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sheesh123
13th Jun 2007, 11:27
Do you think it is better getting a ppl in florida for £5000 http://www.flyoft.com/pilot_course.php

or here in the uk for £8000??

Chukkablade
13th Jun 2007, 11:36
If your going to fly in the UK, train in the UK. If saving a few quid during training means more to you than the actual flying, 'ave a word.

Go and hour build anywhere, but the important part, the building blocks of training that you'll carry for the rest of your life, those are a very different story.

When I have time, I'm doing a 'spare seat ride' for someone who trained US and now lacks the confidence to fly in UK airspace. It's not the first person I've did that for either.

Controversial maybe, but you asked for an opinion, and so you got one.

Good luck though, and welcome to the hampster wheel that is G.A.:ok:

gcolyer
13th Jun 2007, 11:54
It's only a PPL, i would go to Florida.

Ignore the Nay sayers about Florida training.

The R/T differences is not a pain in the ar**
The airspace differences is not a pain in the ar**

You will most likely learn a few more manouvers in the US than you will in the UK.

As for the weather differences, it really depends when you go. If you go in December you will get all sorts of weather.

Hot days
Cold days (cold enough to have to de-ice your plane)
Cloudy days
Windy days
Rainy days


I perosnally went to OBA. When I got back to the UK I done 1.9 hours with my local club and that inculded a cheackout for the C172

Chukkablade
13th Jun 2007, 12:07
With respect fella, it's not surprising to hear someone who went to Florida tell the tale that it's okay to go. However:

'It's only a PPL, i would go to Florida.' What does this mean exactly? That if you decide to go CPL later your screwed, because your skill foundation blocks aren't good enough? Maybe you mean different, but it's certainly open to that interpretation.

'You will most likely learn a few more manouvers in the US than you will in the UK.' And this one; I can think of a few jokes of the top of my head that would fit that line, especially with the rep of some of the US schools, but again, care to elaborate?

NH2390
13th Jun 2007, 12:26
If training in the US, do a FAA certificate. Cheaper, better training and more priviledges when you get back.

gcolyer
13th Jun 2007, 12:46
What I mean by "it's only a PPL" is...it is not like you are looking for a creme de la creme CPL license from "quality" school that only Lord Fathersham Ponsonby Smithe can afford, and only a school that Lord Farqhaurt Snittert-Rothschild is intertested in hiring from.

And I am not saying Floirda schools a re not quality.

I have trained in the US and the UK, and for a PPL i can't see the point in paying £8k for something I can get for £3k without any differences for the worst.

As for manouvers, I have not come accross a UK based school that teach the following:

1) Spins (as in actualy spinning)
2) Short field landings (practical not just waffle)
3) Short field take off's (practical not just waffle)
4) Soft field landings (practical not just waffle)
5) Soft field take off's (practical not just waffle)
6) 360 turns over an object
7) S turns over landmarks

Items 1 - 5 I think are absolutley critical to learn.

scooter boy
13th Jun 2007, 12:54
GColyer
"Ignore the Nay sayers about Florida training.

The R/T differences is not a pain in the ar**
The airspace differences is not a pain in the ar**

You will most likely learn a few more manouvers in the US than you will in the UK."

Amen to that.

Chukkablade, I'm sorry but I have to vehemently disagree with you.

"If you're going to fly in the UK learn in the UK - why exactly?"
Is it because it is more expensive?:rolleyes:
Is it because you will have little continuity of lessons because of ****e weather (even in summer)?:rolleyes:
Is it because the school machine you will be flying will often be an old wreck in the UK?:rolleyes:
Is it because in the UK you will often be trained at a strip where RT will be minimal and not a busy airport and then flying into a busy airport will scare the crap out of you?:\
Think of all those nice landing fees?:rolleyes:
Coupled with the astronomical price of avgas?:rolleyes:
And to crown things nicely the bureaucracy of the CAA/JAR in terms of having to pay for a new license every few years - lovely! Don't we do well over here!:rolleyes:

My advice: Go to the US, have fun, enjoy the weather, (see how aviation really should be done) and get your ticket quickly and inexpensively in genuinely busy airspace where you get to use the radio and fly at night. Then you can come back and realise that you need an IR anyway if you are going to fly seriously in Northern Europe (even in the alleged all too short summer that we have).

So then go back to the US and do an FAA/IR, buy a deiced N-reg machine and have the freedom of the skies.

Simple innit! :cool:

SB

gcolyer
13th Jun 2007, 13:07
I will add that I done a JAA course in Florida and have an FAA license based on that.

It cost me no extra, other than the £38 the CAA wanted to release my file to the FAA. My FAA license is valid as long as my JAA license is valid and I can add FAA ratings to my FAA license if I want to.

So I have the best of both worlds.

maxdrypower
13th Jun 2007, 13:10
aha , interesting , the spin thing is obviously due to there being no requirement for it , however some schools although they don not teach it they do insist that it is demo'd RVR at liverpool for one .
Landings soft field short field and take offs soft field short field that would depend on your location of choice . I initially did my ppl at Brize Norton but they always took you elsewhere for circuits like welesbourne , not particularly long or hinton in the hedges , tiny. But some schools say for example at Barton , every take off and landing there is soft field short field regardless cos barton is small .
360 turns over a fixed spot , I did a lot of steep turns in my training and had to demo them as required by the syllabus , They are by definition going to be over the same spot otherwise they wouldnt be that steep methinks and S turns arent they just like clearing turns ??
Just being devils advocate here itsd my belief just do what suits pocket and ambitions at the time I know people who have trained all over some good some bad but there is no precursor that points to one location as being a bad training provider . I was taught by serving RAF pilots the raf way you might think that would lead me to being quite good , I wouldnt say that .I believe I had a good grounding but I still make all the same mistakes that the rest of us do .If you can pass a skills test and a club checkout then where you trained shouldnt matter , but again thats just my opinion

gcolyer
13th Jun 2007, 13:25
Steep truns and the FAA's 360 are different, as is the S turns versus clearing turns.

The 360 is a turn over a fixed point not alloing the aircraft to drift of the turning point. Example you are pivoting around house. When you commence the turn you are not allowed to gain or loose more than 50ft alt and your wing that that is pivoting the house is not allowed to drift closer or further from the house. On a windy day this can be a challenge.

S turns along a terrain feature are a similar thing. Lets pick a straight road as our feature. You commence the manouver 90 degrees to the road, as soon as you cross the road you begin a left or right hand turn. By the time you have turned 180 degrees you should be crossing back over the road. As soon as you make the second crossing you turn in the opposite direction. As soon as you have turned 180 in that direction you should be crossing the road again. It is not as easy at is sounds, esepcially on a windy day. It is all about judging the wind and the time of the turn. And it is a failure if you turn out of the 180 to early or too late. You must cross the road as the turn finishes.

maxdrypower
13th Jun 2007, 13:32
sounds fun , but it isnt a requirement of a PPL so why do they teach it , I would say that it would be useful for a police fixed wing pilot perhapsor an aerial photographer but for a PPL ?
But again different ways different methods but the same goal , do whatever suits pocket ambition and time

gcolyer
13th Jun 2007, 13:34
I believe you get taught it due to FAA regulations, after all it is an FAA PPL requirement. the same as you have to do the FAA pre solo exam even if you are on a JAA course.

maxdrypower
13th Jun 2007, 13:38
ahhhhhhh see

IO540
13th Jun 2007, 13:43
The are two options in the US:

a) an FAA PPL (which allows you to fly a G-reg worldwide but is nearly useless for other European registrations)

b) a JAA PPL (which can be done at only a few U.S. schools)

I have a standalone CAA and FAA PPLs and can say the FAA one is harder. It also includes a night rating as standard, whose flying requirements exceed that of the JAA one. I did the IR in the USA and that was very tough indeed.

However, be careful to compare like with like. If you go to the USA, you will be flying solidly until done, for say 4 weeks. If you did the same in the UK (basically, booked yourself into a B&B near the airport and flew daily; something virtually nobody does over here) you would also do the PPL in 4 weeks - assuming good weather. Instead, people slot the flying into their lives over here, and spend a leisurely year or so doing it, not to mention an average of £8k-10k.

The cost saving of US training is eaten into by airline tickets and accommodation, not to mention the significant time spent grinding through the paperwork for TSA and Visa.

gcolyer
13th Jun 2007, 13:53
IO540 has a point. There are some extra costs involved with going to the states. But I still think it is cheaper to go there.

Definate Extra costs:

Flights £700 (ish)
TSA $130
SEEVIS $100
VISA £70
Food ???
FAA Medical ???
Study material £250
Accomodation £800
Finger printing $20

Now the school I went to included in thier costs the following:

TSA
SEEVIS
VISA
FAA Medical
Study Material
Accomondation
Finger printing

Leaving me to only have to fork out for flights and food. My course cost me £2789.00 after forking out for the flights and food it cost me about £3500 which is at least half the price of what it would cost in the UK, and that included the night qualification as well.

Chukkablade
13th Jun 2007, 14:36
Scooterboy, you say

'Is it because it is more expensive?:rolleyes:
Is it because you will have little continuity of lessons because of ****e weather (even in summer)?:rolleyes:
Is it because the school machine you will be flying will often be an old wreck in the UK?:rolleyes:
Is it because in the UK you will often be trained at a strip where RT will be minimal and not a busy airport and then flying into a busy airport will scare the crap out of you?:\
Think of all those nice landing fees?:rolleyes:
Coupled with the astronomical price of avgas?:rolleyes:
And to crown things nicely the bureaucracy of the CAA/JAR in terms of having to pay for a new license every few years - lovely! Don't we do well over here!:rolleyes:'

That'll be generalisation in the extreme then. Some of it borders on insult to the schools I know in the UK.

As for the folowing

'1) Spins (as in actualy spinning)
2) Short field landings (practical not just waffle)
3) Short field take off's (practical not just waffle)
4) Soft field landings (practical not just waffle)
5) Soft field take off's (practical not just waffle)
6) 360 turns over an object
7) S turns over landmarks'

Well, I did 6 out of those 7 on the run up to the skills test, so maybe my instructor was as on the ball as I thought.:ok:

sheesh123
13th Jun 2007, 16:15
well i see there are 50/50 views here. Basically i will be flying in uk 90% of the time and other counties the rest. hopefully looking to make a trip to africa or somewhere in the future.

WALSue
13th Jun 2007, 16:32
Given that I'm really struggling to build up any hours in the UK (but I've moaned about that enough in other threads!) I'm very tempted to take a couple of weeks out in the States (or somewhere along those lines) to add a few more hours.

Greg2041
13th Jun 2007, 18:11
Hi sheesh123,

I am in a similar position to you and having weighed up all the options and having spoken to both US and UK training pilots, I have decided to go for a UK PPL.

The reasons are numerous but I want to be a safe and competent pilot and I have heard more than a few US scare stories from pilots trained there! Deeply worrying.

The one bit of advice I have been given is try to find an instructor who has a heart for instructing and is not just hours building. This is more difficult than it sounds but I think I have finally found the right person. I will of course update this link as I progress onwards and upwards!

Greg2041

IO540
13th Jun 2007, 18:25
I have heard more than a few US scare stories from pilots trained there!

Those stories are invariably spread by the UK establishment i.e. UK schools (who obviously hate the US training option), the CAA and its various associated bodies, NATS, some UK/CAA trained commercial pilots who have been through the gold plated European mill and regard themselves as superior, etc.

I suggest that anybody who believes this cr*p goes up for a flight around the UK countryside and listens to and watches some of the antics which graduates of the UK training system get up to, and listens to various ATCOs tear their (remaining) hair out.

FAA training is plenty rigorous enough. There are differences but these rapidly become insignificant as one gets up there and starts flying around. I had the learn the "US radio" stuff for the IR but forgot all about the differences within a few days of coming back.

The radio differences (and knowing their exact meanings) are in fact far more important when flying IFR than VFR.

sussexlad
14th Jun 2007, 00:45
My vote goes for the UK every time, I have an equal spread of hours across both the UK and Florida and the reasons I would choose the UK are -

* The US has "different" standards of RT. IMO it is far worse and you will develop bad habits. Can't remember the exact document but think its CAP413 which gives guidelines to good RT, you will really see how poor RT is in Florida after a read of this.
* The airspace rules are different, they are fairly logical and straightforward in Florida, you will have a shock when you first try to navigate around the UK with its multiple MATZ's and its complex layered airspace system.
* Alot of procedures are different, for eg. there are no overhead joins in Florida and you don't call to change frequencies in many situations in Florida.
* From experience the aircraft are maintained to a far higher standard in the UK and are in better condition, however I've only seen 3 US flight schools and approx 6 UK flying clubs so this is hardly conclusive.
* Florida is hardly the most exiting place to fly around, it is virtually totally flat and featureless and the only terrain you need to consider is the odd tall aerial. I found it extremely unchallenging.
* As mentioned there are alot of costs not considered when choosing a US school such as Visa's, flights, car hire etc.
* Very importantly consider your legal rights. It is not uncommon for a customer to be unhappy with a flight school. As a UK citizen you have very few avenues to object to any poor treatment you receive from a US registered flight school.

Any financial saving you perceive that you have gained would probably be a false economy in the long run and IMO a poor background to gain further licences and ratings in the UK. I purely built hours in Florida, whereas a fair few friends of mine obtained their PPL's in the US, and every one of them bar none are a nightmare to fly with in South East England, they find it very daunting and confusing.

Please don't think that I am against UK pilots flying/training in the US, there are also pro's to choosing the US for training or hour building, however IMO most of them are geared around saving money.

Hope this helps :)

gcolyer
14th Jun 2007, 08:31
Sussexlad I think you are a bit harsh.

CAP413 is riddled with errors if you read it carefully, all be it continuity errors to which the average student will become confuesed with.

As for US R/T I dont think it is anymore lax than in the UK. When i came back from the states I was bricking it because everyone was saying "Oh the R/T inthe UK is so strict and fools won't be tollerated', I found this to be absolute shi**. I have heard worse R/T in the UK than I have in the states. As for not making a call to leave the frequency int he states, you are a very naughty boy because you should, unless you are on VFR/IFR flight following in which case the controller will dump you when they are ready.

As for airspace i think this is the biggest area for concern as the UK has more layers is more compact and has a million and one MATZ. But it is no sweat, just make sure you call them way in advanced and don't enter the airspace without permission, it is that simple. My perosnal opinion is people look at airspace on the map and say "bugger i will have to go around that" not true. If you dont want to mess about getting permission you could always take the option to go under the airspace or over it (if the options exist). So alot of the CTA's and TMA's are not an issue.

As far as costs go as I mention there are some schools in the states that soak all the ancillary costs except flights to and from the states, so if you choose right you erradicate that issue.

As for legal rights and poor treatment, it is pretty much the same in the US as in the UK. if you are going to get screwed you are going to get screwed. At least in the US there is not the stiff upper lip with regards to GA as there is in the UK.

I have flown with lots of UK and US trained pilots and tend to find the US trained pilots to be a bit more relaxed and less worried about busting airspace and more able to fly more than 10 miles without having to refer to a map every 20 seconds.

Alot of this US UK arrgument is scare mongering in both directions.

S-Works
14th Jun 2007, 09:15
A lot of this argument comes from those who have done it one way not wanting to be seen to be second rate. The FAA route people do seem to bang on in a most evangelical way about the wonders off getting trained in the US/FAA ticket.

There are a lot of advantages to going to the states and flying, the freedom, variety and fun are a big incentive. Don't be fooled by the attractive prices, you still have to do the TSA thing which involves a day in London, flights and food. It is posible to do a PPL in the UK for 5 grand as it is in the US. People will no doubt argue and run this thread at a tangent that you have to be super human to pass in 45hrs and you have to allow more. Well the same goes for being in the USA but you don't generally have the luxury of extending your holiday so still have to pay when you come home. It ends up as 6 of one and half dozen of the other.

I love flying in the US and have many hundreds of hours touring around the country. I have flown a Piper Turboprop coast to coast with a friend of mine for little more than the cost of renting a twin in the UK.

Also the point of flying IMHO is to be able to travel and explore and the US gives you that opportunity.

But I am a firm believer in supporting the UK training industry and if you look around you will find some first class establishments out there who will give you value for money.

If I look at my local area we have 3 clubs with 30 mins of me, Leicester Aero Club, my friend just did his PPL there over the last 5 months and passed in 45:20 and paid UNDER £5k. First class Instructors and a good fleet and a CLUB not a school. We have NSF at Sibson a first rate outfit with a nice fleet and good Instructors. More expensive than a club as they have to try and make a profit but well run. Connington again a school rather than a club, good fleet, good instructors and school prices.

I have used all of these many times and can highly recommend them and all will give you a PPL around the £5k ish mark.

It's all well and good for those to deride the UK training scene and send everyone to the USA. But if the UK schools are not supported they go to the wall and what happens to GA in the UK then? We won't see the Americans running to our aid on that one.....

Not everyone can afford there own aircraft or share and clubs allow people to keep flying with the commitment of only in the flight in hand to meet.

gcolyer
14th Jun 2007, 09:24
Bose-x

You are right when it comes to supporting UK GA, there certainly is not enough of it going on.

I am only trying to point out there i snot much in it as far as trainin gis concerened when choosing between the US and the UK. On average the major difference is cost. Also on average I think it is not very easy to find a UK school that will dedicate a few weeks soldi to a student to cram in the course (weather permitting). Maybe this is something that UK schools should look at.

As far as local clubs go I think it is imperative to join a local club or two, even if you do have your own A/C or share. And also ensure you support that club at funcions and events.

Something certainly needs to happen to UK GA to make it appealing and viable again as right now I think it is a crumbling beast.

IO540
14th Jun 2007, 09:47
I hold a UK PPL, night IMC, all done in the UK and it took about 18 months in total.

I also hold an FAA standalone PPL, IR and hopefully soon a CPL, all done in the UK except the IR which was done in the USA.

And I've done the Visa/TSA process, have even written up detailed notes on the whole thing (for the benefit of other pilots), so I do know a bit about it...

People who try to compare are never going to compare like for like.

IMHO it is almost irrelevant whether you train in the USA or the UK. What matters is whether and how you can fit the training into your life.

If you go to the US then you will be living eating and breating aviation for four solid weeks. Unless you are sub-capable, you will do it in that time and you will reach a good standard of basic flying. In Arizona the weather is guaranteed (but you can't do a JAA PPL there; the nearest is southern California) so not much chance of a cancellation. Florida isn't great but they usually work around the afternoon weather.

If you do it in the UK by checking into a B&B for four weeks then you will also do it in four weeks - weather permitting. Realistically, unless you pick the Autumn months, it will take 6 weeks. But that assumes a well organised school; most UK schools don't have the organisation of the big US ones. But almost nobody does this - people choose the UK option because they can slot the training into their lifestyle and/or income stream. And they take a year as a result, spending probably an average of £8000.

I don't think there is any difference in the end result. From the USA, you come out a good pilot and you have to learn a bit of UK radio calls. From the UK, you should also come out a good pilot but you have reached this point a year later and with about £3000 extra spent. OTOH, being able to fit training into one's life/job can be priceless, which is why I have done some of my FAA training in the UK, even though it is a massive hassle and a huge expense.

There are stories of US trained pilots who came back not knowing that in Europe they need an explicit clearance through Class D, etc. This level of dumbness is just about possible but you will find it everywhere. The other day I heard an ATCO patiently explaining to somebody (G-reg) which direction EAST is in; the pilot kept turning WEST towards some CAS.

When my 11 year old son is old enough to log training (14) I will find him an FAA CFI to log all the possible hours, and at 16 he can formalise it by going to the States and flying the remaining mandatory hours over a couple of weeks. This will be a rather extreme example of somebody with (by then) hundreds of hours of unlogged time, and there would be no point in hanging around a UK school in UK weather.

Much is made of the need to fly in UK weather. For goodness sake, a PPL is supposed to fly under VFR :ugh: You aren't supposed to fly in cloud, in the UK, in the USA, or anywhere else. If you can't plan a flight so as to remain VMC, you have to scrap it. That's VFR... and yes it's rather limiting. VMC in the UK is every bit as good as VMC in Arizona.

So, I don't think there is a relevant difference in the standard. It's horses for courses.

The biggest challenge seems to be hanging in there post-PPL. Most don't - all but one of the people I met when training 7 years ago have (AFAIK) given up long ago, and most disappeared almost immediately. But that's another story.

Slopey
14th Jun 2007, 10:11
I'm with IO here - its a personal choice - but keeping current in the UK is the problem regardless where you got the licence! I've not been able to fly for the last 4 weeks due to constant low cloud bases and light drizzle.

For me, I did around 7 hours in the UK, then I went to OBA - for a number of reasons.

i) It was cheaper - I'm based in Aberdeen - instruction here is near enough £180 per hour + £17 per landing/touch and go - it's almost impossible to do circuit training here as ATC won't allow it during busy times, and you end up orbiting for 20 mins waiting for choppers/commercial traffic, and the landing fee applied whether you full stop, or t&g. - Obviously - this is dependant on where you'll train, but for me it costed out at £12k for completion - I spent a total of £5.5k at OBA all in.

ii) The consolidated 4 weeks suited me better personally - I know people who have been training for 18 months and still not got the licence. That's not for me - I benefited from a more structured and regular training environment and I really found that flying every day for 4/5 weeks you really see great improvements to your flying - no 20 mins getting your air legs in as when I was training in the UK. Also, hanging round the club house waiting for weather to improve is boring as sin - especially at a smaller and quieter club.

The arguments about standards of flying etc are pointless - YOU are the student, ensure that YOU fly in a safe, competent and professional manner. Students from both sides of the pond can develop lax or bad habits and to be perfectly honest, a low hours PPL is much more likely to be less complacent than someone who's been flying for years in a group out of a farm strip.

The R/T is not sufficiently different (position & hold/line up and wait - not rocket science - Flight Following/FIS/RIS/RAS - not difficult) - the very very very busy Daytona/Orlando airspace prepared me perfectly for operating out of a resonably busy ATZ, and I've had no problems on my return. I've joined a group who have been perfectly happy with my flying, and my flying has been described as very professional by an instructor who was surprised i wasn't going to do the CPL.

The point is that it's up to you to get the most out of it. It's also up to you once you've got the licence to continue to learn, and battle the UK weather to keep current.

Whatever you decide - it's your decision - DONT base it soley on opinions from relatively anonymous forums either way. Also remember that people tend to complain about bad service, but very few people offer opinions on good service! ;)

sussexlad
14th Jun 2007, 10:40
Gcolyer I wasn't trying to invoke a debate on practices in the UK vs practices in the US so sorry if my post had that tone.

But I certainly stand by my points, the R/T I witnessed in Florida was shocking, Bizjets on final having discussions with the ATCO about the weather in Barbados when there are 4 training a/c in the circuit, expressions that would have a better place in hollywood movies. I was particually amused by "I got 2366 on the box buddy" from a departing IFR flight referring to his transponder.

You can leave frequencies without reporting in certain situations, for eg. departing a controlled Class D aerodrome VFR.

I agree that with good planning you can navigate through the various airspaces in the UK, but unfortunately the standards of pilots vary massively and MATZ/airspace busts were a common cause of CPL test failures when I was doing my CPL.

As for legal rights, you simply have no recourse with a US school. You are on a visa which they can cancel at any time. If you think you have been unfairly, tough sh*t. You at least have the option of legal action here in the UK.

Don't get me wrong I thoroughly enjoyed hour building in the US and I enjoyed the lifestyle, and the US's attitude to GA flying is excellent, but from personal experience (which I admit is limited, I am a low hour pilot), my friends who took their PPL's in the US are far less confident and ended up needing further training when they returned to the UK.

gcolyer
14th Jun 2007, 10:51
Sussexlad

You actually raise a good point regarding american pilots and their R/T. Some of them do have a shockling relaxed tone as in "I have 2266 on the box"

However I have never heard a British/JAA student being lax on the R/T over there. Other than one yorkshire lad having a go at Daytona approach about a squawk code stating "I am squawking XXXX, what yer on about"

I tell you who I found to be prolific offenders of poor R/T and airmanship are the Embry Riddle students. They appeared to be a law un to themselves and have a very cavalier attitude. Tin hat on.

Slopey
14th Jun 2007, 11:17
They also seemed to be incapable of flying a tight circuit at Ormond which pissed the controllers off no end - having 5 cessnas on huge extended downwinds as an embry twin was half way to Palatka on final was a real pest - but I digress ;)

gcolyer
14th Jun 2007, 11:34
Slopey

I am surpirsed to hear that. When I was at OBA the circuits were very tight. For instance if you were departing from 35 you had to start cross wind either before the caravan or 500feet (which ever came first) stay within the interstate on downwind and start base no further down than the bend in the river certainly not at Granada.

Ken was particularly hot on the subject. My instructor (Brian, who left when i left) was very anal on tight circuits every where I went, and PFL crazy! (every feckin flight he would pull the power!).

I always found the trouble was with very new students (pre dual circuit students) or visiting pilots.

Does OBA have radar now? it was the big discussion when I was there.

BackPacker
14th Jun 2007, 11:54
As for legal rights, you simply have no recourse with a US school. You are on a visa which they can cancel at any time. If you think you have been unfairly, tough sh*t. You at least have the option of legal action here in the UK.

You have as much legal rights in the UK as in the US. The only problem is that it is a little harder to exercise them since you don't have time for a lawsuit.

I paid by credit card, assuming that in case of problems I would be able to get support from the credit card company and/or my money partially back. I've had no problems at OFT so I can't testify as to whether this assumption was true or not.

As for "cancelling your visa", that's total bull. The visa is issued by the INS (part of the State Department) on your request and cannot be cancelled by the flight school. It can only be cancelled by the INS itself and you have to get yourself into some serious trouble before that happens. Before issuing the M-1 (temporary student) visa, the INS will check whether you are *really* coming to the US for (flight) training, so they need a piece of paper from a (flight) school saying that you indeed enrolled with them. But if you fall out with that school, it *is* possible to have your visa transferred to another school, although it probably requires a visit to the INS, some paperwork and some admin fees. The same goes for TSA clearance.

I did a big write-up of everything related to getting a JAA PPL in the US here: http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=278995

IO540
14th Jun 2007, 12:07
You at least have the option of legal action here in the UK

You can forget this "legal action" business.

If a school goes under (which the UK ones do regularly) you will lose your money. Litigation won't get it back because you will rank as an unsecured creditor, behind the chargeholders ;) In 30 years of business I have not yet seen a dividend paid to unsec creds where there was a chargeholder owed money.

If you are in the USA and are training with a school and you don't like them, you have a problem because the school's name is printed in the Visa which is stuck in your passport. There is supposed to be a process for getting this changed but it's not something you want to do in a hurry.

You won't have time to sue a school in the US. And if you did, you will be finished anyway because the next school won't take you (they don't want to be the next in line for the treatment).

You will have time to sue a school in the UK, but there isn't any point if you want to carry on flying afterwards because you will be slagged off all over the said airport and nobody will touch you with a bargepole.

Slopey
14th Jun 2007, 14:24
I am surpirsed to hear that. When I was at OBA the circuits were very tight.
This is so0o off topic - so pm me if need be for futher discussion.
Yep - they're supposed to be, but the Embry ME boys would come in for 4/5 circuits and fly wide ones which made the 4/5 company cessnas in the circuit have to extend until they got the hint and legged it. Happened 4 or 5 times I was out circuit bashing, at one point the tower even denied them the T&G and made them full stop - cleared them for an explicitly "tight" circuit (in non CAP413 terms ;) )and they headed off to Flagler instead (as was I but they were much tighter in the Flagler circuit). Happy days! ;)

gcolyer
14th Jun 2007, 14:42
Those pesky Embry Riddle boys still at then :ugh: