It doesn't get much better than this

[Amateur Aviator]

Hi everyone,

Its been a bit of time, I know, but as I've had all of 10 weeks away from the sandpit, there hasn't been too much to comment on. But here I am, back again, living the life of an SH mate in the hottest place on earth. Are you sitting comfortably? If not, prepare yourself by having a seat.

**RANT ON**

I know that I have seen a load of changes out here in the Middle Eastern sandpit since summer '05. Some of them have been great to see, some haven't. I'm sure you can understand why I can't go into too much detail, otherwise instead of men in suits and black Omegas coming to knock on the door, the RMPs will come round in their really shiny, new, top-of-the-range Land Rover LR-somethings. There is no bitterness here at all, especially as we are stuck with the good old fashioned relics last used in the Balkans. Goodness only knows why they need the best vehicles in the fleet. I look forward to a response from the Redcaps, if they can manage one.

But I digress.

What was I on about? Changes. That's it.

Here's the deal. We are now banned from wearing civvies, unless you are inside your block/domestic area, or going to and from the gym. So for all meals, chilling out in ECHOS, going to the phone, using 'tinters, going to the bar- in essense, lock, stock, the firkin' lot, you wear full uniform.
Now that's a sh1t sandwich if ever I have seen one.
The reasoning behind it? Those who go out on the ground, might see off duty chaps and chapesses going out to relax and wind down, all dressed up to the nines (or eights, depending on who you are). Someone, somewhere, has decreed that it is bad for the morale of those going out on the ground. Well, I'm sorry, but where do they think those off duty are going to go? The cinema? Bowling? What about going to the water park? Clubbing? My f***ing ARSE they are! They are going to watch Maria Sharapova, Roger Federa (I had to put that in for the equal oportunities police) and other such beauties play at Wimbledon. They are going to play chess, poker or backgammon. Maybe they are going to have a milkshake or a cuppa with a few mates after a long day at work. Or maybe they just want to spend a bit of time out of uniform. Admittedly, we could all go to supply/stores, and get a pair on finest issue shorts and pair of desert sandals and wear those instead. Could you imagine that? I certainly can't. What I can imagine though, is the RSM's face when he sees us all in that rig. It would almost be a Mastercard moment!

But that isn't quite the worst part. Apparently 903 EAW have NOT signed up to this ruling. Why can't we be a part of the proper RAF again? Bring back Strike Command. Bring back all the commands. We wear RAF uniforms and RAF rank. We work at RAF stations. We fly RAF, not Army helicopters. It's about time that someone sticks up for us.

I, and lot of others, spend far too much time out here, doing our job to the best of our abilities. Is the end in sight? A very good question, one that sits way above my pay scale. I just do what I'm told (most of the time). But what do we want when we're here? Not much really. Here's a selection: a place to eat; a place to sleep, even during the day; but importantly, the option to be able to to step back from the job that we do. It can be mundane stuff, it can be scary as hell. But when it's over, you generally want to be able to kick back and realx, and dare I day it, almost forget that you are in the hottest place on earth, surrounded by a load of people who don't want you there either.

Oh, there goes the tannoy. 'MORALE, MORALE, MORALE. THERE HAS BEEN AN OUTBREAK OF MORALE. ALL MORALE CREATING ACTIVITIES ARE TO STOP WITH IMMEDIATE EFFECT. END OF BROADCAST.'

**RANT OFF**

There are always 2 sides to every story. People have attempted to shoot my arguments and opinions down before, but in my eyes, with little success. I'll guess I see what happens now.

AA

[London Mil]

I presume you were wearing your uniform when you typed that? ;)

Jesting aside, my vote is for anything that brings quality of life, no matter how small.

[effects]

GW2 at Ali Al, As hostilities started the JHC det had their Sat phones taken away, the Tonka det and the HQ either side of our location kept their phones!

[Mr-AEO]

Having been in the sandpit myself for months on end, I am afraid that I don't agree totally with your post.

We had no need for civvies, or any with us if we'd needed them anyhow. We neither had a wish to wear them or were ordered not too, just in case someone had smuggled some devils-cloth to the sandy places we were operating out of. At the end of the day, if all you have to worry about is what kind of clothes you are wearing, me thinks you have lost some sense of perspective.

PS - My grandad was in Queens Royal Lancers in WW2 and spent most of his war in Africa. He had to wash his clothes in petrol, because there was more of that than water. Imagine how pished off he would have been, had he needed to wash his cK jeans (if they had existed in 1941) in petrol. Perhaps sticking in rig is a good way ahead.

[R 21]

AA

100% agree it is a bunch of small minded people (normally TA WO filling regular slots) who have nothing better to do than try and 'enforce' a policy which no one wants, needs or cares for!! :mad:

[airborne_artist]

In the RN when at sea, all ranks wear uniform at all times except when doing sport, even if in their mess/wardroom off duty.

What's different about your situation, except for the incoming mortars?

[PTT]

The difference is that we have much more space to put civvies - we're not limited to the size of the boat.

I agree with the opening post - it's the tiny things which make all the difference. And it costs nothing, too...

[ProfessionalStudent]

Mr AEO

You demonstrate a very narrow-minded there. Just because you had no need or wish to change into civvies, is that an acceptable reason why no-one should be able to change into them? I'm afraid the military are all very quick to default to the lowest common denominator (and often the minority), rather than improve/sustain the situation (often the majority).

Having done a det to Basrah last year, whilst I didn't change every night, it was a relief to be able to change into civvies on the odd occasion during my 3 month tour. It certainly did something to improve my morale and I'm sure the ability to do so went some way to improve the morale of the guys going out on the ground when they got back and wound-down. A change is as good as a rest and all that.

Airborne Artist

But it ain't a ship! And surely you would if you could? And what about runs ashore? And just because that's what the RN do on boats, why does it mean we should all do it wherever? Maybe we should all grow beards too.

Nope, I just can't supress it any more...

...Rant On

Conditions at BAS are bad enough without petty little morale sappers such as this. Is the new ruling as a direct result of the teeth-arm guys actually complaining directly? Or did some jumped-up SO2 in Div think it would be a good idea to get him noticed? He was probably jealous that people had enough time to get changed into civvies at all. In fact, I'm surprised he could bring himself to cast his eyes onto the great unwashed out of the tinted windows of his air-conditioned LandRover 3 V8 SE on the way from his air-conditioned and sun-shaded accomodation to his spacious, dust free and air-conditioned office in Div.

And as for the RMPs and other low-lives with their Gucci LandRovers etc, don't get me started. Of course you need a LR to do speed checks with. And with their parking sensors, it makes it much easier to reverse into the slots in the car park. Or alternatively, you could just dump it by the armoury in case you get a shout. Like someone'e nicking a packet of Chewits from the NAAFI, for instance.

Rant Off

There, that feels better.

Am Av
Toot toot old boy. Glad you're back safe and another good post.

[SaddamsLoveChild]

and what do the americans do, they only allow their guys to wear either PT kit or full uniform, seems reasonable.They do however have a full morale and welfare support provided by KBR, stage shows, line dancing etc but are under Gen Order No 1- not allowed to drink any alcohol at all, no porn and no sexual relations. But are you telling me that in an operational theatre there are Officers and SNCO's without Jacket, shirt, tie and slacks? Officers without dinner jackets - ye gods.

However the small minded view of one on ops all on ops in case it upsets someone is ludicrous and morale sapping - everyone should be given timne to relaxand it cant be the fact that a T shirt may offend the locals they are already pretty upset that we are there and short of running a herd of pigs through Kandahar or Basra high street, it couldnt get much worse.

Its typical army Arse...........the RAF SH and a fair chunk of the RAF's morale sold to the Army for a very low price.

[Wader2]

Agree. Uniform is uniform. It is working dress. When not working . . .

When wearing No 1s it is a parade uniform - I don't do ordinary work in No 1s. On occasion when I went to work in civvies it did not feel right. Pockets in the wrong places, didn't want to get it dirty of whatever.

Off duty in uniform and you feel like a sack of spuds or you wear it full-fig and you are NOT off duty.

I take A_As point but I suspect there was also an element of dress down when not actually on watch.

[airborne_artist]

Airborne Artist

But it ain't a ship! And surely you would if you could? And what about runs ashore? And just because that's what the RN do on boats, why does it mean we should all do it wherever? Maybe we should all grow beards too.

Civvies kept in locker for runs ashore, obviously.

Do you have a Samsonite case? :E

[PTT]

Oh so you get runs ashore? Tends not to happen in the places which are actually dangerous :E

What is the problem with people who are OFF DUTY wearing off duty clothing, i.e. civvies? :confused:

As for it being what the spams do, I really don't think that's a country we should look to for inspiration in too many things - certainly not their "worker bee" military mentality.

[Matrix Marauder]

'Actually dangerous' why on earth would you want to wear civvies then??
Uniform is free, surely you have no need to impress anyone in your civvies??

[R 21]

Matrix

whats being dangerous got to do with wearing civies? If a mortar is going to hit you being in uniform aint gonna help any more than civies!!:p

[The Gorilla]

There is only one good way to get out of uniform and wear civvies.... Like thousands of others in recent times:
You need to leave and get a proper job!!
:}

[Wader2]

There is only one good way to get out of uniform and wear civvies.... Like thousands of others in recent times:
You need to leave and get a proper job!!
:}

You still need a uniform in McDonalds.

Out of the fire and into the fat.:}

[cornish-stormrider]

I will need 2 possibly 3 eng's in the next 12 months. 1 mech biased and the others elect bias.

Salary good for the region and there aint no trips to the sandpit. interested?????

PM please

The work is FMCG based rather than aviation but my boss loves mil trained types with integrity and professionalism.

[PTT]

It's not about impressing, it's about being comfortable and relaxed. I certainly won't be wearing (and haven't worn) my best bib and tucker in the sandpit, but the ability to put on a t-shirt and a pair of shorts and flip-flops makes life, if not actually pleaseant, then at least more bearable.

Why make life harder when it's a pain in the ass anyway?

[Widger]

I am reading these threads with growing incredulity. Those in the sandpit are in an operational environment and there is no place for civvies. You are never off duty. I hope that your slacks/shirt are fire proof by the way, for when that mortar round hits your block/tent or the militia storms the base to find you all in nylon shorts and flip flops!

Civvies are fine in the UK/Europe, rest of the world where the security situation allows and you are genuinely "off duty". This totally smacks of totally incorrect focus. You should be complaining about your food, transport, air conditioning etc, not about being able to wear bl**dy jeans. You will be wanting to take your Ipod on patrol with you next. I have not been so open mouthed since the "washing your MT/hire car" thread.

And before the Dark Blue slagging starts, don't forget that there are plenty of them in both sandpits as well.

So you have had your rant, I hope you feel better!

[The Helpful Stacker]

And before the Dark Blue slagging starts, don't forget that there are plenty of them in both sandpits as well.


Aye there is and this,

You will be wanting to take your Ipod on patrol with you next.

has already been taken up by some of them as at least one had his taken off him by a big, nasty Iranian who called him 'Mr Bean'.

:\

[PTT]

RANT ON
Quite frankly, Widger, you can take your "growing incredulity" and stick it. There are situations when you are off duty in many locations, and I would like to know exactly what the problem is with being comfortable and relaxed in such an environment. Having spent almost 2 years in various sandpits since the start of this debacle I know exactly what it is I want to complain about, and it's not the food, transport or lack of air-con: these things take time and money to improve and will do so eventually. What I do want to complain about is the complete jobsworths who decide upon pointless, stupid and depressing rules because they feel it is "more military" or "more operationally focussed". Bolleux! All it does is keep people wound up and tense, not allowing them to get proper rest and thereby increasing cumulative fatigue, reducing morale and actually undermining operational effectiveness.
As for having "fireproof civvies", I suggest you check the fire retardant properties of DCC - I've seen a set burn, and they go up like paper soaked in petrol.
RANT OFF

[Widger]

Helpful stacker

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) (http://dictionary.reference.com/help/luna.html) - Cite This Source (http://dictionary.reference.com/cite.html?qh=irony&ia=luna)
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[Widger]

My god, will you please listen to yourselves.......any middle eastern readers of this forum must be laughing their burkas off!

You are obviously in the military, operating in what is essentially a flamin war zone, getting mortared on a daily basis, Soldiers and Marines getting shot at, top cover getting sniped at and you are complaining about not being able to wear your jeans and T-shirt.

Get a grip or follow the lead of the rest of the RAF and join Virgin or BA.:ugh:

[Talking Radalt]

All it does is keep people wound up and tense, not allowing them to get proper rest and thereby increasing cumulative fatigue, reducing morale and actually undermining operational effectiveness.

If wearing uniform makes you "wound up and tense" maybe you should give serious consideration to hanging up said uniform for good. How does wearing civvies allow you more appropriate rest than DPM? How the hell does being allowed to look like the contents of an Easyjet flight to Ibiza make you more operationally effective?!
I mean, come on. Civvies? On Ops? What the **** for?
If you have both the time and inclination to change in to an Ing-urrrrrrr-lund top and flip flops you are clearly a REMF/PONTI.
As an SH mate, we simply never wear civvies because in general we are:
a) just too damn busy to have any time out of DP, and thus:
b) don't really care about dress code on those rare occasions when we are "not at work". Far more important things to worry about I'm afraid.
Simply having an afternoon off (and I use the term in it's loosest possible context) is enough of a perk.
In fact, the more I think about, the day we "have" to wear civvies unless quite literally at work will actually increase the hassle of being on det and probably lower morale. I can just picture the scene when a Chinny crew gets back from the usual Herrick tasking day and all that it entails, and in amongst all the other nause and trivia have to then find time to dress (down) for dinner.
Just to add some fuel to the inevitable flaming that's coming my way, I do tend to find those who make noises about "It's only an attempt to raise our quality of life after all" are those who already have a fairly elevated, priviliged existance and I suspect this isn't really about the cut of one's cloth at all, but more about an objection to being bossed about. Truth is, the more noise you make, the more they boss you about :hmm:

[PTT]

you are complaining about not being able to wear your jeans and T-shirt.
Wrong. I am complaining about stupid and nonsense rules being brought in for no reason whatsoever. I suggest you get a grip and realise that it's these little and totally avoidable things which p!ss people off more than anything else. Read Norman Dixon's "On the Psychology of Military Incompetence". Chapter 8 is entitled "Bull****".

Talking Radalt

I am an SH mate, and as I've aluded to I've done ample time in plenty of sand. You may have "far more important" things to worry about than the morale of your guys but I'm damned if I know what they are.
Nobody is suggesting that you should have to change into civvies, but I've found that even a half hour when I can get out of my sweaty socks and boots and into a pair of shorts and flip-flops makes me feel much better and ready to go again; I doubt I'm the only person who feels this way. What I am arguing for is to have the option, and not be dictated to for no reason (I know, it's the military, but that doesn't mean we have to be stupid!).

[Talking Radalt]

You may have "far more important" things to worry about than the morale of your guys but I'm damned if I know what they are.
1. Not getting shot down
2. Not getting shot down
3. Not getting shot down
4. Not getting shot down
5. Not getting shot down
6. See items 1-5
I tend to find worrying about items 1-6 tends to maintain morale far, far better than obtaining permission to wear a hoody.:rolleyes:
I've found that even a half hour when I can get out of my sweaty socks and boots and into a pair of shorts and flip-flops makes me feel much better and ready to go again
Yup, and that's exactly what I do for around 30 minutes to an hour before beddy byes each night when it's dark, I'm usually away for a shower and those who like to enforce petty rules are already in beddy byes themselves so don't actually witness me breaking said rules. Not hard is it?!

[PTT]

If wearing uniform makes you "wound up and tense" maybe you should give serious consideration to hanging up said uniform for good. How does wearing civvies allow you more appropriate rest than DPM? How the hell does being allowed to look like the contents of an Easyjet flight to Ibiza make you more operationally effective?!
You misquote me. I didn't say uniform makes me wound up and tense, I said that keeping people in uniform uneccesarily keeps people wound up and tense, in the sense that they do not feel that they are off the patrol, away from the aircraft or whatever. At least try to argue with the point I am making instead if setting up your own straw men for you knock back down.
Wearing civvies gives better rest because they are cooler (in a temperature sense) and you feel you are away from the centre of the action - even the illusion of this is more relaxing. In that sense you can relax better - less heat stress, less time in what are already dirty and sweaty clothes, and a small sense of actually being in the real world can mentally as well as physically prepare you for the next sortie better.
Your points 1-6 are well taken, but I sincerely doubt you are thinking about that when you are on the ground, which is the situation we are talking about. I hope you do wear correct (and fire retardant!) uniform when in the air, the correct time to be worrying about such things, and I am not suggesting anything different, but we are not talking about that - we are talking about your free time, your relaxing time, the time when you need to reset yourself ready for the next few sorties when you will need to be on top form to be able to give your full attention to your points 1-6.
that's exactly what I do for around 30 minutes to an hour before beddy byes each night when it's dark, I'm usually away for a shower and those who like to enforce petty rules are already in beddy byes themselves so don't actually witness me breaking said rules.
Glad to see you flout the rules you are so vehemently defending! :E
So what's wrong with making such a thing legal, since you seem to actually agree with it.

[The Helpful Stacker]

To be honest on all the operational deployments I've been on in my service career I've never taken much more than uniform and sports kit as usually the laundry facilities have consisted of boil washing everything to death then spin drying it until the material goes like cardboard. Can't see the point of wrecking decent clothes.

[Safety_Helmut]

Can't see the point of wrecking decent clothes.
Wouldn't do your crimplene slacks and zip up polyester cardigan much good would it now THS.

S_H :ok:

[Wader2]

PTT, your last post makes the point very well, especially for aircrew. The peeling off of damp or soaked long johns and vest, shirt and flying suit and the bliss of letting a bit of air to ones hot sweaty bot.

OK, as SH types you may not wear cold weather gear in the heat but it was for fire protection too. Goundcrew may not have the same hot, sweaty bags but they too get hot and sweaty. They too need a breather. Yes, breather not only in the breath of fresh air but breather that comes from clean clothes too.

Civvies also gives you an extra set of togs to wear. 1 dirty set of combats, 2 clean set of civvies, 3 fresh set of combats and the dirty set 1 to the wash. If you remove civvies from the equation you need a 3rd set of combats for spare.

As the marines say, any fool can be uncomfrtable. It takes effort to be comfortable. Why make life awkward when you can relax the rules? If there is no stand-to requirement then what's with the 24 hr combats?

[Widger]

PTT,

No-one is bringing in the rules, they are re-establishing existing ones because people have obviously started to flout them and some have probably taken the Pi$$ which has ruined it for everyone else.

I understand that you and others are probably wound up about this but, you are part of a disciplined military force, not some militia. You are very close to confirming the stereotype that many others have of the particular service within which you serve and do your peers a discredit.

[Talking Radalt]

PTT,
I suspect part of the problem is the general across-the-board lowering of standards. Whilst I (and reading your posts you too) are capable of deciding what/where/when is and is not appropriate dress standards in this case, there are an increasing number who simply cannot or will not apply a bit of individual moderation or group self-policing in many aspects of their daily routine. It goes hand in hand with the current and I suspect sadly permanent "You can't tell me what to do" attidude which is gradually creeping in to military life everywhere.
I'd be willing to bet these unpopular rules you mention are the result of somone kicking the ar$e out of a previously relaxed attitude and probably ignoring a few subtle hints.
I wouldn't say I flout the rules, I simply conduct myself in such a way as to not attract attention.
And I'm sorry, I fail to understand how not wearing DPM would make me feel away from the action. Surely the lack of incoming does that? ;)

[PTT]

Widger

This is an operational military environment we are talking about, not some camp in Suffolk or wherever. The stresses and strains are very different here, and the heirarchy should be reacting with some semblance of empathy for their men. Just because people look like a shower of sh!t in their rest areas, who cares? They are RESTING! So long as hygeine is maintained in the cookhouse and they are doing their jobs properly, why should people not be allowed to relax? Do your job, do it well, and your free time is your own.
These rules on uniform may have already existed, but that does not mean they need to be enforced - I'm yet to see anyone justify them.
As for your idea of a stereotype, personally I couldn't give a flying..... :mad: I'd rather my crew and I are suitably rested and able to carry out our duties than wear proper uniform for breakfast. It's called professionalism.

Talking Radalt

One person not taking hints should not mean a tightening of regulation for those capable of taking these rules in the manner in which they are meant. Such a reaction smacks of a lazy approach to discipline and is no way to run any organisation, let alone a military one!
Just because your flouting the rules is subtle does not make it any more legal fella :p
Not wearing DPM clearly does make you feel more relaxed or you would not change into shorts and flip-flops of an evening :ok:

[snapper41]

PTT;
You can probably get some Kleenex at the EFI to dry your eyes with :E

[PTT]

To bite or not to bite: that is the question ;)

[jayteeto]

It must be awful for the Royal Marines...... How do they get to wear their dresses and bikinis?? Don't deny it, I have seen it in Kosovo :ok: Some of them even looked good :E
Edited to state that this is an attempt at humour.

[ARINC]

The work is FMCG based rather than aviation but my boss loves mil trained types with integrity and professionalism.

Rather late to this but does this mean Photocopier service engineers Cornish Storm ? :}

[Talking Radalt]

One person not taking hints should not mean a tightening of regulation for those capable of taking these rules in the manner in which they are meant
OK, and if it's more than one?
Just because your flouting the rules is subtle does not make it any more legal fella
I do not flout rules. I apply them with a dash of common sense and practicality, and observe the spirit, if not the word, of the rules. Sadly there are a greater majority who cannot do the same and thus end up having restrictive and apparently petty (in their eyes obviously) rules forced upon them.
Call me a prudish old fuddy duddy but wearing, for example, a t-shirt purchased from a well connected high street chain bearing a "clever" anagram of the word "F*ck" in a multi-national mess is not common sense.
I'd agree with the sentiment that it takes effort to be comfortable, it also takes effort to stop and think.
Not wearing DPM clearly does make you feel more relaxed or you would not change into shorts and flip-flops of an evening
Wrong. I dress like that primarily to make evening ablutions easier and quicker, and wearing boots in the shower just doesn't work.

[Two's in]

It's always the same problem - most people play the game and wear sensible gear, like shorts and t-shirts (without a "Fcuk the Pope" motif) but then the resident Graham Norton tips up in a spandex jumpsuit with sequined dance pumps just as the CGS is visiting (every unit has one). This sends the Razzman off into new realms of moronic and petty rule-making, and everyone suffers. Historically, the military never assumes that the bright ones will always understand the required dress codes and miraculously pass this on to the trolls by reverse osmosis, they assume that if you don't print it in DRO's some twot will abuse it. It's certainly not "fair" to be tar-brushed when every day you are wrestling with your Stephen Hawkinge intellect, but that's how the military works. Never assume - enforce.

[Widger]

Startled marines find Afghan men all made up to see them

Chris Stephen In Bagram
BRITISH marines returning from an operation deep in the Afghan mountains spoke last night of an alarming new threat - being propositioned by swarms of gay local farmers.
An Arbroath marine, James Fletcher, said: "They were more terrifying than the al-Qaeda. One bloke who had painted toenails was offering to paint ours. They go about hand in hand, mincing around the village."

While the marines failed to find any al-Qaeda during the seven-day Operation Condor, they were propositioned by dozens of men in villages the troops were ordered to search.
"We were pretty shocked," Marine Fletcher said. "We discovered from the Afghan soldiers we had with us that a lot of men in this country have the same philosophy as ancient Greeks: ‘a woman for babies, a man for pleasure’."
Originally, the marines had sent patrols into several villages in the mountains near the town of Khost, hoping to catch up with al-Qaeda suspects who last week fought a four-hour gun battle with soldiers of the Australian SAS. The hardened troops, their faces covered in camouflage cream and weight down with weapons, radios and ammunition, were confronted with Afghans wanting to stroke their hair.
"It was hell," said Corporal Paul Richard, 20. "Every village we went into we got a group of men wearing make-up coming up, stroking our hair and cheeks and making kissing noises."
At one stage, troops were invited into a house and asked to dance. Citing the need to keep momentum in their search and destroy mission, the marines made their excuses and left. "They put some music on and ask us to dance. I told them where to go," said Cpl Richard. "Some of the guys turned tail and fled. It was hideous."
The Afghan hill tribes live in some of the most isolated communities in the country. "I think a lot of the problem is that they don’t have the women around a lot," said another marine, Vaz Pickles. "We only saw about two women in the whole six days. It was all very disconcerting."

[PTT]

TR

If it's more than one you deal with the individuals involved. Even if it's an entire flight/patrol/squadron/whatever, you punish and control them, not merely make life harder for everyone. As I say, an across-the-board tightening is merely lazy discipline.

I do not flout rules. I apply them with a dash of common sense and practicality, and observe the spirit, if not the word, of the rules.
In honour of Douglas Bader, well said :D

Call me a prudish... <snip> ...it also takes effort to stop and think.
Agreed (esp. the bit about Fcuk). So why take away the privilige of stopping and thinking from those who are capable of it? Lazy discipline.

Wrong. I dress like that primarily to make evening ablutions easier and quicker, and wearing boots in the shower just doesn't work.
So you agree there are times when civvies are appropriate? Good.

[Widger]

http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/3/3e/The-Pure-Hell-of-St-Trinians.jpg

Uniform is always best!

[FantomZorbin]

Gentlemen,

It seems perverse that someone is insisting on correct dress under operational conditions 'to maintain morale'. I seem to remember a gentleman incorrectly dressed carrying an umbrella at Arnhem, an inspiring character in non-issue pullover called Stirling and a chap in Burma not entirely kitted in stores; all were morale boosting leaders of the highest order. There were many many others I know but History and memory evades me.

Perhaps the luckless jobsworth in the sandpit should think long and hard on how our forebears got sh*tty jobs done well making the best of the grim circumstances.

All the very best to those, both correctly and incorrectly dressed, in the sandpit - stay safe.

FZ

[Talking Radalt]

It seems perverse that someone is insisting on correct dress under operational conditions 'to maintain morale'. I seem to remember a gentleman incorrectly dressed carrying an umbrella at Arnhem, an inspiring character in non-issue pullover called Stirling and a chap in Burma not entirely kitted in stores; all were morale boosting leaders of the highest order. There were many many others I know but History and memory evades me.

The early SAS, applying dress (and driving) regs with practicality and common sense to get a difficult job done:
http://www.martinfrost.ws/htmlfiles/blizt_buggy.jpg
The yoof of today on (or is it off?) Ops:
http://img482.imageshack.us/img482/1624/brilliant6408kh.jpg
Now can you see the difference?

[Zithro]

I did 4 months at BAS not so long ago, detached to the Army, rather than with the RAF and to be quite honest the sight of RAF people in civvies was not only bad for morale, but also very devisive. To come back in from a couple of days of sightseeing, to first hear the disco music pumping out of the RAF camp, and then to see RAF people bimbling around in their Hawaiian shirts (with obligatory body armour slung over one shoulder) and a can of beer in hand, did nothing to improve my morale or the others on my team. In my mind you are either on Ops or not, and while you are on Ops that is a 24 hour commitment.

Now, I fully expect to get some of you telling me about the need for down time etc, but in my mind this is :mad:. From what I've seen during my time overseas is that there is a 2-tier level of Op going on; those (both green, drak blue and light blue) that go outside the wire, either in the air or by veh, and those that never leave the compounds. Everybody serving out there has a duty to support Ops, and that does not mean taking the opportunity to prance about in civvies at every opportunity. And another thing...I'm not sure what the status is now, but all units should be dry!

Heart-felt rant over!

Bracing myself for the response :sad:

[PTT]

Talking Radalt

That'll be a picture of the early SAS while on duty and a picture of a parody of the yoof of today.

Zithro

So you think that we should cater to the lowest common denominator? Or do you think that you and your team would have felt a bit differently if it was about to be you going to get a beer and wind down for a night after a few days sightseeing? I put it to you that it is not the fact that other people can relax, but the fact that you guys can't (i.e. aren't allowed to), which is geting morale down so much. And of course I can see the potential for this to be abused, but like I said: discipline the individual, not the entire unit.

I agree that everyone is there to support ops, but practice bleeding because someone else is outside the wire is pointless. Instead of feeling jealous that others have priviliges, why not enjoy yours while you can? And then put everything your well-rested self can into doing your job well when you do go outside the wire.

[Tourist]

Zithro!

Take that back!
All units dry?!!!
Now that would be devastating for morale!

[Compressorstall]

Amateur Aviator

I would love to be able to say that I sympathise with your lack of opportunity to model some casual wear (even including the range of RAF casual clothing designed for your average 45-yr old Dad) whilst on ops, but I can't.

You're an SH mate. You support the Land Component. You're on ops not an overseas landaway. Ops are demanding and think of the extra capacity this is freeing up for you now you don't have the daily wardrobe dilemma of what to step out in. You might find it divisive that 903 EAW can still wear civvies, so now you know what it's like for the Army when they see us in the Joint environment dressed for the beach rather than looking like we are taking the business seriously. If this really affects your ability to chill out in ECHOS, use the internet to your full ability and restricts your ability to enjoy a meal in between sorties, then perhaps you're holding on too tight.

Uniform to me = being at work and when I'm at home I equate wearing civvies with not worrying about the pressures of ops.

This has to be on a par with the C130 article in the paper which showed the Army how precious we can be.

I know it's hard, but until we restrict ourselves to operations in Ibiza, this is just how it is.

[The Helpful Stacker]

I see the age old "we can't have it so why should they" argument creeping in. Isn't this also used to try and take certain rates off of certain trades too?

Surely rather than moaning and bleating about what others are doing/have got you should be moaning about what you can't do/haven't got, or is that to difficult. Much easier to f:mad: up everyones lives eh?

I've been on both sides of the coin and I'd rather everyones standard of living was brought up rather than brought down due to the jealous moaning of a few.

That said though I worked with a complete tit of a chap out in Basrah a few years back who was an 'Emo kid', into his black clothes, make-up and fitting lumps of metal back into holes in his face whenever he could. He ended up squaring up to the acting-SWO (covering for R&R) in the mess one day over some bauble that was dangling out of his eye brow using the defence "well the proper SWO doesn't mind", in front of half of the resident rock squadron and various other RAF personnel. He wasn't the smartest bloke I've ever met and proved it that day.:rolleyes:

[PTT]

I know it's hard, but until we restrict ourselves to operations in Ibiza, this is just how it is.
Not exactly a watertight justification, "that's just how it is" :rolleyes:

All the stuff about supporting the land component is entirely true - nobody is saying we shouldn't do that to the best of our ability. Please explain to me how me wearing a t-shirt and flip-flops when I am relaxing prevents me from doing just that. And I don't want to hear any "it's the military", "you're on ops" or any similarly circular or tenet-based arguments like that.

[Jimlad1]

I wore civvies out there every day in BAS - do you know how much hassle it is trying to co-ordinate ones wardrobe for 6 months when you've only got a few polo shirts? Also not much fun trying to look stylish on repeated helo flights outside the wire and up in the Green Zone - Trust me, give me DPM any day :E

[Biggus]

I seem to remember Hawkeye and Trapper John wearing Hawaiian shirts, partly to maintain their sanity, without it effecting their operational performance. But of course that was fiction!

The last time I was in Basrah (airfield site) somebody had built a Naafi complex there, partly no doubt to help people relax. Does this mean someone believes relaxing is a good thing, and should be encouraged?

Considering we have another running thread discussing the issues of PTSD, I would have thought that, where possible, positive steps should be being taken to let people unwind, relax and de-stress.

But then I am not of the 'a day out of uniform is a day wasted' school of thought.

[Talking Radalt]

That'll be a picture of the early SAS while on duty and a picture of a parody of the yoof of today.

Two things.
How do you know they're on ops? :}
And parodies are usually founded in sharp-eyed observations of the real world, so there has to be an element of truth/fact in them.

And I don't want to hear any "it's the military", "you're on ops"
If you cannot accept the fcukin' obvious answer to your question, don't bother asking the question in the first place. :p
Actually, it's a fair cop. It's a holiday, it's all a big bloody exercise really, turn up when you like, wear what you want and call everybody "Mate".
In fact, f*ck it, take the rest of the war off.

[BootFlap]

Luckily I don't have to wear uniform on Ops! I wear (as many have told me on other threads, a coverall/Mk14 flying suit) so get to change into uniform whilst off duty! (Oh the ayy-run-ey)

[Biggus]

Talking Radalt

Actually, I quite often met some guys out there who seemed to call each other 'mate' frequently!!

[Sinjmajeep]

and what do the americans do, they only allow their guys to wear either PT kit or full uniform, seems reasonable.

I think they introduced this rule especially in Al Udeid because a gang culture was starting to develop and many US servicemen and women were starting to wear their gang colours. So they decided that there would be only one gang colour allowed and it was the US Armed Forces gang.

[serf]

...........sounds like you are the lowest common denominator

[Compressorstall]

PTT

I too do not accept the 'that's just how it is' argument, but I manage to relax whatever clothes I'm wearing and perhaps it is simply an attempt to engender a sense of purpose amongst the Force Elements. There is nothing more divisive than stagging on whilst you watch other elements wandering round dressed for the beach. I am cynical enough about attempts at practice bleeding, but this is simply ensuring that in the work environment we find ourselves in that we don't find massive divides being built up just because we have some precious urge to be able to go around in civvies. If there is any evidence to suggest that PTSD has been brought on by wearing DCC I will be happy to investigate this.

[soprano54]

But that isn't quite the worst part. Apparently 903 EAW have NOT signed up to this ruling. Why can't we be a part of the proper RAF again? Bring back Strike Command. Bring back all the commands. We wear RAF uniforms and RAF rank. We work at RAF stations. We fly RAF, not Army helicopters. It's about time that someone sticks up for us.


Stop blubbing AA the sooner you realise that no matter what your job is you are there to support the man on the ground who is going to close with and kill the enemy. It's those guys that keep you and me employed!:ok:

[Amateur Aviator]

Soprano54,

I give in-

BITE

Of course I realise I'm there to support them. You think I don't know that? Every day we put ourselves into harm's way too. Of course it's not quite the same as the boys putting boots on the ground. Everyone takes risks in their own way.

I'll let go now

[soprano54]

Of course I realise I'm there to support them. You think I don't know that? Every day we put ourselves into harm's way too. Of course it's not quite the same as the boys putting boots on the ground. Everyone takes risks in their own way.

I'll let go now


Good I'm glad and just think when you get back to Benson/Odiham/Wherever, after you've done half the time in the 'Sandpit' as the lads who walk the streets do. When you don your trapping kit in preparation for a night out on the lash for the first time on your RTB, spare a thought for them mate................cheers!:ok:

[BootFlap]

Jeez Soprano, I didn't realise the lads were spending 6 months of every year in Iraq/Afghanistan.

[Talking Radalt]

Jeez Soprano, I didn't realise the lads were spending 6 months of every year in Iraq/Afghanistan.
Actually, in order to meet Soprano's claim that the brown do twice as long in the sand as the light blue, they'd have to spend at least eight months every year out there. :hmm:

So they decided that there would be only one gang colour allowed and it was the US Armed Forces gang.
So they've applied their Foreign Policy at unit level then? :}

[BootFlap]

I raise your 8 at put it at closer to 10 out of 12!

[soprano54]

I'll get my coat! :\

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Now if only a few more brown folk could get that simple message then more would be humbled like soprano :D

Edited to add quite a few in the AT world should hoist those facts on board as well as there is no doubt that the SH and AAC world have a very ****ty stick to hold onto at this time :sad:

[Melchett01]

AA - nice grenade, well tossed!

Have to say I agree. This has absolutely nothing to do with with 'being on ops' 'attached to Land' 'being in a war zone' or any other crappy staff-officer speak Div cares to dress it up as. This is all to do with personalities (or lack of) on ego trips, making up pointles rules and regs to justify their existance in an organisation that has always done a great job of making you wonder just who the enemy really is.

And why do I say that? Camp Bastion, summer 06 - in the midst of not firing a single shot with the 3 Para BG, guys out on combat ops every day. Dress regs on camp, shorts, t-shirts, sandals and weapons. The only rule, no open toed footwear or sweaty sports kit in the cookhouse, and stick a shirt on when someone important comes round. And that was with 3 Para BG. No doubt, many of those who object to people wearing civies, sports kit, non-uniform etc at BAS because it's unmilitary would have had a heart attack at Bastion.

Now if you would like to take your argument about being unmilitary in Camp, pop it down in writing and send it to CO 3 Para, not sure if it is still Col Stuart, and tell him that you think his guys were an unmilitary shower and not effective just because they happened to wander round Camp in shorts and t-shirts, please be my guest. I can guess what the response will be and I wouldn't like to be around when you have a chat with him.

What was the old saying - no combat unit has ever passed inspection. Try telling that to the divs in Div. It's Basrah not bloody Horseguards Parade. Now get a life, get a grip of it and get on with what you are actually there for. And breathe.

[soprano54]

Gents/Ladies apologies if I offended and got my facts wrong about length of tours. I do know that some of you are out there year in year out and will be for the foreseeable future. BTW I thought we were all purple now!!!:ugh:

[Talking Radalt]

Ah but Melchett, having also got amongst it with 3 Para I think it's fair to say, even when dressed to relax they still managed to look suitably military, sticking to unofficial Regt t-shirts with black/dark coloured running shorts or similar.
What you did not see at Bastion was the shell-suited Ing-urrrrrr-land topped yoof shuffling round Kandahar with his hair full of "product" on his way to a beer call with a weapon safely wrapped up in a bin bag, and I have absolutely no doubt it is this latter species who have to be ruled over at the expense of those who can wind down without upsetting those who admittedly do take great delight in enforcing trivia. Which brings me on to annuver fing...
Nothing delights the would be RSM/SWO types more than hearing a load of whinging in response to their latest scheme. I find it far more effective to just adhere to their silly rules without saying a word, thus implying their hollow rantings have no significant impact whatsoever. As soon as they know they've got to you they've won. Better to leave them guessing. ;)

[Melchett01]

TR - I will concede the point about the ingggguuuuuuuurland t-shirts etc. I mean how embarrassing, being caught wearing a polyster t-shirt :E

I do like where you're going with the whole psyops thing against the RSM/SWO :E But from what I'm hearing back from BAS, don't you think Bastion was actually well run and quite grown up i.e. no pointless rules, but when we do make rules they are there for a reason and you are to adhere to them.

That is much more palatable and is a line of reasoning that would probably find favour in BAS - and be adhered to. Instead they have the current regime of childish tantrums seemingly coming out of Div every other day that people spend all their time ignoring. Would be a much more productive use of everyone's time and energy

[Talking Radalt]

don't you think Bastion was actually well run and quite grown up i.e. no pointless rules
Agree unconditionally. It turned boys in to men, girls in to men, and men in to boys then back to men again.
Thing is, last time I was there there were no pointless rules because there were no pointless people filling pointless posts where they inevitably got bored and went on the prowl for a non-existant problem to which they could then apply some "leadership" in the hope of getting promoted.
Then there was KAF.....:hmm:

[PTT]

TR

So you agree that it is entirely possible to look decent while wearing civvies on ops? Glad to hear it. In no way did I suggest that England shirts and shell-suits should be de rigeur in any of my posts - a sensible approach is all that I want, not the lazy disciplinarian approach we seem to have now.

If you cannot accept the fcukin' obvious answer to your question, don't bother asking the question in the first place.
That's the talk of the religious zealot :eek:

Compresorstall

Feeling bad that others are relaxing while you go on ops? How childish (not a personal dig at you, btw). How about worrying about what you have to do first and then enjoying the relaxation you'll be getting when you get back? How about using such things as a motivator for your lads instead?

Melchett - Well said :D

[The Helpful Stacker]

I must admit I found all the lads at BAS who got dolled up to pop to the NAAFI a little strange. Who were they doing it for?

BAS is the land of pointlessly petty rules though. A lad who worked for me out in BAS got pulled up for wearing a t-shirt rather than a DCC shirt when he had to move a J-Cab from beside JHC HQ (where wearing of t-shirts was allowed) to the pan via the road. Apparently he had fallen foul of the rules because if you drive on the road you have to be wearing full DCC and head dress within your vehicle, no matter how short your journey.:rolleyes:

[Widger]

So what do we do then, we relax the rules and allow everyone to wear what they like. Then the piercings go in, then the drinking gets a little bit excessive, but, not to worry, they are just relaxing, dear things, leave them alone, the ops is stressful enough as it is. The the bullying starts, "oh leave them alone they are just letting off steam"....its a stressful op. Then the beatings of civilians start and pictures are taken of them in leashes and behaving like dogs.


This is why there are military rules....to keep order, once you let one rule slip, you are on the slippery slope. The UK armed forces have learnt this from over 1000 years of experience. You are not in the Scouts, you are part of Her Majesty's Armed Forces on OPERATIONS.

Royal Flying Club...............Civvies in uniform! There.......I've said it!

[The Helpful Stacker]

Don't be so obtuse 'Widger'.

Wearing piercings is against the book in the UK so should realistically be expected to be vertbooten in an operational theatre too.

Wearing a t-shirt instead of a DCC shirt because outside the tempreture is in the 40's and you have to drive a J-Cab which has been sat in the sun all day and hence is like a mobile oven is quite another issue.

Wearing t-shirts won't I believe bring about the fall of civilisation, nor should it be considered a henious crime when surely niff naff and trival and 'what not to wear' should be left at Brize Norton, with the actual task of projecting air power to support operations in Iraq/Afganistan being the over-riding concern.

As I said earlier in this thread though, the practicalities of taking 'gucci' civvies out to an operational theatre should be the point that is pushed home, not the actual wearing of them. When I was out at BAS last lads for 2 Sqn were pulled up about wasting bottled water on washing their 'trapping kit' as they were not happy about their pretty things being boil washed by the dhobi gang.

[PTT]

Widger

Sorry, rubbish. This is not a matter of two extremes - you simply apply sensible rules and enforce them. Most people in the military are on the conservative side of moderate, and it is them we should be catering for. Slippery slope arguments fall foul of the fact that you are merely arguing about the fear of things getting worse, not that they are actually worse. When some people do take to extremes then you apply individual discipline, like I have said, not the lazy discipline of tightening things up for everyone preemptively.

Your nonsense about "military rules" is just that - nonsense. Like I've already suggested, a reading of Norman Dixon's "On the Psychology of Military Incompetence" should be attempted - it uses many, many examples from the 1000 years of British military history to which you refer, and shows that we actually learn bugger all and make the same mistakes time and time again, just as we are doing now. :ugh:

I fail to see where your snipe at the RAF is relevant here, but maybe it's just because I don't take such things personally. :rolleyes:

[ProfessionalStudent]

Widger

I also assume,then, that you are against the wearing of jeans or other such casual items in the Sgts' and Officers' Messes? God forbid our people should be allowed to relax at home.

If a clear set of guidleines as to what was acceptable in terms of civvy attire whilst deployed was published, it would be easier to take action against those transgressing said rules. Just like dress regs in said messes. Conform or accept the punishment. After all, the population of the Sgts' Mess is formed of the previously England-shirted junior ranks.

If you treat people like children, that is exactly how they behave. When personnel are not "putting rounds down the range" or "transporting people to put rounds down the range", where's the harm in wearing civvies and relaxing a bit. Certainly the Army personnel at BAS I saw were quite happy to get into civvies given the chance. Oh no, my mistake, they can't have been Army or Navy, because it's only the RAF that show such a distinct lack of standards. You're not one of those chiselling SO2s in Div are you?

[Widger]

PTT,

I suggest rather than reading Mr Dixon's book, you would be better served by reading Queen's Regulations for the RAF and the associated publications. If you are an Officer or WO, I would also suggest that you take a trip into your toilet and take the time to read the words on your commissioning scroll as well.

I am not against wearing of relaxed attire in any mess. That is not what this is about. This is about some idiots getting upset about not being able to prance around a base in civilian t-shirts, shorts jeans etc, with body armour slung over their shoulders and living it up, inside a base which is subject to regular mortar fire, in danger of attack 24/7, inside a country where there is effectively a low scale WAR going on.

Please, for crying out load, get a grip of yourselves and a sense of perspective here. This is not RAFG or Odious or ISK. This is a front line camp where there is no place for civvies except when you get the chance to fly out on R&R.

Your comments make you a laughing stock! I bet on ARRSE they are having a great joke at your expense and as I said before, you are just re-inforcing all the stereotypes of a part-time, civvies in uniform service, more interested in getting to the Hotel, than in achieving the task. The RAF has spent years and a great deal of effort, through the hard work of many, to show it is a modern force equipped to deploy anywhere in the world and to fight and win. This issue justs puts all that effort back years.


Just do as you are flamin told and obey the lawful order!:ugh:

[Wader2]

Civvies in uniform! There.......I've said it!

Good spot Widger, spot on. We are indeed civvies in uniform. We all are be the uniform green, blue, brown, sandy or purple. We live in a western democratic society with free-elections and a civilan police force. We are not in a uniformed autocratic society under marshal law.

We recruit civilian volunteers, we train them in military affairs, and we retire them to civilian life. Indeed those that might become militarily institutionalised often have difficulty in returning to their civilian rootes - witness the stereotypical Major in Fawlty Towers and not just the homeless ex-serviceman..

[airborne_artist]

If you want to be in the military and work in civvies then join the SRR or do the hooligans' Selection :E

[PTT]

Widger

Yes, I do have a commissioning scroll. Yes, I have read it. QR's are there to be blindly obeyed, are they? Or is the "especial trust and confidence" HM reposes in us partly to do with our intelligent application of such regulations? I believe the scroll states that we are to "carefully and diligently" carry out our duties, not blindly and robotically.

I still fail to see why the wearing of uniform makes you any safer when inside a base which is "subject to regular mortar fire, in danger of attack 24/7, inside a country where there is effectively a low scale WAR going on". The uniform isn't fire retardant or bulletproof, and doesn't have it's own mortar shelter, so please tell me what the fuss is? So long as you have your ECBA and helmet then you have all the protection you possibly can carry with you. If the powers that be think the threat is higher then they can raise the alert state, double patrols or whatever it is they wish to do. Wearing uniform makes NO DIFFERENCE WHATSOEVER when in base and relaxing.

It is you who should get a grip of yourself and stop worrying about what other people are wearing and doing. They have no effect on you, so what is the problem? It's the whole authoritarian (as opposed to disciplined) side of the military, the "that's the way it's always been done therefore that's the way we'll do it now" ethos which hold us back and prevents us from learning from the 1000 years of mistakes which you so rightly brought up. Perhaps a change of perspective from the blindly following rules and regulations is what you need.

Personally I couldn't care less what they are saying on ARRSE. So long as I provide an effective SH service to them I doubt they give a sh!t what my stance on uniform when off duty is. I am a part of that modern force, I do deploy (VERY regularly) and I do fight and win. What the hell has that got to do with my wearing civvies when I'm not flying?

I do know exactly what your problem is here, Widger. You love Bullsh!t. Bullsh!t baffles Brains and all that crap. Well it's true - Bullsh!t does baffle Brains, beause Brains can't work out what the hell it is Bullsh!t is trying to achieve, and Brains suspects that Bullsh!t doesn't know either. All Brains does know is that Bullsh!t's efforts are doing nothing to achieve the stated aim of defeating the enemy.

Just do as you are flamin told and obey the lawful order!
That authoritarian is coming out in you there Widger.

[Maple 01]

Once again we are faced with that old cr@p about 'looking military' & Following regs to the letter = professional = important

The key to airpower is flexibility!

I've mentioned this several times but the more anally retentive amongst us still miss the point

During GW1 there was a series of photos in the RAF News from one of the sandy airfields of assorted plumbers, sooties and all going about the business of preparing jets to unleash hot-death on an unprepared enemy. They generally looked 'unconventional' in their dress, but they were working round the clock to get the job done in the finest traditions of the service

Shortly after a SWO from some remote station in the UK wrote in to complain about their 'piratical look' and how if they were on 'his' station they'd be up on charges bla bla importance of discipline bla bla. He obviously hadn’t noticed the difference between real ops and tacevals

A few weeks later an old boy who had been SENGO with the Desert Air Force back in 1943 tore into the SWO saying in his day he didn't give a toss what his boys looked like as long as they were comfortable, had adequate sun protection and were doing their job. He went on to say that what the guys in the field needed was support and leadership rather than pointless military bulls*it from those who had lost sight of why they were there in the first place

Anyone remember the morale crusher that was 'Normalisation' in the Falklands? Brought in for Army types and those seniors and officers that couldn't cope out of their comfort zone (and it was a small but vocal minority - my boss preferred to be greeted with a tea, a slice of toast and a 'morning boss' rather than a nice salute and a 'SIR')

[Wader2]

Anyone remember the morale crusher that was 'Normalisation' in the Falklands? Brought in for Army types and those seniors and officers that couldn't cope out of their comfort zone (and it was a small but vocal minority - my boss preferred to be greeted with a tea, a slice of toast and a 'morning boss' rather than a nice salute and a 'SIR')


Ah yes, that was the word. In Ascension a hats rule was introduced. Only senior officers all all 3 services ever wore them. The best of the rest wore KD slouch sun hats.

I heard after I left that they were planning to install a Regt Officer, DPMs and have ground defence exercises. Yeah, nice one.

[SID East]

I'm surprised with the levels of Desert kitting that I experienced that anyone has actually got enough to be able to wear it all the time!

(Unless the BAS laundry is now offering a 1 hour service!)

[Mr-AEO]

I should like to add, rather lately I admit, that the reason we had to all go round in uniform all the time was because we were at a heightened NBC state. Obviously, you can't be in correct full IPE in 3 minutes if you're wearing a short-sleeved t-shirt and flip-flops at the time of the raid/alarm.

I assume that the current NBC threat level is sufficiently low that you don't need to carry your suit/rezzy round with you all day? (PS - I admit, I don't have current ops experience from this statement!)

My point/question is not one in support of 'Thou must wear it because you are in Military etc' which is causing so much debate, it is more, "Are the rules there for a reason?" e.g - to allow you to get to the correct NBC protection level quickly?

[ProfessionalStudent]

Mr AEO

NBC threat at BAS negligible - except when the honey suckers come to empty the Portaloos. The room in your bag is much better used for civvies than for face welly and suits!:}

Certainly in my time there, it was a relief to get back after a chuffing long day, change out of my sweaty and stinking combats, shower, change into my t-shirt and shorts and pop to the bar for a wind-down drink. I always found that doing it this way rather than going to wind down in my smelly kit much more fulfillng and a much more satisfying way to relax. And surely that's the point? Some may be happy to reest all night, and that's fine. Some like to get changed, and that should be fine too? People should be able to choose. To my mind there is no difference in op effectiveness whether one is mortared in uniform or civvies.

We all have high levels of personal hygiene instilled in us during training and so surely it shows higher levels of personal discipline to make time to clean and freshen up before joining one's peers for some down time? So there you go, changing into civvies is actually more military than hanging around stinking in your combats.

And finally, if the Army get so jealous about the Crabs letting off a bit of steam, it must show better leadership to improve things for one's own troops, rather than crusade to force everyone to the base level. Those on duty, in uniform. Those off duty, wear what you like. Or should everyone be fully uniformed, fully tooled up and hot to trot "just in case" for 4/6 months solid?

[Wrathmonk]

Just remember, the Army sets the standards. Click here (http://www.arrse.co.uk/cpgn2/coppermine/displayimage/album=22/pos=13.html)!

:E

[Wader2]

Wrathmonk that is barefaced cheek. Away with you.:}

[PTT]

"Are the rules there for a reason?"
Well said, Mr-AEO. :D

Currently, as ProfessionalStudent (and my own experience) suggests, no.

[FireAxe]

Its not rocket science, we all have different opinions, if you wish to change into civvies then why not. What harm does it do? If you want to wear your uniform , crack on, but don't make the rest of us as well!!!

[Mr-AEO]

My vote, which is a slight reversal of my previous opinion (ahem) is that you can wear what you bloody like. There would appear to be no NBC threat (PS said so) and those that like to wear mil uniform all day/night are in the minority according to some. So Don aircrew issue Raybans (TM) or Oakleys and strut:cool:, don't forget your Animal/Quiksilver (TM) T-shirt/shorts and of course your Timberland (TM) slip-ons. After all, we wouldn't want you looking like a chav would we. Hopefully the station warrant will instill the correct 'label of the day'.

And if you are in the Eye Raq or Stan now in your strawberry mivvies... nice one, stay safe, come home soon.:ok:with a nice tan of course