets. PEdO and PTIs - show me your worth and engage us in something fun that works - it can be done.

[buoy15]

Scribbly dee
It gets more better!
Late 80's, the Staish decides he wants to win the Mounsey Trophy
Next day the PEd Flt SAMA went down? - so everybody has to do the swim test again
"But I did it last Friday"
"Doesn't count - get in the water, 12 of your best"
Pre, and post "crash?" results go to Cmnd - we win - he is now a AVM (Rtd)
What a funny old thing;)

[BootFlap]

To paraphrase...
'what combat unit ever passed an inspection (test)'.
'I'd rather have people feeling comfortable and doing their job than looking good'
'Toddbabe, take a f@cking speeling test before your next fitness test' (notice the aye-run-ee!)
'why should I be discriminated for being unfit, I like killing the enemy as much as the rest of them!'

[Stuff]

PEdO and PTIs - show me your worth and engage us in something fun that works - it can be done.

I think that's a particularly unfair comment.

Neither the PEdO nor the PTIs are the driving force introducing these performance indicators and extra assessments. Nor are they responsible for the farce that was the operational fitness test to say nothing of the issues they are having to face wrt Project ATHENA.

If you think that PEdOs and PTIs want to administer extra fitness tests then you are very much mistaken.

[SRENNAPS]

Some of the things I have read here today are just unbelievable and quite frankly I think most of you are talking bollacks.

For example:

“No sir it is you who speaks b*ll*cks. I am a shift worker, and I cannot be excused work for routine appointments. All my colleagues are the same, and the majority of people on the stn, in other sections, also work shifts and also need to fit in their personal admin in their own time.”

Are you really trying to tell me that you cannot do any of these admin duties when you are on shift? You have to do it in your own time??. So how do non-shift workers do their admin chores? I think that if you cannot have a medical, pop up to PSF, DHE, Dental, Clothing Stores or carry out a fitness test during your time on shift, then you work on a crap Sqn/Section.

I cannot be bothered to reply to some of the other stupid comments here.

Younger people of the armed forces are more fitness oriented than us older generation. I can’t fault that. However, I do resent some of the comments being made about the older generation. At the end of the day we did our job well and we won.

Today everything is about a test. You can take a person who joined in the 70’s or 80’s. He may have been through the Cyprus problems, The Falklands War, GW1, Bosnia, Kosovo and many detachments all around the world. He did the business and he did it well. Slowly but surely as our tempo has increased following GW1. Over the years the 9 till 5ers have come out of the woodwork and “tested OUR ability to do OUR jobs”

A quick message to all those spouting on about the need for Politically Correct Fitness and especially those that have had a go at the older generation. Never forget that they have been there, seen it and done it and they did not need to be tested twice a year.

[Sven Sixtoo]

SRENNAPS (and others)

The sort of shift work being talked about is:

RS15 on SAR
Manning Air Traffic
Maintaining the radar watch on UK Airspace

and so on.

All such shifts are manned on a digital basis - there is nobody spare to cover. You usually can't leave the building. In some jobs you cannot leave your post at all without a formal relief.

Please realise some of us just can't down tools and go do triv elsewhere.

[BootFlap]

SRRENAPS,

if, as I suspect, you are saying that us old gits who 'have been there, got the T-shirt' and continue to get the 'T-shirts' are a bit fed up of coming home to be told that there are now an extra 10 PIs we have to meet, then I am with you. Just let us get on with it for F@cks sake.

[SRENNAPS]

Sven Sixtoo,

I am happy to stand corrected with respect to that type of shift work.

However, in my experience the subsequent time off given following these awkward shift patterns have an element built in to allow admin tasks to be carried out. I also realise that things have changed over the years so this may not be the case now in certain jobs. But let’s face it the majority of the RAF can get the time off, during shift hours, to do admin.


Boot Flap,

That is exactly what I am trying to say.


It just annoys me when I see threads degenerate into a hate filled slagging match. We are all supposed to be on the same side.

[musclemech]

It won't be as of 1 Oct.

There will be a few changes to RAFFT but largely not till 1 Apr 08. Details are with Stn Cdrs at the moment, I believe.

With regards to the twice yearly RAFFT: The aim of the RAFFT is pure and simple to encourage personnel to train regularly. Research quite clearly demonstrates that people who exercise regularly are more healthy, have less time off sick, less chance of diabetes, cancer, and the biggest killer in the UK coronary heart disease.

It was felt that current standards and frequency were not enough to encourage everyone to exercise regularly. In other words you could pass it once a year without having to do any exercise. If standards alone were raised, people could exercise for a couple of weeks before it and then go back to not exercising again. Theb twice yearly test is an attempt to stop this. I appreciate that individuals can still exercise in prep for two tests and then stop, but there has to be a line...! And this line does indeed coincide with the twice yearly Personal Fitness Test that Army personnel do.

To answer the original question, yes there will be some additional workload for us. Additional JPA input, creating lists for OC xxx and very probably a large increase in failures, at least to begin with, to name but a few, but that's for us to whinge and worry about.

And I guess there will be extra burden for you as well. I hear the comments about getting time off and admin burden etc but in the last 20 or so years, I have often seen the same sections run by different Bosses go from 'not being able to do any fitness training as they are too busy' to 100% RAFFT rates and/ or winning the CO's Cup. I agree there are some jobs where time off is impossible, but I think these are few in number, and too often it is used as an excuse by those who don't want to exercise. As another example: last 3 Stn Cdrs at my current unit (ie same job): current one exercises regularly, predecessor too busy, one before that exercised regularly.

MM

[toddbabe]

Sven sixtoo those trades that you just described account for about 1% of the RAF's total manpower! that aside the SAR boys although stretched at the moment do still get excellent shifts and manage a lot of time off over the space of a year! Air trafficers don't just sit in the tower all the time in the same way that my working week isn't spent entirely flying, and whilst I don't know a lot about Scopies am pretty sure they must get lunch breaks and admin breaks!
The point I am making is that although getting to the gym is obviously more difficult for some more than others, you CAN if you want to or HAVE TO get down there, the fact is that some people would rather find excuses to not go.
And as for not being able to get around the station for duty appointments, well I am afraid that is a pile of horse!:mad:

[PMA's Toy]

musclemech,

Am I to understand that this extra fitness test is to encourage me to be healthier and better exercised so I don't get heart disease? If so, that's very gallant, but surely the RAF should only be interested in whether or not I'm fit enough to do my job?

[musclemech]

PMAT

Although the RAF might be interested in you being fit to do your job, it is very difficult to test whether you are or not, as the concept of fitness is too specific. A clerk needs a different type of fitness than an armourer; a pilot a different type of fitness than a JEngO; even a FJ pilot needs a different fitness than an AT pilot. The OFA was an attempt to find tasks that could be done by everyone ie on ops and then test them specifically and that turned out to be extremely difficult to do.

No, the RAFFT was introduced for the reasons I mention above. It is a health based test and nothing whatsoever to do with fitness to serve, operate or any other task (This, I think, will be written on my headstone!!).

In theory to pass the test you should have to exercise regularly. If you do you gain health wise (see previous post) and that was the basis upon which the RAFFT was introduced. Obviously the RAF benefits to a certain extent as those who exercise regularly have less time off sick and are more productive etc but the main thrust behind the introduction was for the health benefits to the individual.

MM

[TonkaEngO]

Toddbabe n Srennaps,

Like your style,
So so many of the bleating KOS on here - good to hear your enlightened views. Fancy a beer when next up "north"?

[toddbabe]

PMA's toy have you not heard the terms "Investors in people" or "Duty of care"? The RAF does care that you are fit enough to do your job but as stated can't differentiate between trades except for RAF Reg (BFT) or whatever they call it nowadays, so they expect their men (and women!) to attain a certain basic level of fitness, not a high level mind! just a level that indicates that you aren't a total biff, imagine for one second in todays litigious society if Sqn Ldr fatty falls and breaks his leg doing some physical exercise! off to court he could go saying "well I haven't been cleared for this or that and haven't been tested to say I am fit enough" you may laugh but this could easily happen.
The Armed Services in which we serve require us to be phsically fit FACT, Those levels are in my opinion not nearly high enough, but my opinion unfortunately counts for nothing, however The RAF IS raising it levels and the penalties for failiure are going to be harsher and more stringently enforced, to succesfully and fairly enforce the higher levels before action can be taken subjects must be given reasonable opportunity to attain the new levels, and like your supposedly mandatory mid term appraisal for you assesments an extra fitness test may well be the way to do this!
The extra test if in fact it ever happens (probably not) could be a good performance indicator to the subject and P'ed staff to tailor their training before the real annual pass or fail test, personally I see no need and would happily be tested any time of the year but in todays caring, sharing, tree hugger world the powers that be have to be seen to do everything they can to ensure that they are not in any way neglegent.
Get used to it extra test or not the RAF has finally realised that it's people aren't fit enough and by hook or by crook they seem determined to change it:D

[wokkameister]

Are you a PTI by chance?

[TheInquisitor]

Obviously the RAF benefits to a certain extent as those who exercise regularly have less time off sick and are more productive

...but they take more time off for 'sport' and leave us fat bastards to pick up the slack doing the real job...more productive my fat arse!

the penalties for failiure are going to be harsher and more stringently enforced

No they aren't. Not whilst there are different standards for males and females - this amounts to gender discrimination, which the MoD has, in its wisdom, decided not to exempt the armed forces from. If a bloke can pass the (currently pathetic) fermale standard, but fails to make the male standard, any sanction imposed would be unlawful.

my opinion unfortunately counts for nothing
The first correct statement you have made in this thread.

[musclemech]

"No they aren't. Not whilst there are different standards for males and females - this amounts to gender discrimination, which the MoD has, in its wisdom, decided not to exempt the armed forces from. If a bloke can pass the (currently pathetic) fermale standard, but fails to make the male standard, any sanction imposed would be unlawful."Any sanctions are based on the individual's attitude to fitness (and/or in the case of NCO/ Officers, their attitude to their subordinates' fitness) not on whether they have passed the test or not. If they fail, and have a good attitude to training, and carry out their training programme consistently and appropriately, they will pass. If they don't, then they won't pass. Sanctions can then be applied for poor attitude / failure to carry out orders ie you are to attend the gym at the following times and carry out the following training programme.

MM

[musclemech]

As for sanctions? What would be effective?
The sanctions are basically administrative/ disciplinary, progressing with each subsequent failure. Beginning with Interview with OC; charge for failure to carry out orders; informal warning; formal warning; culminating in admin discharge. These are set out in a P1 Policy letter.
These are likely to have some impact on an individual's career and so are generally effective if they are followed through (whether they are or not is a different thread entirely). I have heard of one person who has or is about to be admin discharged, but my experience is that when applied properly, the sanctions are effective.
Indeed if they do do extra duties effectively it rather proves they are fit for the job.
Maybe so, but RAFFT doesn't test fitness for the job and has nothing (directly) to do with it.
MM

[Magp1e]

Air trafficers don't just sit in the tower all the time
When on duty...yes we do! 6 control positions; 6 controllers per shift. Granted there are opportunities to combine control positions when traffic levels are low, and release controllers if there are gaps in the flying programme. However, due to undermanning, my particular unit is covering 6 positions with 5 controllers. Off console time is spent completing a number of primary associated duties such as training reports, ATA currency exercises etc. The ONLY way we can attend fitness tests, med/dental appointments and the like is in our off duty time.

[BEagle]

"With regards to the twice yearly RAFFT: The aim of the RAFFT is pure and simple to encourage personnel to train regularly. Research quite clearly demonstrates that people who exercise regularly are more healthy, have less time off sick, less chance of diabetes, cancer, and the biggest killer in the UK coronary heart disease."

Well, sorry, but I reckon that's utter bolleaux. Because back in the more gentlemanly days of the 70s and 80s when very few aircrew indeed committed jockstrappery, we were hardly dropping like flies. And the only people who were off sick regularly were the jockstrappers.

[PPRuNeUser0211]

Honestly, you folk with your "penalise the failures" attitude;) Think positive. The RSAF (that's the singaporean variety!) take an annual personal fitness test (a mile and a half or so) and have various levels of achievement.

"Fail" leads to remedial PT for said individual at least 4 times a week until required standard is met.

"Bronze" level is the basic pass, wonderful, fit for duty well done.

"silver" level is a quicker time than "Bronze" and said individual is rewarded for his/her attitude towards his personal fitness with $100 of your finest singaporean beer chits.

"Gold" is a quicker still time (the level required for this is pretty good, around the 9min 15 mark) and results in $200! Now that's incentive to get fit... especially if you're doing the test twice a year;)

[musclemech]

Well, sorry, but I reckon that's utter bolleaux. Because back in the more gentlemanly days of the 70s and 80s when very few aircrew indeed committed jockstrappery, we were hardly dropping like flies. And the only people who were off sick regularly were the jockstrappers.
BEagle
An oft used but spurious argument. We can all cite examples of people we knew who smoke 20 a day, did no exercise, and lived till they were 90. Equally, I know jockstrappers who have died from heart attacks and suffered from cancer.
The research, carried out on larger populations than RAF aircrew, shows clear evidence that those who exercise regularly live longer, are less likely to suffer heart disease etc etc (see previous posts).
MM

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

Toddbabe


my opinion unfortunately counts for nothing


Disagree. But you're quite right that your opinion counts for nothing.

[Report Line]

Gents,

I have seen a lot of below the belt stuff over the last few days on this subject. Most of which does not befit a forum of this type.

The fact is - we need to lose a few pounds. The dirty percy lot often have a go at our expense. This we cannot afford. If you want to go on operations you have to be fit. Moreover, the youngsters we are getting nowadays are scarily fit. Do what you are told and get on with it. If you don't like it - still do what you are told and get on with it. That's what being in the military is all about isn't it. Unless of course you want to be a politician or a teacher.

[Sinjmajeep]

Another scribbly who has time to go on expeds no doubt. If the RAF think that keeping the RAFT to just once a year is not a good incentive to keep the people fighting fit then why not make the test longer and more difficult.

[rudekid]

MuscleMech

Thanks for the informed responses. Do you think that the general level of fitness has improved over the last few years, or are we at the same level as we were prior to the introduction of the RAFFT? (10years?)

I think we're generally fitter, which can only be good news. I just don't see any requirement for us to do extra testing. Sinjmajeep makes a good point. Why not just make the test more difficult? An extra admin hoop to jump through is just going to make all our lives more difficult, people more resentful of the gym and be another statistic for Air Cmd to sit on. Achieves nothing, IMHO.

[TheInquisitor]

The fact is - we need to lose a few pounds.
Why? I have yet to see a convincing argument, other than "'cos the Army keeps taking the pi$$ out of us" - so ferkin what?
If you want to go on operations you have to be fit.
Fit for what? Do we have a whole swathe of people being deployed who are unfit to do their job? Do we have techies dropping like flies whilst fixing aircraft? Do we have scribblies colapsing under the tremendous strain of stamping R&R flight applications? Are whole hordes of coppers dying on their feet at the camp gates? Is the flying programme faling apart because fat aircrew can't keep up?

No, the ONLY people who are keeling over in theatre are those racing snakes who are utterly stupid enough to attempt strenous exercise in conditions of extreme heat and dryness. The simple fact is, we are fit enough to do our jobs, and that's all that matters. If the Army wish to take the piss out of the more rotund of us, let them. Unlike them, we have no requirement to run around fields or deserts with guns and 100lb packs.

FACT - the RAF loses more productivity due to people sloping off for sport, and due to sports-related injuries, than anything else. Trying to enforce higher standards of 'fitness' than we actually require will only result in breaking more people who were perfectly fit enough to do their job in theatre in the first place. If the jockstrappers feel the need to jockstrap to satisfy their own sense of inadequacy, let them. The rest of us will just quietly get on with doing our jobs.

[top_cover]

When the consequences of failing the fitness test implemented, and when structured time off is given for fitness, then it will be taken seriously. Untill then it will remain the admin burden that it always has been.

[Sinjmajeep]

How are the RAF going to be able to discharge someone for continually failing the RAFT when you have lots of people who are exempt the RAFT due to medical conditions?
These people are able to do their jobs perfectly well but would not be able to do the RAFT in its present format.

[Wader2]

Sinjmajeep, MuscleMan had the size of it when he said the RAFFT was introduced for the reasons I mention above. It is a health based test and nothing whatsoever to do with fitness to serve, operate or any other task

So the issue, asides from b^lls ache, admin problems and ultimately sanctions, has nothing whatever to do with operations as people who are unfit are still sent overseas.

No, the issue is one of simple fitness. An issue that must be sold to the troops so that they can engage with fitness. The present system, testing aside, is for structured PE on all courses over N weeks duration. In initial training the new recruit is introduced to a range of physical exercise possibilities. Once out in the world there are opportunities but no formal structure.

Without a formal structure the only measure of fitness has been the RAFFT. Much griping here has been about the diversion from primary tasks or the need to undertake exercise, and tests, in own time.

What we need is for someone to have the b^lls to make fitness training part of the primary task. This would mean that existing tasks are cut back not that fitness is shoehorned in.

As has already been mentioned we would need an increase in manning if we are to do the primary task and fitness training without impinging on personal quality of life time.

NB

Yes, some people have stacks of free time. Lots of others do not.

[cornish-stormrider]

:EA sensible answer. How dare you sir! get thee hence from this place:E

[Windbag]

RL,

interesting that you have seen some 'scarily fit' youngsters of late, but the Army are having to do some serious remedial training of their recruits to help them achieve entry standards let alone AFT standards.

However, I agree that this is (yet) another hoop to jump through, I would like to hope that the Service's medical support was going to be up to scratch with the problems that enforced jockstrappery may well induce? Or is that another thread.....Taxi!:rolleyes:

[musclemech]

Thanks for the informed responses. Do you think that the general level of fitness has improved over the last few years, or are we at the same level as we were prior to the introduction of the RAFFT? (10years?)

RudeKid

It's difficult to say whether we are all fitter than ten years ago, because then we all stopped at the required level, but certainly the numbers failing seems to have dropped, which is what prompted the last raise of standards. Certainly there has been a huge culture change: 20 years ago the mess/ NAAFI bars were full at lunchtimes, and the gym was deserted. Now the bars are closed and the gyms are full. However, there are still a fair proportion as you can see from some of the responses on this thread who think that exercise is a dirty word.

The idea behind two tests a year is to encourage people to exercise regularly throughout the year, rather than just once a year. Raising the standard for a once a year test would just mean more of the latter.

What we need is for someone to have the b^lls to make fitness training part of the primary task. This would mean that existing tasks are cut back not that fitness is shoehorned in.


Wader

Couldn't agree more, and it is what we have been pushing for. It will probably happen, but it will take time. 20 odd years ago there was nothing (see above). Now there is a fitness test, which has had a few increases in, now the AFB is encouraging personnel to have 3 sessions of exercise per week where possible in work time. I know that not everyone can manage that, but the thought is there. They consider this a leadership issue, and as I have said before in this thread: I have seen sections go from doing nothing 'because they are too busy' to being gym regulars when a new Boss is posted in, so I have seen it in action. There is talk of doing the PTL qualification for offices during IOT which might help.

We are moving in the right direction to what you suggest. In time, everyone who is in the RAF will have had the RAFFT their entire career, and the anti-exercise brigade will have faded away. One can only hope that their attitude to it will not have been passed down to those who remain...

MM

[cornish-stormrider]

I would have loved to do fatness test twice a year. I could just about struggle my lardy cake eating prop forward carcass to the required levels. I am not now or ever have been a runner. I did spend a lot of time in the gym, on my own time staying fit. Prime reason was on the rare days there was good big surf at lossie, I was on it and not drowning. I loved doin phis right up until Headley Court told me the remedial physio for my back injuries had made the condition permanent. Now I live a life of constant pain and suffering. My drugs are good though. Fitness good, extra admin Bullshot bad.

I do like the motivation with beer chits mentioned earlier though.

[formertonkaplum]

Agree with every word of your last Posting....

I think the term 'Fit for Purpose' sums it up. If you can do your job, in all conditions regardless of your size / build, you MUST be fit.

Doesn't QR's simply say you are to be maintain a level of fitness to allow you to perform your duties...... or..... Fit For Purpose.

FTP

[Pontius Navigator]

MJ, as you mention St Mawgan I presume you have been in the AE House at Kef. OK, it's an island with limited facilities near the base but it is a Gym Hall, it was scruffy, that puts ours to shame.

You could hire a locker so you didn't have to drag all your kit around. Under one roof it had a sports hall, raquet courts, weight rooms, pool complex, sauna, steam rooms etc

We really need more and better facilities but then you have Edward Leigh of the House Financial Affairs or whatever lambasting the Army for spending £400k on sports facilities when FQs are unsatisfactory.

We are back on the old money wheel. We need more for everything, not just the front line.

Remember Front Line First, Fitness Last :)

[insty66]

However, the idea of the local girls' under -18 netball team sharing facilities does have its merits!!

The Bruggen Basketball team always had a good turnout for training with everyone getting there nice and early, Nothing to do with the Aerobics class that preceded the session:E

Perhaps more motivation of that sort is the key!:}

[AIDU]

In time, everyone who is in the RAF will have had the RAFFT their entire career,That maybe the case but not everyone has to do the RAFFT. How many senior Officers don't do it?

[Pontius Navigator]

Remember one 1.5 mile run. No crap about shift workers. Staish declared a ground training day. Everyone ran the 1.5 mile. I don't think it was al together as there was not the space.

Most times were quite respectable even though dress or the day was DPM or Growbag and boots. Even the statish ran. With that leadership who can afford to shirk (if you are a sqn ldr or wg cdr).

Some times were very good, some space cadets who joined were good too but most were very shabby and in the also rans.

It helped of course that the PEd staff had measured the distance short :)
Just measured it on Google, well short.

[diginagain]

One from the early days of the Army BFT.

The gym staff couldn't be bothered with measuring a mile and a half, so they just calculated how may laps of a standard running track were needed to complete the distance. The first part of the test was a squadded march over 1.5 miles. For the individual best effort sprint, they asked everyone to shout out the number of laps they'd completed to the PTI stood on the finishing line.

Yeah, right.

[Magp1e]

I'm not sure we're fitter now than we were a decade ago. When I go to the gym I'd guess the average age in there is 30ish. My last Stn Cdr's sports day I decided to run a leg of the 4x100 relay and thought I was in for a thrashing as I was 36.....looking across the lanes it turned out I was one of the younger runners! Asking where the SAC/Cpl/Fg Offs were someone replied "on their f*kng playstations". :)

[Fast but Safe]

I realize that this is a topic where everyone has a strong opinion, whatever view you side on.

On a personal note, I am physically fit and do my own training where I live, which is away from my place of work. My main gripe is that I have been told to attend fitness training at my station while I am 'off shift'. This training is held a couple of hours before the start of a late shift at work.

So my question is..... Do permanent day workers do their compulsory PT training before they start work, after they finish or on a weekend?

Why do I get the feeling the answer is going to be - 'In work time' !!

[BEagle]

In the good old days before such unseemly jockstrappery, the Stn Cdr of an Oxonian transport base decided that fitness was A Good Thing. So he ordained that everyone was to complete X number of laps of the station sports field.

This went down without a murmur amongst the wily old Specialist Aircrew gents.

Come the day and some gym queen with a whistle blew it. One or two racing snakes hurtled into the distance....

Then along came the truckies, having been shown where the sports field actually was. Complete with walking sticks, dogs, pipes etc. They ambled gently along, stopping now and again to chat with eachother as befits gentlemen out for a country stroll in a 'Last of the Summer Wine' style.

After a suitable interval, the sweaty racing snakes came sprinting in, having duly covered however many laps it was.

But over an hour later, the last of the truckies finally crossed the line for the last time - then they all raised their flat caps to the purple-faced Stn Cdr and pottered off to the Officers' Mess for a beer.

Old age and treachery - you can't beat it!

[cornish-stormrider]

:D:D:D

Age and guile....... Maybe I will get there

Oh who am I kidding

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

Some of the lads from 3 Sqn demonstrating the importance of all this only yesterday:

http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n131/Golf_Bravo_Zulu/Con_07_663_Out_Unc_022E.jpg

From the MODWEB; RAF Coningsby today saw the crew from No 3 (Fighter) Squadron scrambled as if responding to a call from the government that there was an aircraft acting suspiciously in UK airspace. Squadron Leader Paul Smith was at the controls and was seen running to his aircraft as the klaxon alert sounded.
He dived into the Hardened Aircraft Shelter (HAS) where his aircraft stood waiting, jumped into the cockpit and strapped in. Meanwhile his ground crew made the final fuselage and electrical checks before the aircraft roared into the air - just four minutes after the call to deploy was made

Clearly one needs to be athletic for all that running, diving, jumping and strapping.

[diginagain]

Chappy closest to the camera appears to be wearing daps. ('Trainers' in the modern parlance.)

Is he a Chav, or was he interrupted on his way to the Gym?

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

Thread OFF

Why not reduce the distance that said heroic quartet have to run to the aircraft by either having the crewroom/ready room inside the HAS, or (better) parking the aircraft outside (weather permitting)? Would be mighty embarrassing if the HAS doors jammed etc etc...

Thread ON

[Wader2]

TOTD, oh come on. Its a PR shot.

We once had a PR shoot of a Vulcan crew responding to an alert. The crew 'hid' round the corner in a corridor in the Cottesmore Ops block.

The tannoy burbled, the crew ran, the producer said action and the photographer photographed the mepty hall.

Cut.

Take 2

ditto

Cut

Take 3

ditto

Cut

Crew now assembled in hall in statuesque full flight

Action

cameras rolling

Go

crew ran

Cut.

It also shows you what too much diving does for your hair.

[insty66]

So when they have launched the a/c is that when they do the pressups and situps?:rolleyes:

And do they have to do a different amount of launches if there is a female involved.:hmm:

[Safety_Helmut]

Those trainers would be of a steel toecapped variety I suspect !

I want to know why that pilot isn't wearing his dayglo vest ? :eek:

S_H

[Wader2]

S_H,

He is. He just hasn't inflated it.

[AIDU]

I like the way he has his right arm outstretched to let anybody behind him that he is turning right.

[An Teallach]

I thought he was either an opportunist pickpocket or just exceptionally good friends with the chum on his right.

[Headstone]

I know it has been round before but this thread reminded me of it as indeed did the thread about not being able to wear trendy civvies when off duty in an operational theatre...

DEFENCE BULLYING REPORT - RAF Worst of the Three Services

A recent report by the Equal Opportunities Audit Team has found that allegations of "a culture of widespread bullying and brutality" within the British Forces are, in the most part, unfounded. The audit team, which travelled to every Defence establishment across the UK and abroad and interviewed staff from all three services, found surprisingly few cases of unfair treatment and bullying within the Army and Navy.
When it came to the Airforce, however, the report told a different story. Complaints to the EOAT came from a total of 13,555 RAF members, compared with three from Navy and just one from Army.
While this statistic is alarming in its own right, it becomes horrific when one considers that each complaint represents a sad story of abuse, mistreatment and neglect. As one senior RAF officer put it, "Each story is, in itself, a sad indictment on the RAF. When taken as a whole, however, they demonstrate a reprehensible lack of regard for personnel on the part of RAF managers at all levels."
One young pilot told of having to spend two nights in tented accommodation, despite the fact that there was an empty five-star hotel just 1km away.
Another said that he had been forced to endure a gruelling fitness test every year since he joined in 1997.

One airwoman alleged that she had been overlooked for promotion on numerous occasions, simply because she was fat, lazy and stupid.
An aircraftman stated he had been refused permission to wear civilian attire to work, despite the fact that his uniform clashed with his eye colour.
Another had been forced to wear uncomfortable safety boots for periods of up to eight hours straight.
A number of personnel complained of having to attend courses that were not relevant to their jobs, such as rigorous ground combat courses and drawn-out lectures on occupational health and safety. To add insult to injury, a young corporal was even ordered to pack up chairs in the classroom after one such course.

The huge backlash against treatment of Air Force personnel should provide senior officers with a vital clue with regard to the massive retention problems experienced by the RAF in recent times. Over the past two years, Defence has spent some £19.8 million looking into the issue.
Not all of the Air Force's hierarchy, however, were upset by the revelations. Said outgoing Chief of the Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal Sir Errol Flynn, KCB CBE DSO ADC BSc(Eng) FRAeS RAF, "I'm delighted with the result. I am very happy that our retention problems are due, in the most part at least, to something as harmless as bullying. I thought everyone was leaving because of me

[Pontius Navigator]

Ah, but what happened next?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/player/nol/newsid_6290000/newsid_6293600/6293638.stm?bw=bb&mp=wm

Some of the lads from 3 Sqn demonstrating the importance of all this only yesterday:

http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n131/Golf_Bravo_Zulu/Con_07_663_Out_Unc_022E.jpg

From the MODWEB;

Clearly one needs to be athletic for all that running, diving, jumping and strapping.

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

BBC .... one of these 'planes, poised at the end of Coningsby's runway, 24 hours a day

Glad I'm not SATCO CBY.

[Big Bear]

When the Beep sounds do they all turn around and run away from the ac?

Bear

[femmers]

The amount of time you lot have spent whinging on here u could have completed multiple fitness tests. Amuses me how some people are saying that due to policy changes from station to station etc, they've completed twice as many fitness tests as they have completed years in the service. It won't be a problem to do 2 a year then will it?
The fitness standard is embarrassing in the RAF amongst far too many people (and before people jump in, I'm not saying that 2 fitness tests a year will solve this, but the negative outburst on here against the 2nd RAFFT highlights why the RAF has got a problem).

[rudekid]

Femmers

I've got a problem with extra and unnecessary admin. Whether its fitness, GDT or anything else.

It's not the concept of fitness that bothers me, I run marathons, play sport, keep fit. If people like me are moaning about the fitness test, does that not suggest there could be issues with it?

Extra fitness testing won't make me fitter, or any of the guys I work with. It's just extra performance indicators for higher command. Fatties will be fatties, gym dodgers will still dodge the gym.

More bulls@@t is not what we need...

And before anyone else repeats themselves, this thread has run it's course.

[AIDU]

this thread has run it's course

No it hasn't. We need to keep going over the same ground, back and forth until we reach a level where we feel the end is in sight. Maybe some of the posts could be bleeped out but still we need to push on up and make sure we sit up straight whilst typing our posts.

[Al R]

Unless I'm a total idiot, there should be some system genetrated text around here, that I'm about to loosely agree with. In case I'm not that clever, this was the sentiment by AC that struck a chord.

"I get so pi$$ed off with people in the RAF complaining that they are wasting their time doing what they are told to do. The fact is that they are not wasting their own time, they are wasting the RAF's time. Just get on with it, guys."

I would add one point though. If you are going to test someone, you have to train them first.. this is a fundemental mistake that the Air Force makes time and time again. You have to give them a chance to demonstrate why they are unable to reach a pre-determined standard. Remember the CCS debacle of the early 90s, when we started telling people to take home videos and teach themselves wpn handling?

I accept that training time is short for everyone, and although I've been out of the loop for 4 years now, the one thing that really boiled my pi$$ on any CCS course, was not so much the attitude of the airmen, but that of the NCOs and officers. In many cases, if there was an opportunity to snipe at the system, then the majority would, in front of the men. I know that free thinking and being slightly left field is the ethos of a service which is creative and intelligent, and which I am proud that I was a part of, but the ultimate aim should be to present men to battle, fit to do so. I wonder too, how much of this is down to intelligent and expressive men articulating their grief about being told to do something which is going to make them pant? Think about it. The RAF has spent a fortune on its gyms and everywhere I served, they were allwatys oversubscribed at lunchtimes (you couldn't get on the running machines for the likes of dear old Janice from Accounts using a £1000 runner to walk 500 metres at 1.2 mph), so where's the problem?

Now.. the RAF is in warfighting up to its neck (the 3 Rockapes who died last week a dreadful and timely reminder of that).. and its complaining about going to the gym?? I'm sorry, have we lost the plot here? I understand though, completely, the commanders who complain that their men are stretched to breaking point anyway. But they should be doing everything at their level to ensure that their men are fit, and not relying on some edict that their men have to be tested twice a year. I know its very 'army' and not the 'done thing old man', but whats there to stop young officers organising runs and sport as part of the working day? The answer that '..its not the way we do things around here' has to stop and the old guard needs to realise that too.

Bottom line is, we're sending men to war.. we have a duty to ensure they are fit so lets stop asking 'why?', and lets start asking 'why not 3, why not 4 tests if they're needed?'. If officers don't have the time to address that ultimate aim, then its up to the likes of Glenn Torpy and the pinnacles of command to ensure that things change, and that will be the measure of their success. Because those folk at the top exist solely for the purpose of Cpl Bloggs and the likes of him, lets not forget. If Cpl Bloggs is unfit and/or unable to do his job, then those guys at the top are letting him and the country down. And I'm sorry, its no longer sufficient for their Airships to say 'Ah, the things we do behind the scenes, the battles we fight with our political masters..'. We have been told this since NMS kicked in as far as I can remember, and probably even longer than that. I was in the Congo on Op Determinant when this g'ment got elected, and I remember thinking 'uh ohh'. How long did it take for Gordon Brown to sell off the married quarters to Japanese venture capitalists eh? And now that thats forgotten, and hes spent the money elsewhere, we're all living with the consequences.. yet another moral issue for young families in shabby accom who are only too willing to complain about more and more issues like going to the gym.

THAT is the more addressable question and to avoid the real issues, we can lay down as much smoke as we like about poor Cpl Bloggs having to attend the gym, bless 'is cotton socks. As an aside, does time wasting bilge such as EO training still take place? Dear God, please tell me there isn't mandatory Energy Conservation and Awareness training too now.. :sad:

I'll get down now.

[VinRouge]

I hate to point it out old chap, but the only souls that seem to fall over with heat stroke/heart attacks out in theatre are the mentallists who are so into their Phys that they insist on sticking to their traning regime in the heat of the sun. The fact is, we have been fit enough in recent times to do a bl00dy good job in two very demanding theatres in recent years, the likes of which we have not seen since WW2. So what has changed? This scheme will last 6 months just like all the others; as soon as they realise the scale of the problem, we will revert back to the old system with the old limits whilst in the mean time, we are going to have to put up with the obvious d*ck dance of two tests a year for B*gger all reason. :ugh:

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

AI R You didn't say so but are you also advocating a reduced "output" to cover the time lost from the day-job? Depending on Branch/Trade that would mean fewer machines on the flightline/in the air or, say, reduced air traffic movements; unless one invokes the services of the arbeit fairy. Is that what you meant? As you say, that would need some commitment from CAS downwards.

I saw something similar to this in relation to an Ex CAPE PETREL when CBFFI was an infantry wallah. He wanted everyone in Theatre to take part in Stags and weapon training for the last stand against the Orange hordes. Went down like a brick budgerigar with the Eng types and Stackers. He still wanted the same availability and readiness from the Ten, the Tonkas and the HELOs; plus Timmy turnrounds and all the supporting bits. It wasn’t my problem as it wasn’t my shade of blue but I could certainly sympathise with them. The principle is the same. You can’t get a litre of beer out of a pint bottle.

[vecvechookattack]

we have a duty to ensure they are fit Or do they have a duty to be fit. Whose responsibility is your pysical fitness? I always like to blame my lack of fitness on the Padre......

...Who do you blame it on?

[PingDit]

MJ..

Where, if my memory serves me correctly, after enduring several refreshments, we were ferried back to the squadron by an MT coach?...happy days...;)

[PingDit]

Solved it! We all do the 1 1/2 mile run as a race to the biggest bar available. Everyone who gets there within the allocated time gets free pint from the Boss. Anyone who doesn't, has to buy a round. If you have to buy 3 rounds in 3 years, you have to pack your bags! - It's gotta work!
....I digress.... I'm 54, have never had a problem don't mind doing 2 a year, make it 4 if it makes someone feel better. Tell me though, why is it the young lads on my station can't even keep up on the golf fairway? They all look knackered after the first 3 fairways! Are we accepting a lower fitness level on entry now?

Old Gits Rule
:E

[Al R]

VinRouge,

Sure, I can think of a few extremely fiot folk who collapse, but they do that wherever they are.. and lets not confuse medical with physical fitness either. Folk who look after themselves are more likely to have increased stamina, powers of concentration and they can operate far longer too.

We should all aim for as high a standard of physical fitness as possible, and not simply accepting of 'getting by'. I'm not advocating silly extremes, but there is not much margin for safety in just in getting by. Detachments are getting longer and longer and the demands are getting greater and greater. I cannot see any problem in a test which might last as long as it takes to read this thread, highlighting any problems in/to someone.

[Al R]

Dear vecvechookattack (http://www.pprune.org/forums/member.php?u=108038),

If I had a responsibility for the performance and results of the men in my charge, it would be my responsibility. I would certainly not pass the buck because I was afraid that asking them to go to gym for an hour would result in a collective crewroom chunter. Thankfully, most folk look after themselves now anyway.

At a half marathon near London recently, there were a load of young lads (too old to be recruits by the looks of it) with Benevolent Fund T shirts running. My next door neighbour (a 46 year old retired chief) beat them around, in fact 2 out of the 8 didn't even finish. He's only been training for 3 months, so there has to be something wrong somewhere if thats the situation.

I know that the RAF isn't likely to tab 13 miles into theatre anytime soon, but its still indicative of a potential problem. And I know too that although it isn't trendy, but whatever the branch or trade, a healthy body does lead to a healthy mind.. or as FS Curtis (ex Queens Colour Sqn) said to me before he released my bedpack out of the window one morning 'Shiny boots, shiny mind son :E'. lol

[Al R]

Dear GBZ,

I agree, there has to be common sense. But we're talking about an hour or so here. To my mind, I would have no problems at all in parading the troops and telling them that they'll be coming in at 07:00 the next day to carry out a fitness test. I would have pre briefed the sterling JNCOs to deal with the inevitable domestic dramas.

Its the military, I would expect my chain of command to fight my corner too, but at the same time, we all sign on knowing that we might have to actually work before 08:00 sometimes.

As an aside, I am reminded of one chap who attended CCS training in absolutely minging kit. He was a SNCO so before inspecting them, I took him to one side and suggested that as he was a bag of shyte, he might like to avoid the parade and the humiliation which would surely result. 'Thanks Al' he said '.. the wife only does one dark wash a week'.

:ugh: Is it any wonder eh?

[Top Right]

Al R,

It is indeed divisive to hear senior officers sniping during CCS in front of the troops. It's just a day after all, shut up, get on with it, and be part of the team.

But why it is voluntary for wg cdrs and above ..............?

And as for fitness, where are all the other jobs outside that promote fitness, sport and adventurous training as part of the lifestyle (accepted that current ops prevent many from doing as much as they'd like)? Isn't this what motivates some for staying in uniform despite the chip, chip, chipping

[vecvechookattack]

Firstly, you do not have the responsibility for the performance and results of the men in your charge...that is their responsibility.


Secondly, don't ask them to go to the gym you woooss...tell them to go to the gym.

[Maple 01]

vecvechookattack - Allways the internet hard-man, wonder what his blokes think of him

[Al R]

Firstly, you do not have the responsibility for the performance and results of the men in your charge...that is their responsibility.


Secondly, don't ask them to go to the gym you woooss...tell them to go to the gym.

"Commanders must be quite clear that they have a continuous responsibility for the well-being of their subordinates, and that any disregard or abuse of that responsibility amounts to neglect."

http://www.army.mod.uk/servingsoldier/usefulinfo/valuesgeneral/adp5milcov/ss_hrpers_values_adp5_3_w.html#integrity

Sure, I know its 'only' army, but hey. Perhaps your version would read: "Commanders may be occasionally reminded that they have variable levels of responsibility for the well-being of some of their subordinates, and that occasionaly, disregard or abuse of that responsibility might possibly amount to neglect."?

I'm quite happy at telling men to go to the gym. Its just that in the Regiment, I didn't have to do it all that often.

[buoy15]

This is a post I made in 2005 about this same farce
"I know at least 5 chaps over the last 10 years who killed themselves trying to keep fit at lunchtime or to pass the test - 2 of them had RAF colours for Squash and Athletics
I was lucky when the 1992 test came in - in my age group, I was technically allowed a week to walk the length of the gym - I decided on the easier option and drove past the gym on the way home. I maintained (and still do) my fitness, on my diet, lifestyle and choice of exercise, hence, I continue as "FIT" in my Log Book, with a PME of A1G1Z1.
Fitness is not measured by bleeps; it's measured by heart/pulse recovery rate after physical exertion
That's why some people can still breath through their nose having run 100m in 10 secs, but cannot manage 15 press-ups in the required bleep time"
"Love Many, Trust a Few, They're chasing stats and looking at you!"

[Big Bear]

I really don't see what the problem is.

Fit bloke/bird takes 2 hours a year to go to the gym and prove he/she can pass the FT. Gets the tick in the box and then carries on with his/her healthy lifestyle, job done.

Fat bloke/bird goes to the gym, fails the fitness test and a period of compulsorary training 3 times a week ensues. This training continues until fat Bloke/Bird becomes fit Bloke/Bird. Admittedly two things could then hapeen, either a. former fat person sees the benefit of a healthy lifestyle and continues that way, or b. fat person reverts to type, fails next fitness test and then the cycle continues.

Either way, at any given time, the average fitness of the RAF will be higher than it is now. In fact if the number of test were increased to 4 per year this would improve things even further as those at the bottom end of the fitness scale would be on compulsorary PT 3 times a week.

However, remedial PT must be made compulsorary and attendance must be enforced (except were operational circumstances are more important, however, I suggest that on a MOB these are few and far between).

Anyone complaining that they are having to take time out of their working day have the opportunity to get fit and then continue to keep fit in their own time. Any sections who complain that they cannot cope with people being away for compulsorary PT because of increased workload should mark those on compulsorary PT down in their Teamwork score on their annual report, oh sorry, too many people write Fairy Stories instead of accurate reports these days. How many overweight people still get good marks in the Appearance and Bearing box? However, that is another thread....

Bear

[Pontius Navigator]

BB, good theory but don't be blinded by the twice a year test. In conjunction with the bi-annual test will be 3 times per week physical activities too. The test is a mere side show.

[Big Bear]

PN, true, but the thread was originally concerning the bi-annual fitness test. I believe that the 3 times a week PT is still advisorary and I'm sure that it is obvious who are the people who train in their own time and therefore can be excused the advisorary 3 times a week PT. However, if someone was blagging this then all they would have to do is fail one fitness test and hey presto they are no longer excused advisorary PT. As for those who are PT dodgers, they would soon be on compusorary PT anyway.

Bear

[Al R]

Whats wrong with fizz 3 times a week?

Buoy,

The real world isn't like that. It isn't today, it wasn't in 2005 and it wasn't in 1985 either. At least it wasn't on my deployments, but there again, I never had hotels to stay in (not that I'm bitter). But I've been thinking and I can't remember once having to sprint 100 metres and then do 15 press ups whilst out on ops.

And regarding the folk who died while keeping fit, are you suggesting that fatties are statistically medically fitter than physically fit people?

[Hachet Harry]

Didn't we have an identical thread a few months ago on this. That one ran to about seven or eight pages too.

I think that the bottom line is that those that are fat and unfit will always find a good excuse/reason to stay that way and that those that recognise the benefits of a healthy lifestyle will continue to be dismayed by their arguments.

For what it's worth, I believe that personal fitness is a personal responsibility whether you be an airman, private, road sweeper or Mcdonalds worker. It's not just about doing the job, it's also about self respect, dignaty, pride...........

BTW, I'm not a gym queen, I just recognise the benefits of not looking like a space hopper or breathing like a sweating bulldog.

[Maple 01]

I think that the bottom line is that those that are fat and unfit will always find a good excuse/reason to stay that way and that those that recognise the benefits of a healthy lifestyle will continue to be dismayed by their arguments.

And I think that those gym queens will continue to atempt to grab the moral high ground with spurious talk of "operational fitness" and other such tosh. Bottom line (of which gym queens seem to be far to interested) I could run round all day saddled with a GPMG, some the so-called fit racing snakes couldn't - the RAFFT proves nothing beyond the fact that PTIs are scared there jobs may be on the line if their house of cards is pushed too much

[Hachet Harry]

I knew I would regret joining this thread!

Maple: Surely it's not the PTI's that are making the policy, only facilitating it being carried out? In the same way that you can't blame an Adminer if allowances are cut.

Why is it that anyone who promotes a healthy lifestyle must obviously be a gym queen? I think that Hatchet Harriet would quite appreciate it if I went a little more often and carried less of my middle age spread. Not a gym queen, but at the same time, I know where it is!

[Al R]

For what it's worth, I believe that personal fitness is a personal responsibility whether you be an airman, private, road sweeper or Mcdonalds worker. It's not just about doing the job, it's also about self respect, dignaty, pride..

.. the attitude of some of these posts would indicate your plea is falling on deaf ears.

.. spurious talk of "operational fitness" and other such tosh

:oh:

I think that the bottom line is that those that are fat and unfit will always find a good excuse/reason to stay that way and that those that recognise the benefits of a healthy lifestyle will continue to be dismayed by their arguments.

Agreed.

Bottom line.. I could run round all day saddled with a GPMG

Bet you couldn't. ;)

[vecvechookattack]

Are you guys allowed to go to the gym before or after work? The Gym here at culdrose opens at 6am and shuts at midnight so we can use it at anytime during that period.

[Al R]

Well, look at the proposed "recommendation" of 3 x 50 min sessions per week. Now, allow transit to/fro gym & suitable time to shower/change, let's make the maths easy, say 4 hrs a week in total (might be less, might be more, depending on proximity to gym).

This is where the numbers game isn't quite to easy - assume Mon - Fri only & with one hr for lunch, an 8 hr day (I know, I know, laughably under-stated for some sections! :O ) = 40 hrs total work period.

So, the proposal could mean that 10% of productive duty will allocated to gym time..... yeah, right!! :rolleyes:


Am I missing something? Whats so harmful about parading at the gym at 07.20, speed showering and then starting work at say, 0820? I'm sure there's a genuine reason, but for the life of me..

[Al R]

Are you guys allowed to go to the gym before or after work? The Gym here at culdrose opens at 6am and shuts at midnight so we can use it at anytime during that period.


Ramstein, Lackland, Pope and a.n other which I've forgotten had gyms that were open 24/7. They probably still do. What used to bug the hell out of me, was fat Sharon from accounts taking 45 minutes to amble half a mile and civvies being allowed to use the gym at night, as 'associate' members or some such rot. Madness.

[ZH875]

It is amazing how many people take an hour and a half of each day to go to the gym, then get back to the office and take a full dinner hour.

There's keeping fit, and taking the p1ss, and I know what category that daily routine comes under.

Here's hoping that the RAFFT becomes a monthly event.:)

[BEagle]

I recall the wise words of an old RAAF type:

"If yer want to get fit, mate, get yerself a heavier glass"

[Maple 01]

Bet you couldn't.

Bet I did - Taceval anyone?

The RAFFT, for those of you who are too young to remember its introduction, and have subsequently been brainwashed into accepting any old fitness tripe that is trotted out, was meant in the first place to be about 'operational fitness' until someone pointed out that you can't have different levels for different ages/sexes because the enemy will not allow extra time for the girls to do their 1.5 mile run (probably in the direction of away - that was my plan)

So verily those that make the decisions decided it wasn't an operational fitness test as such, just a general test of fitness, but even that looked stupid so we went for some mystical and holistic "lifestyle check" except soft cuddly lifestyle checks don’t normally have Stalinist style clauses where someone’s attitude to them could be commented on in their assessment – I mean no-one ever complained about my attitude to British foreign policy 1983-2000 and that had a bigger effect on my job than whether I liked doing shuttle-runs or not

My understanding was a lot of this was pushed by the PTI branch (whatever that was) and those lost souls who liked the option of 'every man a soldier'. If some other sinister force was behind it I'd like to know

[Pontius Navigator]

Am I missing something? Whats so harmful about parading at the gym at 07.20, speed showering and then starting work at say, 0820? I'm sure there's a genuine reason, but for the life of me..

On an airbase with 2000 personnel, let us assume 1000 are available for your 0720 start time. This is 3000 0720 starts in a week. That is 600 per day, every day. The locker room can handle may be 50 and no lockers. Now, as for showering, ignoring sexes but assuming a one minute shower that is 10 showers per minute starting at 0720, ie before you exercise?

Sorry a 30 minute exercise period so that is now 20 showers per minute. Now let us assume one gallon of hot water per minute per shower.

So we need a bank of 20 showers, the ability to deliver 20 gallons of hot water per minute and 600 gallons in 30 minutes.

For the rest of the day this super facility will be under used.

Now Edward Leigh of the NAO criticised the Army for spending £400k on gym facilities when there are dozens of sub-standard quarters.

So the early morning start is b:mad:s, there is no money to improve the infrastructure.


Tell me I am wrong and it all works. The moment you tell me that it is a personal responsibility, that I can do it at home before I go to work, then it is back to square one because all I have to do then is pass the finest test. As for this twice a year it used to be every quarter. Naturally I just turned up, ran the mile and a half, tick in the box, put up with the stiffness for a day or so, then waited 12 weeks for the next test. What did it prove? That I could run a mile and a half in the stipulated time from cold.

[An Teallach]

Quote:
Bet you couldn't.
Bet I did

Phew, Maple. Being a largish chap I was made the proud owner of a Gimpie for my time at Sandhurst (having routinely broken the Charlie-G like everyone else so they all had to go back to the armoury, sod carrying that thing!). I actually came to prefer my Gimpie, but I was thinking you must be some kind of gym queen if you could still do the biz with a Gimpie all day. I know I couldn't!

[SRENNAPS]

Let’s face it, the Forces managed in World Wars 1 and 2, Korea, Nam, Aden, Falklands, GW1, and several more campaigns not mentioned. For the earlier campaigns they all smoked – how bad is that!!!!!

But quite a lot lived to a ripe old age and many people of recent campaigns will also do the same; despite what they eat, drink and smoke.

There is paranoia about the so called healthy life style from certain individuals. There is so much talk about what to eat, what to drink, how much exercise to do etc, etc, etc.

Are you so arrogant to really believe that mankind has got it so right that with todays belief about healthy living that we are all going to live to 106 years old?????

Why don’t you look at the average age of past famous athletes, footballers and any other sportsmen/women? I think you will find that most died at an average age.

The main reason that people are living longer is because of the medical research in certain areas curing many deceases. If you look at real figures you will see………..!!!!!!????????

Oh bollacks!!!! I have had enough of this…..

What is the point of arguing with some of you brainwashed idiots.

I get so annoyed that some of you paranoid fitness freaks suggest that us older types were not up to the job.

Never forget that people that have fought wars bigger and greater than you will ever do get some what annoyed by some the junk posted here.

For gods sake get a life and start living --- you only get one shot at it.

[Al R]

On an airbase with 2000 personnel, let us assume 1000 are available for your 0720 start time. This is 3000 0720 starts in a week. That is 600 per day, every day. The locker room can handle may be 50 and no lockers. Now, as for showering, ignoring sexes but assuming a one minute shower that is 10 showers per minute starting at 0720, ie before you exercise?

Tell me I am wrong and it all works. The moment you tell me that it is a personal responsibility, that I can do it at home before I go to work, then it is back to square one because all I have to do then is pass the finest test. As for this twice a year it used to be every quarter. Naturally I just turned up, ran the mile and a half, tick in the box, put up with the stiffness for a day or so, then waited 12 weeks for the next test. What did it prove? That I could run a mile and a half in the stipulated time from cold.

Firstly, I have said before that I don't agree with testing, unless you teach.

Back to your premise. Lets assume there is a unit of 2000, which of course, not all are. 4.5% downgraded/sick. 6-11% deployed. 15-25% shift workers. Lets say, for arguements sake, we only have 1600 people to train each week.

Lets imagine too, that the young officers on the unit are actually doing what they're paid for, using their brains and deconflicting, so.. they work out that one third will do fizz in the morning, one third in the middle of the morning, one in the middle of the day, one in the middle of the afternoon and one third before knock off. AND its staggered too, so that not everyone is doing fizz all the time on the same day. Scaleys go home for their shower, singlies have their ensuites.. and there's the gym.

Whatever way you look at it, sure, its a problem to be overcome, but its not an insurmountable problem. Can't the Royal Air Force work out a shower roster nowadays?

[Al R]

Bet I did - Taceval anyone?

The RAFFT, for those of you who are too young to remember its introduction, and have subsequently been brainwashed into accepting any old fitness tripe that is trotted out, was meant in the first place to be about 'operational fitness' until someone pointed out that you can't have different levels for different ages/sexes because the enemy will not allow extra time for the girls to do their 1.5 mile run (probably in the direction of away - that was my plan)

So verily those that make the decisions decided it wasn't an operational fitness test as such, just a general test of fitness, but even that looked stupid so we went for some mystical and holistic "lifestyle check" except soft cuddly lifestyle checks don’t normally have Stalinist style clauses where someone’s attitude to them could be commented on in their assessment – I mean no-one ever complained about my attitude to British foreign policy 1983-2000 and that had a bigger effect on my job than whether I liked doing shuttle-runs or not

My understanding was a lot of this was pushed by the PTI branch (whatever that was) and those lost souls who liked the option of 'every man a soldier'. If some other sinister force was behind it I'd like to know

It was introduced to reflect overall fitness, not 'operational fitness'. That depends on many things other than the ability to do a bleep test. However it has been bastardised is getting off the point. Nammely, that surely it is better to aim for a higher standard that sit around all day trying to justify reasons for wallowing in a lower one?

I have to say, I never ran around all day with a GPMG, and I was a section GiMPY gunner for 198 months. Apart from doing pokey drill with them mind, at Catterick. Now that smarted.

[Al R]

Let’s face it, the Forces managed in World Wars 1 and 2, Korea, Nam, Aden, Falklands, GW1, and several more campaigns not mentioned. For the earlier campaigns they all smoked – how bad is that!!!!!

But quite a lot lived to a ripe old age and many people of recent campaigns will also do the same; despite what they eat, drink and smoke.

There is paranoia about the so called healthy life style from certain individuals. There is so much talk about what to eat, what to drink, how much exercise to do etc, etc, etc.

Are you so arrogant to really believe that mankind has got it so right that with todays belief about healthy living that we are all going to live to 106 years old?????

Why don’t you look at the average age of past famous athletes, footballers and any other sportsmen/women? I think you will find that most died at an average age.

The main reason that people are living longer is because of the medical research in certain areas curing many deceases. If you look at real figures you will see………..!!!!!!????????

Oh bollacks!!!! I have had enough of this…..

What is the point of arguing with some of you brainwashed idiots.

I get so annoyed that some of you paranoid fitness freaks suggest that us older types were not up to the job.

Never forget that people that have fought wars bigger and greater than you will ever do get some what annoyed by some the junk posted here.

For gods sake get a life and start living --- you only get one shot at it.


In World war 1, the men carried 23lbs of kit, today, its closer to 75 lbs if you're lucky. Then, they had next to sod all machinery to operate, today, mens minds have to be sharper for longer, and thats where physical fitness assists accuity which is critical. And no.. they survived.. they didn't manage anything. They were unfit and as ill as hell, and it was only because the enemy was in a similar situation that they got away with it.

If I was still in (and I'm not, so its a moot point) I wouldn't care what mankind did, my objective would be to ensure my men got home in one piece and that things ran as efficiently as possible. And thats where physical fitness can play its part.

I'm far from being a paranoid fitness freak now. Sure, in my early 20s I went for 2 or 3 runs a day, but that soon petered out! BUT.. as a result of being fit, my job was so much easier. I had more confidence to do better things, I could lead by example and I didn't spend ages trying to justify being lazy and unfit in what is supposed to be a fighting service. Aden.. Suez etc.. thats yesterday. This is today, we know more now and there are greater demands. I trust that the newer generation of leaders are not so myopic when it comes to the importance of keeping fit.

[Maple 01]

I was thinking you must be some kind of gym queen if you could still do the biz with a Gimpie all day

Ah! Once more AT outs me, I have to confess the all-day GPMG fest was a while back - on the other hand I can still manage a very reasonable time with heavy shopping from Lidl (how pikey?) And still can run away from 3rd Shock (or who ever the bad guys are now) at twice the rate of a lady half my age - who's fitter? (in a non-sexual sense you pervs)

BUT.. as a result of being fit, my job was so much easier.

Yep, bleep test always sharpened my presentation skills :ugh::ugh:

Aren’t we back to the old “fit to do your job?”

[Pontius Navigator]

using their brains and deconflicting, so.. they work out that one third will do fizz in the morning, one third in the middle of the morning, one in the middle of the day, one in the middle of the afternoon and one third before knock off. AND its staggered too, so that not everyone is doing fizz all the time on the same day. Scaleys go home for their shower, singlies have their ensuites.. and there's the gym.

Whatever way you look at it, sure, its a problem to be overcome, but its not an insurmountable problem. Can't the Royal Air Force work out a shower roster nowadays?

Er Al, it was your 0720 premise that I was shooting at. You seem to have accepted my argument and shot your own full of holes.

Your point about an 0720 start was to avoid the loss of mission productive time. By staging PE during the working day, the only feasible way if it is a duty, must reduce the available mission-orientated workforce. As MJ said, the task must reduce by 3-4 unit working hours per week - about 10% or the manpower must be increased by 11%.

An increase is neither achievable nor policitally acceptable. A reduced task is not politically acceptable therefore we need more physical fitness to ensure we remain supple and flexible as flexibility is th ekey to air power.:}

[Al R]

Maple,

Being fit to do your job isn't black and white. Its a question of how you're able to do your job.. and that'll change from being what you're like on day #1 of an op, to day 30 on month #6. Thats where the benefit of fitness comes in.

[Al R]

Er Al, it was your 0720 premise that I was shooting at. You seem to have accepted my argument and shot your own full of holes.

Your point about an 0720 start was to avoid the loss of mission productive time. By staging PE during the working day, the only feasible way if it is a duty, must reduce the available mission-orientated workforce. As MJ said, the task must reduce by 3-4 unit working hours per week - about 10% or the manpower must be increased by 11%.

An increase is neither achievable nor policitally acceptable. A reduced task is not politically acceptable therefore we need more physical fitness to ensure we remain supple and flexible as flexibility is th ekey to air power.:}

Fine, we've moved the idea forward.. nothing wrong with that, and I'm happy to have my principle adjusted. But it can be done, can't it? Men don't have to use the showers in the gym for instance. I refuse to accept that any flying sqn cannot find 3 hours each week (and even as a Rock, I served on 2 of 'em) for organised fizz. However you allocate that time. I have to say too, I am not too bothered about the 'politically acceptable' side of things. Men join the military because of an ethos. That ethos is only degraded after they have been subject to cynical old sweats. And so the cycle continues.

We digress though. In principle, the idea is right. I imagine that not many young officers and JNCOs will be as archaic as to imagine that what was acceptable in 1980 is no longer the case. As usual, it'll be mainly the old gits whinging in the Mess about change.

Where there's a will, there's a way. ;)

[Maple 01]

If that's so please let me know what punishment and remedial training will be forced on the racing snakes that aren’t up to ops - case in point the thinnies that can't cope with low temps or those who suffer 'sports injuries' that require others to fill their OOA slots

6 month tour - unless the world's gone mad (and I freely accept it as a possibility) the RAF generally does four month tours - therefore I suggest you're not one of HM's chosen people and therefore, like all fish-heads and pongos, not qualified to discus pie-eating limits in the Women's Auxiliary Balloon Corps.

[Al R]

Many of my tours were 6 month jobbers, not all. But I typed '6', because it was my understanding that 6 months was going to be the norm for some for the future.

If skinnies can't handle low temperatures, thats a physiological state of fitness, and not a medical or physical one.. quite different. I was marched smartly to the g'room and locked away for many things.. being thin alas, was not one of them.

As to be not one of the chosen people, well. I was one of those who was creamed off after recruit training and considered suitable for enhanced conditioning. So I was sent off to the Depot at Catterick to do bunny hops around the airfield with a bed pack on my back at half past 4 in the morning, dressed in Number 1's and with best boots on. Thinking back, if they had asked me straight after if I wanted to downgrade to ohhh.. I don't know.. aircrew perhaps, I would probably have wrapped and gone for the easier option. But in those days they allowed you 5 minutes to compose your thoughts before the next beasting, so like an old fool, I stuck at it :ugh:.

[Pontius Navigator]

Fine, we've moved the idea forward.. nothing wrong with that, and I'm happy to have my principle adjusted.

Men don't have to use the showers in the gym for instance.

In principle, the idea is right.

Where there's a will, there's a way. ;)

Men in SLA certainly could use their quarter showers which of course obviates the need for a large changing room, more showers and ideally lockers. It will however add to the time away from work.

Then a proportion, say 5-10% will be female and we have that other oxymoron, female and quick shower.

I agree the principle is right and indeed the Typhoon Sqns have gyms at the sqn I believe which is of course the right way to go - new aircraft, new century, new ideas and new kit.

The bottom line though is that extra 3+ hours. There is only so much face time available in PSF. With JPA more face time would have been available (maybe) except that the staff were cut here.

There are lots of digital posts where a one hour straight absence is not that easy to manage. Once, as well as my day job I lost half my lunch break covering a shift worker. The idea of doing gym in lunch hour appeals to some but our young, and fitter, airmen do need their regular calorie intake.

Something has to give and at least something is the recognition that we can afford to reduce the non-operational task if we want a fitter Air Force.

[Pontius Navigator]

Many of my tours were 6 month jobbers, not all.

As to be not one of the chosen people, well. I was one of those who was creamed off after recruit training and considered suitable for enhanced conditioning. So I was sent off to the Depot at Catterick to do bunny hops around the airfield with a bed pack on my back at half past 4 in the morning, dressed in Number 1's and with best boots on. .

You weren't in Gan were you? I remember, with affection, the Gan Defence Force parading under th emidday sun in their finest - White Ts, navy shorts, black socks, boots and the trusty Lee Enfields. Best kit available.

[Al R]

Pontius,

I've been out for a few years now, and I accept that there's nothing worse than some old giffer like me, gassing on like I do.

But I'd be interested to know what amount of time is spent on non essential stuff. Is EO for instance, still done annually? Ultimately though, you're right.. its all down to supply and demand isn't it? Not enough techies, too much work to be done.

The idea of having a gym at work is a good 'un. If you have say, 10-15 minutes to spare, instead of doing some naff job or sitting on your arse, you go for a quick sesh. Its easy enough to do, strip off your denims and work hard for a bit while you're waiting for something to happen or a jet to come back. I'm sure the health & safety wallahs will say that its not right, but lets face it, no one is going to get reesting and stinking, by bench pressing for 10 minutes or jogging for the same.

The RAF did this well in the 80s. They didn't coral the troops into gyms, instead.. it quietly refurbed lots of them and simply said 'Ok, here they are.. if you want to use 'em, please do so.'. And the intelligent airmen started off by peeking their noses in the door and seeing that it wasn't a cold and damp place with rusty free weights, decided that perhaps here was a place that they could feel at home in after all. And these are the ones who go in lunchtime now. It just needs that right motivation. Putting small gyms on Typhoon sqns could be the next catalyst too. 15 minutes, twice a day. You mark my words, it'll take off. Those who would never in a month of Sundays go to a gym will start missing the endorphins it on their days off, and they'll make that first step into the unit gym. Steps are easy to take (in theory I accept). Stop cars parking at the sqn for say, one day a week, get folk to walk that whopping 400 metres to work from the block.

Any dissenting truculent JTs (or whatever they're called now)? Easy, the Sqn WO can simply get his enforcers to take them behind the gunsheds and give them a damned good thrashing. :ok:

[Al R]

You weren't in Gan were you? I remember, with affection, the Gan Defence Force parading under th emidday sun in their finest - White Ts, navy shorts, black socks, boots and the trusty Lee Enfields. Best kit available.

When I joined up lad, we didn't need 1250s because we both knew each other and Spartan was a rank, not a tank. Etc etc.

Gan alas, was before my time..

[Pontius Navigator]

Al R, I meant to mention a fire section, not far from me, where we had to use their shower while ours was u/s.

You remember all fire sections had a volley ball court?

Well they had one shower. It was an instantaneous one. I used to go in, wet with sweat, and rush around trying to catch the drips. I would come out dryer than I went in!

As for time, a 15-20 minute ride to work followed by a shower and cool off would take about one hour before my temperature recovered such that I was not drenched in sweat before getting dressed.

My Nav studes used to complain bitterly about the one hour gym session before lunch followed by a 3 hour sim session afterwards. They too had not had time to eat nor cool off properly.

Also aircrew are not encouraged to partake strenuous exercise before flight :) Remember the rule, no smoking within 50 feet or the aircraft no exercise within 24 hours of flying :} or something like that.

Seems, bottom line, we agree, and their airships need to recognise that while there may be some slack there is not enough.

[Al R]

I wouldn't dissagree with any of that, not everyone would need a shower after a 15 minute cycle in and not everyone is constrained by the demands of flying though. And whats a student doing.. complaining about.. anything? :eek: ;)

You're right, we do agree about the principle.. it seems it just the fine tuning which needs, erm, fine tuning.

You raise the spectre of another thread mind; sections and the idiosyncrasy thereof. Fire sections had volleyball courts, police flights had goldfish ponds of all things and GEF had lots of pretty flowers. I remember the small pond at Abingdon particularly well. I'm not sure though, that my reply of 'Yes, I like peas and gravy' endeared me to the SIB plod who asked me if I was ready to make a statement. Still, conduct after capture training and all that.

[Pontius Navigator]

And whats a student doing.. complaining about.. anything?

You have been out a long time.

In the modern fluffy cuddly caring air force we take graduates who have been taught to think for themselves and we then ask them for their opinions. :(

I had a Cpl once who said of a proposed course of action that I was taking, "I'm not very happy about that."

I retorted "You are not paid to be happy."

My boss, well he thought he was my boss but we never acknowledged a Spec Aircrew sqn ldr as a boss, called me in an said "I think you were a bit insensitive there and you upset him.":suspect:

[AIDU]

I accept that there's nothing worse than some old giffer like me, gassing on like I do.

How very perceptive of you.

[Al R]

Pontius,

4 years now, or is it 5? My last day in uniform was a very sad one, almost first on scene when a T Bird crashed on take off at Wittering, with an aviator (does the RN have the same idea as the USN?) called Jack London died.

What did that Cpl say after he regained consiousness in the Medical Centre? I watched the West Wing last night, and chuckled at the line 'Don't forget.. you know nothing, and I know everything'. 'Yes Mr President'.

Nice chatting with you.

[rafmatt]

I think its a great idea and about chuffing time. I reckon it should be every month. because i cant stand these fat over weight desk pilots
who actually moan about doing fitness tests.
Its going to be twice a year. That works out to be an hour a year doing sit ups, press ups and shuttle runs. Hardly back breaking!
if you don't like it tough! your in the military you knew what you were letting yourself in for when you signed up.

so man up stop being a bunch of tarts and get on with it!

rant over

And before you ask im a Painter. so dont start with me about manning issues! and getting time of work. My section went fom 25 people to 4 in a space of a year!

[akula]

The fumes must be strong in the paint bay:}:}:}

[Pontius Navigator]

Can you still get your shoe caps painted there?:}

[rafmatt]

yeah £4 a pair but not for long

[L1A2 discharged]

And before you ask im a Painter. so dont start with me about manning issues! and getting time of work. My section went fom 25 people to 4 in a space of a year!

So you, and the remainder of your 'trade' will soon be a footnote in the brief history of the RAF, bye bye.:ok:

[Maple 01]

if you don't like it tough! your in the military you knew what you were letting yourself in for when you signed up.

Do much man-management in the paint bay? There was no fitness test back when many of us joined - try changing terms and conditions in the civilian world mid-contract and see how far you get!

[Al R]

Do much man-management in the paint bay? There was no fitness test back when many of us joined - try changing terms and conditions in the civilian world mid-contract and see how far you get!

Ehh, the old days eh? Trouble coping with change?

In civvy street, if you don't like it, you can always leave.. in fact, thinking about it, no.. this is how it works in civvy street. You'd all be issued with a statuatory redundancy notice and then you'd all be invited to apply for your jobs back at less money. :ugh:

[Maple 01]

Ehh, the old days eh? Trouble coping with change?

Which is always the cop-out of those who love change for change's sake no matter how badly thought-out, usually young "thrusters" that haven't been around long enough to spot that the pattern on change is cyclical - this year's bright new idea will fade and die, only to reappear in a while, sanded down, re-modeled and re-launched with a phalanx of disciples that don't or won't notice its all been done before. More worrying IMO are those careerists implementing unworkable changes that are frequently irreversible, not because they genuinely feel it will have a positive outcome, just to make a name for themselves, who promptly bu@@er off having turned the place up side down, got them selves noticed and promoted leaving someone else to pick up the pieces. How many CBFFIs have played that game for example?

We trained hard but it seemed that every time we were beginning to form into teams we would be re-organized. I was keen to learn later in life that we tend to meet any new situation by re-organizing, and a wonderful method it can be for creating the illusion of progress while producing confusion, inefficiency and demoralization.
- Gaius Petronius (AD 66)

Change by all means if there is a point, not just for its own sake
Operational fitness test anyone?

[Al R]

Maple 01 says: I could run round all day saddled with a GPMG, some the so-called fit racing snakes couldn't

Maple 01 says: Case in point, young Maple pre Nazi fitness test, lugs LMG around like a good-un during tacevals,

Aaaah, 'change' isn't that hard to cope with then ;). Although your generalisation about 'the so-called fit racing snakes' made me chuckle when I came across this from a while back..

Maple 01 says: .. woopie doo, spot the sweeping generalisation - Ever been on real ops where the choice is compo or compo?

Aaaah, real ops..

Anyway. I digress. Can you also confirm that you never took advantage of any nasty education opportunities offered by the RAF as that too, might have impacted on your absence from 'the mission'? Or was your mission analysis somewhat more selective then I wonder, when you were ordered to get down the gym compared to when you were offered say, the chance of maximising your potential income in civvy street..?;)

Maple 01 says: .. it's bombs on target against all the odds, it's about keeping the a/c serviceable by whatever means - our sole purpose is to generate air power anything else is ancillary

[buoy15]

I know a QFI who, in the early days, had a "7" for sport on his ACR
At his de-brief he mentioned that he didn't do any sports
His RO said " Yes, I know, so I can rely on you to be here on Monday morning to complete the FlyPro without a broken leg, twisted ankle or dislocated shoulder"
Fit for the job - nuff said!:)

[Maple 01]

Well you've learned to use the search function AL I'll give you that, though how that advances your argument I don't know.

Play the ball, not the man old chap

I say, you're not a PTI or Rockape are you?;)

[Al R]

Maple,

Sorry, but I thought that a 'Tac Int' bloke would have appreciated the adage, 'Time spent in recconaisance is seldom wasted'. And if I've spelt that long word wrong, feel free to offer the rejoinder, 'money spent on a dictionary is well spent' too. I wasn't stalking, I spent a few days going back through some old posts. There are some good reads to be had, and yes.. I know I should get out more.

How does it advance the arguement? Simple. With the greatest of respect (and with a light keyboard), I have read many posts from you complaining about keeping PTIs in jobs, but I haven't found many complaining about keeping education officers in jobs, when we should be 'dropping bombs'. I don't think thats playing the man; I'd just be interested to see how you justify a military paying you to spend time away from 'generating air power' in the classroom but not in the gym, thats all. :)

[Al R]

His RO said " Yes, I know, so I can rely on you to be here on Monday morning to complete the FlyPro without a broken leg, twisted ankle or dislocated shoulder" Fit for the job - nuff said!

.. because his RO was happy to endorse like minded people and didn't understand the difference between reflection and observation? Because (and whilst we're at it) he was unable to understand the differences between medical and physical fitness? Because, as you admit, that was in 'the early days'? Then I suppose, all we did was baton down the hatches at Wildenrath and wait.. and I'm sure too, that deep down you can see that fitness plays a part in how effectively one carries out one's job. :)

[Finger Poking]

Questions.... ANSWER at the end:-

Will Pers Admin staff cock less pay up because they did circuits at dinner?

Will a Sootie diagnose an engine fault quicker because he was up at 7 running?

Will a Dog F**ker Change a battery quicker thanks to hours on the rowing machine?

Will a Chef make a tastier Cottage Pie because he has was playing 5 a Side last night?

The answer to all these..... is NO.

It is nothing short of performance indicators, forcing more staff to be absent from the coal face for longer periods at a time when we are over stretched and under manned / funded.

Those who claim that we should do EXTRA Phys outside of working hours, what tripe you rattle. Would a postman or Milkman deliver outside of what they are paid to do? No. If we are to be fitter, the time must be allowing but that time is something most are very short of.

The current levels are adequate and personnel do not routinely have to be sent home from Theatre due to bad health/fitness or lack of prior training.

This is nothing short of an increase in burden, without substantial reason, which will cause a detrimental disruption to the working environment.

Thats before I get on to the fact that the fitness levels are not only SEXIST but AGEIST.

[Al R]

outside of working hours, :ooh::ooh::ooh: :oh::oh::oh:

Let me put the same questions to you then..

Will Pers Admin staff cock less pay up because they did day release at the local college?

Will a Sootie diagnose an engine fault quicker because he was away for 2 weeks at OU summer school?

Will a Dog F**ker Change a battery quicker thanks to hours on the internet researching for GCSEs?

Will a Chef make a tastier Cottage Pie because he has was spending time away with his Training and Development Co Ordinator?

The answer to all these..... is << insert your answer here>>.

.. the fitness levels are not only SEXIST but AGEIST.

Perhaps we could enlist airmen with the sole purpose of carrying heavy kit for old people? 'Jenkins, Look! Over there.. there's a suicide bomber!! Quickly dammit, sprint over to that sanger, select single shot and pop a few rounds at him for me would you, I'm too old to do it myself and I'm feeling a bit pooped (Now than, wheres my pay cheque gone..?)'.

[SRENNAPS]

Al R

Contrary to a modern belief by young people today, you will also get old one day despite a healthy style and the amount of fitness training you do. Also as you get older and wiser you learn to have a more balanced approach to life. You learn not to react to paranoia in the same way. I do hope you acquire these qualities one day. Otherwise the young lads and lasses that look up to you will be in big trouble.

Oh and by the way, I know plenty of “'Jenkins” that have seen your type in to the ground.

And finally what other contributions have you given to the armed forces. Are you part of the community, do you mix with your troops, do you participate in “TEAM” sports and socialise with fellow members when the occasion arises. I would be surprised if you truly did?

[Maple 01]

Um......the RAF paid for most of my OU degree soz I woz mor edumakted an a beta ana....anna....anly....thinker.

Better training return than star jumps!

[Al R]

Al R

Contrary to a modern belief by young people today, you will also get old one day despite a healthy style and the amount of fitness training you do. Also as you get older and wiser you learn to have a more balanced approach to life. You learn not to react to paranoia in the same way. I do hope you acquire these qualities one day. Otherwise the young lads and lasses that look up to you will be in big trouble.

Oh and by the way, I know plenty of “'Jenkins” that have seen your type in to the ground.

And finally what other contributions have you given to the armed forces. Are you part of the community, do you mix with your troops, do you participate in “TEAM” sports and socialise with fellow members when the occasion arises. I would be surprised if you truly did?


I don't know quite what to say to that.. I would say though, never ask a question (especially on a messageboard) that you don't know the answer to. ;)

[Al R]

Maple 01 said;

Um......the RAF paid for most of my OU degree soz I woz mor edumakted an a beta ana....anna....anly....thinker. Better training return than star jumps!

So, you don't mind the principle of spending time away from work? Which is unfortunate, because you seem to have based most of your lambasting of the fizz test on it.

Maple 01 also once said;

When is the manpower going to be upped to allow for all this "essential phys?" never, because its not that important - manning figures take into account only minimum manning levels, no slack for sports nuts. - why should the rest of an over worked shift cover your desire to play sport or hang out down the gym with like-minded chaps?


Maple 01 could just have easily said;

When is the manpower going to be upped to allow for all this "essential education?" never, because its not that important - manning figures take into account only minimum manning levels, no slack for academic nuts. - why should the rest of an over worked shift cover your desire to educate yourself or hang out down the university library with like-minded chaps?

.. but somehow, I doubt it. ;)

[SRENNAPS]

AL R,

Sorry to be so abusive (and yes Heliport I am am in a bad mood tonight because of the performance of the welsh team) but AL R... you are a sad man.

Did you watch any rugby or any other sport today or have you just monitored prune all day (20 posts since 0015 hrs last night is not good for your health you know!!)

[Al R]

I'm not sure what the form is here but I won't be responding to that, other than to say I've been working in the garden all day and the computer is by my French windows. I hope that meets with your approval. :)

[Maple 01]

So, you don't mind the principle of spending time away from work? Which is unfortunate, because you seem to have based most of your lambasting of the fizz test on it.

I dun it ol in me own tim m8, woz to buzy wokin knights 'n stuf - so u iz rong agn

u aint "Penguin Sucks" from the other place are you? ;)

[toddbabe]

This fit for task or fit for job, excuse that people keep spewing out is tiresome!
What trades in the RAF apart from the obvious rock apes and Pti's actually require you to be particularly fit? Does a stacker need to be fitter than a Pers admin? does a Pilot need to be fitter than a techie?
The answer is No almost all the jobs in the service could be completed by either fatties or fitties and in fact are! I have seen a few fat rocks and pti's as well by the way!
So just because you can complete an OOA tour and still be sixteen stone doesen't mean it's Ok and that your are "fit for task"
There is no way currently of testing differently for different trades and therefore we all have to pass the same test.
The powers that be have quite rightly decided through evidence that the Service (and society) is generally an unfit one and that personnel as well as the Service would greatly benefit from being fitter.
It is upto the Service now to implement the changes to achieve this and with the introduction of PTL's, compulsary PT and higher level, more frequent testing they have already started.

[SRENNAPS]

AL R

That certainly meets with my approval. I love my garden and work bloody hard in it (beats the gym any day and I get to look at a lot of decent birds).

toddbabe

So you would like to turn the entire air force into brainless robocops.
The "powers that be" are generally a lot more un-fitter than their troops. (and that includes society)

Their aim is to save money and be politically correct.

But I am sure they can rely on people like you to put the message forward.

[Maple 01]

So by your own admition the RAFFT is not about being fit to do your job, so therefore, logically, it's an irrelevance to the RAFs sole purpose for existence - the provision of airpower (AP3000 refers - copies of which are unlikely to be found in the gym)

The powers that be have quite rightly decided through evidence that the Service (and society) is generally an unfit one and that personnel as well as the Service would greatly benefit from being fitter.

Hmmm compulsory irrelevant to task social engineering - goodo, seem to remember the last chap to try that was an Austrian Painter

[Al R]

I dun it ol in me own tim m8, woz to buzy wokin knights 'n stuf - so u iz rong agn

u aint "Penguin Sucks" from the other place are you?

Ok, you can calm down on the juvenile prose now. Its hard enough for the best writers to do it, and you don't want to over egg the pudding. Less is more.

Well done though, for getting an OU degree, and if you managed to do it without impacting at all on the rest of your section, especially well done! I won't ask why an OU degree is needed to deliver 20 minute pre deployment briefs or to put bodge tape on maps mind, and we'll have to agree to dissagree on the need to have a fit military.

Cheers. Thanks for taking the time to respond.

SRENNAPS,

Don't tell anyone, but I camp out in it on occasion.. :eek:. My garden is the old village veggie allotment, and 20 years on, the ground is still settling. It does mean that I can't get that smart ATCO stripe finish with a cylinder mower, but to make up for it, I have managed to paint some edging boulders white.

[toddbabe]

Why are you people burying your heads in the sand? "Turning people into robots" aircrew are tested all the time, ground checks, standards unit checks, Sqn training checks, Flight checks, sim checks, medical checks etc etc, you name it Aircrew do it, yet as soon as you mention fitness checks!!!!
It is a Scientifically proven FACT that the fitter you are the better you will perform both physically and mentally, you WILL be ill less and WILLl be less of a burden to your bosses, the benefits of being fit and healthy are enormous to yourself and your workplace.
People don't like doing it cos it requires a bit of hard work!
Boo fecking hoo.

[SRENNAPS]

Toddbabe

Do me a favour please could you show me these “Scientifically proven FACTs”.


Please provide some websites or even some books which show some real statistics and not BBC and Sun headline news.

[Al R]

Theres 11,600,000 hits on 'benefits of being fit'. Take your pick? ;)

http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=benefits+of+being+fit&meta=

[rafmatt]

I can't belive what i am reading on some of these posts.
people actually moaning about being fit.

To be honest im not the most athletic of people but i still pass my fitness test and to be honest it is not hard! It is the basic level of fitness that is required of you.

Yeah you may not be a rock or pti and may spend most of your career flying a desk or stacking shelves or filling out admin in a office. BUT that does not mean that you may not be posted to iraq or afgan on other duties that require a bit of basic fitness.

At the end of the day it boils down to one thing being too lazy to put the effort in. And dont use age or sex as an excuse it is not that harder of a test. your to bloody lazy to do it and prepare yourselfs for it.

im sure if you have got time to be posting on pprune you have time to do a bit of fitness now and then!

The last i looked and im sure many people on here are you are in the MILITARY start acting like you are you bunch of pansies!:ugh::ugh::ugh: :ok:

[insty66]

If we require someone to fly aircraft.........we train them
If we require someone to mend aircraft ....we train them
If we require someone to supply us..........we train them
If we require somone to feed us...............we train them( honestly);)
etc etc etc...........
Yet if we require people to reach a certain level of fitness..:ugh:
I'm not arguing the benefits of being fit or slim (think of the savings in uniform material:E) but if it is a requirement of the job then shouldn't we be given proper training from qualified individuals? (not sqn jockstraps after a high profile additional duty).
I understand the need but don't understand why the service is reluctant to provide the training that will help us all achieve what it wants from us.

[blogger]

The fittness test is a joke, run up and down, 8 press ups 24 sit ups to be done once a year.

I have not done it for years and years does it affect my job?.........no...... does it effect my F6000........no....... Do the Gym staff chase you to do it?.......no.......does my boss?.......no.......does JPA tell me to do it?........no.........does JPA know I have not done it?............no........Does anyone really care?..........no.......:D

Will I be doing it?............no.......... BECAUSE IT'S A PATHETIC LITTLE TEST AND NO ONE CARES.

Have I been to the gym in the last 5 years..........no...... you do not require to go to a gym to be fit. Walk the dog, dig the garden, keep active, watch what I eat and dont smoke.

Do I chase the troops to do it........no.......rather they got on with their day job first.

RAF FITNESS TEST A PATHETIC LITTLE TEST AND NO ONE CARES.:ok:

[Al R]

And to think that some folk in the military on active service in Afghanistan actually have the cheek to voice concerns about the attitude of some in today's RAF??!! They should read this thread I tell you!! That would set their minds at rest.

Perhaps we need to concentrate on getting leaders through Cranwell, and not glorified supervisors?

[rafmatt]

blogger do you do ccs? and if i can asked what trade are you in the RAF. and if its pathetic why dont you do it?

[rafmatt]

blogger if you are in charge of troops
i think you are setting a poor example to the men/women you are leading. those test are there for a reason to prepare you for what may come your way. OOA operations! or do you get yourself out of those too :ok:

[blogger]

I called it Pathetic because it's so simple to do.

8 press ups come on I would have to gain 20 stone to stop me doing 8 press ups. As for the run and the sit ups they are no real measure of fittness are they. The whole thing take less than 10/15 minutes to do. And only once a year.:O Some test.

When someone says 'Hey Bloggs' get down the gym and do your fitness test i'll go and do it but until then I have a day job to do.

If I thought I was unfit or overweight then I sort it but I do not require a gym to do that.

Having never failed the test and... Once just having my card stamped for turning up. (PTI wanted to get off home.) another time we ran 4 or 5 lenghts and the PTI turned off the bleep tape and said thats fine..stamp on the card off we the trot. I cant see the point ...yes pathetic isn't it. Come on if that is happening to me how many others out there just get their card stamped for tunning up?:rolleyes:

As for the trade ...trade group 2........but not for much longer....

[Al R]

It seems that we are in agreement then Bloggers. The tests need to be meaningful and worthwhile.

[blogger]

blogger if you are in charge of troops
i think you are setting a poor example to the men/women you are leading. those test are there for a reason to prepare you for what may come your way. OOA operations! or do you get yourself out of those too :ok:


Oh come on 10/15 minute test once a year is preparing us for OOA op's........... :ugh:

What happened to the climatic hardening we once were meant to do? Going down the gym to heat up our bodies? ......... scrapped that is what.....

[blogger]

AL R

Spot on

Exactly......... make it worth while and meaningfull....time to do it. etc etc

Progressive improvement to benifit the RAF and the individual.....and some feedback to the individual....... pay promotion etc.

As for going down the gym in lunch hour....... rather eat my lunch thanks.

[blogger]

Best measure of real fittnes is your recovery time after exercise, how quick do you recover to start over again.

2 guys one very fit one not both run a mile in 7 minutes (so both pass the test....simple) however which one can run the next mile soonest?



The RAF fittness test.... tests you once a year and then you have 365 days to recover.:ok:

[blogger]

Well that killed that thread.

The RAF has has no fittness measure and thats a fact. If you fail the pathetic test don't worry they can't afford to kick you out as we are short of troops. I was out in the sand pit lad working for me had not passed his test in 5 years still employed, still paid, even got his tapes!

So back to the point I am a bad leader because I do not do 10/15 minutes in the gym once a year........ bollox........ and I have guys asking for a day off or even a week off to go fishing as it is an RAF sport........ come on......... What next day off to go bird watching!!!!!!!!!..

Sport in the RAF is just time off that means more work for the real troops... OH AND BOSS ON MY 6000 I DO SPORT SO MARK ME UP......no in my books you waste time and make others work harder get back to work.

Your only secondary duty is the ~RAF~ your primary duty is your wife/husband and your children. Try putting that on your 6000 I did. :ok:

Sorry but after 25 years I have lost the plot the direction pointer for the RAF has been broken for many years and requires more than my C/T input to mend it, thats why I speak my mind and I don't care if I upset my boss because it's my job is to kick the sh!t back up th chain not feed it down the chain. Once more folks adopt this principle we may see change for the better.

Shame we only kick off in our last dying days not from day one.:ugh:

[samuraimatt]

come on......... What next day off to go bird watching!!!!!!!!!..

Funny you should mention that. Any chance of a day off?...........tweet tweet (http://www.rafos.org.uk/index.htm)

[snowball1]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/tayside_and_central/6931971.stm

Maybe we should have guys like him in the RAF, instead of the loosers who complain about a little bit of pt!

[samuraimatt]

The RAF did.............Douglas Bader. Unfortunately for him the RAF invalided him out.

[Maple 01]

he couldn't pass the fitness test.....

[toddbabe]

Blogger I couldn't agree more about you pushing **** up the line instead of down it and you speaking your mind:D
However by not giving a toss about your subordinates fitness tests or your own and by thinking it will make no difference is irresponsible and wrong! you are disadvantaging them for promotion or progression, whilst I agree with you that in the past the Fitness has been just a Stat that nobody gave much credence to, that however is changing and there is supposed to be a much harder stance with regards to fitness coming in with real penalties.
The first person who repeatedly failed their test has been kicked out and they won't be the last.
You shouldn't put down people who do representative sport either, yes it causes you more work finding replacements and his/her peers have to fill in but almost always Spotsmen have to put in a lot of their own time and effort to attain a standard that gets them picked for Teams, it is this time and effort that you should be recognising not the week off for the competition!!!!

[VinRouge]

The person they kicked out was in a staff job. Lets see them try and throw aircrew/JNCO SNCO engineers out with massive shortages in the pipeline. As I have said before, this will last 6 months, then we will go back to the old standards as they wont be able to lose that many people. Oh, that and the flood of court actions from unfair dismissal and changed T&C's will be the big on I guess. :eek:

[toddbabe]

This crap about terms and conditions and contracts! when you join up it doesn't say anything about staying in tents for six months of the year or having to do compulsory drugs testing or IRT or CAT checks, this mythical "contract" doesn't exist that will be the fatties saviour! it's the military you do as you are told:mad:

[toddbabe]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQC9pcnHtvg
I'ts so beautiful I could watch it all day if I din't have some work to do!
Cheating feckers though!!!

[Chicken Leg]

Al R, Todbabe, Snowball and others,
A few things that I've learnt by following these forums is that an awful lot of RAF peeps not only like being fat, but will make the most incredible arguments to stay that way.
'Not in the contract, I new a fit bloke once who.........., time away from the proper job etc, etc. The last one's my favourite. At our place, every Friday morning two groundies stand in the tea room and cook bacon butties for the rest of the chaps, then as often as not, the place is deserted in the afternoon (and that's after being Leaned!). Quite right too I say, but the fatties can't then argue that nothing should take them away from their prime reason for being here.

The main pretagonists of the fat is good argument seem to be Samuraimatt, SRENNAPS, and Maple01. Between them they have contributed 1300 posts on this forum. Wonder how many 15 minute phys sessions you could get out of that!

Doh, is that the time? Best be off to the Monday lunchtime circuits sess!

[VinRouge]

The difference between IRT, CCS living in tents (which I have done 8 months of in the past 20 btw) is its essential... the fitness test is something that those with a loose grip on reality seem to think is important when actually, its a massive waste of time (2 days off flying for a start, according to JSP550 which states you are not supposed to fly after exercising)

Increasing levels on the bleep test and doing it twice a year is a complete waste of my bloody time. Tell me this, if I can do my job last year with fitness levels as they were, working 14 hour crew duty days for ten days straight, on a flight deck that is 65 Celcius, why the hell should I face being chucked out for doing my job, as told, so some F*cking numpty in a PT outfit can tell me "oh you are in the military, do what you are told" perhaps if we questioned from time to time bland, rediculous instruction from above we wouldnt have such a shocking erosion of our small number of perks? I was always told to think for myself, and as I have said for the third time now, this scheme will last SIX MONTHS MAX, before we end up with what we had before. At what cost? annoying a hard-working bunch of very experienced individuals who we can ill-afford to lose, just to placeate the body-beautiful brigade and the PTI's who are chiseling extra workload for all of us to do, to justify their ever-decreasing significance in our armed forces.

The day I come close to not being able to do my primary job (including running away from a burning wreckage in a hurry with my kit) will be the day I accept you are right, however, I know my fitness is up to scratch, I dont need to be told it by some PTI thats concerned that their trade is next up for the chop!

Oh, you can whine on about us not having a contract, but you are wrong. We have employment law, which before I would have agreed with you would be nonsensical to use in the military. But seeing as I now have a lower standard of living to many now in civy street, a military covenant lying in tatters, talk of increased FMQ rent to shift me out, PAYD, talk of paying for food whilst on det, I think I am less concerned about screwing the MOD over at every opportunity I get!

[An Teallach]

We have employment law

And the military is exempt from the great majority of it.

[Al R]

I was always told to think for myself, I know my fitness is up to scratch, I dont need to be told it by some PTI thats concerned that their trade is next up for the chop!

Aside from the fact that its not your decision to make, I thought Wellington expressed the sentiment far better.

He wrote..

"We have enumerated our saddles, bridles, tem=nts and tent poles. and all manner of sundry items for which His Majesty's government holds me accountable.. Unfortunately, the sum of one shilling and ninepence remains unnaccounted for in one infantry battalion's petty cash and there has been a hideous confusion as to the number of jars of raspberry jam issued to one cavalry regiment. This brings me to my present purpose, which is to request elucidation of my instructions. Am I 1) to train an army of uniformed British clerks for the benefit of the accountant and copy boys in London, or, perchance, 2) to see to it that the forces of Napoleon are driven out of Spain?"

But there again, he did have something worthwhile to whinge about..

[fawkes]

The Iron Duke was an intensely practical man: he would not have wasted time with fitness tests, but he did punish severely anyone who fell behind or failed in their duty.

The nub of the fitty/fatty debate has nothing to do with effectiveness. Like the Carbon Footprint con, it is based on unsound science and has become a substitute for the concepts of sin and redemption. The fatties object ony to the smug holier than thou attitude of the fitties. The equivalent howls from the fitties would ensue were there to be compulsory Crosswords or Sudoku.

Procurement is based on an agreed Requirement; Training is based on an assessed need. If these are arbitrary, so be it. Something meets the standard/requirement or it doesn't. Retesting is in a risk assessed basis. One would like a parachute to deploy reliably every time: test it often please. How much faster Smith runs than the minimum standard is irrelevant: test it if you must, but don't waste resources.

[AIDU]

to see to it that the forces of Napoleon are driven out of Spain?

Alr not sure what the hell you are on about:confused: but are we going to war against the French in Spain? When did they invade? Alr you need to get out into your garden a bit more. Move away from the french doors...................

[Bob the Doc]

I live 30 miles from my nearest Service unit (on Medical External Trg in the NHS) and about 120 miles from my Parent Unit (who would administer my RAFFT). To attend a RAFFT would therefore require me to take one day off, not 30 minutes. My current rota is about 50 hours a week with barely enough slack for Annual Leave, let alone AT/CCS/IDT/IRT. Just when am I supposed to do my annual test, let alone a biannual one?

I appreciate I am in a minority but it's not that small

PS...I swim twice a week and do squash once a week if I am not on call.

[cockneyrock]

2 days off flying for a start, according to JSP550 which states you are not supposed to fly after exercising
I don't think JSP550 does say that does it?
I think you'll find it says that:
All aircrew are to be physically and mentally fit to carry out their duties as authorized.
and
Aircrew are not to fly as crew members for at least 48 hours following a general, spinal or epidural anaesthetic, or for 12 hours after a local or regional dental anaesthetic. This period may be extended at the discretion of the MO or Dental Officer
the nearest you'll get to exercise is:
Personnel are not to fly or undergo low-pressure chamber experience:
a. Within 12 hours of swimming using compressed-air breathing apparatus aqualung equipment...
Lets stick to the facts rather than posting hysterical rants based on something "you heard":rolleyes:
(I do reserve the right to be corrected:ok:)

[Al R]

"If in doubt, recce out.."

;)

[toddbabe]

Bob the doc I sure that you could organise your fitness test with the nearest mil establishment, a couple of phone calls should suffice to have it organised!
Vin rouge, YOU say that ccs is essential and the fitness test isn't.
Well you ain't in charge and those that are have assesed the general fitness of the service and have rightly decided that a fitter Service IS ESSENTIAL! I have yet to use any of the skills taught to me on CCS on any of the many OOA ops that I have done!
I am not saying that we should scrap CCS by the way but Have spent a lot more time doing it and IRT than I have compulsary PT! We are talking about 30 mins twice a year Get a feckin grip, and don't tell me that we don't get trained for the tests, train in your own time if you have to! the levels on the tests would only be failed by those who are really unfit, a couple of moderate exercise sesions a week would me more than enough to get almost everyone a pass.
I don't get specfic time in my working week to study for my cat checks or for a standards check and have to occasionaly do some work in my own time, phys should be no different.

What makes you people think that the RAF can't demand a certain level of fitness? show me some evidence please!
When you went through IOT or Nca training or Halton or Swinderby did you do a lot of Phys? A. Yes. did you get tested over the mile and a half and or bleep test? A. yes Nothing much has changed except in the intervening years a lot of people have become lazy and somehow now believe that they are excempt!!!!!:ugh:
Dream on and keep looking for that mythical legal document or contract .

[fawkes]

Might one respectfully suggest that you might with advantage replace one of your weekly physical training sessions with remedial English? You could even try a spillchucker (sic).

[cornish-stormrider]

Strewth, a comment from tooodbabby that almost makes sense.

1. lazy fat pie eating bloaters exist.
2. so do racing snakes that have more time off sick than fat boys.
3. If oh lets say you were OOA in the stan and had to do a lot of running away then a sexist ageist subjective RAFFT is not a lot of help.
4. almost all troops would respond better to an incentive for fitness rather than making it another ballache.
5. training and investment in the troops will pay off not another hoop jumping exercise.
:E:E

[ZH875]

I have yet to use any of the skills taught to me on CCS on any of the many OOA ops that I have done!

I have never used any of the 'fitness' stuff 'used' for RAFFT, in fact, my last OOA tour was in a period when I was medically exempt the RAFFT, but I still went and did the job, so what proof is there that the RAFFT is required at all?

When you went through IOT or Nca training or Halton or Swinderby did you get tested over the mile and a half and or bleep test? A.

Err, actually NO, fortunately when I joined, we had an air force and didn't need to justify PTI's jobs.

And just to get you going even more, toddbabe, my off duty time is exactly that, MINE, and I am not going to do a 50 mile round trip to visit the gym, when I can walk the 500 yards to the local pub. These days when the service no longer looks after its troops, I am 'looking after' myself.

Needless to say, I failed the last FT due to the same reason I failed in '97, '98, '99, '00, '01, '02, '03, '05, and '06, but I would have loved for them to 'throw me out' as they caused the injury in the first place. (passed in '04 on the sharp pen of the PTI).

And finally, like many of the rotund people, and unlike the racing snakes, skiers, footballers and participants in the peanut hugging game, I have never had a day off sick in over 25 years, so please don't keep harping on about 'being fit is better for you and the RAF as you can work for longer' because it just ain't true.

So let's hear you whinge even more about us whingers.:)