FRI's for SAR rearcrew?

[bighead]

Rumour has it from last weeks SAR force conference that the rearcrew are to be offered 75K for a 5 year return to keep RAF SAR alive until the SAR H takes over.

Having seen them last week in the Sheffield floods I think that we should do everything we can to keep military SAR.

Keep up the good work :D

[mad eng]

75K....... that will be for the officers only I guess. NCA you can have £7.50...........and don't spend it all at once.
Keep up the good work, one day we all will be rewarded......

[microlight AV8R]

Does that mean that the venerable HAR.3 will have to soldier on for another 5 years? :eek:

I thought that one of the (supposed) benefits of this new fangled private finance stuff was to speed up the acquisition.

What sort of fatigue life remains ? Is it realistic to expect them to last that long?

I take my hat off to all military crews who continue to work miracles with old kit :ok:

[Winch-control]

The beautiful Seaking will soldier on for at least another 5 years; consider the procurement process in place else where. 75k to keep a half decent SAR pilot is quite rightly, good money. However, a far greater incentive will be required, one thinks, to retain the rearcrew! For many rearcrew (SAR) there are far better prospects outside now, than within, and those with the nonce/in the position to do so will move into other fields....:D

[[email protected]]

It's a great rumour and it is clear to anyone that looks (or wants to look) that rearcrew manning is in tatters and only going to get worse. I think they will have to do a lot better than £75K (which will be less than £50K after tax) if they want to keep being able to man the aircraft.

It's about time the value of the rearcrew was recognised by the MoD - sadly most of the RAF haven't got a clue about what we ask the guys to do on a regular basis.

As for the Sea King - 2017 is the OSD.

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Perhaps in light of what the rear crew guys are up to in both Op theaters this FRI should be considered for awarding across the whole of the rotary world, just the thoughts of a humble ex rotary now fixed wing planky basta@d rear crew type :ok:

[mad eng]

I like your thinking, they could even give it to all of us NCA, for "commonality". They might then end up having enough of us left in to do the jobs they want doing..........

Holding my breath!!!

Note to self: must remember to keep taking the pills

[shawtarce]

Unfortunately for the rear-crew on all our other aircraft types, who are working harder than ever, spending less time at home with their loved ones, and doing the country bloomin’ proud, there isn’t a civie company actively seeking to recruit them.

Not so with our SAR crews.

75K ( 45K after tax according to my maths ) will (once again) be great for the ones who were planning to stay in anyway, but not enough to make anyone change their mind about trying life outside. And as more people opt to leave, the manning decreases, the workload increases and before long, shift manning becomes impossible.

I’m not sure what the opposite of critical mass is, but I reckon we’re close.

DOOMED……WE’RE ALL DOOMED………….!

:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

[SaddamsLoveChild]

If any one is delusional enough to think that rearcrew will get an RFI then they must have been on the drugs carried in the blue and white bottle.

Why bother when there is tens of millions to be saved in year on the RAF budget , the force is gone in a very short period and any WSOp can do the job with enough training at Valley. Does the winchman have to be such a highly trained paramedic, not really, a paramedic/doctor from civvie street can be carried if a sufficiently trained military medic isnt available (a lot of first responders out there), and I am sure there continue to be a plethora of AE's and other ALM's from the SH force that would be glad of a break from Kinloss. How many are we talking about 10, 15 at most as not all are leaving. A decision just needs to be taken at high level to either throw people at the problem, let CHC/Bond in early or bin UK SAR for other than Mil Ops due to manning.

Either pay it to all rearcrew and it should be the same as the pilots, they are on the same cab picking up the same bodies. Let those that want to leave, go, give others the chance to do a very worthwhile job and save the money for more Operationally focussed equipment and quality of life issues, £75k will buy a lot of welfare kit at Bastion/Basra.

[[email protected]]

Saddams, unfortunately your simplistic answer to providing SAR rearcrew is typical of the muddled thinking that got us into manning crisis in the first place.

The SAR rearcrew and especially winchmen, are very highly trained and capable guys who can't be replaced by civvy medics - treating a casualty on a street is one thing, doing it on a sheer cliff or a heaving deck is entirely another. Not only have they got to be brave enough to go out of the door in the first place (ever tried a space walk?) but they have to be skilled enough to manage the casualty in the hostile environment they then find themselves in. Not much point winching a doctor to the deck if he either breaks a leg on arrival due to poor skills or starts throwing up once he gets there.

You just go and ask some of the AEs who have come from the Nimrod fleet and crewmen from SH just how easy they think it is on the SAR front line - it's hard work and often rather dangerous - they may not get shot at but they are still putting their pink bodies in harms way on a daily basis.

It's strange but almost all the critics of Mil SAR are those who have never done it - wonder why?

[SaddamsLoveChild]

Crab. Did it for 3 yrs and returned to SH, forgotten the number of space walks but enjoyed everyone. If we have to suffer a manning crisis then the pragmatic suggestion is that we reduce the service. Use the trained mil guy to recover the casualty to the aircraft anfd let the trained medic get on with it. If the casualty cant be treated before he gets to the aircraft then its a problem of risk Vs Cost. I am a yachtie and accept that there are risks when I am out in Fce 9 and it all goes wrong, some arse stuck on a cliff deserves what they get, its natural selection and I for one get really miffed when guys have to put their lives on the line for some chavs stupidity and ignorance. Of course the self protecting SARTU wouldnt entertain letting guys with less skills through the door and would continue to make life difficult for those wanting to cross over - empire protection me thinks.

The defence budget has to ge where its most needed, and it pains me to say it, but an FRI for SAR rearcrew would be nice but a waste of funds that we dont have.

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

Crab: :D

SLC,


any WSOp can do the job with enough training at Valley


Yes, that's always been the case! But that training (SARTU and, soon, the collocated OCU) takes more than a year, when combined with the medical trg - and that was before SARTU ran into the performance issues stemming from the engine failure last year, which seriously impedes the flying rate. So an 18-month (ish) lead time for new rearcrew is pretty hopeless when people are upping and leaving overnight (not an exaggeration - one rearcrew guy decided in late March to leave, and did his last shift in May).


throw people at the problem


...not feasible, see above


How many are we talking about 10, 15 at most


That's about the right figure - but when the entire SAR Force only has planned manning (we're already below it) of 60 rearcrew, that's one hell of a shortfall!


Either pay it to all rearcrew


Why? The manning crisis is in SAR rearcrew, and FRIs are targeted at specific groups. FRIs for all rearcrew would be fantastic, and a well-earned reward, but it won't ever happen unless the manning reaches the same crisis point that SAR manning has.

[sikeano]

Too late for me I have Joined an Airline :{

[shawtarce]

SaddamsLoveChild:

I am a yachtie and accept that there are risks when I am out in Fce 9 and it all goes wrong, some arse stuck on a cliff deserves what they get, its natural selection and I for one get really miffed when guys have to put their lives on the line for some chavs stupidity and ignorance.

So let me get this correct, you are in a force 9 gale, your mast snaps, your engines are flooded and your first thought is "I guess this my own fault" I'm sure you wouldn't even think of tuning your radio to channel 16 and crying for help.....

And if you really think that everyone we rescue from cliffs are arses, chavs or stupid, then you sir, are an appendage of the highest order. They’re called accidents, and I for one am proud to be given the responsibility to help out anyone in that situation.

I think your reply is probably the most ridiculous I have ever seen on this forum, and that’s saying something.

Have done it for 3 yrs and forgotten the number of space walks

I really hope you are not still doing it for many many reasons.

[No Vote Joe]

It would appear that an FRI won't happen.

Allegedly (from the man at PMA, or whatever it is now), an FRI requires a manning level of less than 80% (close, but not there yet) and a PVR rate of more than 15% (close, but not there yet either).

An FRI paid in 12/18 months time may be too late, and would be slamming that stable door long after Dobbin has gone walkies, but until the rates hit the above it won't be entertained. :ugh:

[SaddamsLoveChild]

I am not saying dont pick up the people from accidents, yes I would dial up CH 16 and ask for help, but I would accept whatever service was provided however good or bad, - Caribbean SAR is a small chap in a small boat with a Lloyds open form by the way. What I am saying is that the SAR Force do the best that they can with the people they get. And the general public should not continue to expect the level of service that they get now. It is also about natural selection for some accident victims but under H&S we cant use that excuse any more. And also the fact that YOU the SARF have always performed above and beyond but because of the present situation will no longwer be able to. Its a fact we are short of money and giving it to a minority to stem the tide of PVR is a waste.

I wish you safe flying and hope that you can see the futility of the financial gesture. What will help is the fact that Fg Pay will become pensionable in the non to distant future as a retention incentive across the board for all aircrew.

[No Vote Joe]

the general public should not continue to expect the level of service that they get now.

Political dynamite, dear chap.

Joe Public would be up in arms if the service he has now is severely depleted and reduced to man and pay for 2 Ops that he doesn't really care about, and doesn't really agree with!

Can see it now, PQ's about the climber that dies on the Ben (Lossie not available, no crews), or the kiddy that has severe brain damage due to lack of oxygen after an allergic reaction following a bee sting on a remote beach in Pembroke (Chiv not available, no crews).

Now then Mr Brown, your reaction, please!

[[email protected]]

Nice sentiments Sadamslovechild - may I suggest that you really are in the wrong job.

[samuraimatt]

Can see it now, PQ's about the climber that dies on the Ben (Lossie not available, no crews), or the kiddy that has severe brain damage due to lack of oxygen after an allergic reaction following a bee sting on a remote beach in Pembroke (Chiv not available, no crews).

Now then Mr Brown, your reaction, please!

I don't suppose Mr Brown would really care. As for said child maybe the parents could ask why Helimed 57 the Welsh Air Ambulance is maybe not available.
How many questions do you think get asked when Lossiemouth's 1st and 2nd standby are U/S? Lots I hear you say, but that's only because of the fast jet activity in and around Lossiemouth's patch. If maybe they are off for a while I guess they could fly a cab up from Boulmer to help out.

[No Vote Joe]

I don't suppose Mr Brown would really care. As for said child maybe the parents could ask why Helimed 57 the Welsh Air Ambulance is maybe not available.
How many questions do you think get asked when Lossiemouth's 1st and 2nd standby are U/S? Lots I hear you say, but that's only because of the fast jet activity in and around Lossiemouth's patch. If maybe they are off for a while I guess they could fly a cab up from Boulmer to help out.


Air Ambulances cannot get to some places that Queenies can, because they do not have a winch.

Most SAR Flts go Off State now and again, but it will be for technical problems with the airframes. They never go off state because they cannot provide the crews. Most SAR Guys are spending a lot of Motorway hours at the mo propping up the shift plots all over the country.

Lets just hope it's not you or SLC that the PQ refers to!

[Could be the last?]

There are a number of issues here, and 75k will not solve all of them. It would be nice but the chances of it happening......

If it is a time through trg problem, why not employ a paramedic within the crew? Remove the excessive trg burden and employ the rearcrew for flying and a medic for the blood and guts?

My understanding is that the SAR Force is in existance to support mil ops; therefore, anything else is a bonus. So, the unfortunate who is stuck on a cliff or in a gail force storm etc, get what they are given, and if it is a scoop and run sortie, so be it.

Going back to the 75k, if the NCA within the SAR Force are not happy with their lot, maybe they could return to the CHK, ME or the Pu. Then a whole 10 shifts per month wont be so bad!!!!!!!:ok:

[Megawart]

There's absolutely no point in arguing over the merit of one group or skill set being offered an FRI...the truth is that we're all hurting and the Airlines and civilian helicopter companies are all ramping up, most with offers which are very hard to resist. With every single person that leaves, the rest of us are left to pick up the increased burden. The first recipients of FRI2 are now reaching the end of the 5 year 'lock in' period, what will they do then?
If we fight amongst each other, pointlessly arguing over who is hurting the most then we will be divided and conquered.
The top brass need to wise up to the fact that we are hemorrhaging good guys like blood from a hemophiliac (whole SH crews, Nimrod QFI's, Truckies, SAR crews, fast jet mates and I gather the AAC are not at all happy at the moment) - and if the military can't solve the problems which are pushing people out, then they should at least compensate us ALL for the shared pain.
I say FRI for ALL aircrew and pensionable flying pay for ALL.
Megawart
Oh! And another thing before I forget! If we're all doing our own administration now (JPA), how come the X-Factor was not increased to compensate for all of the extra work?

[[email protected]]

Could be - an NHS paramedic earns less than £20K, do you really think they will be queueing up to fly (with all the attendant dangers) without being paid as much as a SAR winchman? If you then say that they don't need to go on the wire, who will stabilise the casualty (needing medical skills to do so) before they are winched up to the helo.

If only it were just a pay thing - but the mismanagement of rearcrew by PMA and the constant dicking around to fill the shift plot instead of admitting there is a problem and being more flexible with seconds are equal contributors to their PVR rate.

Just remember, we are only stretched, not overstretched.........bo**ocks

[Sven Sixtoo]

Crab
Careful with kissing off seconds there. Its been a cornerstone of your argument elsewhere.:)
But you do have a point.
NVJ
And its not just lack of a hoist that limits air ambulances. Hoist requires trained crew, equipment and aircraft performance to match, all of which costs a great deal of money. Likely the wrong side of the cost-benefit analysis for most air ambulances (which are charities remember - they probably dream about having the military's funding problems). Also air ambulances, with a 2 and a bit ton downwash and a 30-odd ft rotor diameter, can go lots of places you wouldn't want to put a Sea King.
Sven

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

If it is a time through trg problem, why not employ a paramedic within the crew? Remove the excessive trg burden and employ the rearcrew for flying and a medic for the blood and guts?



On top of the points Crab makes, how much do you think an NHS paramedic wants to go to the Falklands? Or do secondary duties? Besides, having non-aircrew on the crew would be a hindrance - the rearcrew would have to spend their time looking out for the paramedic instead of doing nav assist/radar/radios etc. To train paramedics to go on the wire would increase the 'excessive training burden'; if they don't go on the wire, then you'd need a fifth crew member to be a 'dope-on-a-rope-with-no-medical-skills'.


Going back to the 75k, if the NCA within the SAR Force are not happy with their lot, maybe they could return to the CHK, ME or the Pu. Then a whole 10 shifts per month wont be so bad!!!!!!!:ok:


Nice try - but that's an empty threat. Any aircrew with SAR experience would be lapped up by CHC etc, so any SAR NCA warned to 'man up or go SH' would simply vote with their feet.

[[email protected]]

Sven62, I take your point re 2nds but the rearcrew plot is broken and every injury or personal problem just twists the knife - I have discovered in the past that the only way to get something changed in the military is by failing to achieve the task - then the career-minded take notice!

Maybe we should just admit defeat and go for the £70K, 8 shifts a month, no 2nds, nights spent at home if you live close enough, no Falklands, no threat of SH plus extra cash if the shift plot changes - which appears to be the tragic lot of the MCA crews:)

[NavyTorque]

Crab at SAVN don't be so arrogant to think that the MCA would want you. The service to the MCA is likely to be provided by either Bristows or CHC - both of these companies watch your negative comments regarding civilian SAR (existing / transistion / harmonisation) on a regular basis; and like me are bored to tears of you and your twisted opinions!

EDIT: Do NOT use names on PPRuNe.

[snaggletooth]

Lorks a lummy! Did she just use a real name in open court? How very very dare you! :=
Illegitimi non carborundum Crab :ok:

[leopold bloom]

Seriously bad form!:=

[No Vote Joe]

Now then, NavyTorque, quite a few of us know who Crab is, for better or for worse!!!! But to disrobe him to the masses is really not cricket. :=

Would you care to remove your mask for us all see, rather than hiding behind a Nom de Prune? :)

No? Then feel well and truely chastised.

[sarboy99]

Very offside NavyTorque, those of us who know Crab respect him as an excellent pilot/captain/instructor. He may be opinionated but he has the best interests of SAR at heart. Besides how do you know what Bristows/CHC etc think? Back in your box or clear off back to sea.:=

[[email protected]]

Oh No!!! I have been outed on PPrune, how will I ever cope?

NavyTorque - if you ever bothered to try and understand what I have written in my posts you might find I am not 'anti' anyone but that I have just stood up for the capabilities of RAFSAR (and the Navy on occasion).

Sarboy99 - thanks for that - the cheque's in the post:)