Petition the goverment!

[UAV689]

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/Pilot-training

[bri1980]

Done! Not sure if it will help, but we have to try!

[Felix Saddler]

I did sign it, however, I have very little faith in its success. We can all hope though!

[jasperyellow]

Whilst I think this is a good idea a better idea would have been to have petitioned for tax breaks on professional pilot training rather than just asking for support.

[potkettleblack]

Its a nice idea in theory and I applaud your enthusiasm to try and make a change rather than just blowing hot air like most do.

Problem is if it was to win approval (which it won't) it will drag even more wannabes into the frame to become budding pilots. What will that do to your individual chances of success?

Anyone want to guess at the success rate from people that have a CPL/IR at landing a commercial flying job? I would guess 10-15% tops based solely on keeping in touch with guys I met through flying training.

[WildDart]

Its a good idea, but the minority arn't going to much, need more people to sign up, also the aviation career is heavily desirable, unlike many other careers. So that's possibly why they haven't got it.

[zombie_autopilot]

So far, does it not take someone with great desire and ambition to become a Pilot? So much commitment financially and mentally must go into it, (and I suspect physically too). Therefore the sponsorhsip schemes and airlines simply want those select few who are able to go the distance and prove that this is the path for them. I think it is made an exceptionally difficult career to get into for a reason. As to weed out those fair-weather, "oh lets give it a go" characters, who think It would be a fun idea. Wouldn't having government support make it much easier for these types of people to become pilots. I mean there are still selection procedures in place, and minimum qualifications needed, but the financial side is the biggest (or make or break) area of whether people are willing to work to get it.

Would this really be good?

[potkettleblack]

I agree Zombie. I would hate to think how many sets of ATPL manuals the likes of Bristol sell each year that sit gathering dust on someones shelf.

The thing is that the airlines are always going to find what they consider to be the best candidates anyway and the provision of a subsidy is not going to bring more jobs. Okay it might allow a few well equipped and able people who are from disadvantaged backgrounds to get into the scene but for the most part it will just allow your average wannabe to reduce their costs.

I have read various threads by Scroggs over the years where he argues that in real terms flight training is at the lowest its ever been. Debt is easy to obtain and relatively high salaries for those who take up an alternative career prior to getting into flying make the costs that bit more bearable.

[Luke SkyToddler]

First things first, that is the most appallingly badly written petition I have ever seen. It doesn't exactly read like a professionally worded request for assistance from a group of intelligent young people, in fact it looks like nothing so much as a text message from a petulant 16 year old with a C minus in English. Do you think that the Prime Minister is going to loan £60 grand to someone who can't even construct a simple sentence? Apart from the cringe worthy grammar, you might at least have made an attempt to construct an argument as to why you need the money - as opposed to a simple 'why not pilots?'. Why not underwater basket weavers or professional strippers instead? I'm sorry but if that was a covering letter to an airline it would go straight in the bin.

And secondly, you should all be very careful what you wish for.

Why do you think the HSBC pulled the pin on loans for pilot training last year? Because the number of defaulters was too high. Why was the level of defaulters too high? Because there was - and always will be - a much greater number of wannabe pilots than jobs and a large percentage of them never achieve their dream. And then they end up trying to repay their £60000 loan by working at Tesco since they've got no other qualifications.

I'm all in favour of trying to lower the cost of pilot training - by VAT breaks etc - so that at least the ones who inevitably miss out won't have to repay so goddam much. But that's a different issue to lending money to people, with the training industry in its current state.

In New Zealand, where it is in fact possible to get a student loan from the government for professional pilot training, the local industry cranks out around 500 CPLs a year - in a country where there's only one big airline and they hire an an average of a couple dozen people a year from the regionals (and in some years none at all). By some strange coincidence, NZ professional pilots get paid some of the the lowest wages of any first world country as well.

At the end of the day all that's going to happen if the government started subsidizing loans for training, with things the way they are, is that the ones who are prepared to borrow and spend the most will only find something else to spend their money on to get ahead of the pack. Like maybe go and buy MORE type ratings, MORE buying-hours-on-type schemes, work for free for even LONGER, give even MORE money to Mr O'leary for the privilege of working in his aerial sweat shop, and generally do a great deal more damage than they've already done to the working conditions of real pilots in their desperate scramble to get their hands on a shiny jet.

Seriously guys. Go and withdraw that petition right now because it looks like a mess and will do a lot more harm than good to prospects of any future petitions getting taken seriously. Then, have a proper reasoned discussion on here about what this industry really needs and how can you get the government to help you. Then, appoint someone who actually has a grasp of the English language to construct a proper argument and write a sensible, sober petition to them. Who knows you might actually get somewhere!

[smoothkpilot]

The last thing this Government is going to do is support an industry that is currently seen as a major contributer to carbon outputs and one that has a carbon footprint the size of an elephant. Unfortunately, in the past becoming an airline pilot has been reserved for those from the middle to upper classes or those from an aviation military background. In recent years the success of the UK economy has made it much easier for the average working man to get access to funds to finance his training. Despite this not everyone who completes a CPL/IR is airline material and that is one reason why there is such a low success rate in new wannabees getting jobs. What is needed is a shake-up of the training industry, for too long training schools have been selling the dream of once you complete your training you'll walk into a job. To get a job in this game takes determination, ambition, fortitude, focus, very deep pockets and a little bit of luck. Rather than Goverment intervention in helping pilots and wannabees (the last thing we need here is more red tape, especially as Gordon is about to take the stand) the training environment needs more structure and a clearer defined path similar to that in the US and Canada. Rather than just completing an integrated or modular course and ending up with no experience at the end, there should be more emphasis on instructing at various levels, building up some sort of experience before even approaching an airline. The training programs that the US and Canada follows is far more structured and defined. Everyone who is training to become a pilot knows where they stand in the big scheme of things, most guys over there don't even get near a jet or turbo-prop with less than 1000 hours (this time being built up during a period of instructing of flying light twins or singles, starting of as a CFI, CFII, then multi etc). This way of training creates a far more capable pilot with some experience and is much less a training risk for the airlines. Whether or not this is going to happen in the UK and Europe is doubtful, I myself am an instructor with a Frozen ATPL, MCC etc and approaching 600TT. Recently the only guys I see getting jobs are those who are willing to pay for their own Type Ratings, a small number still manage to get their first job through contacts, a fewer still through the old CV route. And before anyone asks, yes I am considering paying for my own Type Rating and with hours on type. I never thought I would have to but one must be realistic and adapt to market changes. The market has changed and airlines are now realising that they can cut training costs and risks by getting wannabees to pay for their own training. Its a shame but I think Goverment intervention would make things worse, if they can't even support standard student loans for universities why would they support pilots.
Just my thoughts but I'm sure there are those who will disagree.
Smoothk:cool:

[phantomcruiser07]

I agree with smooth and lukesky, personally I also think airlines them selves should help low hours pilots get more experience, eg get them a type rating and then the student pays its worth by working for them as a pilot until payback of TR is complete, that way they are paid multi crew/jet hours and airline gets a pilot working for tehm for free (only for low hours pilots who just got their CPL/IR)

[Mungo Man]

Pilot's lack the necessary support Pilot's lack the necessary support

Pilot's what exactly?
Nice grammar mate. Makes a really good impression...:yuk:

[Hookerbot 5000]

I'm not signing it simply because i don't want more competition :eek:;)

[Superpilot]

Why the :mad: would you want every Tom, Dick and Harriet leaving college/Uni to be able to afford and start flying training??? I'm glad it's not affordable! Once you make it affordable, it is destined to become common, and once that happens, having an ATPL to your name will be common. Competition will increase so much, Airlines wont have any problems hiring people to fly their planes for peanuts (Look at Ryanair already!).

My words of wisdom: If you can't afford flying training, don't do it until you can! Put sanity before passion.

[PIGDOG]

Hmmm I've been thinking about this (...and I would like your opinion...)

I think the only reasonable way to help newbies, and keep the system going is to ban paying for type rating. And make all companies employing pilots obliged to hire people from right across the experience spectrum.

I mean, what other industry forces people to pay to train on a company's own equiptment.

Can you imagine ATCO's being made to pay to train on a new radar/computer interface? Or a Fireman (or woman) being made to pay to train on a new fire-engine? Or the hospital gets in a new piece of high tech equiptment. Will the doctors (junior or not) be expected to pay to learn to use it? No way Jose!!!

Training your employees is part of being an employer!!!!!

As for airlines which then only employ the type rated pilots; make sure that they have to employ a spread of experience. For every type-rated, 3000 hr FO, and every TRI they employ, they have to employ a non type-rated fATPLer.

Feedback welcome...

[Superpilot]

Training your employees is part of being an employer!!!!!


Hospitals don't exist to make a profit
ATC doesn't exist to make a profit
Airlines however, wait for it.............exist to make a profit!

Airlines charge for Type Ratings and all the rest of it, for the simple reason that they can!

London Underground and the Railway company's don't charge their drivers for training on each type of train because they're struggling to find people to train....People who have decided to become Airline pilots! :=

[PIGDOG]

Well, NHS hospitals in this country don't exist to make a profit. But there are many private ones about. Have you even been to the states? I'm not saying anything about their medical system, just that they are there to make a profit and wouldn't dream of charging their own staff to pay for training on their own specific tools.

When you're on the payroll you shouldn't have to pay to learn how to use their equipment.

Have you ever tried looking for a job with London Underground? They don't advertise jobs externally. You have to be working with them in another capacity before they'll consider you for a driving job!!! It doesn't sound like they find it hard to find drivers!!

So I take it you agree with paying for a type rating, Superpilot? Do you think it's a good barrier to keeping the supply down? (geniune question; I'm not being sarcastic)

What do you think of the idea of getting a petition to force airlines to take responsibility for their choice of aircraft by taking the burden for the training cost involved?

[Luke SkyToddler]

a petition to force airlines to take responsibility for their choice of aircraft by taking the burden for the training cost involved

Was thinking about this in the cruise back from Palma last night ... I don't reckon petitions are any bloody use at all to be honest (remember a couple of weeks ago the govt just announced they were going ahead with road user charges despite several MILLION signatures on the petition against it).

However there IS an obvious way to get the govt to stop the buy-a-type-rating industry dead in its tracks and it's through the security legislation. What we need is to persuade the people in charge, to pass a bill which says that it is forbidden to sell training to private individuals on aircraft above a certain size without a bona fide offer of a job from an established airline. More or less what the USA does now post 9/11 anyway. Bingo you've reduced the terror risk AND made it impossible for people to buy speculative type ratings :ok:

[shaun ryder]

Was thinking about this one on the way back from the kebab shop last night :yuk:

What difference would that make LST? So you get a bona fide job offer from a company without even finishing a type rating. Dont think so.

Maybe you wannabees should stop and think about how you can work your way up to the top, rather than getting your bare minimums and waiting for the Airbus door to open loaded with a life debt.

Its a fact of todays society that there are more people in debt than ever before, mainly down to people trying to live above their means. Petitioning the Govt as said will do 5hag all, they are too busy subsidising immigrants / hugging hoodies etc.

Sorry to be harsh, but some of you guys should open your eyes and realise that maybe a flying career is not for you. Just because you have always wanted to do it is no excuse, I always wanted to be a millionaire playboy living in Monaco but hey!

[Luke SkyToddler]

So you get a bona fide job offer from a company without even finishing a type rating. Dont think so

Well yeah Shaun that's the way it always was until 5 or so years ago when these guys started buying type ratings. Go back to the mid 90's and name me a single company that required a type rating or MCC as a prerequisite for interview. The way to the top was through flight instructing and air charter until your turboprop number came up. Easyjet only came up with the TRSS thing back in '03 ('02?), you were never expected to self fund before that. Even Ryanair used to bond people! Exactly the same thing happened 10 years ago with the MCC course and I remember the exact same argument raging on pprune back then. Fat lot of good that did eh.

I agree 99% that petitions to the govt will achieve S.F.A. in any case, but I do worry that half baked amateur attempts from kids, like the one this guy here has started, could potentially do more harm than good if someone important in government actually ever reads the things.

I think we actually agree with each other in that the problem started a few years ago when large numbers of people first started seriously trying to bypass the old weeding-out mechanisms of actually working your way to the top, by buying all these bloody ratings and hours. Big flying schools and airlines realized there was a huge revenue stream waiting to be tapped and it's all been downhill ever since.

That's why I still engage in debate here on the wannabe's forum, and why I have come to the reluctant conclusion that we - the professional pilots already working in the industry - have to be the ones to fight the fight against what's happening in the wannabe industry, because there just appears to be no limit to the depth some people will prostitute themselves to get the first step on the ladder and no limit to the amount of charlatan training organisations who will sell them these things at the expense of MY terms and conditions. I think we DO need to think outside the box and come up with a legal solution or challenge perhaps, because appealing to wannabes themselves - or airlines - or the government - to stop this madness, is going to achieve precisely nothing. So if you've got any better ideas, lets hear them!

And what's with that kebab shop thing, is there some implied insult there that I am failing to get? I was thinking about it in the cruise, woop de doo, is there something wrong with that?

[shaun ryder]

In a rush sorry, but you get me wrong. Dont forget Luke, that you are on a probationary period with a company whether it be today or the mid 90s mate! This can be up to 6 months believe it or not! So even after you finish your rating regardless who paid for it that aint no firm job offer.

You can think about that on your way back to Palma :)

[boogie-nicey]

I agree this petition is short sighted stupidity at best. Putting the money together for flight training appears to be somewhat proportional to the effort expended once that training is underway. If it were subsidised then it would be open to abuse left, right and centre. Look at the number of so called further education college or even university places that filled by young people who rarely if ever attend classes but enroll simply because their mates did and gives them somewhere to meet up during the day. If they had to pay the full amount to enroll onto the course then I doubt many would. It's only because these courses are relatively cheap, subsidised or in some cases paid for from the public purse that these students sign up.

You'd get a lot of people claiming that the system is prejudiced and they didn't receive funding/subsidy when someone else did. The solution would be to have a level playing field and provide money for anyone. But then we're at square one again, far too many people. What's the solution let me see, ah yes , testing to fund all the most capable and suitable aka RAF sytle. Can you see what's happening here .... the public purse used to fund flight training .... full circle. You turn up, get tested and if successful get a place on an airline training scheme. Just like it used to be and guess what, everyone who fails (the vast majority) will be complaining that they should have the opportunity to fund their own private training if they so wish.... round and round we go. Now we look at the attracive issue of VAT exemption then I'm very happy about that or at least a 'part and part' system of some kind, where the VAT could perhaps be postponed or only paid once in full airline/air carrier employment. If not then you didn't pay VAT in the first place. This might even hurt Ryanair as many students contemplating the imminent repayment of the VAT portion of the course fees would think twice about throwing themselves at the likes of Ryanair.

A further danger of this petition is how it can be manipulated by the government and used against you if they wish. They can fund all manner of student dropouts, ethnic minorities, kids previously in trouble with the law, etc to attend these courses at the expense of your place on a course. It has happened in schools, colleges and universities, where very bright and in some cases gifted students out quite simply left out in the cold. Don't attract the attention of the government they help but unfortunately only themselves.

[PIGDOG]

Mr. Ryder said:
Its a fact of todays society that there are more people in debt than ever before, mainly down to people trying to live above their means. Petitioning the Govt as said will do 5hag all, they are too busy subsidising immigrants / hugging hoodies etc.
Sorry to be harsh, but some of you guys should open your eyes and realise that maybe a flying career is not for you. Just because you have always wanted to do it is no excuse, I always wanted to be a millionaire playboy living in Monaco but hey!

Not really sure what your point here was. Did you mean that if you haven't got the cash you shouldn't even try? Keep it among the monied few, eh?

Personally I hate debt. I hate owing and I hate being owed. But at times it can serve a necessary purpose. Right now I don't owe a penny. I'm working as hard as I can, in a physically demanding job, just so that I can save enough to complete my training modularly. My plan is to have a fATPL and still not owe a penny.

Now, Shaun Ryder, I am willing to work [my] way up to the top (presumably from the bottom). However, chances are I'll still be required to fund a type rating. So what do I do?

What does a fledgling pilot, who is totally against paying for a type rating, do? Everyone else seems to be paying for one, so, regardless of whether I'm the best damn pilot out there or not, if I'm not willing to pay for a TR it's 'see-ya-later...'

[Superpilot]

So I take it you agree with paying for a type rating, Superpilot? Do you think it's a good barrier to keeping the supply down? (genuine question; I'm not being sarcastic)

To answer your question. I was only 3-6 months ago vehemently opposed to and sickened by the idea. However, considering the options are:

1.) Flight Instructor job, risking life and limb, earning a pittance that wouldn’t even cover 2/3rds my monthly outgoings.

2.) Waiting for 2-4 years for a very lucky chance with a turboprop operator based on some remote Island far away from the place I call home.

3.) Giving up.

...Paying for my type rating in order to kick-start my career, providing that there's a reasonably good chance of a job offer at the end and that the employer is respectable and offers a respectable starting salary, suddenly sounds like a very good decision (both financially and for my life situation)

Paying for a type rating, however much I or anyone dislikes them, is something that is now here to stay forever. Denying that reality would be foolish. With regards to it "being a barrier to keep supply down". I don't believe that's entirely true because if people are silly and desperate enough to pay for flying training using a loan greater than £20k they're probably silly enough to take out another loan for the TR. The only way in which it is a barrier is because there are still a lot of people unwilling to pay for a TR as a matter of principle. My honest opinion is there are far more people willing to pay than those who are not and the club is growing by the day (PPruNe itself is witness to this). Before the day comes when everyone's willing to pay....I think I'll do it nice and early :O

[bri1980]

Someone above said that airlines will never pay for training because they are out there to make profit.

Train operating companies are out there to make profit as well-agreed?

Well, the training costs about £60k to be a train driver (about the same as flying), and guess what, ALL train companies pay for ALL of their driver training. In fact there is no way to do it privately-it's not allowed!

Rumour has it that there are about 300 applicants to every train driving vacancy-ok thats not as many as for airline jobs but its quite a few.

Is it really wise in the airline industry that candidates should have to pay for their own training? Many wannabes end up in debt. Some a lot of debt. That can cause stress and worry which could (and I stress could for I have no evidence) have a less than positive effect on flight safety.

If train companies can shell out £60k to train their drivers, I'm sure airlines can afford to train their pilots! Even if it were just preventing TRs from been done privately that would be start.

B

[potkettleblack]

If the multi pilot licence ever gets off the ground then don't you worry airlines will be paying for all that training. Only problem for the vast majority of wannabes is that they won't get a look in. It will be back to the cadet type schemes, pyscho this and verbal that and can you keep a cross hair in a square box whilst reciting Pythagoras theorem. That is the harsh reality.

Thing is the industry at the moment is about as good as it ever has been for the wannabe, in particular the modular student. Don't expect it to continue.

[shaun ryder]

In answer to the poster who quoted me last. I suspect you are probably from a younger generation than I? Maybe you have been pandered to, wrapped in cotton wool, a politically corrrect upbringing where you are fed bull5hit by the media etc? I suppose that you are probably a fan of the x factor, maybe even big brother? Dont you think it would be great if they had a programme where young wannabees entered to get the job of a life time? Hell they could call it the atpl factor!! I am merely making a point here PIGDOG.

Are you willing to serve some form of apprenticeship? With the utmost respect to my fellow pilots be they instructors or air taxi pilots slogging their balls off, little monkeys like you who want to pay for their God given right to fly a jet stink!!! Seems the world is full of these 'I want it and I want it now' cretins.

All I am saying is put the work in and you will reap what you sow. Stamping your feet and crying about it wont help.

[PIGDOG]

Shaun Ryder,

I'm not going to get into a slanging match with you. I'm going to try to keep this factual and respectful.

I may be younger than you, but I doubt I am a whole generation behind. If you think my upbringing was all cotton wool and cream - you have no idea. You really don't. A farm in rural Ireland where I had to work a number of hours of bloody hard work, before I went to school, and just as many after. That's before I did any homework and study.

I have been given no money by anyone, except what I have worked for. It has take me a couple of years to get this far and I suspect a couple more to get where I want to go. So I guess your assumption of me being a 'want it and want it NOW' young monkey is way off the mark.

I hate all these reality shows, big brother, exfactor etc. They turn my stomach.

In fact, you're completely off the mark with your assesment of me!!!!
Thanks for telling me I stink. Glad you think this is how someone of your 'generation' should behave. I if you had read my post before you would see that I was asking you what to do. I don't want to pay for a type rating. I want to work my way up. However, starting at the bottom still requires you pay 12k for a type rating nowadays.

Who says I'm stamping my feet and crying about it? I'm asking people here what to do about it.

[Superpilot]

I admire your response PIGDOG. Well done. Just goes to show when this paying for TR issue comes up most people are just not capable of thinking using their brains. The idea of paying for a TR isn't a million miles away from being bonded.

[kerofai]

Petition to: award official student status to british trainee professional pilots... | Number10.gov.uk (http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/Student-Pilots/)