Resignation/hire ratio

[Nullaman]

Thought I heard a person in the know say that with the present spike in resignations the system could go into a crewing deficit with the new aircraft coming. T or F? Who is leaving and from which fleets? Must have my head in the sand:hmm:

[sizematters]

well, many going to Oasis or in Fact gone already, about 7 from the classic so far (2/3 check/trainers, 1 line cn and 4 F/O's) quite a few from -400 Freighter (CN & F/O) as the freighter salaries are insufficient to A) make anyone take a freighter command or B) Stay with CX.................
Of course about 40 in the "Pool" at UPS some gone already, some waiting for course dates. Many US Based guys don't like the Check & training system so are accepting recalls to legacy carriers, and of course Fedex are recruiting as well..................
Interestingly Mr .R, on his recent fact finding tour of NA stated that "Fedex and UPS are not our competition"...................

well, wake up Mr.R if those are the carriers taking your expensively trained pilots, I guess that makes them your competition !!!! so whilst CX needs to increase it's pilot force, rumour has it the pilot population is shrinking due to the turnaround in the market.......................

[Fenwicksgirl]

Yeah and Mr R was quoted as saying he is happy that our T & Cs are at market value.....doesnt bade well for pay rise talks.....oh hang on, thats what we call bluffing!!!!
Next will come the, "we have to be carefull about LCCs, cost base, RPKs etc etc"
Translated = we have to protect our director's bonuses!

[cpdude]

doesnt bade well for pay rise talks

Again, could live with the current pay if CX was honest with the profit share. SQ getting 6 months and we get 7 days. Shame on you CX!

Bottom line...CX as a corporation has no respect for it's employees and it's employees has no respect for them. A sad state created by senior management.:*

[badairsucker]

cpdude :D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:
It will come back and bite them in the arse!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!CAN'T WAIT FOR THAT.

[hostile23]

The only ones taking it up the arse will be the pilots.................

Business as usual boys:ok:

[Fenwicksgirl]

Hostile i share your thoughts.
However, i think that our saving grace will be the amount of choices out there for pilots in the near future. I too get frustrated that we are our own worst enemies but i think that with choice comes action. In the recent past, pilots havent lifted a finger to help themselves because what options were there. Hopefully now pilots will be able to say, "sorry not good enough, i'm off!" But then i have had a couple of wines so maybe......

[Mr. Bloggs]

Don’t think many will say I’m off. Their balls are sucked up so far, some are using them as eyeballs. But then again, I’ve had a couple of wines.

We tried action in 99 and 01. Only people that won were those that got CX shares at $7.47. We all know what happened after that. Must be doing quite well now.

We are our own worst enemy because we don’t think as a group, its all individuals. Don’t think people look at the big picture stuff.:yuk:

[moosp]

sizematters, I take the point that Oasis are hiring, but the "many going to Oasis" is relative. If 40 go, that is 2% of the pilot workforce, which can easily be absorbed by scheduling.

The Freighter case is more serious, which explains why NR went to ANC to get the grassroots opinions. Not only are we losing pilots from the section that we have the most difficulty in staffing, but established pilots now have a better offer. And they will continue to have one, now that we are seen as a training organisation for American carriers.

As you probably know, a group of airlines, of which CX is one, have regular HR/FLTOPS meetings to do the management equivalent of the "Terms and Endearment" forum here. Obviously the American carriers cannot attend for anti-trust reasons, but you can be sure that they get the minutes.

The answer is the one that was used in previous pilot shortages, albeit many years ago. You simply change the admission requirements. As an example, an airline can operate wide body jets with 200 hour propjet guys in the right hand seat and 1,500/300 jet in the left. It's not pretty but it works, and people still fly on airlines that have had hull losses. Many LOCO/Zero service airlines do this already. Get the right people into the management of your airline, and they will accept it.

The most powerful productivity tool of management is to reduce the professionalism of pilots into a staff commodity. That is what we as pilots have to resist.

[hostile23]

The best summary of the world wide predicament airline pilots are facing that I have read for a long time. Bloody well said.:ok:

[parabellum]

And don't forget, over the last forty years , just when pilots thought the pendulum was swinging their way a 'major' went bust and deposited several hundred highly qualified pilots on the market, shortage, (and negotiating advantage), over.

CX, like most of the major carriers, have never had recruiting problems, when it is a pilots market they still get to choose who they want as the major carriers are always in demand, when it is an employers market they just choose who they want.

The idea that the end is nigh etc. for major carriers where employment of pilots is concerned is just wishful thinking, it is the lower echelons of aviation that will suffer, always was, always will be.

[OldChinaHand]

One can always afford to be arrogant whilst holding the high ground, as CX/KA has in the employment stakes for the past number of years. But one can ill afford to be arrogant when the enemy has cleaved a number of your troops and the defences are weakened.

I understand that cargo interviews are now ill attended. Standard of prospective employee has dropped. Perhaps the day of the "majors" has passed in HKG. The pollution, scavenged conditions of service, salary ravaged by inflation and low morale amongst the other bug bears have cast the "likely canditates" into the arms of "home based Carriers".

Parked Airplanes cost money and dont make money. It cannot fly without Pilots and Hong Kong aint no bed of roses for that Career any more.

[Numero Crunchero]

A couple of thoughts.

In my opinion if the relatively unionised, legislatively protected pilot's unions couldn't win in australia in 1989, then we know confronting CX 'head on' is not a realistic option here in HKG today. The only thing they seem to respond to is the sound of the footsteps fading of recent departees.

Do not underestimate what effect a small % of departures has right now. Let me give you a very small, but simplistic example.

Lets say we have a pilot body of 10(all CNs). One guy is full time checking and training the other 9 guys. Well this little company decides to expand by say 10-20% per year. Well now they have to use guy no 9 in an expansion role. He has to train for two purposes...1, to replace his own position since 9 pilots were previously doing all the work, and 2, to train up the expansion guys. Now just imagine if one of the other 8 guys chooses to leave! Now guy no 10 was busy with recurrent training, guy no 9 was busy with expansion training. Guy no 1 has left...so presumably guy no 2(or 3-8) has to take on the job of training his replacement. Whilst this guy is training his replacement he is offline and cannot contribute to the growth of the airline. So before the expansion there were 9 guys doing the work...as the expansion started, 8 guys did the work waiting for guy no 9 to train his replacement...then another guy leaves leaving them with 7 guys....see the domino effect!

SO a 1 or 2% resignation rate has a huge impact in times of huge growth and minimal impact in times of no growth.

[Fenwicksgirl]

Numero, am glad you added your summary at the end, kind of got lost in that but get your point.
There is no doubt that CX will be attractive to alot of people still, but not as much as it used to. To those who say CX has always survived these pilots shortages etc, i say that was then.....we now have China, Middle East and India taking up so much of the slack that CX must take notice. If UPS/Fed Ex keep going at their rate and the N.American majors start really upping the ante, CX will be left high and dry very quickly!!
For me CX is a very good airline to work for in most aspects, however, whether they are going to be worth staying in HKG for in a couple of years will be another thing. From what i have heard from others, we all feel that where we plan our careers in a couple of years time will be dependant on what happens this time around with the talks. It would be the easiest thing if i can continue with CX, however, i will not overlook better offers back home in Oz should they arise.....market forces and all that!!!

[fiftypercentn1]

i still cant believe people with 2-3000 hrs mostly on jets accept to be SO's for 3-4 yrs(?)..it 's amazing..really dont get whats attractive of this airline..

[404 Titan]

fiftypercentn1

It’s a bit like some of us can’t see what’s so good about working for a LCC and having to pay for your endorsement, work your arse off on short haul sectors and then getting sh*t pay for the privilege. I suppose it’s horses for courses really isn’t it?:yuk:

[WaldoPepper]

fiftypercentn1,

In countries where most of the recruits come from, Australia, NZ, Sth Africa, Canada, you can easily have up to 5000 hrs and have little chance of ever moving up from a turbo prop or even light twin.

IMHO that's why these experienced pilots still come looking for the heavy metal (and lets not forget more pay) job in HKG.

However, in the near future, with airlines such as Virgin Blue and Jetstar expanding as quickly as they are, I can see the potential candidate numbers reducing. I know if I had a job in OZ flying with 1 of those companies, I doubt I would have come to HKG. I might even go back sooner than I had anticipated.

[newbie1972]

Ok. I'll jump in and give it a go...

The North Americans are tending to give CX a wide berth as reported several times previously. The COS are simply not attractive enough and the culture in both management and training (sorry...checking) is a well known joke. Word is simply getting around; pilots in North America have more and superior choices. These guys are experienced and will not tolerate being treated like children/200 hour CPL's as guys and girls are at CX.

The South Africans will always come. It's the only way they can earn and keep money out of S Africa.

The Kiwis will always come, but the NZD at it's current level is not making CX a particularly attractive option. The buying power of the 'mighty' CX dollar (i.e. HKD) has erroded some 40+ percent over the last decade when considered in terms of the NZD.

The Ozzies are in a similar situation to the Kiwis. The difference is that there are more options in Australia. In particular now that Virgin is about to poach a whole bunch of 777 drivers from CX and EK. I am sure that the package will be just enough to entice folks away from the sandpit and pollution city. This is especially in the Capt rank. That will hurt both CX and EK.

As stated previously, the strength of the Euro and GBP is tending to make Europeans think twice about heading to CX.

All this and the shortage of pilots elsewhere and people simply see other options as being better. Additionally, many know the crap that CX pilots have to put up with in terms of hoops to jump through (yes, even from the interview. Sorry, who started this airline? The name of the first plane? What engine is on the 773? How many 777's? Describe mach tuck? Really important stuff!!). Again, word is getting around about all the shyte that CX guys have to put up with. Expect 10 years of it. Only when you have a command does it pretty much stop. And don't expect one soon if 65 goes through. Gotta fight that one I tell ya!

NR knows it's gonna be tough. He'll want to push a deal through now as he knows it's gonna be cheap compared to 1 year from now when the sqeeze really starts to tell in terms of pilots (lack of) and planes (lots of). It's his career on the line more than ours.......

[fiftypercentn1]

thanx waldo for ur answer..obviously being from Europe I didnt know that side of the Oz/Kiwi/sth Afr. recruitment situation.

404 Titan: I get your point, but trust me LCCs can be better than the way u picture them. If ure wiv a good one, money is quite good,fixed roster pattern, brand new aircraft, command is really quick, u have a huge choice of bases + u can move around when u feel like, quite common to fly 60 to 70 hrs a month (donno if u consider that a lot or very little..), atmosphere is very good, plus i dont mind flying many approaches a week. Obviously theres downsides as well, not sayin the opposite. That was why I was wandering why one would ever consider sittin on a jumpseat for yrs..(can u consider that PAYING for your endorsement?..i would say so..)
thanx ciao

[BigPimpin]

uumm...have you heard of an LCC called SWA? sh!t pay, huh? plus you actually get to FLY instead of sitting on your arse clicking on the mike. i don't mind the multiples sectors either (the way they pay us), keeps me sharp and proficient.

BTW, i turned down a DEFO interview with CX to go to SWA! Looks like a no brainer to me. G'day!

[boxjockey]

Please don't make out the SO gig to be something it's not. Lots of us come here with plenty of experience. I was an RJ capt in the states, and passed up on other opportunities to come here. I make double the pay and I don't work. I have 20 days off per month. I think if they would let me, I may be a career SO!!
:ok:

box

[Flyin Low]

boxjockey... here fuc$%n here! Likewise although not quite an RJ captain but I too joined for those exact reasons, career SO.. I WISH!!

[fiftypercentn1]

eheheh. how can i reply to statements like these:eek:??...u obviously dont enjoy flying anymore, so its probably the best deal 4 u.
glad to be a short haul FO.:)

[Flyin Low]

ha ha i am pretty boozed right now but not worth taking the piss out of those of us that don't give a shi$! anyone up for the chai tonight? don't even know when i have to work again but I know it's not in the next 4 or 5 days... work it out when i'm crook tomorrow i guess.
Yep... long haul sucks :p enjoy none of your hang overs :O

[fiftypercentn1]

mmm..ok...:bored:

[act700]

Pay for your endorsement;

I think he means that you actually have to put up cash ($$$) in order to buy your rating.

SWA is no different-pay for training; unless you had some other airline rate you in the 73.

Pay for training=paying your own $s for the rating.

[BigPimpin]

Not me! Got mine through UAL back in the days.

What about those CX SO's? What kind of rating do they get? A BE-76 rating from ADL? Hahahahahahharharhar Or some bullsh!t fake P2X 744 type rating? YGTBSM!

[boxjockey]

I definitely still enjoy flying. I have had many different flying experiences. I will definitely have plenty more. I think a three year paid vacation is quite good actually. Who cares about the P2X rating. I didn't come here for a type. Already have one of those. What else would you like to spray? I don't need to fluff my feathers, brother. I love my job, how about you? :ok:

box

[Glass Half Empty]

"ha ha i am pretty boozed right now but not worth taking the piss out of those of us that don't give a shi$! anyone up for the chai tonight? don't even know when i have to work again but I know it's not in the next 4 or 5 days... work it out when i'm crook tomorrow i guess.
Yep... long haul sucks :p enjoy none of your hang overs"

I guess the difference is that when you get the opportunity to move up to FO - SFO - CAPT status you will find it very hard going having had your skills eroded over the intervening years through lack of operating. I doubt it will be a pleasurable time trying to get back into it. Good luck anyway.:ok:

[Captain TOGA]

Not me! Got mine through UAL back in the days. And why did United to give you a free type? Are you telling us that you used to be a Captain with United?

[I'mbatman]

Most US majors type both pilots.

[eaglejet]

Not on narrowbodies, both pilots get typed once they get on the 75, 76 or 777 because those guys do international. Jumpseated last week on UAL and the FO had only SIC type rating........

[boxjockey]

Well, with a name like BigPimpin, we should all hang on your every word, oh wise one. Got your type back in the day, huh? So how far back in the day was that, Mr. Le Pimp? And if you are indeed so happy at SWA, then why are you here in the fragrant harbour trolling? Everyone has to follow their own path, sounds to me like maybe you chose the wrong one....? Maybe not. I truly hope you are happy. Great company with great people. Enjoy your time in ELP, MCI, BWI, etc. G'day!!!!!!! :ok:

box

[machten]

I think the pimp is full of you know what. But, UA just recently started type rating all FOs. Maybe he jumped ship as soon as he got it. Anyway, who gives a you know what.

Box, with 20 days off what kind of schedule do you have? Sounds too good to be true. Can you get a whole block of days off say 8-10? I might have to commute to NA for the first couple of months. I'm joining on Sept on the 747.

[boxjockey]

I normally have three trips per month. Usually start late at night or in the afternoon of the first day, and finish early in the morning on the last. In reality it is three 4 day trips, but they aren't that long. You have a sim every other month. Reserve replaces one trip every other month. That's about it. I regularly get a group of between 7-10 days off in a month. Sometimes as many as 12. Some of the others are correct however, you may find you get a bit bored with not flying, but when you look at all of the positives, I think they outweigh this fact and the others that have been discussed here ad nauseum. Hope this helps. :ok:

box

[WaldoPepper]

Just for info,

Those days off they are talking about above are if you are SO on the B744.

If you start on the airbus, you'll be on ULH for the first 9 months or so. You'll get the days off they state in the above posts. After 9 months, you'll get CCQ'd onto the A330. I now do (and have done since being CCQ'd) 5 trips a month. The most time off in between 2 trips would be 7 days. This is working off a normal roster, not a Super Compact Roster. Once the roster comes out, you can swap and sometimes I can achieve 10 days off in a row, but it takes some time to get the swaps processed.

This current month I have 4 AUS trips and 1 ULH to London (and still haven't passed the 83 hrs mark). I couldn't believe I was going to Europe! wait a second...it's my annual line check.

WP

[machten]

WP and Boxjocke, thanks for the insight.

[whazitdoinnow]

It looks like the SO's are overpaid for the work they are doing!!!! Management is taking note.

[Wing Flex]

It looks like the SO's are overpaid for the work they are doing!!!! Management is taking note.

haha.... I don't think so... Try the SO's at QF.

[fiftypercentn1]

the truth is, it is absolutely unfair to be demoted to SO for a jet FO or even worse a Capt. And I m not talking money or rosters, Im talking about the pride we should all take in our job.
If people are willing to do it for different reasons, then this is something not to be judged, but i still think its unfair for an airline to do this.

[junior_man]

It was not that long ago that every pilot hired in the USA was a flight engineer for the first year or seven years depending on growth. SO is better than being an oiler.
I have flown 15 years of short haul in the US and now am enjoying this. Many more days off and I don't miss those lovely overnights in the nasty Ramadas etc with the 4 am wake up for another 5 leg day with a 3 hour productivity break in some hub city. And no, I don't miss the 737 with it's 1950s KC 135 cockpit (even if stuffed full of glass now) noisy, lousy airconditioning....

[sizematters]

Even a few going to Virgin Blue apparently.....................and it seems that even the 3rd floor are getting the message that all is not well with the troops....................A guy was told at his recent "end of Probabtion Interview"., "so, IF you decide to stay with us what do expect to do at Cathay"..................mmmmmmmm, never used to be like that, the thought of people leaving was almost unheard of, now, CX is just another airline scrabbling to fill seats by offering insufficient salaries....................

wake up and smell the roses, at the end of the day people will put up with the 1960 check and training as long as the paycheck makes it worthwhile.....................but, right now, it don't

[Yeager]

:ok:Pathetic. Dont come to Cathay to enjoy flying. There is no such thing here. Its all about FCOM3s (operational procedures etc) that are so anal and rigid that you really dont have a frame work to use your own brain (some might prefer that - and so be it!). You are professionally dead at this Mickey Mouse "Airline". For your own sake go flying for somebody that actually looks at u as being a professional. This company is an old RAF leftover of a **** place. It pretends that CRM is an integrated part of the non-existent framework and management truely believe that they have got a top end product flightdeck trained (all most piss in my pants while even bothering to mention those words in connection with CX!:ok:) - its all a nothing but dreams. Most American and European establish airlines are light years ahead of the CX operation. To put it simple CX are left in the 70-80s.

Guys are leaving for reason, among others, for the above.
Happy flying old chaps.

[newbie1972]

the odd ex RAAF chap that gives the long sleeve brigade a run for their money in the @sshole stakes! You know who you are!

[BusyB]

Yeager,

Don't like to burst your bubble (its probably got something in it) but having worked for other "major established airlines", and with friends who still do, it seems CX is pretty standard. There are a few management and training a*******s who are difficult in every airline so thats par for the course. Most professionals can cope with them, its part of the job.;)

[inciter]

"Most professionals can cope with them, its part of the job."

Most Professionals would not bend over, they would politely tell them to F--- off and move on.

[BusyB]

inciter,

When you learn some CRM you'll be so much better for it. At least the dinosaurs had the excuse that they never had to use it (and they'll be extinct soon). What's your excuse?:yuk:

[geldap]

Its not only the pilots who have difficulty retaining staff. Engineering is the same. This is due to the "word being out" on the lack of respect CX has for its own staff. The T & Cs and renumeration packages are uncompetitive as well. People will take a certain amount of **** treatment for the requisite amount of dosh, but when thats crap as well its easy to see why CX are having problems. At one time CX had a queue of people wishing to join - nowadays most people with any sort of conscience will not touch them with a barge pole. What goes around comes around eh !!!!

[555orange]

So really guys...how bad is the FO/CA roster compared to other majors? How many HOURS do you fly a month? Does the company have a standard for REST AT HOME? Because obviously, if you have a family, you don't give a rats arse about rest on the road. Too many companies in the past would rest crews on the road and too many a divorce was filed due to companies not giving a crap about the pilots FAMILY TIME. That said, how are the hotels on the road. Please give me actual hotels...not just "they are crap"... I will make my own judgement. I am in a country where the taxes are 50%, the flying is average...(well its just work now right)....and after you pay your bills and mortgage you got nothing left. Wanna trade? I am interested in the possible lifestyle and extra cash in pocket that Hong Kong can offer. Honest answers please...

[555orange]

geldap...comparing renumeration scales...Cathay seems average with other majors from my sources...but they are old. Considering coming over...do you have any hard facts you can share....comparitive that is...to other companies? Don't forget the tax rates. Mine is 50%. What is yours? Thanks. I am already aware of the freighter deal. What about the rest? PAX in HKG? Give me the nos please. Thanks.

[goingdown]

Tax is 15-16% in HKG.:ok:

[Yeager]

BusyB,

Chap, you are very right, there are dickheads and a...... in any company - the major difference between "any other company" and CX is that here those people can/will screw peoples future by an anal eras/filing system that are being review by anal focused old RAF body body boys. Some guys (prob most) will never have problems with them folks up there - but on the other hand a lot of the guys just says OIC and take the shaft. Nasty to look at actually - Im sure a lot of you have seen it or maybe you have become blind. As a human being we are adaptable - but to this anal focused airline - me - I do not think so - actually I can not.

See you around for some time to come - but hey - dont look for the shaft behind me :ok:

40nm between those fluffy white things.. Upside down.. :D

[BuzzBox]

Huh????????????????????????:confused:

[sizematters]

apparently about 20 guys off the 777 lined up to join Virgin in australia when they get their 777's..............................

keep walking boy's............it's good for those that remain !!!

[inciter]

BusyB,
You better look up the CRM definition. Following two steps behind, having to put up with BS and ending each sentence with "yes Sir" ain't part of it.