Seat allocation for children

[newswatcher]

On a recent flight with a British charter airline, a child of nearly three years old was not allocated a seat, and was carried on a parent's lap for the duration of the flight. Is this within CAA rules?

[Bealzebub]

The UK Air Navigation Order 2005 part 5 section 54 Para 6 & sub para (A) state that :
(6) From the moment when, after the embarkation of its passengers for the purpose of taking off on a flight to which this article applies, it first moves until after it has taken off, and before it lands until it comes to rest for the purpose of the disembarkation of its passengers, and whenever by reason of turbulent air or any emergency occurring during the flight he considers the precaution necessary the commander shall take all reasonable steps to ensure that—
(a) all passengers of 2 years of age or more are properly secured in their seats by safety belts (with diagonal shoulder strap, where required to be carried) or safety harnesses and that all passengers under the age of 2 years are properly secured by means of a child restraint device;
So on the face of it, no. However the CAA would be at liberty to grant a variance if it were requested in exceptional circumstances. Of course there is nothing preventing a child of any age being carried on a parents lap provided the specific rule above was applied at the relevant times, however that would of course require an allocated seperate seat for such times.

[TightSlot]

Children up to the age of 2 may travel on laps (as shown in the previous post) - Older than that and a seat must be purchased and occupied.

There are two areas of difficulty: Firstly, if parents are untruthful about the age of the child, to either or both check-in and Cabin Crew. Secondly, if a small child that is just over the age limit simply refuses to occupy a seat alone for landing, as a last resort, a lap belt may sometimes be used (this is not legal, but very occasionally, necessary.)

[Bangkokeasy]

Surely it is possible to check the age of a child travelling through the passport (even if it is on a parent's)?

[GEAR_DOWN]

I'm sorry tightslot I have to disagree with you on that one. A lap belt should NEVER be given to a parent with a child over the age of 2. If the child will not sit in the seat, then I'm afraid the family has 2 choices - offloaded, or enforce their child to sit there. The child is of an age where it is old enough to sit alone, and the parents should be stronger towards it and ensure that the child will follow their instruction. The child does not lay down the rules to the parents, the parents set down the ruls to the child. I's sorry, but if the parent cannot control their child at an age of 2 years old, then then we have a very sad situation here. The child has got to learn at some point in its life to sit alone, so the earlier this happens the better.

Rules are there for a reason and are not there to be broken under any circumstances. If you were crew on my flight and I found out about this happening, I would not be happy at all. Only on the captains authorisation can the decision be taken to allow the family to be given a seatbelt, but If the child refuses to sit in its own seat for take off and landing, then I would off load the family for delaying the departure of an aircraft. I have done so before, and will continue to do so. The parents are ultimately responsible for the actions of their child, and if they cant control a 2 year old child, then they have to face up to the consequence of possible refused travel.

[routem]

Before everyone starts flaming Gear Down lets just consider the facts. I presume that the 2 year old limit was decided upon with reference to average age / weight. In that case where do you draw the line if you ignore the regulation. I have actually seen a 5 yr old sat on mothers knee with a child belt when there was an empty seat next to her, presumably the childs. Somewhere there will be a limit on the weight / height the additional belt is safe for so the 2 yr old limit has to be sensible. I really dont want to be confronted with a flying child in am emergency situation if the belt doesnt hold them. This is a safety issue, not just for the child and its parent(t). I fully endorse Gear Down post.

[TightSlot]

GEAR_DOWN

I entirely understand your points made: If it is any reassurance to you, I agree, and make the same points to parents at the time, and forcibly. That said, when the situation occurs late in descent, during sterile cockpit and with a crew requirement to be secured as well, there are (exceedingly rare) occasions where a judgement call, and a quick one, is required.

[lexxity]

Simple solution to this, bring your forward facing, five point harness car seat. Strap that to the chair, strap the child in and bobs your uncle.:ok:

Worked for us.

[GEAR_DOWN]

Tightslot - You still astound me as to your clear breaking of the rules here. As you say you are late in descent and the child will not stay in seat - 1: They sat there for take off so why not now! 2: The plane does not land until the cabin is secure. Again it is the parents responsibility not the crews.

If the child still refuses to sit in own seat for landing then you order the parents to physically restrain their child until landing. If it means pinning the kid to its seat then so be it. THE CHILD HAS TO LEARN


p.S a sterile cock pit - what about the interphone?? there is no need to come into the cockpit to explaiun to us

[TightSlot]

Our procedures forbid non-emergency related interphone calls during sterile cockpit periods. You're quite correct about the requirement for discipline, but finals may not always be the best point to initiate the process, especially if the parents do wish not co-operate.

I understand your viewpoint and concerns, but to avoid this thread getting into a one-on-one I'll leave it there.

[Salusa]

GEAR_DOWN, please advise what airline you work for so I can make sure I avoid it in future.

1: They sat there for take off so why not now!

Two years ago I was on a flight from Jakarta to Singapore as SLF when a young child (at least two years old) was seriously playing up. The mother insisted she hold the child as it seemed to calm her slightly.

Rather than order the parents to physically restrain their child until landing the crew arranged for a doctor that happened to be on board to attend the child.

EMS met the aircraft at Changi and the child and both parents were first off.

Turned out the poor kid was in the early stages of Dengue Fever.

[Bealzebub]

If I may pick up the baton for tightslot ? There is no suggestion that the rules are not the rules, however I completely agree that there are circumstances when a significant degree of both common sense and compromise should prevail, and some of those have been highlighted here.

A child over two tears of age ( at the time of travel ) should occupy a seat and it is incumbent upon those responsible for check in and boarding to ensure that is complied with. Accepting that mistakes happen it falls upon the crew to ensure compliance. That compliance however becomes difficult if the suspicion is not aroused prior to departure and is practically redundant once airborne.

In flight if a young child over 2 will not occupy a seat and the parents cannot or will not enforce compliance then clearly there has to be a sensible compromise, unless you want to fly around in circles arguing the point, which obviously is an option. Neither tightslot nor I are in any way advocating a violation of the statute on this matter, however there are certain circumstances where common sense must prevail and as a captain I would in those circumstances both condone and if required support tightslots response or any member of the crew that had to make a mature considered decision in such difficult circumstances.

Obviously I appreciate others might disagree and they would certainly have the relevant sections of the act to support their case, but I can find other sections to argue my own if need be.

[chornedsnorkack]

Obviously if you have passengers who are not secured in cabin because they are busily hacking away the cockpit door, it would be safer to land (and hope the attackers are thrown off-balance by the landing) and let the attackers be dealt with on land, instead of circling in hope somebody overcomes them while they are actually making progress with the door.

If you have a critically ill person lying unsecured on aisle or galley floor, and people around trying to give first aid, it is also better to land and hope the person is not suffering further injuries by the landing forces, rather than hope the patient is not injured by hauling him or her into a seat and securing there.

Now, if there is a disruptive child... you might proceed to land without securing the child properly, and deal the child as a medical diversion. Or you might proceed to land and report the child and parents for air rage on land.

Is it also legal to do neither and allow the child to land unsecured without either sort of follow-up?

[strake]

Gear Down, having read your previous messages, I have to believe you are some sort of Walt.

Surely no working flight crew could ever have your attitude to life?

[GEAR_DOWN]

I Resent that comment . Indeed who are you to comment on my ability to be flight crew????

[strake]

< I Resent that comment . Indeed who are you to comment on my ability to be flight crew????>

"Passengers & SLF (Self Loading Freight) If you are regularly a passenger on any airline then why not post your views or questions here? Many of us pilots like to know exactly what you think of us, the job, the airline or anything that you think we should hear about."

Amongst other things, I am a very regular passenger so, there you go, as requested, I've told you exactly what I think about you.....

[Luke0705]

When Going to turkey One year my 3 year old cousin Had her own seat , When we went to land She went itno a real Temper . Cut a long story short she was in the aisle when we landed.

We were aloud to get of the Plane first and The anfterwards we found out that Her ears Had popped.

So The Kids dont normally Kick off For no Reason, And Kids do have Tantrums every Now and again Its NATURAL !

But I do Feel that mothers should Try Restraining the child to there seats For their safety, But like in my situation it was'nt realy possible!

[Saintsman]

I think that the original thread said that the child was not allocated a seat.

If I'd paid for a ticket for the child, I'd not be too happy if they didn't give him / her a seat.

[Pandora's Box]

I totally agree 100% with GEAR_DOWN.

Nearly every day I have a parent shout at me because i wont let their child, over 2, sit on parents lap for take off and landing. Every time i will state the "over 2 they have to sit on own seat" paragraph.

I also totally agree with off-loading the parent and child if they will not comply with procedures, as regards to sitting in their own seat. If the parent is trying to sit the child in the seat then fine, but when they actually argue with you to have the child on lap then they will be threatend with an off-load, simple as!!

Rules are rules, they are there for a reason and not to be broken!!

What also makes me laugh is when the parent ask's ME to tell THERE child to sit down....you do it, your the parent, show some authority over your child for god sake :ugh:

[Getoutofmygalley]

What also makes me laugh is when the parent ask's ME to tell THERE child to sit down....you do it, your the parent, show some authority over your child for god sake :ugh:

I used to think that, but after the amount of years that I have been flying I now appreciate it when a parent makes that comment. If I say to the child to "sit down, and do as you are told" the parent usually then says to the kid something like "See, the man is saying you have to sit down, now do it" I normally find the kid will then get into its seat and look at me as if it's going to cry and will stay there for the take off/landing. If it doesn't sit down, I then give it an imposing stare and it will then be guaranteed to sit down and shut up.

Maybe I just look terrifying to kids!...... :E

[Bealzebub]

Pandora,

That is fine, but you are not always "on the ground" when this sort of problem arises. In reality you can only do so much. If a child will not keep its seat belt fastened and the guardians will not or cannot comply with the instruction then you can do one of two things. You can ensure compliance to the best of your ability and deal with the matter on arrival as is deemed fit, or you can force compliance. In reality you would be very "brave" to undertake the latter as a complaint of assault would have far greater consequences than the complaint that you had ( despite your best efforts ) failed to totally secure a cabin.

As I say common sense and compromise sometimes has to take precedence no matter what your feelings may be concerning parents or children. There are other circumstances where full compliance might not be achieved ( for example if a passenger was having an "attack" or seizure). Then it would be a case of securing as best you could and accepting the compromise due to circumstances. This situation might seem willful or avoidable but in a few cases the end result must be the same. If it were an adult refusing to comply you could bring action upon arrival. With a child the problem is slightly different but the action could still be brought upon the guardian. However the situation for you is still that you can only do your best within the bounds of reason and common sense.

[Pandora's Box]

Bealzebub,

Most of the time its on landing when you cant secure the kid, if the parent dos'nt and wont comply, obviously i cant off-load, but i will take further action...i.e a dissruptive pax log!! At the end of the day its safety first, spoilt kid last!

Obviously if you have someone having an "attack" or a seizure then you do the best you can to secure them, but thats a completely different story because its a medical emergency, not some spoilt kid having a tantrum :*

[PAXboy]

In the matter of making a small child sit in it's own allocated seat ... and the statement by TS that it was sometimes necessary to mix the rules when you are already long into the descent.

LHR ~ GVA on Swiss about ten years ago - the flight is seared into my brain. Daylight and good weather for a lunch time sector.

I was in 'C' on the Starboard side of three seats. I had the window. A well dressed woman was in the aisle and the infant, about four I think, was between us. Throughout the two hour flight, he was perfectly well behaved. Until it was time for seat belts ...

He kicked and screamed and crawled around the floor. I was astounded at the change in him, the child was two characters. The mother worked very hard to mollify him and the CC did their best. I helped to drag him off the floor and put him in the seat and two of us had to put the belt on to him.

For the last minutes of descent, through to the roll-out, his mother held him and tried to passify him and I held onto the buckle so that he could not release it. He screamed loudly throughout, thrashing around in the seat.

Once we were taxying in - the other child reappeared and he was calm and quiet. The mother was most apologetic but I said that I could see that she had done all that she could. The CC gave me a big Thank You.

Thus, I have no doubt that the action that senior CC may occasionally have to take, by allowing a child to be in a parental lap, is valid. The child's behaviour at departure and approach were utterly different and the hysteria could not have been anticipated. In this case, the law was followed but the noise and disruption to the whole flight was significant. If the child will not be restrained and the parents will not hold it down - then let it be in the aisle and take what's coming to it.

[Avman]

Gear_Down, if you were ever a parent (which I seriously doubt) I feel sorry for your kids. I was lucky, my kids enjoyed flying and never gave me any problems. I now have a grandson who is just over two years old. He is a dream. Very well behaved and never any trouble. However, I have no idea how he might react to a flight, especially in the descent when kids notoriously suffer ear ache and can, as a result, look for comfort from the parent(s). I don't dispute the rules, but I do most definitely dispute your attitude which for me clearly indicates that where children are concerned you haven't got the remotest clue.

[routem]

Oh Dear, where have all these vitriolic SLF appeared from. After reading all the posts since my original support for Gear Down I find that I havn't changed my mind!! This is a common sense thing - its called safety and its for the childs benefit. I am SLF, a parent and a grandparent and I would far sooner have seen any of my lot strapped safely into a seat and screaming than take the chance of them bursting out of the supplementary belt if anything went wrong. What would you prefer? Your child screaming but safe or flying around the cabin if something did, unfortunately, go wrong. At what age and size do you accept that its not safe, 5 yrs old, 10, 15 ? Cabin Crew, and Flight Crew, have a hard enough time coping with the mirriad regulations that now seem mandatory. Think about it, you wouldnt want to be seated unsafely in an emergency situation would you, so why make your child do it.

[GEAR_DOWN]

Avman - I am a parent of 4 and believe me I would never allow my child to behave in such a manner. There is no reason for your child to behave in such a manner. Why should youlet your child rule the parent. If the child will not sit down and act responsibly, then it should be reprimanded. Obviously you avman are one of those parents who lets your child rule you, and you couldnt give a sh*t about how your child behaves onboard an aircraft and just pull the wool over you eyes. Think it should be you who needs parenting classes.