Jaguar handling

[ACW599]

A fairly recent accident report referred to the Jaguar's "hard-edged" handling characteristics, and reading other odds and ends over the years leaves one with the impression that it could be quite demanding in some regimes.

Out of sheer interest, was this really the case? If so, I'd be most interested in the reasons. One of our staff cadets raised the issue whilst we were admiring the example in the Cosford static on Sunday. I said I thought it might be to do with the B/A ratio, the lateral control system and the very high wing loading, but was I on the right track or was that total garbage?

Enlightenment greatly appreciated.

[Jaguar Pilot]

One aerodynamic deficiency of the Jaguar was weak directional stablity at high incidence. It was basically underfinned. Compare with the Tornado (Norfolk Shark).

The incidence limits had to be respected at all times. With heavy centreline stores the roll centre was lowered and the aeroplane was limited to 14 alpha instead of the usual 17.

High roll rates at high incidence could induce inertial roll-yaw coupling (but then again the Lightning would do this).

As the 38 Group Jaguar display pilot, I aways flew it with all pylons removed (to reduce the drag index) except the wing outboards. These were aft of the centre of gravity and slightly improved the directional stability. This was of greater importance than the small drag penalty.

Dynamic pressure availabilty was vital. I slow-rolled it at 500ft agl, but never below 400KIAS.

Sadly there were many accidents and fatalities due to mis-handling. Stick with the rule book and it was a rewarding aeroplane.

JP

[newt]

You sound like a QFI to me JP!! Stick to the rule book in 1 v 1 and get shot down by all the junior pilots on the squadron. The aircraft flew perectly well at some extreme Alpha but I do know it is very limited on 1 engine!!

[kemblejet01]

If you were VERY careful you could get 22 alpha out of it (normal 17 max).

Then again, I also had a nice young man depart one on me by rolling and pushing at the same time (so not much alpha at all). Beat all the roll rates that day.

Interestingly, all those top dogs at Boscombe couldn't make head nor tail of the HUD video. It was only years later when I was pushing and rolling an Extra 300 did I see it all again - negative flick roll.

Great jet and loved flying it.

[Shackman]

Right from the beginning it displayed some interesting handling characteristics, even when straight and level - viz the first three ship flypast at Lossiemouth in front of HRH to mark the formation of the first Jag Squadron (or it might have been the OCU). The (apparent) PIO and subsequent break out in front of the assembled multitude looked quite interesting.

I might add it was many years before I was able to experience flights in the Jaguar, and enjoyed every minute of them, although never reaching any extreme attitudes. I also realised quite quickly that whilst I might be able to fly it :) I would never have been able to operate it, and (banter caption OFF) the guys who did had my full respect.

[ORAC]

although never reaching any extreme attitudes Or altitudes... :p

It did much better after they put in real engines in it.....

(It did make for some nice quiet days at Colt back in '75, mind, when the temperature got into the 80s.)

[Jaguar Pilot]

Newt,

smoke off go....

and kemblejet01,

Would like to know who you are. PM?

JP

[newt]

Well this thread is getting a great response JP!! I do love it when all you can resort to is SOG!!! Seems the old sense of humour is not as good as it used to be.

There was a certain instructor on the OCU who always told his students to "Watch the China Alpha" or was it "Watch the Alpha China" ? So we all knew the limits. That was until we got to a squadron and found out what the aircraft was really capable of doing!

So Im off to the bunker again to await your flak!!

[AR1]

Am I right in remembering an air clues article regarding a low level departure during a simulated airfield attack, early '80s?

[Jaguar Pilot]

Newt,

"Seems the old sense of humour is not as good as it used to be".

No change in my sense of humour so:
Done this months Q roster yet?
catch up number 4 - smoke on go....

By the way, I for one know that the jet was much more limited on no engines than on one!

JP

[newt]

JP

Q Roster done and your on every weekend for a month!!

[ACW599]

Many thanks for the replies so far. Re-reading the XZ108 accident report, there's reference to a video entitled "Jaguar Handling at High Incidence". Was this as interesting as it sounds?

[Bob Viking]

It's (or was!) a currency item for us to remind us of the perils of flying the Jaguar.

.......and no, it's not very interesting!
BV:E

[Phanjagthunhar]

The trouble with posing questions like ACW599's original is that it is bound to flush out a batch of 'knowledgeable' QFIs! My recollection is that the latter were to be generally ignored until a week or 2 before one's annual check-ride!

But to the matter in hand and Newt's focus on 1v1 in a telephone box with the old pussy cat. I seem to recall that it was all about feeling the aircraft through the stick and airframe. In the 'older' days of not-so-carefree handling, no self-respecting pilot ever won a 'doggers' by looking through or around the HUD for alpha; he (there were no shes then!) did so by flying the aircraft and looking out where it mattered! This, of course, explains why QFIs were always walking around on the end of a 'pipper'; never was a breed of pilot so adept at manoeuvring into the 12 O'Clock!

The design authorities recognised this fact of Jaguar combat life and so retro-fitted an audio stall-warning device. Rather cleverly, it became more distracting, and hugely annoying, as the alpha increased; to the point, in fact, that one might be in serious danger of losing the fight. So, the same self-resepcting pilots found the off switch for that little device. Just like they found the little buttons on the engine instrument panel that magically gave you a little more poke at the moment critique! Mind you, the authorities soon had those little rascals disabled! Why? Because they detected rapidly rising fun meters for those obvioulsy non-QFI pilots who had discovered the thrust buttons (and, yes, unbelievably they were introduced into service without announcement!); and because engines were being cooked at an alarming rate!

I wonder what JP will have to say about all of that?!!

[Jaguar Pilot]

Newt,

OK as long as SOG isn't on at the same time. Where is he by the way?

ACW599

May I suggest that if you have not flown the Jaguar you would find it interesting. I believe it is called "The Jaguar at High Incidence".

Some good radar-tracked ground photography of the jet departing controlled flight at high altitude, but not spinning as most pilots would interpret the term. Included is in-cockpit footage and commentary.

However, to those of us who have flown it - not that interesting, as Bob Viking has said.

JP

[ACW599]

>May I suggest that if you have not flown the Jaguar you would find it interesting. I believe it is called "The Jaguar at High Incidence".<

Hmm. I'd have sold my soul to the devil for a Jaguar trip but was adjudged too tall to fit. :{ The video sounds fascinating; assuming it's not classified, I'll ask DASC whether they have a copy for the crewroom collection.

[newt]

JP

If I knew where he was I would put you both on every weekend!! Last heard of living in Salisbury selling kitchens!!

[The Helpful Stacker]

Hmm. I'd have sold my soul to the devil for a Jaguar trip but was adjudged too tall to fit. :{

Then you should have been top cadet at an ATC summer camp at Colt a few years back, that got me placed under the care of a really nice bunch of chaps and a flight in a T2.:ok:

I've some in cockpit photos somewhere of us lined up on Colts runway, shortly before the nasty pilot made me throw up.:\

[ACW599]

>Then you should have been top cadet at an ATC summer camp at Colt a few years back, that got me placed under the care of a really nice bunch of chaps and a flight in a T2.<

One of the great regrets of my life is that I was all set for a trip in a Lightning T5 at UAS summer camp many moons ago and the bl**dy thing went U/S. :{:{:{:{:{

[Exrigger]

ACW599:

One of the great regrets of my life is that I was all set for a trip in a Lightning T4 at UAS summer camp many moons ago and the bl**dy thing went U/S. :{:{:{:{:{

Same thing happened to me while out in Luqa mid 70s, I was working on 203 Sqd at the time, real bummer when it went u/s.

[BluntM8]

I was all fixed up for a jolly in an F3, when I went u/s !

Glandular fever put a stop to my fun! :mad:

[Wholigan]

Jeeeez BluntM8 - - - you were bloody lucky there matey!!!! Close run thing. :E;)

[Jaguar Pilot]

BluntM8,

Your jolly in an F3 would have been the trip of a lifetime - it was a single-seater!

Hey Wholigan,

Is the first letter of your christian name R ?

JP

[Jaguar Pilot]

Phanjagthunar,

"Just like they found the little buttons on the engine instrument panel that magically gave you a little more poke at the moment critique!"

Must admit I can't remember those, even with over 1800 hours on type!
Mind you, I've cracked 60 now and perhaps Newt is right in that the memory ain't quite what it used to be.

....and by the way 2-star, just where do you think you would be without your mother and QFIs.....?

Orrabest,

JP

[Phanjagthunhar]

JP, you make my point! QFIs never knew about the things that really mattered! For example, one I knew was even confused about what constituted the bombing target at Nordhorn Range; so he opted to throw a 1000lb inert at the RSO!

I am pretty sure that I had 1800 hours on type by the time you joined the JF; and I certainly had a lot more by the time you left it! I also feel sure that the subject mod was in and out (though the button remained in place therefter) before you joined the JF too.

My mother taught me a lot more about flying than any QFI ever did!

Keep taking the Philosan!

[Wholigan]

Hey Wholigan,

Is the first letter of your christian name R ?

Yep Jaguar Pilot - - - and the rest of it's oj.

;)

[Jaguar Pilot]

Phanjagthunhar

You have not responded to my ten second PM rule and, after consultation with some personal friends on this site, you have been rumbled.

The only engine "switches" fitted to the Jaguar were PTR.
These were not on the "instrument panel", but I have forgotten where they were. Please tell me where they were.

If you had more Jaguar hours than me when I joined the force, then you would have had to acquire more than 600 hours per year. Has any Jaguar pilot achieved this? All Jaguar pilots please respond.

[Wholigan]

I've been frantically trying to think who I know who flew all 4 of Phantom, Jaguar, Hunter and Harrier. I know loads who flew 3 of those types and loads who flew 3 of those types plus one other but me poor old head's hurting with the effort of remembering that particular all-4-type flyer. Damn - age is a sod!! :E Help!!
Oh - by the way - it is true that unburned fuel comes out of the intakes and flows around the cockpit area if the Jag goes backwards!!! SV will verify that for me! :O

[RETDPI]

Oh - by the way - it is true that unburned fuel comes out of the intakes and flows around the cockpit area if the Jag goes backwards!!! SV will verify that for me!
It's all on film folks! (ETPS?)

[flipflopman RB199]

Jaguar Pilot,

The PTR switches are on the L/H cockpit rail, and I'm sure you will agree with me when I say that they gave you no more thrust, only allowed the thrust to be distributed a little more evenly over the speed range!!


Flipflopman

[Captain Kirk]

Tsk Tsk:=

Methinks JP refers to the Max Rating switch which was, indeed, on the engine instrument panel and increased TGT by 25(?) deg.

VERY naive of the engineering fraternity to imagine that pilots would limit its use to take-off - simply because that's what the clearance was!!:E

Sadly, it was soon inhibited.

[Spon Clayton]

"I've been frantically trying to think who I know who flew all 4 of Phantom, Jaguar, Hunter and Harrier."

I did-and a few more

[newt]

There is only one guy I know who has flown them all Wholigan!! I know who it is and I dont think JP has any idea who it is!! I also notice your name is not on the list for the Jaguar Farewell Weekend?? Will you be teaching straight and level 1 instead of having a few beers at Coningsby??

Once agin I retire to my bunker and await the banter!!

[Jaguar Pilot]

Thanks Flipflopman.

I knew that but just wanted to see if Phanjag does.

JP

[Jaguar Pilot]

Hey Wholigan,

Fire and fuel come out of the Jaguar intakes even when you are forwards at 400KIAS. This ocurred S+L to me just before the pitch at Lossie.

Transpired that an HP blade had detached.

Still, the jet was fine on one engine - just stick to the rules.

Now then Phanjagthunha, just what were the PTR switches actually designed for?

JP

[Wholigan]

Will you be teaching straight and level 1 instead of having a few beers at Coningsby?? - - - - - low blow newt ya bugga - - - low blow!!!

However, sadly I'm having great problems manning St Mawgan for summer camp this year, so I'll have to be there instead of supping milk at Coningsby! ;):E

Hope you guys all have a great time and have several drinks for me.

[Jaguar Pilot]

Hay Newt , y'owl bugger.

I know that U kin speek inglish like lossapeeple on vissite.

Issa noo jag werld innit mates
innit awsumm
wannabeee airline piilott ???
lern too fly ferst
lern inglish B4 tryin 2 fly
fishinsfun innit
kuwd4ebb

[Phanjagthunhar]

JP!

The more you say, the more you make my point about knowing things that are important! Had I wanted to speak about PTR switches (and note that I specifically mentioned 'buttons'), I would have done so. Why is it that QFIs never listen?!

Capt Kirk kindly educates you later in the thread. Worryingly, he also remembers correctly the TGT increase; clearly, his powers of recollection are better than your 'I've forgotten where the PTR switches were' ones! How could you forget that, being a QFI and all?!

So, I humbly advance the argument that you and your 'personal friends' (are there any other types, and do you really have some?!) have rumbled no one! You will have to do better than that to catch me out; then again, t'was ever thus!

I notice, too, that you declined to commnet on QFIs dropping bombs! Perhaps you do not want to be rumbled!

Keep taking the tablets!

[Phanjagthunhar]

Wholigan,

How the devil?!

You know me well! The only clue I offer at this point is that you are not considering the 't'!

OK, one more to help the grey matter! Where was the fixed cross above/below LFD?!! Ask Geoff Boycott!

Aye,
PJTH

[Phanjagthunhar]

JP:

"Now then Phanjagthunha, just what were the PTR switches actually designed for?"

Simple!! Something else for QFIs to bang on about in ground training when they ran out of 'watch the china alpha' blah! First question usually was: 'can someone tell me where the PTR switches are?' Oh, and for more instantaneous and linear thrust response in situations such as single engine flying and AAR; how much of the latter did you do in the pussy cat?

[Captain Kirk]

32 mR of course: 25 mR for fixed gun line and 7 mR gd at 2500 ft.:)

[Jaguar Pilot]

PJTH,

Never dropped a 1000 pounder inert at Nordhorn - wrong guy.

Since I have PM'd you and you now know who I am, any chance of reciprocating - this has become a great banter thread. I'm surprised Newt ain't saying more, but it's probably because he can only type one word per minute.

Aye,

JP

[Phanjagthunhar]

JP:

So, you have been checking your logbook! OK! Maybe I was overstating the size of the weapon; it was just a bit of spin to get your attention! It was, in fact, a 3Kg bean can that, with malice afore'thought, you threw at the RSO rather than Tgt 3; as you just stuck to the rules! I remember acting as moderator in the aftermath between you and the totally unexcitable 'Wing Nut'! There, is that enough of a clue as to my identity, or am I consigned to that part of your memory that cannot find the PTR switches?!

I am aware of your PM, thanks (and, indeed, I knew who you were before it!), but I am not going to make it that easy for you!

Newt is probably bashing a river to death in Scotland as he builds up his strength for the Jaguar Finale!

[Jaguar Pilot]

PHJAG etc

Nope. Try a 28 lb slick. It was a new target (single deck bus newly painted as per the old one) parked near the RSO enclosure. Kinnell, 3K vis and only one degree off attack track. WTFO.

Howcome you knew who I was before my PM?

Arggh - Wingnut.

Met him again at the Volvo PGA golf Championship at Wentworth two years ago. He didn't at first remember me so I'm obviously easily forgotten! He's not though is he?

Prancing around with with some kind of stick and weird hat - driving a Volvo for f*%£! sake and unimpressed with my Merc. No taste.

Never overestimate the size of your weapon.

"...this ....is fivestar...!"

By the way, did you participate in the Bruggen v Gutersloh competition where we had to bomb a piano sitting on top of target 3 at Nordhorn and the F4 mates were challenged to A to A and shoot the flag off? They didn't crack it, but at least I did in a Hunter F6 some years previously.

f+^&i$ QFIs.

I'm getting there.


JP

[A2QFI]

Excuse a foreign Jag chap chipping in - is WingNut otherwise known as "Dick-Dick" and earlier in his life was he known as The Voice Rotating Beacon and is he very tall? Just background you understand?

[newt]

JP

Just back from the river with nothing to report! Still not worked out who it is yet? I could tell but that would spoil the thread!!

So the "Nut" did not recognise you!! I do recall he always drove a Volvo. At least his good lady did. I remember she tried to drive us all home one Friday night. Kept dragging us from the bar and loading us into the car! We naturally slid across the back seat and out of the other door to return to the bar via the patio doors! It was quite sometime before she gave up and left us to another jug of Harvey Wallbanger!!


Happy Days.

PS How was Q at the weekend?

[A2QFI]

My recollection is that PTR was a device to bridge the thrust gap, when on one engine, between max dry thrust, not enough, and min reheat, too much, in some configurations and weights. The reheat was thus able to light when the engine was at or above about 80%. I had an Omani student who was the first thru Lossie Ground School and he had had some 2 seater trips while were working up an Jag Aeros team (Pause for laughter and no it never did happen). However, we used PTR and a bit of flap and a good time was had by all. When this worthy was asked, in engine groundschool, what the PTR was for he replied that it was for formation aeros which produced reactions between deep shock and hysterical laughter! An excellent man, being groomed for high rank and killed himself flying a Defender up in Mussandam - a great loss.

[Jaguar Pilot]

A2QFI,

....is WingNut otherwise known as "Dick-Dick" and earlier in his life was he known as The Voice Rotating Beacon and is he very tall? Just background you understand?

Got it in one!

JP

[factanonverba]

JP
The chap I know who flew all 4 types could halso have a hog in his title!!
A fellow 5 star as yourself as well.

[newt]

Too Many clues Fact. Keep him guessing. Its much more fun for the rest of us!!

[Jaguar Pilot]

....'kinnell!

[Phanjagthunhar]

JP:

It is amazing that despite all the clues that have been put your way, you cannot place me! Perhaps it is just that I was not that well known; a shrinking violet in the Jaguar Force?!! Yeah, right! But it would seem that I have, indeed, been consigned to that part of your brain that lodges items such as PTR switch positions! To use the contemporary phrase: am I bovvered?!

Rest of the World:

I am surprised, however, that A2QFI's 'innocent', but rather well-informed, question about another JF shrinking violet has not sparked off a whole new and potentially highly amusing thread. Tales about the tall, guffawing, noisy, interfering VRB (or Wing Nut, Basil Fawlty, Dick Dick - did ever a man have so many nicknames?!) are legion. Spookily, he too was a QFI; and he was known to deliver the odd wild bomb or bullet to boot!

Newt started with a yarn about his ever-forgiving and delightful wife; was there ever a woman who drew such a short (or is that long?!) straw?! Anyway, the I remember well the 'how many drunks can you get in a Volvo' incident!

I hear tell that a book, along the lines of Nigel Walpole's WIWAB one, is being written about the JF; WIWOJ, I presume! I suspect that it might quickly fill with Wing Nut stories; so, maybe someone should write a stand-alone one about him. Any literary, or literate, volunteers?!

Maybe it should be called WIWOTOWWN - When I Was On Thirty One With Wing Nut! Or how about WMD - Wingnut Manic Diaries?! On second thoughts, leave the acronym in its more traditional form; for Wing Nut most certainly was one!!

There we go! An 'interesting' question from ACW 599 about Jaguar handling, has mutated into a potential book about Wing Nut! But, wait! There were a few stories about his aircraft handlng too; so maybe the subject matter has not changed that much!

[newt]

We could tell the one about an abandoned takeoff at Jever that blocked the runway for 2 days or the one about using a can of spray paint to touch up the paint job on a Harrier which was part of the static display at TLP when it opened at Jever!! Much to the annoyance of the "Mate" who arrived in it!! Or what about the debacle at end of Minival when all those in 2 Hangar were released back to their Squadrons!! They turned left and a certain person turned right!!

We could go on for ages!!

Anyone like to add some more!! Much more fun than QFI speak about alpha limits and PTR!!

[Jaguar Pilot]

Or when he decided that, since it was time for my annual sqn commanders check and his sqn QFI check at the same time, we would kill both in one trip.

Me: "whose going to be captain then?"

VRB: "we'll swap over half way through"

Me: "and what's going in the auth sheets and who's authing the trip?"

VRB: "**^#k--"

[Phanjagthunhar]

A few more Wing Nut dits:

The time he decided that he had to lead from the front and do a full sortie in AR5; it was nothing to do with leading, he was just a rubber fetishist! The sortie was to be done in a T2 as rubber, Wingnut and GR1s did not go together! Donned in all his gear he insisted on doing the pre-flight (after all he would have to do so in a single-seater, right?!) which resulted in a beak-to-beak with the pitot tube! Stunned, he then noticed that he did not have his watch - not that timing was ever one of his strong points! Despite the efforts of (JP: here comes another clue!) yours truly (I was the captain and in tears of laughter in the back seat at this stage!) to persuade him otherwise, as we were already late for the range etc, he insisted on going back and doffing and donning all over again! You can imagine the rest!

Or the time that his whole squadron, with the aid of the ever-accomodating staff at Fortes Village (Sardinia), avoided him for most of an evening. We even had guys in the pool breathing through straws! But we were evntually let down by an ex-Lightning pilot (surprisingly not JP!) whose lookout was unsurprisingly piss poor!

Or the day during a Bruggen exericse when he seemed to attach himself, via his gazzy bag lanyard, to various items of furniture in the squadron hard. More amazingly, he managed to do the same when the squadron was 'evacuated' to 20 Sqn!

Or the time we went to some USAFE Eifel base for a TFM. Some sorry sod (senior JP, Welsh surname, dark hair, subsequently discovered God!) got another 31 short straw (little did said officer know how we made that happen!) and had to share a room with Wing Nut! Never did a man look so scared! Especially when, one afternoon, said JP entered the room to find his leader stretching himself...bollock naked.....in the window......the window that overlooked the O Club and associated leisure buildings!

Or the time that one of the deputy flight commanders (the flight commanders were always on leave/courses for some reason!) blew up at Wing Nut as he tried, once again, to rearrange the flying programme. The language may have been a little more flowery, but conveyed the general message: 'if you can do it better, then you take over the desk; I am off to the coffee bar!'

Or the time he was set up for a fight with Gonzo at a Happy Hour in the bar! The intro he was 'persuaded' to use was to regurgitate the line made famous by an ex-Canberra pilot, QFI and subsequent Jaguar display pilot (who probably never did find the alpha gauge or the PTR switches!) along the lines of: 'there are too many Gonzos in the world!' Listening, for once, to the brief, Wing Nut: stormed across the bar; pushed Gonzo on the shoulder with such force that he fell to the floor; and recited rather loudly the lines he had so carefully learned! Then he looked back across the hushed and, frankly, stunned bar with the chessiest of grins to claim the accolades from his boys! You guessed it; they were dots on the horizon! But the sight of Gonzo's face as he was forcefully evicted from yet another arse-licking conversation with the Staish, and especially as it had been visited upopn him by the person he probably hated most in the world, was one to remember!

And then there were the Friday afternoon 'Execs' meetings! The only 'Exec', by loose definition, that ever attended was Wing Nut. The flight commanders were, as already stated, always on leave/courses; the SEngO always had a blanket-stackers meeting to attend, and at least one of the deputy flight commanders was always airborne! So, Execs usually consisted of Wing Nut, the Squinto/Adj and Newt (who, of course, used the opportunity to write the Q list!); SOG used to like to attend too because of his vitally important, and tour-long, role in raising funds for the Bruggen Bowl or some equally worthy cause!

And this is just the tip of the Wing Nut yarns iceberg! So many stories; he is a legend in his own bathtub (JP: another cryptic clue!).

[ACW599]

>An 'interesting' question from ACW 599 about Jaguar handling, has mutated into a potential book about Wing Nut!<

ACW599's not complaining either -- haven't laughed so much in ages. Keep 'em coming.

[Farns744]

What a trip down memory lane!!

[Jaguar Pilot]

Oh hello Farns.

Nice to see you join this thread. How ya doin?

Ah PJTH,

At least I can remember most of the incidents on your last dissertation - highly amusing.

Shall we start a New (!!!) thread? Could be called Jag Banter. This could develop well.

ACW 599 - you started all this!

So, mates, are we now going to start on Gonzo?


JP

.....or shall I change my name to hunlightjag. Old PJTH can't claim one of those I bet!

[newt]

LETS NOT START A NEW THREAD. This is getting really interesting.
Pjth I think the Ex Lightning pilot with poor lookout might have been Ffffffffffarn....d!!! It looks like he might have just joined the thread too! Oh and before I forget, I only attended the Execs meeting because you were always doing an air test on Friday afternoons. Someone had to be there to see what was going to happen the following week! I still remember seeing your little face at the window behind the Nuts desk and trying to keep a straight face! Will have to get you back next weekend!! Now I know the Alpha limits your quiz will be a doddle!

[Jaguar Pilot]

OK Newt.

Not another thread. Let's see this where this one goes then.

Now then, are you or Phanjimbo or whatever his name is going to start on Gonzo or is there more to come on VRB?

By the way, have a great time at the farewell and please pass on my regards to everyone. Wish I could be there, but I've already explained why I cannot.

JP

[Phanjagthunhar]

Newt!

Thanks a lot! Your last post has blown my cover; what is it about Lightning pilots and keeping good lookout or cover?! Even JP will work it out now; assuming, of course, that he has got his ISP sorted!! He is doubtless a QITI (Qualified IT Instructor) too! Watching all of his bits and not exceeding his megabit limits!

F.f.f.f.farnz:

Good to hear from you; it's been a lifetime! I am sure that PPruners will be delighted to hear some Wing Nut stories from your end of the telescope; as, indeed, they will about Lightning night-landing techniques!


It occurred to me that Wing Nut could well be observing all of this banter going to and fro; maybe he is already contributing! Perhaps a scan of the PPrune subscriber list might be in order to find his likely call sign/user name. I guess that we would be looking for cunningly disguised identities such as:

'Hello Dear, I'm Richard' (used in excess by him on Med beaches!)
'Rub on the sun tan oil' (also used frequently in the Med!)
'Wots the time?'
'Wot Day is it?'
Where are the flight commanders?'
'Where is my squadron?'
'Programme Change!'
'I can't hold this flight level' (from his infamous transit to Deci; an event that changed French ATC philosophy forever: they gave up trying to control RAF fast-jet pilots!)
'Jever Calling'
'Point me at Gonzo'
'Who's round is it?'
'Taxy Ace'
'Why do they call me Basil?'But wait! What am I thinking about? Wing Nut surfing the www?! If he could, he would be trying to change all of the programmes!! No, he cannot be out there in the ether; he had enough trouble in the late '70s trying to get his '50s radiogram to work at his always memorable, and rather dry, dinner parties! Those events had something of the gourmet evening episode of Fawlty Towers about them; and Newt played a very good Major Gowan!

I warm to JP's idea that this thread opens up on Gonzo too; never was there a man so deserving of some crucial top level banter! Mind you, they are unlikley to be very funny stories; I recall that life was generally miserable in his orbit! Whatever else one says about Wing Nut, and there is much to say, he and his antics had us laughing heartily most of the time; and we still are! In that sense, No 31 Sqn was a very happy outfit in those days.

Despite Newt's reservations, I also like the idea, especially given the timing (farewell bash next week), of opening a 'Jaguar Banter' thread. I suspect that a lot of folks will be missing these recent exchanges because a subject entitled 'Jaguar Handling' is unlikely to attract many potential contributers! Can the 'banter' elements of this thread be transferred to a new one to get it going? But being a mere 'probationer', I shall leave the more experienced PPruners to provide guidance on this matter!

[jindabyne]

Retired 2-Star (really? :rolleyes:)

Given that your jolly banter seems largely to involve three of you having a giggly time at the expense of one individual, I'd be tempted to give it a rest. Amusing and anecdotal stories about the Force at large would be far more entertaining, and deserving of the jet, for us all - Vulcan and Buccaneer being good examples. Bore yourselves with WingNut stories at your re-union. Sorry Newt - give me a hard time at the Blitz if you wish.

[Jaguar Pilot]

OK Phanjimbohar,

What I didn't tell you is that when I met VRB at Wentworth we exchanged 'phone numbers. Now I'm going to alert him to the existence of this site and even recommend a handle name to him. Anyone know where Gonzo is?

Now it should get interesting.....

By the way I'm not an IT consultant, simply a technical author and graphics illustrator. If you look at the CAA website for CAPs 696, 697, 698 and 758 for instance, you will now know who drew all the performance, flight planning and mass & balance charts.

On www.lighningpilots.com (http://www.lighningpilots.com) I did all the original squadron markings etc.
Seems to me that you have visited that site to find out who I am.

jindabyne,

watch pjth's face after a few beers and you will see why he's 2 star - there will be one in each eye!

Standby for new banter thread.

JP

[Phanjagthunhar]

JP:

Gonzo died a few years ago; in a road accident, I recall. I wonder if he can log-in from the other side?!

The QITI line was meant to be a joke, honest! I know that you are not an IT consultant! But I did not know that you had so many caps!

If there is to be a new thread, is there any way of preventing pompous codgers like Jindabyne from viewing it?!


Jindabyne:

Yes, really! But what's that got to do with anything?!

Do allow me to offer you a really simple solution that will put you out of your obvious misery and, better still, keep you out of our giggly lives. If you don't like it, then don't read it; and go find someone else to chastise! What, I wonder, brings a former member, seemingly, of the Vulcan/Buccaneer fraternity to a thread entitled 'Jaguar Handling'? Must be that life in Lancashire these days is without entertainment or excitement! Or maybe you were simply looking to practice some on-line crucial top level hero worship!!

And I am thinking that, quite possibly, you are not usually the life and soul of the 'Blitz'!! Enjoy the next one Newt, you lucky chap!

[newt]

Jindabyne
I expect nothing less at the Bucc Blitz but as I am now retired and hard up living in Scotland I dont think I will be attending in the furture. Mind you , if you dont like the banter then do feel free to start your own thread! Maybe a few navigator jokes would give us all a laugh!
And JP do feel free to give the man a ring. It would be entertainig to see what he has to say! Maybe he still has a few anecdotes about the Squadron which we have all long forgotten!

[Jaguar Pilot]

Phanjimbohur,

"I warm to JP's idea that this thread opens up on Gonzo too"

After the news which you have posted this would now be bad form in my humble opinion. Never liked the man, and I am not alone, but I wouldn't wish that on anyone.

....and I don't have any caps - I have only written some.....but your sense of humour and wit is truly asshonishing.

Newt,

Good shast lout!

JP

[Phanjagthunhar]

JP:

Have you been drinking again (asshonishing and shast lout!)?! Yes, I remember demolishing the odd glass or 10 of good malt with you at Lossie!

So, are you saying that this hopelessly PC world of ours now precludes us talking about the deceased, in good or bad terms? Or are we only allowed to talk of the good things that they did or said?! If so, there will be very few stories in the case of that particular individual! Oops, have I transgressed the line already?! Well, don't confuse me with someome who gives a damn; we are all fair game, above or below the ground!

Newt:

I always thought you were misplaced at the 'Blitz'; glad we have finally got you back! Seems, therefore, that you will not have to endure a telling off from Uncle Jindabyne! You clearly think he is a navigator; can I resist the banter temptation?! Yes! Save to say that the phrase 'navigator jokes' is a reverse oxymoron!

[Jaguar Pilot]

Phanjimbohur,

I'm not PC. I did say "in my humble opinion".

As for the malts, it's the only descent thing the Scots have ever given us, and I seem to remember that I drank the stuff and you merely managed to demolish the glasses. I don't drink so much these days - I spill 75% of it.

WTFO "Blitz" please?

JP

[jindabyne]

This so-called 2-star ---

' Or maybe you were simply looking to practice some on-line crucial top
level hero worship!! '

Crikey - what a pri*ik

Newt - you know what the Blitz is - tell 'em. And don't be rude, or I we'll ban you! Sorry, not Nav -so what - better that than a mere Sim instructor. And as for that hair on your chin -----

[Farns744]

On www.lighningpilots.com (http://www.lighningpilots.com/) JP, My spelling was never that good either or do you like leaving out the odd letter:ok:.

[Jaguar Pilot]

Oops.

Blimey mate, you're up late aren't you?

JP

[Phanjagthunhar]

Farnz:

Given the timing, did you write this from a flight deck as you roared across the Himalayas? Or is it that you cannot sleep at night?!

[Phanjagthunhar]

Jindabyne:

As I said previously, what has rank, or former rank, got to do with anything; or is that one of your personal hang-ups?!

I cannot find a word with the spelling 'pri*ik', whatever letter the asterisk might represent, in the diary. Perhaps it's a Serbo-Croat word! Or maybe it's simply that we should add orthographically challenged to the list of your obvious 'attributes'! And judging by 'or I we'll ban you', perhaps we should add grammatically challenged too! But, I know, you are going to plead finger trouble. OK! Digitally challenged as well!

You clearly have something of a hang-up about simulator instructors too. Indeed, one detects a hint of superiority in your comment, navigator or not! I have no doubt that Newt will have a suitable retort. All I shall say is that I prefer, by an infinite margin, the company of an ex-Lightning and ex-Jaguar pilot, who had the misfortune to spend a few months on the Buccaneer simulator, to a sad ex-Vulcan, ex-Buccaneer pilot, presumably, like you!

[newt]

Jindabyne

Woops!!!!

I guess I upset you with the mention of Naafi Getters!!! Did not mean to imply that you were and only thought you might like to start a new thread with a few stories about them as you obviously flew the Bucc! That would save you having to read about our jolly japes with Fivestar.

For JPs enlightenment, the Blitz is the annual Bucc Pilots get together in London.

There, is that rude enough to get me "BANNED" or should I say more!!

[jindabyne]

newt

-look forward to having a few jars again in Dec mate!

Phanthing

Very sorry, too much loopy juice on my part I'm afraid. But you're quite right, I meant to say pri*k; an overly verbose and humourless one at that. And I presume you meant to say dictionary, not diary. Pri*k! Must identify you and see if you're in my logbook - just to validate my assessment. As for rank, I agree - that's why, unlike your pretentious self, I don't mention it in my own profile.:ugh:

Out of PC contact for next few days. Bye.

[Farns744]

JP, I didn't think I was up late but that you up early. BTW the missing letter is "c".

PJTH, At that computer again before 8.30. Perhaps you can't sleep either. My excuse is I'm the other side of the pond. I suppose all those desk jobs could be yours!!

[Phanjagthunhar]

Jindabyne:

We can only hope that you remain out of PC contact for the next few years; a lifetime even!

There, is that succinct and humorous enough for you?!

Bon voyage!