South African Airlink - What are their future plans?

[Speedbird59]

I'm interested to know about the future of civil aviation in southern Africa. I noticed that South African Airlink have committed to an order of 30 Embraer 135 aircraft and their website doesn't state that they will be a replacement for the Jetsreams. Surely this is a huge increase in the fleet even if they did scrap the Jetstreams so is the future rosey and surely they will need people to fly them?

Just out of interest does any one know the salaries of a junior F/O could expect to earn with SA Airlink on either the Jetsream or the EMB 135?

[highflying]

Um on the link issue they are expending i heard they are also moving some flights to grand central casue they are not getting slot times at FAJS requriements for link I think is 200 ME time not sure about how much turbine at the moment they are not looking but how knows in the new year and pay well they guys i know there are not doing to bad but don't expect too much money

[4g_handicap]

Hi guys,

Airlink does indeed have big plans. I have the privilege of working for them on the ERJ-135.

Their main plan of action is to forge strategic alliances with carriers in various African countries. An example of such is a recent alliance with a company called Flywell in Zimbabwe(soon to be called Airlink Zimbabwe). This allows Link access to various routes, that they would not otherwise be able to operate.

The ERJ project is an expansion plan and I think will ultimately take over the J41's I believe the J41 are to be phased out over a 7 year period starting in about 2 years time.

Some of this is conjecture based on rumours floating around the company, but a lot of it is also fact.

Airlink did have plans to operate from Grand Central, not because of lack of slots(this is not Heathrow), but because they wanted to fly direct to Cape Town, which would have been in direct competition to SAA. The idea of GC-CT would have been aimed at a niche market.Unfortunately our National Carrier thought that this might well succeed and that would of course impact on their profitibility. Since SAA already feels bad enough about costing the taxpayer R2 million per day, they prevented Link from doing it.

In terms of experience requirements for Link - it varies, depending on the operational requirements of the day. Sometimes they are looking for guys suitable for quick promotion to command(J41). They will then take guys with say 2500 hours. Other times they may need guys that can just do the FO's job and not cost too much - then they will take lesser experienced guys. So requirements vary, It would be safe to say that a guys must have at least a Comm + Multi + IF rating before even applying. Please note I do not speak for the Chief Pilot - this is merely my observations.

The pay is not good and they make no bones about it. Lets face it the guys are not here for the money, and I don't think better pay will reduce pilot turnover. Airlink are here to make a profit and that is what they will tell you on the first day. You will be paid more working for SAX, but then they sponge off the taxpayer the same way that SAA does. Airlink is a privately owned company. SAA does own a 10% share, but they do not subsidise us in any way.

Well to answer the question, a Junior First Officer earns about R9400 per month(the company does not contribute to medical aid or provident fund ie it all comes out of your pay)

When you reach 2000 hours(I am not sure if you need an ALTP) you the become a First Officer and earn about R12800 per month. By the way, the equivalent at SAX earns about R17500.

Anyway, I hope this fill you guys in. The ERJ is great to fly and I love every minute of it. The future does look good, if they can pull their plans off.

[The Guvnor]

Just to put that in context for UK readers: junior FOs earn around £600 per month and FOs £800 per month. Out of those sums comes medical fund, provident and tax, which comes to around 50 - 60%.

Rumour has it you can buy a medium sized Free State town for the same price as a semi in Dulwich! :D :D :D

Beer is 40p a pint.

[4granted]

With the Euro aviation market the way it is at the moment 600-800 pounds sounds better than squat to fly EMB135/J41 for a nice domestic airline....
:rolleyes:

[The Claw]

4g-handicap: Could you possibly tell me how the ERJ is sizing up to SAX's CRJ? In particular maintenance and the African conditions. (Hot 'n high etc.)

[4g_handicap]

The Claw,

Only with pleasure - however, remember that I am biased.

The ERJ is an awesome aircraft, in particular the 135 that we fly. It has big engines, so performance is excellent and it leaves the CRJ looking like it is looking for parking. Also the EFIS is way ahead of the CRJ - in fact, I climbed into the CRJ the other day and my impression was cramped cockpit and the "Glass Cockpit" looks like a retrofit.

As to performance, to give you an idea :-

we can takeoff out of Johannesburg Int Airport(5500' elev) on a 35 deg C day at structural TO weight - then climb staright to service ceiling in under 20 min. :D :D :D
Unfortunately between 35 deg C and the operating limit of ISA+35(39 Deg C), we do have to condider WAT limits, probably losing upto 700kgs(MTOW 19990 kg)

The CRJ have had some misfortune with their engines - when they got the a/c they changed the engine compters to give better hot 'n high performance and in doing so managed to seriously damage the engines, to the extent that they now really have to mollycoddle them.

To compare, out of Cape Town, if they were to takeoff ahead of us by 2 minutes with 15 pax and we were to takeoff at Max TOW, we would be at FL370 before they made it to FL330. In fact I often hear them at FL280(Yuk thats where we would be if we had an engine failure)

Also out of Eros(a small airport in Windhoek, Namibia), which has a 2000m runway and also at 5500' elev, we can take a full load(37 pax) to Cape Town(2 hrs flying time), with reserves for Port Elizabeth(about 1 h 10). With that load we would probably do a reduced thrust takeoff out of Eros, depending on the actual figures of the day. :eek: :eek: :eek:
Of course the poor CRJ often has to reposition to Windhoek International because they can't carry their load. I would be lying to you if I said I knew what they can carry, but I know they struggle.

From a maintenance point of view I can't tell you much, except that the aircraft are brand new(I flew one with 30 hours on it the other day), so they are still under warranty. Any major problems are therefore for Embraer to sort out. The aircraft is very modular ie just about anything can be sorted out by changing a particular "black box" This make for good reliability. There have been 1 or 2 occasions where the required spare was not in stock and this has kept the aircraft grounded for 24 hours or so. I think that as we get more aircraft, so we will be building up more stocks. Also I think Airlink has some deal with Embraer where the maintenance is paid for by the hour(Power by the Hour), which reduces the risk of problems. In fact we have a store, with complete engines in it, that belongs to Rolls Royce)

Anyway, I hope that helps - it really is a nice plane to fly - it is a nice simple aeroplane and very easy to fly. It is also the right aeroplane for Africa with those big engines. However, time will tell.

Regards
:)

[The Claw]

4g_handicap:- Many thanks for your input. At the time of the SAX choice of aircraft many people thought that the ERJ was a better choice. I was just curious to see if the ERJ was holding up to these expectations! (Not forgeting the SAAB, which was another favourite) :p

[4g_handicap]

The CLaw,

Another thought is the cost of the aircraft. I dunno what the CRJ cost, but I am led to believe that US$ 11 million that we are paying per ERJ is quite cheap.

So far we have only been operating for about 8 months, so it is still early days.

Regards
:cool:

[Speedbird59]

Thanks guys for your interesting replies to my original questions. I guess I feel left out given the biggest aircraft I have flown so far is a Cherokee six!

It would be interesting to hear what people think of the Jetsreams. Back in the UK a good friend of mine is a Type Rating Examiner on the Jetstream, based at Woodford near Manchester. He thinks they're excellent to fly.

Anyway once again thanks for the info.

[The Claw]

Speedbird59, apologies for hijacking your thread.

4g ; During the early days of the CRJ, it was not doing so well! As for costs, there was a lot of behind the scenes fiddling so one doesn't really know the true price that SAX paid. In my opinion, they are still "paying" the price. :mad:

[4g_handicap]

Hi guys,

Yes - sorry speedbird59, we have hijacked your thread, but I didn't think you would mind, since we are here to create discussion.

Also we have all been at your stage, so please don't feel left out - do you have aspirations for an aviation career, or is it a hobby?

To answer your question about J41 - I have never flown it, but I have flown in it and will gladly give my observations. It is a great performer - it certainly goes, and leaves the Dash-8(SAX again) standing. They TAS at about 280 knots. Also the water meths injection(not standard on a J41, but we have 3 or 4 so equiped) gives it great short field performance. We use it at Nelspruit, which has a 900m runway & temperatures routinely hit 30 deg C

On the down side, BAe have put out a SB that reduces performance on J41 with props that have over 6000hours. This translates into a payload loss of just over 600kgs which is a lot on a 29 seat aircraft(this can be upto half the available pax load at times) Also another problem is the the J41 is the only aircraft that uses a certain model of Macauley prop. Since the J41 is no longer in production we cannot obtain any more props. This has seriously damaged the viability of the J41 in our operation, and I suspect that if BAe cannot come up with solutions, then the J41 may be on it's way out even faster than anticipated. :( :(

The Claw, I think you may be right about SAX, however at least one friend of mine that flies the CRJ claims that they are a valuable asset, since there is a big waiting list, and the rand/dollar exchange rate - blah, blah blah. I dunno if it's true.

Also, just to do a bit of rumour mongering. There is a strong possibility that SAX & Airlink will merge sometime next year. The experts are doing their homework and I think they will go ahead if they can iron out all the potential problems.

Regards :cool:

[Speedbird59]

hi Guys

Don't for one minute think you've hijacked this thread. Thanks for your insider views which is something I'm really interested in.

On the subject of the ERJ I have heard from pilot mates in the UK lots of not so complimentry things said. Ironically its from people who don't fly them. Having said that most operators over there fly the bigger 145, which I assume has the same engines as the smaller 135. Hence the performance is not as impressive.

From everything I have heard so far it seems the future is quite promising for Airlink. I sure hope the sinking rand doesn't eat too much into profitability. Perhaps in a years time when I have a frozen ATPL I could have a right hand seat on the Jetstream.......

[Speedbird59]

Another question I have just thought of given I'm at the stage I'm at in my flying right now.

What is the view taken of newly qualified guys with say 400 hours who pay for their own type rating? I know it's been discussed very much in the Wannabees forum but that has a largely British perspective.

thanks again for your help

[4g_handicap]

Speedbird59,

Your idea of paying for type rating is something that I think is quite big in USA - you often see adverts for flight schools there that offer a type rating on, say a Metroliner, with the opportunity to than build block hours on the aircraft at a reasonable rate. In other words you pay for the rating and then pay to fly the right seat for a company. They normaly advertise the rate at something like 100 hours for $89 per hour.

It is also an idea that is gaining momentum here in South Africa. At least 1 operator I know of will let you pay for a C208(Caravan) rating and then they send you into Africa to fly P2 for them(they don't make you pay for the hours though). Generally they will advance you the money and then deduct it from your salary over a 6 month period.

Some people in the industry don't like these kinds of operators because they feel it is exploitation. I am not sure this is the case though. Operators have the right to try and make a profit and recent changes to legislation in South Africa has made operators put co-pilots into a C208 or King Air(Any turbine for that matter). This means a considerable cost burden for no benefit(Safety benefits notwithstanding). The right seat on a turbine is a saleable commodity, so why not let the operator turn it to his advantage. I would have jumped at the opportunity 5 years ago.

Of course a company like Link would never consider a person paying for a type rating(they do have a training bond though, which you must pay back if you leave prematurely).

Anyway, Speedbird. I seem to recall reading in a thread somewhere that you are doing a PPL in Cape Town. Is that right. Maybe we should get together for a drink when I nightstop there.

Regards
:)

[4g_handicap]

Oh yes, and on the issue of the ERJ. The 145, you are quite correct - it's performance is somewhat more sedate, but still a nice aeroplane.

The only downside to the ERJ's that I know of are they are slightly noisy due to lack of isulation, and they are prone to an irritating little dutch roll, which is only really noticable at the back, so it doesn't really bother the driver too much.

Regards
:rolleyes:

[The Claw]

4g: The rumour of a SAX/Airlink merger has been going for years. Even when I was with SAX. Since SAX is essentially a political operation, I believe that you are correct, although I believe that it will quietly merge into SAA.(Maybe with parts sold to Airlink) I certainly don't see Airlink taking on "suspect" management at SAX. Once again my opinion!

SAX was looking at the ERJ-145.

Rgds, :eek: :eek:

[4g_handicap]

The Claw,

Well, I have only been with Link a short while, so I cannot claim any great expertise, but the rumours seem to be hotting up. An outside consulting company has been appointed to research the matter and we have been told by management that they have to come up with the answers by the end of March. I suspect that Link & SAX will become one and will probably take over the whole domestic market(maybe using ERJ 170&190 :p ) with SAA doing just international routes(well thats what we hope for - we can dream).

I think there are going to be major problems with a merger, not the least being the differences in salary scales of the pilots.

What did you do at SAX?

Regards
:)

[Speedbird59]

4g

Thanks again for your info. Your offer of a drink is very kind and I'd love to meet up at some point. Can I email you at the address in your profile to sort out at a time etc.

4g & The Claw

Something else I'd be interested to know is about the SAA cadets. Obviously I'm unable to apply for the scheme, given my pommie nationality but the SAA Pliots website states they serve and "internship" with SA Airlink or SAX. Just out if interest I wonder if either of you have flown with them and what you think the general standard of them is.

A local pilot friend of mine reckons they're all complete fools. Anyway again I can only rely on a second hand info, however one thing that perplexes me is why they train them over in Australia. Nothing against BAE systems in Adelaide but surely schools such as 43 should be up to the job of equipping local pilots with ATPLs shouldn't they???

[The Claw]

4g: Very interesting, keep me posted! Politics run deep at SAX, going back to the demise of Flitestar(Now there is a can of worms!)

59; Having done my training with Jim Davis before 43(Thats the school, NOT the year!?), I agree that 43 should be more than capable. As for the SAA Cadets. I can only comment about the first couple of groups at SAX. Sure they lacked experience, but most of them where pretty good in my opinion. They certainly took a lot of stick from the ex-SAAF guys, but then one or two of the SAAF guys left a lot to desire. :rolleyes:

[Three Holer]

Just a question to 4g_handicap.

Is Link operating out of Eros using proper airfield analasys or do the pilots spend the lengthy time requiered before every t\o getting into the books. Sound like another Nelspruit operation.

[4g_handicap]

Hi guys,

Three Holer,

One could take offence at such remarks - I hope you are not implying that our Nelspruit operation is illegal?

Nope no manual(olden day stuff)We have a computer program that gives us RTOW's for EROS. We put into it the length, elevation and slope, as well as on obstacle profile. It gives us a printout showing the weights for spread of temperatures and wind. We have one for each runway(runway 19 obstacle limited rather than length), as well as flap setting and whether we are using reduced thrust or full.

Basically out of Eros on runway 01 with a temp of 28, we lose about 1500kgs off our structural MTOW.

SAX has also questioned our figures(we do the route at their behest) and we have had the factory test pilot out here from Brazil looking into it for us and he has come back and said we are too conservative in our figures, so looks like we will be up-ing them.

About Nelspruit - Link has gone to great effort to specialy certify the J41 for operation there, including using only aircraft fitted with water meths injection. Also, they are very strict about payload limits. They were there the other day getting the CAA to re-declare the clearway(something to do with those props again). The whole operation enjoys the benefit of Bae's blessing.


Speedbird59 - sure feel free to e-mail me anytime. About the cadets - I don't know much and have never flown with them. Their intake criteria is very high - in fact I am not sure I would have been successful had I applied, and they are undergoing some of the very best training in the world, so I am sure they not a bunch of fools. I also think SAX did not want them at one stage because of some or other problem, but they are also competing with pilots that have 4 times their experience.(SAX wouldn't even talk to me before I had 1000 hours)

There has been a lot to say about why the training went to Australia - I am sure SAA had good reason(not the least being an objective assesment ie they don't want to be accused of racism should a non-white be thrown off the course). I know the ground school is done here(I think 43)

I will certainly keep you updated claw, but I think things are just going to be gossip for the next 3 months. Link at this stage is also a political hot potato - internal politics with the pilots. The J41 drivers are not impressed about guys coming in from outside the company to fly the ERJ.

ANyway, see ya all later

:)

[Spool-up]

I assume that the originators opinion does not reflect that of the majority of pilots at SAAL.

Such an offensive attitude is most certainly "noted". This is a very small community.

Your "opinions" are both inaccurate, as well as "stroppy".

Tone down before you spoil things for more than just yourself in the upcomming "get together".

[Spool-up]

Pardon me Speedbird59, the last posting from myself was actually aimed at 4g_handicap.

[4g_handicap]

Spool-up,

I seem to have offended you - perhaps I am too much in awe of my aeroplane. Also perhaps too much lighthearted jest.

I would be interested to hear what is offensive about my attitude, as well as what I have said that is inaccurate. I am always open to correction. I have never claimed to know everything, and I certainly thought I made it clear in my posts that opinions are my own, and not that of anybody else.

[The Claw]

Spool-up; We all know that there is two sides to every story. The days of the broederbond are over, one is entitled to one's opinion. Or is this what SAA teach's ,if you can't beat them on merit, then use "bully-boy" tactic's? :mad:

4g; nothing wrong with being loyal to Airlink, they have come a long way under difficult conditions.

[Speedbird59]

Thanks for your posts guys,

Personally I think there's been some interesting contributions especially from 4g.

I think if we were all sat around having a beer there would be no harsh words....the internet is great but the medium has it's limitations as a form of communication.

I think we have covered a wide range of interesting issues. So thanks again guys!!

[The Claw]

Speedbird59: I have to agree, it has been interesting and thank you for starting the thread and allowing me to hijack it!?!

You are probably right, it would be a good discussion. Especially after sinking a few Castles! :D :D

[kuzzin]

Hey! Spool Up.. your attitude sucks,talk about getting "stroppy!"
Wind your neck in and enjoy some interisting comms.
Or is that the STD attitude at "SAAL?"
Rabbit,Rabbit,Rabbit
4g Your enthusiasm is great to see..hope the Rogers and Barrys appreciate..
Howzzit!!!

[4g_handicap]

Ok guys, thanks for the support - I feel better now.

Claw, here is a link to yesterdays newspaper(The Star), where there was a report on the proposed merger. Looks to be hotting up.


SAA, Airlink & SAX Merger article (http://www.busrep.co.za/general/busrep/br_newsview.php?click_id=343&set_id=60&art_id=ct20011211201950535P562179)

Off on a nightsop, so chat to you guys tommorrow.

Regards
:)

[The Claw]

Thanks 4g; Looks like I was wrong!? Can't help but cringe when I hear the names ******* and ***. They seem to be feathering their "empire" quite nicely. :eek:

I'm sorry Claw, but I can't let this excellent thread be turned into a sniping exercise.

[ 13 December 2001: Message edited by: 4HolerPoler ]

[The Unteleported Man]

Whoahh!!!! 4 Holerpoler that was a bit heavy handed man. That is if what you left behind reflects the original post accurately.

These guys are public figures and peole are entitled to a reasonably expressed opinion...

[The Claw]

4HolerPoler; I have to agree that this is an excellent thread, but I'm surprised that you didn't object when Coleman was used as a fall guy.

Nothing like a heated debate?

:eek: :rolleyes: :eek:

[Speedbird59]

Just a thought guys re SAA.

Its seems that whilst SAA is state owned, privately owned operators will struggle. I mean the likes of Airlink and Comair tradionally make a profit only for them to pay corporation tax to pay for SAA's losses.

The Claw, re. the Castle's after today they just got about 10% cheaper.....a beer for 28p beggers belief but it's true. My mates back home (UK) can't believe we have it so good. Then I spoil it by telling them most people earn about R5000 per month here or less than £300(not pilots of course).

[The Claw]

Speedbird59; 28p??????? I'm paying £3.99 for four Castles over here!?! What time is the next flight? :confused:

[ 14 December 2001: Message edited by: The Claw ]

[4g_handicap]

Hi guys,

Claw, come visit - just think of all the castles you could afford to buy us!

Speedbird59 - now you really want to open a can of worms. You hit the nail on the head.

At the risk of further enraging Spool-up and possibly ruining my career - it is very difficult for any airline to compete. Airlink has enjoyed success due to it's association with SAA(I think purely because of the reservation system that bring us so many of our pax).

I should apologise to you guys - my statement that our National Carrier loses R2 million a day was inaccurate it is in fact only R1.97 million. That is soooo much better.

I am sure you guys have heard the joke about SAA & Comair(specially adapted for this thread).

Two B737 are at the holding point with SAA being in front and dealing with some minor snag - of course the Comair aircraft ask "How long" to which SAA responds "only 3 or 3 minutes".
Well 5 minutes go passed and the Comair Captain getting impatient chirps the SAA aircraft "You are aware, Sir, that we pay for our fuel".
To which the quick witted SAA captain replied "Well, you are paying for ours too" :D :D :D

Anyway, that should land me in plenty hot water, so enjoy it.

Regards
:D

[Speedbird59]

4g,

As the saying goes "many a true word spoken in jest".

The Claw

todays R/£ exchange rate touched 17.95 which means if i'm not mistaken a 5 Rand Castle is about 28p. I don't much care for the stuff as I'm a Guniness man myself which sets me back a whopping 8 Rand-cynical exploitation!

Finally after reading several other forums it has just occured to me that this one is relatively Gov free....whats going on (mind you I'm not complaining)

Cheers

[The Claw]

This is an illegal gathering.....you have five minutes to disperse! :cool:

If you are lucky enough to find Castle in a pub over here it costs £1.20 per beer, so 4g when in SA I'll get the round if you pick up the tab over here??

If one looks at the "turn-coats" of the Luxavia/Trek days, I would worry if I still worked for SAX. :eek:

[4g_handicap]

Claw,

What, on my 800 GBP salary - you must be daft. Although, in retrospect, I could probably agree to that on the basis that I could never afford to travel to UK. I could feed my family for a month on GBP airport taxes alone.

The lastest rumour that I hear is that Virgin is going to start an airline here in RSA(RB is here in SA) - possibly in competition to SAA, and it is possibly not with Nationwide(their alliance partner). I wonder if anyone can fill us in.

Also, rumour has it that BA & Comair might part company.

So anyone have some hot gen for us????? :cool:

[The Guvnor]

4g - Branson's been talking about this for years - remember he was slated to bail out Sun Air?

Don't forget that (as in most countries) foreign ownership is capped at 49% - so he'd need the appropriate local partners in place.

They'd eat him alive! :rolleyes: :eek: :rolleyes:

[The Claw]

The problem is that SA doesn't have and never has had level playing fields for the airlines. Branson is on shakey grounds himself, I doubt if he'll risk getting sucked into SA politics. He is more likely shaking the tree in order to see what will fall out!?

The people at SAX need to question why SAA is speaking on their behalf. Do they really have your interests at heart? They should also see through the attempts to pacify the two strongest unions.(Pilots & Engineers.) Since the SA regulators are incapable of doing their job, it would be refreshing to see the SAX staff standing as one. Forget for once that you are pilots, stand by your less fortunate colleagues. If not, you will continue to see airlines, that YOU fly for, failing. Thats my opinion anyway.

Beware of those who benefit from others misfortune, for it could be you next. :(

[4g_handicap]

Claw,

I don't know much about RB and his problems, but SA is becoming one of the top destinations of several major airlines(I seem to recall an article saying BA rated it as no 4 worldwide :eek: ) - I think he would do well to get in here - I also think domestic is where SAA actually make some money.

I don't want to be nosey, but I am still interested to know what you did at SAX?

[The Claw]

4g; 1) Then why are so many carriers pulling
out of SA?
2) So would many others! :cool:

[The Guvnor]

The economics of the SA routes are rather interesting. The peak season is effectively December to March, and of course under those lovely user friendly South African laws perishable produce charters have priority over passenger charters.

Throughout the rest of the year, demand is low on most routes (the primary exception being London) which I believe SAA still pools with BA.

Northbound traffic will be badly hit with the Rand approaching R20 to the £. If there's a resurgence of PAGAD attacks (such as the one on the Hard Rock Cafe at the V&A Waterfront a couple of years back) then expect the southbound traffic to be badly hot as well.

According to today's SA Sunday Times, the economy looks like it's going to melt down next year - high inflation coupled with very high interest rates. And if theres violence in Zimbabwe - or Big Bob rigs the elections (again) then it will collapse even further.

All of this puts the airline industry in a state of flux. Whilst a number of expenses (mainly labour) are incurred in ZAR, the majority are in USD. This means that domestic air fares will rise steeply; and people will not be able to afford to travel. Equally, inflation and the falling rand will cause the labour costs to increase as well - which will drive prices even further up in a vicious circle.

The good news is that you can currently buy bottles of 12yo Chivas Regal for R130 - £8! :eek: :eek:

[Whitebug-speed]

With the backing SAX has from Transnet, whats the chances of Link's survival ?

[The Claw]

SAX is not a failed concept, but yet another organization that has served it's purpose. Roger Foster has the will to survive and wisely is looking beyond the borders of South Africa. :cool:

Long term? Depends on politics.

[Speedbird59]

It's interesting to read this thread from the start. I seem to notice its come full circle. I asked a question to the effect of what is the future of civil avition in this corner of the world. Ironically no one can make any predictions with any degree of certainty.

My gut instinct is that there will be consequences from the rapid depreciation of the Rand. It will be interesting to see what the consensus of opinion is after the "election" in Zimbabwe. It will probably be about as democratic as the Democratic Republic of Congo....

Its sad to say that so much really hinges on that and really it need not if there was a Government here in SA that would show leadership.

Anyway apologies for the political diatribe but it seems that aviation is just as suseptable to changes in the economic climate as is any other industry or walk of life if not more so.

[jabrie]

Yea,yea all you guys
Nobody said anything about Airlink's so called 2 airlines in 1. The boss man wanted the J41 captains to re-apply for positions on the ERJ. Anyhow Airlink pilots body won the court case, and in return the APA chairman got the boot :mad: Result of the court order J41 captains got trained on the ERJ on a 50/50 base. Outside direct captains also got the job 50/50 I think, more like 75/25 on the outsiders favour :confused: Now the latest is that Zimbabwe captains and F/O are to fill the next course 100% :mad: :mad: :mad: The pilots I believe is really mad and will go to court again. It looks like Airlink do not trust their own captains which they know but rather go for strangers and allow them to ****** up their a/c like the farming insident in Cape Town :D :D with one of the new captains that took the corner to fast.

[The General]

PLEASE tell us more on the farming incident in the "Mutha City" :rolleyes:

[4granted]

It leaves you feeling all warm and tingly..with
F!@#$%^&NG!!!!! RAGE...
Well Id like to believe that he is just comiting suicide slowly..
Good luck Bob...Osamas friends from Boeing are coming soon!
This should get its own topic before BOB destroys this nice SAL thread too..
4g(HB)

[126.9]

We all know that the only way to stop the rot; is to stop the rot. Mugabe should have been taken out a long time ago! By the sounds of things on this thread; so should Roger Foster! I bet he's still crying over the training bonds, that he couldn't enforce, for the ATR42 crews. :) :)

[The Claw]

er....excuse me 4 HolerPoler ?

Things are so much better elsewhere? When you have a non-Flt. Ops/non-Human Resources person using his sound knowledge to tell you that you do/do not make the grade as a pilot? :) :)

[The Guvnor]

As always, Zapiro sums it up so well...

http://www.mg.co.za/images/zapiro/dec18.gif

[Vauxhall Cross]

You might like to try <a href="http://www.zimtoday.com" target="_blank">www.zimtoday.com</a> for an insight about what's really happening in that God-forsaken country.

[jabrie]

The farming in Cape Town is in fact old news I thought everybody knew it. This new outside captain with Airlink taxied across the runway 19 to back track on 16 in order to use full length on 19 when the taxi way was still closed on "A". He was behind a SAX CRJ on the same taxi route and maybe did not look where he was going and saw the turn (runway 16) too late and took the turn to wide and fast and the nose wheel went into the sand and plough a nice deep trench and got stuck like no John Deer ever would have :) . But the very clever Trevor is the Airlink management that don't want to listen to the advise of their own pilots. They where also warned to wait until after the Zim. election before they employ Zim. pilots. "Bob" will kick Airlink or Zim. Airlink out of "his" country before you can say "Roger Foster", and then what are they going to do with the Zim pilots. I see another dispute on Willem's table. That poor oke is in the s@^!t from the day he got that job.
I think the big thing here is that the Airlink pilots wants to see that they all soon will fly the ERJ and that nobody must push in. Soon SAX and Airlink will be one airline then the fight will be stronger. Don't understand me wrong I think that most of Airlink captains will rather welcome a SAX pilot on the ERJ then some strange outsider or Zim. pilot. The court order is clear and the new chairman of APA is ready to attack <img src="mad.gif" border="0"> <img src="mad.gif" border="0"> I rest my case.

[Whitebug-speed]

It seems to me that Roger Forster will fit in nicely with Rob and his bafoons. They're both in this game for themselves. RF didn't hesitate to sack the APA rep for 'gross insubordination', likenend to that of Rob kicking out the farmers.
This is where SAX can be a good example for regionals in SA. Take their successful salary negotiations which ended up in the SAXPA rep receiving a commemorative scroll from ALPA-SA, unlike our colleague at Link.
It was stated in this thread that RF was head- strong and determined, but at what cost? using bully tactics?
Link pilots had better pray that they intergrate with SAX!

[The Claw]

If you consider how many flights SA Airlink fly in a week and the best you can do is the CT farming incident?? At least they are not bending A320's? Whitebug-speed try to look at the bigger picture. SAX prefers their staff to have lived in exile in order to qualify!? Once SAA is the only employer you'll find your demands a lot harder to achieve.Camelhorse,next time you apply for a job outside of SA, I hope you realize that your view is that you shouldn't be allowed work outside of SA? <img src="eek.gif" border="0"> <img src="eek.gif" border="0">

[ 20 December 2001: Message edited by: The Claw ]</p>

[beechbum]

Lets leave the Mugabe bashing out of this shall we as its spoiling an interesting thread. We all know he's an a#&*@*&% so lets leave him out of it!!! As for Camelhorse learn to spell and have some sort of command of the English language, so at least we can understand what you are talking about!!!!!!! By the way do you work for Link? Cos I sure hope you fly better than you write!!!!Anyway guys keep the thread going and it would be interesting to hear from some SAX guys on the topic at hand.

......Happy landings all!!!!!!!!!!!!!! <img src="mad.gif" border="0"> <img src="mad.gif" border="0"> <img src="mad.gif" border="0">

[4g_handicap]

<img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">

[beechbum]

What say thee 4g_handicap????????? <img src="tongue.gif" border="0">

[ 20 December 2001: Message edited by: beechbum ]</p>

[Whitebug-speed]

Well rumour so has it that SAX will soon buy out Link via Transnet, sell the now defunct J41 and allow those deprived souls a chance to fly real aeroplanes, namely DASH-8's ! <img src="tongue.gif" border="0">

[nugpot]

A SAX/SA Airlink/SA Airlink Regional merger can be and hopefully will be beneficial to all the airlines concerned. With the combined route structure and a/c capability, money could be saved and hopefully used to pay the pilots <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> (who will form the second largest pilot body in the country).

If a merger will happen and if it does, what form it will take is unknown and speculation unfortunately won't change anything. I know that SAXPA and APA are looking into the situation and will have the necessary structures in place if a merger does happen.

The R700 million question is what role SAA will play in any combined company?

As for Rodger Foster, I have had my run-ins with him and do not trust him, but he IS a good businessman and his input will be valuble for any merged company. I cannot see him as CEO though. SAX is an empowerment company and Transnet will own 55% of a merged company (100% of SAX and 10% of Link) and will have a lot of say. Rodger and Barry each own 19.35% of Link and nothing of SAX. Their voices will be small.

The merger makes good sense economically and frankly I do not think that SA Airlink can survive on their own. Airlink Regional has 4 jets with at least 11 more coming and they currently only have work for 2 (and those on SAX routes( OK except JHB-UPN-CPT and DBN-GRJ-CPT)). Open skies Africa is a dream that Rodger gambled on and he may have cost himself control of his airlines.

Be positive guys and girls. We have no influence over the economic/political decisions that will be made, but our attitudes and work ethic can make or break a merged company. In any case, we'll know by March 2002.

On the a/c front. I think the CRJ is a more mature and solid product than the ERJ, but it is vastly more expensive so I can see myself doing a conversion soon.

[4g_handicap]

BB,

I justs sits here and minds my own business.

I did mention that there were some unhappy fellas at Link.

There are of course 2 sides to every issue - there are a lot of J41 pilots that are still flying the J41 because Airlink took pilots from outside the company for the ERJ - some of them have been with the company for several years and understandably they are angry.

I don't neccesarily agree with all their sentiments(I particularly feel the union is a bit extreme), but I do understand. Also camelhorse is a colleague(one plenty senior to me), so I have no intention taking issue with him. I will stick to providing factual info to those that are interested. <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">

[beechbum]

White - bug speed, me theeenks its fargin war declared!!!!!
Wouldn't mind it though but I'm sure many of the Link lads would think otherwise. Anyway I don't think Meesta Foster and his affluent backers are going to give up their their airline they fought so hard to build. Are you not perhaps mistaken that Foster and the gang are going to buy SAX out, get rid of those CRJ jobbies and fill them with Brazilian lawn rockets!!!! Don't forget there is 30 on the way and he's also looking at the ERJ 170/190.With the help of Price and his Waterhouse or whoever is looking in to this setup I think it will be resolved forthwith. The aircrew I think must have all their ducks in a row cos after all he i.e Foster will be looking after his own interests and the pilots will be the last in the food chain and we've all seen that before!!!!!!!!!
Lets hope that all this will be for the better and that everyone will come out on top!!!!!!

Only time will tell!!!!!! <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

[Whitebug-speed]

4_G,

On average how many hours do you fly per month on the EMB135 ?

[The Claw]

Whitebug-speed, I have to agree with you on the Dash-(Late), it is about the only thing that SAX has got right! If I look at the two clowns ruining....er....running SAA or the "infamous" engineer at SAX racing through the ranks, give me Roger Foster anyday. At least he knows how to run a business. <img src="eek.gif" border="0"> <img src="eek.gif" border="0"> :)
Good luck guys! <img src="cool.gif" border="0">

[4g_handicap]

WSB,

It started off slowly working about 1 day a week and probably 40 hours a month.

Now I want an increase - this working 5 days a week is nonsense and has to stop. :) :)

I am probably going to hit 90 hours for this month, but that may be due to people on leave.

To sum it up since joining on 2 July 2001 to date I have done 240 hours including the 40 on the sim.
<img src="smile.gif" border="0">

[126.9]

What's happened to Barry Webb? Is he still in the picture, or has Foster finally ripped him off too?

[nugpot]

4g

Just a few points to ponder.

The CRJ is not the right a/c for the Eros run, but until your company joined the jet age, there was no alternative. The ERJ 145 will propably have the same problems out of Eros. I hear from SAXPA that there are still some questions over your RTOW and obstacle clearance status out of Eros. The less said about Nelspruit, Pietermaritzburg and Malelane, the better. The Jetstreams are still using WAT limit tables instead of computed obstacle clearance RTOW tables and I suspect that the ERJ's are as well.

Power by the hour is nice until RR start auditing your engine data. You might find that high ISA's take the same toll on your motors. At least you have the higher thrust rating on the 135. Considering that we take 14 pax more than you and burn the same fuel at 290/310 that you burn at 350/370, I am happy to stay low and out of the wind.

There are quite a few ex-Link guys at SAX and when mergers are mentioned, they immediately say that the most difficult part of a merger will be to get Link training and ops up to SAX standards. I sincerely hope that is not true.

If you look at my previous post, you will see that I am quite happy about the prospect of a merger. Our companies have different cultures and there will be a lot of growing pains if we joined forces, but it is propably the best move.

[The Guvnor]

I wonder if Roger is aware that by going into partnership with Flywell, he's working with a rather iffy character by the name of Andrew Smith - who is currently being sought by Joseph Kabila for ripping off his old man (allegedly in conjunction with Leo Mugabe) to the tune of quite a few million dollars? This was after he had supplied the DRC (via Harare) with numerous shipments of arms, many flown from Eastern Europe on aircraft (mainly IL76s) belonging to former KGB Major and close associate of Osama Bin Laden, Victor Butt.

Butt (a former long term resident of the Sandton Intercontinental, who allegedly still owns property in Sandton and Morningside) previously traded as AirPass on a Swazi AOC out of Pietersburg supplying UNITA (amongst others) before being closed down when things got a bit too blatant. AirPass was closely linked with Norse Air Charter.

[ 21 December 2001: Message edited by: The Guvnor ]</p>

[jabrie]

No!! I must say that 4g must be quit junior with Airlink if he thinks anybody must be far senior to him. He is right, a lot of pilots is @$%** off at Airlink, or so I hear from all the stories. Or does some think I am yellow for not flying the ERJ!! And for the spelling, sorry my "bra"

[126.9]

camelhorse You're not a private investigator are you? I think if you read 4g's postings, you'll find he gave you a reasonable clue to his seniority in his company; his date of joining, genius!

4g Your postings are amusing, entertaining, and most of all enthusiastic. Thanks and keep it up! Now get rid of that fff signature that ruins your originality. <img src="cool.gif" border="0">

[Avi8tor]

Having only recently stumbled onto this thread, I thought it was about time that I set some of the records str8. Nugpot seems to have some views on issues he seems to know little about.

I am interested to read his comments on the NLP & PZB operation. He goes on about 'WAT limit tables' vs. 'Computed Obs Clearance RTOW Tables. He obviously never has seen the computed RTOW tables in either the J41 or the ERJ.

The computer program considers the ASDA, TODA & TORA, Slope and Obstacles. It then comes up with the RTOW and the restricting factor, i.e. Field, WAT, OBS Clearance or BE. The Aircraft Manufacturer supplies both computer programs.

The only jippo for NLP is that the landing distance is factored as an alternate, not a destination. This is done with the CAA approval. On both runways for PZB all obstacles are considered. There is an IMC flight path designed & practiced in the sim on both initial & recurrent training. I think that most people forget that there was a prototype J41 here in SA, doing water-meth trials, all under the eye of the then DCA. Sorry for all the Dash late drivers, the J41 is just that much hotter.

Interesting comment about the ‘power by the hour’ and RR audits. RR gets the engine data on all 4 ERJ’s 2x a week. The FADEC data is downloaded & emailed to RR. (Clever stuff is FADEC). In discussion with our Chief Engineer, he said that the engine history is totally within RR parameters. It may interest you to know that 95% of all our T/O’s are at reduced thrust. However, he is right, if X% of our T/O’s are at Max thrust, then there is a penalty.

I like the comments on the 290/310 vs. 350/370. I also think the fuel burn on the ERJ is a little high, but performance come at a cost somewhere. I had to smile about his comment about ‘staying out of the wind’, I think that’s simply sour grapes that the CRJ’s engines are poked & SAX can’t afford the bucks to get them fixed. (That’s me having a cheap dig, sorry….J)

As for the ex Link guys at SAX. ‘Quite a few’ is 3, if my memory serves me correctly. All of which jumped ship 4 or more years ago. So they would have little or no knowledge of the current state of Training or Operations at Airlink.
(In my humble opinion, I would only want the ‘lawyer’ back flying with me. The other 2 you can keep.)

It will interest you to know that SAA it totally happy with the standard of training at Airlink. The ex-head of the cadet scheme is rated on the J41. He flew regularly on check rides with the cadets. Also in the Delta Code Share Audit that was held last year we received mostly positive comment on the operation. In fact, the B767 fleet captain that went on the jump seat to NLP was mighty impressed. Said something about it was ‘like being back in the navy….’

I think at the crux of the whole SAX/Link debate is the issue that SAX has never managed to grow beyond its 12 aircraft. In the same period, Airlink has grown from 9 to 20 (soon to be 21) aircraft. This had been achieved without taxpayer’s money!!! Also SAX is largely an ex 21sqn retirement home. They bring a whole lot of different baggage with them. I hope in the merged airline the Airlink management style remains.

With all that off my chest, I look forward to the merger, it won’t be without its challenges. The industry is in for a hard ride next year. It has already started with the cutting of routes & 20 pilot jobs at Comair. The merger is the only sustainable way forward for both SAX & Link.

All I do hope is that we as the pilots, get our sh*t together, and work out all the differences soon. I don’t want management telling us how its gonna be. I hope that both Len & Phil get our total support at this.

[ 22 December 2001: Message edited by: Avi8tor ]</p>

[jabrie]

Stop this!!! Roger Foster knows what he is doing!! SA Airlink is a great airline, the Embraer is great!!! everyone will be happy soon, SAX as well. By the way the Airlink Zimbabwe move is legal with Zimbabwe pilots.

Happy landings

[4g_handicap]

126.9

Thanks for the support - I do try and keep things light-hearted, as it is sooo easy for some-one to take offense(refer to earlier posting by Spool-up).

I will have to try and think of something original before I can change the signature - watch this space.

Avi8tor, good on you.

Sorry nugpot, I just can't resist

Vat so http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/laser.gif

[ 22 December 2001: Message edited by: 4g_handicap ]</p>

[Avi8tor]

Yeah..ur right. I think we musn't take ourselves too seriously. However, the issues facing the merger & the the airline industry are grave. We musn't underestimate the challanges.

There has to be a lota healthy debate next year between us at Airlink, & the guys at SAX. We have to stand together against 'the dark side'. Otherwise there maybe more than a few unhappy campers.

[nugpot]

Hello Avi8tor,

I am sure we know each other. Semi-chastised, I accept your word for the RTOW data and the current Link standards. Last time I had a jumpseat there was in April 2001, so things might be different.

I was not negative about the ERJ performance, I just pointed out that the SAX engine policy changed after 5 years of operation to save the engines and that the ERJ has a bit of time ahead to reach 5 years in SA service. BTW, the CRJ engines are not damaged and need to be fixed, we just realised that high ISA's are taking its toll and that we need to operate differently to save the engines.

Also I might have had a little dig at the ERJ fuel burn. Obviously at FL350 and above we will have even lower burns, but we need to run the engines too hot too get there, so when we're heavy, FL 290/310 is it.

I re-iterate that I am in favour of a merger and that my reply to 4g was just that - replying in kind.

BTW. I hope your comment was supposed to be " achieved WITHOUT taxpayers money".


See you in SA Airpress, or is it SA Exlink? <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

[4g_handicap]

Aaarg - now we can all be friends again.

http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/sloppy.gif

[ 22 December 2001: Message edited by: 4g_handicap ]</p>

[Avi8tor]

I look forward to the merger too. I think we must all make a huge effort to get our collegues thinking positively about it too. I think if the like minded pilots in both airlines drive this thing, we have a great future.

p.s. nugpot mail me.

[The Claw]

With the merger the stakes will be a lot higher for those unfortunate to be unemployed. The chances for some to regain employment within the industry will be almost zero. Think of them.

Lookout for hidden agendas within SAA management. If enough people work together, hopefully you'll get a merger for the right reasons?

4g- Keep up the good work!!

Good luck and Merry X-Mas to all. <img src="tongue.gif" border="0">

[The Guvnor]

[quote]SA's Air Link Defends Deal With Flywell
Zimbabwe Independent (Harare)

January 4, 2002
Posted to the web January 4, 2002

Dumisani Muleya


SOUTH African Air Link chief executive Rodger Foster has defended his company's controversial project with Zimbabwe's Flywell Airlines which has provoked a fierce row among local aviation players.

Foster has denied being pushed by Transport and Communications minister Swithun Mombeshora into the deal, saying his company freely decided on its partner without political pressure. He said business considerations took precedence in his company's decision-making process.

"We went through an intricate process and eventually chose Flywell for good reasons," he said. "We are very proud and pleased with them."

Foster said there were local aviation executives hawking "malicious and sour-grapes stories" about the money-spinning deal.

Asked whether his recent meeting with Mombeshora in Harare could have influenced the arrangement in any way, Foster insisted: "Not at all."

Last month a consortium comprising Leo Mugabe, Sobusa Gula-Ndebele and his brother Evans accused Mombeshora of hijacking their project and handing it over to Flywell, which is run locally by Forbes Magadu and former Air Zimbabwe captain Eric Mataba.

Evans Ndebele described the deal as "corrupt" but Mombeshora rejected the accusations.

The airline project saga, which initially generated a flurry of responses from local players, took a new twist just before Christmas after another company, Sol Aviation, laid claim to the lucrative deal, saying the Mugabe-Ndebele group had hijacked its project.

Sol Aviation managing director Nkosilathi Sibanda accused the former Zimbabwe Express Airlines executives of masquerading as his company's representatives and intercepting his project.

Foster said South African Air Link chose Flywell, currently trading as Air Link Zimbabwe, ahead of the Mugabe-led group - which was also due to be called Air Link Zimbabwe - because it offered a better proposal.

"We did not choose the Ndebele brothers because we chose Flywell. I can't disclose the reasons," he said. "We did not sign a memorandum of understanding with Sol Aviation because its shareholding could not be clarified in time but I have high regard for Sibanda."

Foster dismissed claims that Flywell was a "briefcase company" for South African Air Link
<hr></blockquote>

[PAXboy]

I have just worked my through the entire thread, as I was in ZA at the time it started and too busy drinking ludicrously cheap booze to bother reading news! <img src="tongue.gif" border="0">

Naturally I cannot add anything to the political and business speculation but a couple of small points.

As I commented in another thread in this forum, six or eight domestic airlines do not stand a hope of individual survival. In my view, whether or not SAX and Link will make a good match is going to be ignored and the match will be made, so folks had better start not minding!

NLP: I gather that the operation, apart from only using the water/meth capable J41s, captains have to be specially trained for the site. Not least is that the centre line has to be taken literally, there being only some few inches either side of the main gear to the edge of the tarmac. Only captains thus trained may operate into and out of NLP. FOs may operate the sector but not the landing or departure.

Link used to operate this sector with the Do228, which had a lot more lee way. Before them was the old Magnum with the Fairchild Metroliner.

Farming incident at CPT: I stand to be corrected on this.

Once the nosewheel had gone off road, the brave captain felt that, since he had driven in - he could drive out! The main gear were still on the taxiway and he applied thrust ... apparently the 135 responded enthusiastically and the front gear did indeed move forward but the tyre found the mud rather to it's liking and decided to stay behind.

This further compromised the gear and it had to be inspected by Embr. As I say, I stand to be corrected. Actually, I'd rather sit whilst someone brings me an Oude Meester and Coke. :)

[kiron hanuman]

Hello ALL!!!

4g_handicap.....what flying experience did u have before you landed your first airline job ??
ie.where did u train , when did u start , etc ???

Thanx

[4g_handicap]

Bae 146,

I have battled up the ladder, trying to get experience - also had my fair share of "Dear Mr......, thank you for your interest, however, unfortunately...." letters.

I started flying about 14 years ago. I had some 1700hrs when I got my first airline job, having built the hours through instruction. For the aspiring pilots, I can really recommend this route. Any other route requires heaps of luck or contacts.

I gather from your profile that you are working towards a career in aviation. I can say this- it is not easy, but it is definitely worth the effort at the end of the day. It takes getting used to dealing with rejection, time and time again, but it teaches you not to leave your future in the hands of fate.

Good luck
<img src="smile.gif" border="0">

[kiron hanuman]

Hey THere !!

Thanx alot for the info 4g . With regards to my self ...im working towards my COmm . Just finished my Night Rating . I have approx. 85 hours . WIll be starting Comm groundschool in Feb . Im training down in dbn at Natal Flight Centre .

In your reply you mentioned that u got ure first airline job with 1700 hrs . Was that with just instruction time or did u have any turbine time ??

thanx

[4HolerPoler]

4g, 146 would you mind continuing your blossoming friendship on email. Unless, of course you've got something to say about SA Airlink (the topic of this thread), that is.