Video of helicopter rescue from stranded freighter [Archive]

ShyTorque

9th Jun 2007, 19:26

My immediate thoughts also were: Why not land on deck?

It did look stable enough, although there may have been good reason not to, as the deck wasn't visible on the video.

I once went to a hillside rescue in a Blackhawk, a back injury. The surface was big rocks and long grass. The young winchman was immediately lowered to the ground, taking a stretcher and he went off to prepare the casualty. Meanwhile, we decided we could actually safely land, by manoeuvring slightly off to the rear, which we did and sat waiting, rotors running. The casualty was brought alongside the door. The rear crew were so pre-occupied that they began giving directions to lift to the hover to prepare for winching the casualty on board!

Er, chaps... said I... why do you need to winch him on board? :confused:

Answer: Oh ....er...OH! Casualty now on board! :O :O

unstable load

9th Jun 2007, 20:17

Weel said, Nick!:D:D:D

Turkeyslapper

9th Jun 2007, 20:58

For whatever reason the crew elected to winch the crew off - why don't we just trust their judgement on this one!!!!

Well done guys.

Turkey

FH1100 Pilot

9th Jun 2007, 21:23

Ah, yes. Probably thought, "IT'S GONNA BLOW!" I've seen it on t.v. and in the movies all the time. Vehicle has some little crash, and about two seconds after the people get out, suddenly it blows up (engine compartment, natch', 'cuz that's the most explosive part of any vehicle) like it's got pounds and pounds of C4 in there. They probably thought the same thing was gonna happen with that big ship...that was sitting fairly stabley and comfortably on the beach. You just never know when they're "gonna blow!"

And the guys onboard were probably worried that even if the ship didn't "blow" it was gonna roll right over! Be like that S.S. Poseidon or something from that movie. Then the superstructure would only be, what, 100 feet above the water (albeit sideways) instead of 200 feet or whatever. Making coffee would be a bitch! And of course, stuff would keep falling out of the oven. Or in, depending... "Rack time" would be...um, difficult, but they could always just put mattresses on the walls (now floors).

Not to take anything away from the helo crews. Hell of a job! And they probably needed the practice doing it "for real" anyway.

But if I were on that ship, and I had the choice of being strung on a long line under a 412 on a wintry day...or staying in my nice warm bed until Spring (or at least until the storm passed), I don't think I'd chance the external helicopter ride. Too scary! I would at least request an S-61 or '92.

hihover

9th Jun 2007, 22:50

FH - that was funny....mattresses on the walls (now floors).

However, unless you were the captain of that there boat, your options would be limited....live or possibly die, keep your job or lose it! I am quite sure that the decision to get the crew off a multi-million dollar seashell, beached in a storm, was made by someone really smart.

Ascend Charlie

9th Jun 2007, 23:10

Those coal carriers (there were 71 of them when I last counted) sit off the coast of Newcastle for months at a time, waiting for the antiquated, overburdened coal loader to give them their coal and they can scoot off to China.

The ship's crew maybe saw this as a way to get ashore and into the duty free shop.

kookabat

10th Jun 2007, 01:43

On the cover over one of the mid-deck cargo holds, in big white letters, is a legend that reads
WINCH ONLY.
Mybe that has something to do with it?

The Juggler

10th Jun 2007, 01:46

Is it just me, or is second guessing the crews actions a little demeaning to them. Have a look at some of the photos on the thread titled "Pasha Bulker Rescue" and tell me you would have put down on that deck in those conditions with that amount of water coming over the rails. I certainly wouldn't have wanted to be onboard when you did.

To the Newcastle boys, well done.

crispy69

10th Jun 2007, 02:35

Some of you people are so bloody negative:confused:

It is nice that you know the answer to the situation you were not in:ugh:

There could have been any reason they didnt land on the deck but do they really need to justify it.

I aggree with Juggler they got the crew of safely and that is what counts who cares how they did it.

Russ Reilly

10th Jun 2007, 04:59

If you go down the page a couple of threads and open the photos from the ABC, you will see why they did not land on the ship. There were waves breaking, giving spray above the height of the accommodation! Don't need to be sitting on the deck in that.

TheMonk

10th Jun 2007, 06:17

My thought was why the helicopter was even needed for evac in the first place. They were already beached. Yeah the waves were a little bit on the high side, but...

ShyTorque

10th Jun 2007, 06:30

A question has been asked by a couple of other pilots. Since when has asking a question meant criticism, or the answer to the same question?
:rolleyes:

FH1100 Pilot

10th Jun 2007, 15:15

Since this is PPRUNE, Shy...since this is PPRUNE. :oh:

ShyTorque

10th Jun 2007, 16:49

I think yer right! ;)

pinho_fap

10th Jun 2007, 17:21

Hello there,

I am a SAR Pilot and I understand that some of you look at this video and ask, why not land?
Well, there are several reasons why you shouldn't land.

1. What cargo was the ship carrying?
2. Was there a place designated for landing on deck? If not, how do you know you can safely land? The 412 is not a small bird, and you don't know the weight limitation on the deck.
3. "Winch Only" is self explanatory, I think
4. From the heading of the helicopter in the winching position, I'd say that if you tried to land on deck, you'd get turbulence caused by the superstructure. We've had a close call in our squadron from a situation just like this one.

Why get the crew out? Well, the ship "looks" stable, but is it really? What was the weather forecast? Were the conditions getting progressively worse?

They did get them out safely, didn't they? So why question their decisions? It's very easy to criticize sitting in your sofa...

FH1100 Pilot

10th Jun 2007, 17:41

Pinho, obviously the aircrews did not self-dispatch to the scene. The decision to remove the Filipino boat crew was made by higher-ups. My question is: Why? In the video, the ship does look stable. I've landed on oil platforms and rigs that moved more than it.

If you look at the other thread on this topic, and go to the site that has the still photographs, you can see that all they needed to do was throw a rope ladder over the starboard bow and climb down in the lee. They could have easily walked in to the beach without even getting their shirts wet, I'd reckon! And if it had gone just a few more feet in they wouldn't have even gotten their socks wet. So what was the urgency about airlifting them off? I'm just asking...

As for why the 412 crew didn't just land on the deck - hey, that "winch only" notice was for regular ops, right? This was not that. Certainly a keen 412 driver could have brought his ship in and kept it light-on-the-skids while 60 or 70 Filipinos were loaded (wouldn't only taken one flight!). Yes, even you could've done it without breaking a sweat, just admit it.

But you're right, no telling what the winds were. Okay, so land on the forward-most hatch cover! That was one long ship!

Hey, I'm not knocking the "rescue!" Made for some dramatic footage of helicopters doing what they do best. But you have to wonder...did even one of those crewmembers look up...waaaaaay up...at that 412 that was dripping oil and raining parts down on him and then look at the beach right under the bow and go, "Why am I doing this risky sh*t? It's friggin' COLD out here!"

pinho_fap

10th Jun 2007, 18:12

Well,
looking at that footage, those are normal procedures where I operate (Portuguese Air Force 751 Search and Rescue Squadron, flying the EH101 Merlin). This is why I made the comment, we are not qualified to land on any kind of ships, and we don't do it. My first operational mission as a co-pilot in 2003 was a Medevac from an American USMC Logistics vessel, 900 ft long, with a heliport where two helicopters could land side-by-side, but we didn't land because our Sops tell us not to do it... It actually felt very stupid to be hovering at 30 ft on calm seas and doing winching ops when we had below us a heliport larger than the one we usually operated from. Probably a Portuguese Navy guy would think differently of me (they land Lynx on ships all the time). But maybe that is also the reason those guys didn't land.
You have a point about the distance to the beach, that is very close, and you also have a point that sometimes, rescue operations are launched so that the TV guys can get nice footage of winching ops. I don't know if that was the case, but anyway, thet got out safely...

ShyTorque

10th Jun 2007, 20:21

Pinho, I HAVE been involved in rescue where we landed a SAR machine (an S-76) on a very similar vessel to this one, so I do know it is possible. In our case it was 220 miles offshore and we were keen to conserve fuel and also to effect a rapid and gentle transfer because of the severe (head) injuries involved. We saw it was possible and did so, although we were not briefed either way by SOPs.

I think the restriction on landing on hatch covers is a structural strength issue but even with our wheels, as opposed to load-spreading skids, it was no problem whatseover, despite the ship being under way.

That is the only reason I made my initial comment about wondering why the crew elected to winch. It's NOT a criticism, only a question. Again, as far as I can see no-one else has criticised the crew.

BTW, I never arrived on scene and worried too much about the weather forecast - the actual would be more relevant; we didn't often have sufficient fuel to worry that far ahead!

The Juggler

11th Jun 2007, 03:31

Shy and FH. I don't have a problem with anyone asking questions as to why something was done a certain way, but bold face statements from some as to "I would have done ......." from the safety of their armchairs, without any of the information that the crew had, is as I stated demeaning to them as professional aviators. Yes this is Pprune and as such, a rumour network, but these people are our peers. Why cant we accept their good work and obvious successful outcomes without the need to second guess their judgements.

SGT Schulz

11th Jun 2007, 04:39

Having seen many of these types of ship up close. Some of their maintainence leaves a lot to be desired. But it is amazing how much weight rust can hold!!!

Brian Abraham

11th Jun 2007, 06:40

Not shown on the vid here but they did have massive amounts of water coming over the deck at one stage and I'd say the crew were using their best judgement as you would expect. Sitting on the deck taking green water is not a good place to be. There are enough problems these guys have to contend with wothout monday morning quarterbacking, though questioning for the sake of education I'm sure they would accept. Good war story was the Sea King crew (Oz pilot in UK) who winched the crew from a sinking ship and crossing the beach on the way home (at night) had both engines quit due to salt encrustation on the compressors. Auto made to a sloping landing on the side of a steepish hill with no damage and crew awarded suitable medals for a deed exceptionally well done.

spinwing

11th Jun 2007, 09:01

Well first off the Newcastle Rescue crew are all a very professional mob ....and as it turns out the decision to "winch" turned out to be the correct one.

Looking at the footage I think a deck landing would have put the aircraft,crews and those to be rescued in more danger than the winch excercise.

The deck apparently was very oily and of course very wet (due sea spray) and subject to gale force winds .... now I only got some 3000 hrs in 412 (and a couple of thou on the Bk) so perhaps I could be wrong ... but even on a slightly windy day the 412 in turbulance can be a handful ... and once on that slippery deck may well want to "autolocate" itself to another position on said deck without notice or pilot input .... just think of the consequences if you had 10 rescuees gaily marching toward the a/c and it moved suddenly ....

Nah .... they did it the right way for the conditions at that time.

Very well done chaps.....

Cheers :E

Sgt Schultz .... FYI the ship is owned by the "Lauritzen Line" which if I am not mistaken is Danish owned. I believe their maintenance is Excellent.

(It certainly was when I had the opportunity to sail on their ships MV Thalla Dan and MV Nella Dan to the Antarctic oh so many years ago .....)

Nigel Osborn

11th Jun 2007, 09:07

Question noone has mentioned is why wasn't the S76 at Willytown used. The 76 is vastly superior to this sort of work, landing on the ship that is, compared to a 412. The crews, both front & back seaters, probably have a lot more experience in this type of flying too.
Casting your memory back to 1983 a 76 landed on the Key Biscayne, a jack up oil rig about to capsize, several times while a 205 had to try to winch as it couldn't land due to its inferior landing gear for this type of work.
Not doubting the crew did their best but were they the best crew available?:confused:

spinwing

11th Jun 2007, 09:13

Nigel.....

Probably because the Willytown S76 is on a Military SAR contract ... not for civvy use???? :=

Cheers :E:E

Nigel Osborn

11th Jun 2007, 09:21

Spinwing

The Willy 76 used to do more civvy rescues than RAAF ones, especially when off ships or far out to sea. It may of course be down for maintenance; I'm not in touch with them these days.

helo1

11th Jun 2007, 10:34

To Peter Cook and Nicho and Glenn great job guys you have done your service proud.
To all the wallys out there putting there 2 bobs worth in.
You didnt do the rescue Hunter Westpac did, and did it well.

Westerntribal

11th Jun 2007, 10:37

I'm just a prospective student and have never flown a 412 or a BK117 or any turbine machine for that matter but I watched the rescue unfold so I thought I would pose a few questions..?
1. Wouldn't it be much harder/impossible to control the machine if you set down on a slippery surface and then started moving around due to the wind gusts or the structure moving?
If you want more traction on a slippery surface then you are going to have to put more weight on the skids/wheels... then the load comes off the rotors the engine/engines spool down and if you need to counteract any movement in a hurry your possibly in trouble..?
If you are in the hover at 30ft or whatever away from any obstacles then you have some room to move and are more in control. I know the power margins can be slim while your hovering but it was blowing 30+kts that day.
So from a pilots point of veiw which is the way to go..

2. Anyone know of any forums for Korean coal ship captains because there are a few more questions I have..

LHSboy

11th Jun 2007, 11:34

I have read with interest the many thoughts and opinions associated with this thread. I'm a great believer in that each and every one of us is entitled to their own opinion.

At the end of the day, the guys who were there doing the job know what happened so there is no need to justify their actions. The authorities made the decision to get the crew off the ship and due to the many contributing factors on the day, winching them off was the safest way.

Job well done!:D

smiling assasin

11th Jun 2007, 13:20

To LHSboy.

Mate, what a top job. We watched the TV footage from the comfort of the sim in Sweden and were very envious. However after checking the local weather we realised the 6-7 metre swells and gale force winds would have been more than challenging. A quick search on Australian ABC revealed several pics:

http://www.abc.net.au/reslib/200706/r149555_530804.jpg

http://www.abc.net.au/reslib/200706/r149564_530891.jpg

http://www.abc.net.au/reslib/200706/r149755_531807.jpg

I would love to see some of these so called ‘expert’ pilots who frequent this forum try to land a 6 tonne 412 or a BK on the deck of a slippery coal ship with waves crashing over the top.
I admit the short 1 minute video was at the end of the 2hr long Rescue. Perhaps these pictures should have been posted first to get a better understanding of the initial conditions?

Once again LHSboy, well done. Also to Mcfud, Poops, Aussy, Towball and Porky. Glad it was you and not me!

Nigel quote:

“The 76 is vastly superior to this sort of work, landing on the ship that is, compared to a 412. The crews, both front & back seaters, probably have a lot more experience in this type of flying too..”

With respect. There are a minimum of 50 ships off the coast of Newcastle at any one time. The Westpac guys are doing ship landings once a week day and night to ferry injured sailors to hospital. The pilot roster adorns with ex Navy and marine pilots who specialise in this type of work and have for many years. Don’t start me on the back seat guys!

S A :cool:

Wiggly Bob

11th Jun 2007, 14:36

As an ex Merchant Seaman myself up until 8 years ago, I can tell you I wouldn't care how you got me off, winch, land or whatever. These ships are not designed to withstand the force generated by a) running aground and b) being pounded by the wind and sea whilst beached. As someone pointed out, in some cases maintenance may be a little slack but even a new build may not be up to the beating mother nature will be giving this girl.

Better to get the crew off as a rescue mission than a body recovery excercise.

Full marks to the aircrew and coastguard who would have coordinated this rescue. You guys and girls do your service proud.

Rob

bolkow

11th Jun 2007, 17:38

Apart from the wind which we cant see and the deck angle, there are two reasons I can think of.

200psi

12th Jun 2007, 11:07

Wasn't you was it Nigel on the Key Biscayne :E

bwm85

12th Jun 2007, 11:49

Willy S76 is on deployment to Darwin

redsarboy

12th Jun 2007, 23:53

The willytown 76 was put on standby by AusSar for the task, however the task was handled by local police and not AusSar.

folald

27th Jan 2008, 23:59

Well done to the guys who performed their job well. As we would expect and as we should expect.:D

That aside it's disappointing that at times of need appears to be beyond the 'powers that be' whom are empowered to co-ordinate this type of situation to put aside their petty self interests and ensure ALL of the appropriate available assets are tasked to work together and acheive the best outcome for those in need.

It could well be debated that in this scenario 'IF' following telephone 'medical triage' it was identified that persons are not injured the medical rescue aircraft could be left available to do what they do best (provide care for the sick and injured of the region) and have the willytown boys take care of the current situation.

I may be wrong!:{

I'd love to hear your thoughts on such a system.:ouch:

Oh yes, do us all a favour and play the 'ball' not the 'player' my shins hurt.:} ta

Stay safe:ok:

John Eacott

28th Jan 2008, 00:36

Good war story was the Sea King crew (Oz pilot in UK) who winched the crew from a sinking ship and crossing the beach on the way home (at night) had both engines quit due to salt encrustation on the compressors. Auto made to a sloping landing on the side of a steepish hill with no damage and crew awarded suitable medals for a deed exceptionally well done.

I missed this thread last year, but this post got my attention ;)

The Merc Enterprise went down off Plymouth in a Force 8 early 1974 (IIRC), and we (824) sent one Sea King, and the International Training Unit sent a German SAR machine. This was before the intake screens were fitted, and both machines had significant salt build up on the IGV's which wasn't apparent until 5-6 hours later, when they were nearly back at Culdrose.

Dave Mallock was flying the German SK, and had wildly fluctuating torques crossing the coast, eventually doing a night auto into a field near Predannack. He reckoned that he saw 30 degrees bank on the AH, as they slid through the mud of a ploughed paddock, before stopping upright :eek:

824 SK was on finals to CU with similar fluctuations, and turned back to cover the German machine when Malarky Jim put out his Mayday. Tony, the Australian pilot, decided discretion was the better part when it became apparent that Dave was safe, and he then put down near the local pub and waited for ground transport home :ok:

AFC's to both of them, well deserved. The German SK was eventually airlifted out by a Skycrane, the 824 machine was comp washed and flown home.

And that's one reason why you keep well away from excessive exposure to salt spray when winching :=