407 starter/igniter

[docstone]

Interested if anyone has had any sticky igniter problems - our machine has had an intermittent igniter problem and yesterday refused to latch (bit no hot start, FADEC initiated shut down)?

[bayou06]

YES! I had this problem on my B407 last winter. I was stuck for two days on a toad stool in the GOM when she refused to latch during the start. After numerous attempts (varying the amount of time depressing the start switch), the battery croaked.

Maintenance came out and to make a long story short, changed all of the start and FADEC relays along with a battery & battery connector. I only got it started after depressing the starter switch exactly 10 seconds. Maintenance then replaced the ECU and everything was fine for a week or so. Then the problem started again, but not as severe (you would have to make 2-3 attempts to get it to finally latch). Maintenance then solved the problem when they cleaned and dried every cannon plug in the FADEC system. Remember, this was during the winter in the GOM, lots of rain. It seems after days and days of rain, some moisture can seep into the cannon plugs, causing problems. After that, with the mechanics drying out the cannon plugs after extensive rain, I've had no problems.

[vaqueroaero]

We have a 407 that seems to have a mind of it's own.

It will start fine for weeks and then inexplicably start to mess around. This includes Fadec aborted starts, but the temperature gets no where close to 843. Other times it will latch, but not light off. On about the forth or fifth try it will latch, light off and start normally. We think it might be an HMU problem, but haven't swapped it out yet to see if that solves the problem.

We are also using Fadec version 5.356.( the new version)

[Soft-n-Plane]

Gentlemen,

1. When these problems occur, do you have the following advisory lights illuminated during the start sequence:

Auto Relight and Start (White)?

2. Do you hear the igniters operating?

[docstone]

Sometimes the igniter doesn't light, usually does.....but yesterday it seemed to light but not latch. Engineering chaps confidence its just the box which they've replaced - all limbs crossed that solves it. Thanks eveyone for their experience.

[Old Skool]

I had a similar problem a long while back, it started after an engine change. It wasn't a piston park problem, the engine would spool up to around 15% N1 but not light off.
If memory serves me right it was something to do with fuel injector alignment? Somekind of alignment!, maybe the techs were feeding me a line to get rid of me!
I'll ask at work, it was a long while ago though.

[S92mech]

As said by Old Skool, fuel nozzle shimming can cause no start and/or delayed light off problems. However it won't cause the start relay to fail to latch. One of the most common causes for not latching, other than faulty relays, is the power lever angle rigging. If this is off by as little as .1 degree the FADEC will not see the throttle in the idle position. The rigging must be checked using the laptop computer. If this rigging is off the fly dedent rigging will probably be incorrect also.

[MightyGem]

Latch?????

[BlenderPilot]

bayou06 wrote . . . .
YES! I had this problem on my B407 last winter. I was stuck for two days on a toad stool in the GOM when she refused to latch during the start. After numerous attempts (varying the amount of time depressing the start switch), the battery croaked.
What company leaves you with their machine on a Toad Stool for two days?? I would twist someones neck if they left me out on a Toad Stool for two days.
If it refuses to latch, well dont' tell anybody I said this, but if you knew that the starter would come on and off with the switch, why not just hold it there until it started? If fuel wasn't introduced well, Fadec, Manual and modulate the start just like an L model. (I am fully aware that this is an unapproved method under normal circumstances, but in the manual it says something about using this procedure of manual start in an emergency, and being stuck on a Toad Stool for two days is an emergency to me!, forget food and water, and freezing to death, what worries me is NO INTERNET!!)
If the battery went dead, well, go get the navaid batteries and use those for starting, when it happened to me I dragged two of those suckers upstairs and made some neat little jumpers with the navaid battery cables, and off I went!!

[somepitch]

i don't know if this is true, but i heard somewhere that bell has only ever attempted a FADEC manual start in the 407 three times, and cooked the engine twice.

[BlenderPilot]

somepitch wrote . . . .i don't know if this is true, but i heard somewhere that bell has only ever attempted a FADEC manual start in the 407 three times, and cooked the engine twice.

I am absolutely sure this is not true, that engine starts exactly the same as an L model engine in manual mode, you modulate it just the same and starts pretty much just the same, there is a section on the Bell 407 manual that describes the procedure for a manual start, if it was such a big risk there wouldn't be a section on the FM describing how to do it.

But to clarify this section that describes the manual start begins by telling you that a manual start is only to be used in only two conditions, Emergencies OR under special permit of a LOCAL aviation authority, so for example if the local Mexican DGAC inspector says "yeah go ahead and do it" then you are legal to go.

Now describe "emergency" for which a Manual Mode start would be required? Is there such a clear definition of this emergency?
Being stuck on a Toad Stool in the winter overnight with no shelter, food or water would sure as h . . . qualify for a Manual Start, in many peoples book!

[somepitch]

blender,

thanks for the clarification, i'm not very familiar with the 407 fm...like i said, someone told just told me the engine cooking story...:bored:

[lartsa]

i belive the 407 has the same kit as the md 600 they also have problems with the igniter box when they start giving problems they will start a few times then stop
if you bang on the top of the igniter box you are liable to get a few extra starts just like you also used to do with your starter motor on the car

i have manually started the 600 without any problems you just need to be carefull but thats a different fault altogether

mark

[McGowan]

Have had that problem a couple of times, all different reasons, including, ignitor box failure, fuel nozzle shimming and a solenoid not latching the starter. When the inginter failed, we had the start light on intermittently. Very hard to hear the igniters over the engine starting.
I've also had no start light on during the start sequence as a solenoid failed. Engine started without problem.
A bit off the subject, but has anyone had fuel guage problems. I've had a blank fuel guage after the "BIT" but it seems to fix itself after engine start. I know that the fuel signal conditioner will blank the fuel guage if it detects a problem, but as usual, it never happens while an engineer is standing there. There is also no recording of the problem by the fuel signal conditioner.

Any answers??????

[docstone]

Not seen that with the fuel gauges sorry.

Our igniter box swopped out, so far so good - thanks everyone.

[lartsa]

on the 600 the fuel gauge can go to zero when the radio is being keyed when on the ground never noticed it the air