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Laichtown
4th Jun 2007, 16:21
I started my PPL a year ago, and thought I'd be finised by now, but bad weather, several changes in instrustors and a change of flying school have also slowed the process down. Now have done 20 hours with no solo yet.

Was gutted when the flying school put the price upto £182.00/ hr in a 172:ooh:. Personally I think that's a bit steep requiring at least another £4500.00 to finish!!!

When I was looking at schools a year ago I had a trial lesson in a Microlight and really enjoyed it, though thought I should do the JAR PPL as it was a higher qualification.

Now thinking of going back to the microlight. With 20 hours under my belt in a 172 would it take many more to get the microlight lisence?

Cheers,

Laichtown

GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU
4th Jun 2007, 19:15
Have a look at LASORS C 6; http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?catid=33&pagetype=65&appid=11&mode=detail&id=1591 and the NPPL Site at http://www.nppl.uk.com/

If you had a recent licence, life would be easier. I know that the QFI examiner who stamps my microlight ticket would expect completion of the complete microlight syllabus. You will understand why when/if you start. Also, if bad WX messed you around in a C172, you aint seen nothing yet!

Good luck.

tangovictor
4th Jun 2007, 22:35
http://www.nppl.uk.com/
as you can see, the hours required are less, than the ppl
I see that your a lot younger than I, however, if you do not intend making a living from flying or flying IMC
the nppl is a much better option, I choose the nppl m, the 3 axis microlights
are every bit as good as most spam cans, big advantages being
1/2 the cost to train in
1/2 the cost to hire
1/2 or more even to buy one
1/4 the cost to maintain
you might want to take a look at the ready to fly 3 axis microlights available in the UK, amazing machines,

maxdrypower
4th Jun 2007, 22:56
Getting out of a 172 might help also , you will find a 150 , 152 or even a PA38 much cheaper than that , more like 100 per hour depending where you go , I doubt I would have ever contemplated paying 182 per hour for training and I learnt at a large airport . All depends what ya want from it , if its purely receational then stick with NPPL or even PPL(M) Microlights are great fun and three axis ones are great fun and you may even end up owning one , but seriously why do you need to learn in a large four seater thats just chucking money away IMHO get your ppl in something small then do a check ride or two in somehting larger , I went for PA38 - PA28 - Cessna 172R - Cessna 172SP Garmin 1000 and Im sure youll find most peopel here trained in a small 2 seater, at the end of the day all things being well for 4500 quid you should have a PPL in your hand or be pretty damn close to it
Good luck

flexy
5th Jun 2007, 13:24
nasty nasty tin cans - unrefined tractor engines, half the fuel used for cooling and not even burnt coupled with lousy performance. Go for the NPPL and get on a C42 or CT2K 120knots on 10 LITRES of Mogas an hour so you can even collect the clubcard points from the garage. I fly both and only fly nasty tin cans to remain current.....

Fly Stimulator
5th Jun 2007, 15:15
Laichtown,

As you'll probably have read from the links above by now, you need a minimum of 25 hours for the NPPL Microlight rating.

You may be able to get credit for the SEP training you have already done. The NPPL document Allowances Against Training For The Grant Of A NPPL (http://www.nppl.uk.com/documents/NPPLXCREV064.pdf) says:

Credit may be given for training on SEP and/or SLMG aircraft which has not been fully completed; applicants seeking credit for such training should contact the BMAA for advice. The requirements will be determined by the applicant’s current experience and will be assessed individually. The applicant will be required to complete the minimum instructional training hours for the NPPL (Microlight), to pass the Microlight theoretical examinations and to pass the NPPL (Microlight) GST.

You should give the BMAA (http://www.bmaa.org/) a call - they'll be able to answer any queries over the phone.


Another licence option requiring (theoretically) fewer hours is the NPPL with SSEA rating; in other words the light aircraft rather than microlight version on the NPPL. I say theoretically fewer hours since, although the minimum requirement is less than the JAR PPL, many people need more than the minimum time in any case. If it so happens that it takes you 60 hours to learn to fly then going for a different flavour of licence won't make much difference to that. Changing to a microlight probably would, since they are simpler and the syllabus reflects that with no radio navigation appreciation, no 180 degree turns to escape from IMC and so on.


flexy - to add some pros to your list of tin can cons I'd add items such as the ability to take more than one passenger, the ability to fly in conditions and at times when microlights can't and very un-lousy performance if you choose the right aircraft! As for 120knots on 10 litres per hour in a CT, it's a nice idea, but only possible in a rather steep dive. I have a few hundred hours on CTs, own one and have flown several others. They will all do 120 knots easily enough, but the fuel flow is around 20 litres per hour at that speed, depending on the type of prop and how it is set up.

flexy
5th Jun 2007, 15:44
FS - you are of course correct on the fuel flow and I stand corrected - I confused the flow with other 912 aircraft. I am not lucky enough to have 3 friends so that bit doesnt bother me - as for the weather well if you mean IMC this chap is looking for a PPL so the limits would be fairly similar at this stage- I am well used to getting blown about in the jolly old flexwing and 3 axis and have flown through most conditions. I much prefer all the spare performance available on a 912 powered microlight to get you out of trouble should you need than what is often a distinct lack from a tin can....Seriously I leant in Group A many moons ago and thought they were the mutts nuts - but for sheer enjoyment the 912 micros have it!

Fly Stimulator
5th Jun 2007, 16:01
...for sheer enjoyment the 912 micros have it!

I wouldn't quibble with that - they provide some pretty good flying and can handle serious VFR touring as well as most aircraft: I'm off to tour Sweden and Norway in mine this month as it happens.

It's just I've never managed to summon up the religious fervour of the Judean People's Front vs People's Front of Judea type that seems to divide the various branches of the tiny world of recreational flying.

Slopey
5th Jun 2007, 17:19
Was gutted when the flying school put the price upto £182.00/ hr in a 172. Personally I think that's a bit steep requiring at least another £4500.00 to finish!!!
If you can spare a couple of weeks - why not just pop over to Florida and complete the course over there? Ab-initio to PPL is around £4,500! You'll be able to take the hours over and complete in the much more reliable weather environment over there - then come back to extortionate rental prices :) Just give the various JAA schools a call and ask them how much for the completion hours you think you'll need.

7 Engine Approach
6th Jun 2007, 08:51
Nothing better than waking up on a nice calm morning to complete a couple of circuits and only landing once becuase the microlight pilots cut in on you.

flexy
6th Jun 2007, 09:21
well as I said - if you had a bit more performance out of that tin can, you could get round the circuit a bit quicker...

rustle
6th Jun 2007, 10:35
When I was looking at schools a year ago I had a trial lesson in a Microlight and really enjoyed it, though thought I should do the JAR PPL as it was a higher qualification.

Now thinking of going back to the microlight. With 20 hours under my belt in a 172 would it take many more to get the microlight lisence?

Cheers,

Laichtown

Surely the driving factor in deciding which licence you want is what you want to do with it after you have it.

If you're content with VFR only (and no night flying) then do a licence that allows you that: It's cheaper.

If you think you might want to add ratings (IMC/IR/Multi/Night) do a licence that allows you to do that: It's more flexible.

If you can't afford to hire/buy/lease anything other than a microlight on completion of your training then do a licence that allows you to do that: It's sensible.

If you're not sure what you want to do, but you want to do something then (IMO) flexibility is more important than price [within reason].

If there are 3 pilots posting advice you'll get 4 opinions: You have to decide what you're doing it for ;)

tangovictor
6th Jun 2007, 16:38
what a rediculous generalisation :ugh:

stickandrudderman
6th Jun 2007, 22:37
What is?:confused:

tangovictor
6th Jun 2007, 22:58
7 engine approaches comment

Rans Flyer
7th Jun 2007, 09:43
Quote:
" tangovictor: the nppl is a much better option, I choose the nppl m, the 3 axis microlights
are every bit as good as most spam cans, big advantages being
1/2 the cost to train in
1/2 the cost to hire
1/2 or more even to buy one
1/4 the cost to maintain "

Plus the landing fees are cheaper and they sip unleaded instead of guzzling £££Avgas.

Rans,
www.FlightForLife.co.uk

tonyhalsall
7th Jun 2007, 11:42
1/2 the cost to train in
1/2 the cost to hire
1/2 or more even to buy one
1/4 the cost to maintain "
Plus the landing fees are cheaper and they sip unleaded instead of guzzling £££Avgas.
Are you sure?.........................
Training and hire costs are not much different at all and in fact you can only fly solo in a hired microlight. A typical C150 will set you back around £15,000 and a comparable Ikarus/Eurostar will cost £30 - £35,000.
On the other hand I would say that you understate the maintenance savings I would go as far as to say that Permit maintenance is likely to be 1/20 of the the cost of maintaining a CofA aircraft - as for unleaded being cheaper than Avgas - oh yes - and by quite a bit.
Sorry to be pedantic - I am actually on your side !!

tangovictor
7th Jun 2007, 11:54
a typical C150 will set you back around £15,000 and a comparable Ikarus/Eurostar will cost £30 - £35,000.
Tony, another difference would be, for £15k the C150 would be older than my granny, a £3 - £3.5k Eurostar would only be 1 or 2 years old, with 100 hours

Merritt
7th Jun 2007, 12:07
I thought about the microlight option when I started to learn but decided against it for two reasons:

1) I wanted to add some additional ratings such as night, twin engine etc further down the line

2) most importantly for me, you can only just carry two sensible size adults in a C42 or eurostar (weight wise). I wanted the option to be able to put some luggage in and go away for a weekend.

Yes, the performance of the new type microlights is very good but if you want to add additional ratings or carry more weight you're a little stuck.

Steve

snapper41
7th Jun 2007, 15:49
Horses for courses, really...

I've recently bought into a syndicate on a C42 (5 shares), and it cost me less than £7K. £20 p/h dry, and as she only burns 10 litres an hour, I get an hour's flying for under £30. 80kts cruise, 60 litre tank...no need for GA IMHO! Oh, and there is luggage space in the fuselage.

Mariner9
7th Jun 2007, 16:23
I get an hour's flying for under £30. 80kts cruise, 60 litre tank...no need for GA IMHO!

Maybe so for Spamcans, but I get an hours flying for ~£25/hour, 130kts cruise, 17 litres/hour, 80 litre tank, 30Kg baggage capacity at full fuel with 2 adults in my "GA" Pioneer 300. Similar performance can be had from many other GA types too, eg MCR01 (Rod1 would complain if I called it a Banbi :E).

Therefore, IMHO the performance/economy of modern microlights, whilst excellent, is not a reason in itself to decide against a full JAR PPL, as comparable/better performance can be had with modern GA types.

For the small(ish) difference in training costs, I would go for the JAR PPL unless you are absolutely sure you will never want to progress on to night/IMC/Multi/whatever. Having got the licence, you can then choose from a wider range of aircraft, and fairly easily fly microlights if you so wish.

tangovictor
7th Jun 2007, 17:16
For the small(ish) difference in training costs, I would go for the JAR PPL unless you are absolutely sure you will never want to progress on to night/IMC/Multi/whatever. Having got the licence, you can then choose from a wider range of aircraft, and fairly easily fly microlights if you so wish.
it cost double per hour to train in a spam can rather than a "Eurostar" or other 3 axis microlight

Rans Flyer
7th Jun 2007, 19:11
"For the small(ish) difference in training costs, I would go for the JAR PPL"

NPPL(M) 25Hours @ £85.00 = £2125
PPL 45Hours @ £182.00 = £8190

The extra £6,000 that the PPL cost, could buy you a microlight :D

rustle
7th Jun 2007, 19:29
"For the small(ish) difference in training costs, I would go for the JAR PPL"

NPPL(M) 25Hours @ £85.00 = £2125
PPL 45Hours @ £182.00 = £8190

The extra £6,000 that the PPL cost, could buy you a microlight :D
Comparing the cheapest apples to the most expensive bananas doesn't really help anyone.

£182/hr is far too much to pay for PPL lessons. It isn't a "standard charge", it is way above the average.

Blackbushe Aviation: PA38/C152 Dual = £135 incl VAT

Cabair (same location) is about £140 incl VAT

Both have annual membership fees, both charge for (at least one) landing(s), both are less than £182/hr

As for the hours taken comparison (therefore hours * cost simple calculation) - that, too, is a red herring if he/she wants to add any ratings now, soon or later.

Rans Flyer
7th Jun 2007, 19:35
I was comparing the situation that Laichtown is in.
BTW. £85 is for training in a new C42 with no additional membership fees.

rustle
7th Jun 2007, 21:25
I was comparing the situation that Laichtown is in.
BTW. £85 is for training in a new C42 with no additional membership fees.

£85/hr is a good price - no argument from me.

I think we're agreed that £182/hr isn't, though ;)

tangovictor
7th Jun 2007, 21:46
I often wonder, how many pppl pilots, want to continue to IMC or CPL
I would imagine a big % are quite happy as I am, flying VMC

Laichtown
8th Jun 2007, 21:11
Well folks,

I'm off to Newtonards on Sunday to have a look round and see what they have to offer. £95.00/hr in their C152.

Just a bit of a drive for me

xrayalpha
8th Jun 2007, 22:18
Rans Flyer wrote:

NPPL(M) 25Hours @ £85.00 = £2125
PPL 45Hours @ £182.00 = £8190

The extra £6,000 that the PPL cost, could buy you a microlight :D

I beg to disagree.

The C42 Ikarus microlight - which my microlight school uses for training - is exactly the same airframe as the light aircraft kit built version. Just different paperwork and MAUW.

So, by telling the owner of a microlight C42 that they can get a licence in 25 hours, but telling the owner of a light aircraft one it will be 45 hours is morally wrong.

It will take 45 hours, at least, for an ab initio pilot to learn either to an adequate standard.

It might have been different learning to fly a Skycraft Scout or Weedhopper - the bee's knees where the regs first came in. (the weedhopper only had two axis of control and no flaps, for instance - makes Ex 4 a lot quicker to teach!)

Very best wishes,

Colin

ps. hope I haven't done myself out of potential students, but what we also try to offer at Strathaven is a different atmosphere to flying and training than the "group A" schools.

Genghis the Engineer
9th Jun 2007, 10:41
Having a few hours in Weedhoppers, I'd venture that it has enough handling ideosynchrasies that learning to fly on one would be exciting enough that the lack of ailerons wouldn't significantly make life easier!

Anyhow, let's try and look at this impartially (I hope that I can do this, since I fly 3-axis microlights, flexwings and "group A" all fairly regularly).
Costs of learning vary around the country, and depending upon what you want to fly. Similarly, the costs of buying an aeroplane or share vary. So, let's try and be impartial here, I'm going to set myself a few basic rules:

(1) Compare in about the same place
(2) (Almost) nobody learns in minimum hours - let's assume 20% over the minimum - so that's 54hrs for a JAR-PPL(SEP), 38.4hrs for an NPPL(SEP) or 30 hrs for an NPPL(M).
(3) Stick to reasonably basic modernish 2-seaters, you can always spend a lot more, whether in microlight or group A.
(4) Cost of charts, landing fees, etc. is likely to be similar(ish) so we'll ignore them.
(5) PPL (whichever flavour) completed within 1 year's club membership.
(6) No taildraggers (I like taildraggers, but I'm sticking with "easy" for the new pilot). Note that both 3-axis microlights and group A offer cheaper aeroplanes with the tailwheel at the correct end!
(7) Show purchased aeroplanes with similar running costs.
I'm going to pick Sywell for an example, because there are good microlight and group A schools there, it's roughly central in England, I happen to like the place, and both schools prices are shown on their websites. So, let's start with learning to fly


Learning on a flexwing
Fixed fee at Flylight, 25 hrs, groundschool, etc. etc. : £2,485
Extra 5 hours: £455
Total = £2,940 (This was in a Pegasus Quantum)


Learning on 3-axis
Fixed fee at Flylight, 25 hrs, groundschool, etc. etc. : £2,665
Extra 5 hours: £490
Total = £3,155 (This was in Cosmik Eurostar)


Learning on a light aeroplane - to NPPL(SEP)
Initial 15 hour package including club membership = £1,875
Extra 23.4hrs = £2,925
Skills test = £95
7 Exams = £175
Total = £4,970 (This was in an Aero AT3)


Learning on a light aeroplane - to JAR-PPL(SEP)
Initial 15 hour package including club membership = £1,875
Extra 39hrs = £4,875
Skills test = £95
7 Exams = £175
Total = £7,020 (This was in an Aero AT3)


Now, let's look at buying ourselves a cheap but sensible 2-seat aeroplane. I'll use as my source www.afors.co.uk (I'm exercising some judgment here) and pick the cheapest sensible looking first aeroplane that I can find.


For a flexwing, I'll pick this (http://www.cfors.co.uk/afors/index.php?page=view&adid=6224&si=466a7dbdb69a1&PHPSESSID=a41074f39e9404d168081c21d115772a&PHPSESSID=a41074f39e9404d168081c21d115772a) Pegasus XL-Q, at £2,750

For a 3-axis microlight, I'll pick this (http://www.cfors.co.uk/afors/index.php?page=view&adid=6724&si=466a7eb642455&PHPSESSID=a41074f39e9404d168081c21d115772a&PHPSESSID=a41074f39e9404d168081c21d115772a) Cyclone AX3, at £4,500

For a "group A" aeroplane (inevitably PFA if we're going for cost), this (http://www.cfors.co.uk/afors/index.php?page=view&adid=6729&si=466a805396b2d&PHPSESSID=a41074f39e9404d168081c21d115772a&PHPSESSID=a41074f39e9404d168081c21d115772a) Rans S6 at £17,750.


So, comparing the costs of realistically getting a PPL, and then buying outright your first, cheap-to-run, 2-seat aeroplane, I get the following:


NPPL(M), flexwings: £2,940 + £2,750 = £5,690 (cheapest)
NPPL(M), 3-axis: £3,155 + £4,500 = £7,655 (+£1,965 / 34%)
NPPL(SEP): £4,970 + £17,750 = £22,720 (+£17,030 / 299%)
JAR-PPL(SEP): £7,020 + £17,750 = £24,770 (+£19,080 / 335%)


Or of just learning to fly, ignoring purchase costs


NPPL(M), flexwings: £2,940 (cheapest)
NPPL(M), 3-axis: £3,155 (+£215 / 7%)
NPPL(SEP): £4,970 (+£2,030 / 69%)
JAR-PPL(SEP): £7,020 (+£4,080 / 138%)

G


(A few disclaimers...
i. This is only one airfield, and one set of adverts
ii. I know several of the people selling flying/aeroplanes above. This is co-incidental and I hope hasn't affected my arguments.
iii. Buy a share, it's much cheaper than buying outright, whatever you're flying
iv. Don't forget to work out the cost of flying the aeroplane afterwards! There are loads of threads about this on PPrune, so I'm not going to start another one.) If you want a really rough rule of thumb, take the cost of fuel, add 150% and you'll be about right for most powered flying machines.
v. If you're really cash-strapped, don't forget gliders.
vi. Whatever you fly, you'll still need charts, landing fees, etc.
vii. Never forget that you can usually trade hours and experience on any one aircraft towards qualifications to fly another.

rustle
9th Jun 2007, 13:46
An excellent analysis GtE. :D

The only thing I would like to see added :rolleyes: is a cost from each of your baselines for the addition of any other rating.

I don't know what the "differences training cost/hours" from your NPPL(M), flexwings: £2,940 (cheapest) to JAA PPL (SEP) is in minimum hours or I'd work it out myself.

Just curious if there is a point where the price-gap closes with the addition of a single extra rating or not. For instance if NPPL(M), flexwings: £2,940 (cheapest) hours only count at 10% you would spend more altogether for your first additional rating going that route.

Genghis the Engineer
9th Jun 2007, 13:55
Well, sticking a wet finger in the air, and using the same numbers, I'd say:

NPPL(M) - between 3-axis and flexwing, about 12 hours at £95/hr = £1140

NPPL(M)-NPPL(SEP), about 15 hours at £125/hr=£1875 + £95 skills test = £1970

NPPL(SEP)-JAR-FCL PPL(SEP), about the same again.


So, if you want to go for a complete set, in the order NPPL(M), flexwings --> NPPL(M) 3-axis, NPPL(SEP), JAR-FCL PPL(SEP), you'd be looking at a total bill of about £8k, (plus, which I forgot to put in before, licence issue costs to the CAA). Not a bad way of going about it!

G

Rod1
9th Jun 2007, 15:34
Nice set of figures but a bit “cart before horse”. Buy the Rans, and learn to fly on it (perfectly legal). There are many instructors who will train you on your own machine (check who is available and take one with you before you buy). This will bring the cost down a lot. When I wanted to get checked out on my MCR, I had 5 instructors offering to do it foc, and £10 an hour cash will work in my area.

When you have learned on the aircraft, if you are short of funds, sell 4 shares in her.

Rod1

Fly Stimulator
9th Jun 2007, 16:03
So, if you want to go for a complete set, in the order NPPL(M), flexwings --> NPPL(M) 3-axis, NPPL(SEP), JAR-FCL PPL(SEP), you'd be looking at a total bill of about £8k, (plus, which I forgot to put in before, licence issue costs to the CAA). Not a bad way of going about it!

Essentially the route I took, apart from starting on 3-axis. I learned on Shadows, bought a share in a Jabiru (a combination that will no doubt identify the training outfit for GtE!) and subsequently found converting to 152s for the then-new NPPL SSEA to be pretty straightforward. A small-ish extra cost of that route is the need to sit what are a rather similar set of exams once for microlights and then again for the NPPL SSEA.

Being confined to the UK while flying Group A then motivated me to convert to the JAR PPL, coupled with the desire to join a friend's N-reg group which meant getting something to base an FAA licence on - all things that fit under the 'flexibility' heading in rustle's excellent summary earlier in this thread.

If you had a flexwing microlight licence and then wanted to add an extra rating in the sense of night, IMC, twin, IR etc., then clearly you'd have a large extra cost to bear since you'd need the JAR PPL as a minimum. If you wanted to add even the simplest extra 'rating', the Night Qualification, there would be nothing to gain by doing the NPPL SSEA along the way since it doesn't support the qualification you're after and still costs you money for examiner's test and CAA licence issue fees. You would need to plunge straight into the JAR PPL.

In the very best case you'd get 10 hours credit for your microlight experience (10% of your total, limited to a maximum of 10 hours) and you'd be well-placed to pass in the minimum time since you should already be comfortable with navigation, radio and so on. Depending on the time of year, you might be able to gain the night qualification during the course too, so let's say a best case of 35 extra hours (plus Class II medical costs) for a 100 hr+ flexwing pilot to get a night qualification and the appropriate licence to attach it to.

Of course, on the aircraft ownership side, most of the extra ratings will mean that you can't use a PFA aircraft to exercise them, so you'll have to raid the bank account again for a CofA, FAA or similar machine.


If I'd known when I started that I'd want to end up flying internationally in a Group A aircraft it would have been more cost-effective to have gone straight for the JAR licence, but for me it was a case of wanting to dip my toe in the water without too much outlay (it cost me about £2,500 all in in 2001 for the old-style microlight licence) and then paying extra to add extra flexibility from there.

tangovictor
9th Jun 2007, 22:24
well done Genghis, excellent work,

wulf190a
18th Jun 2007, 21:34
I have been sitting here reading this thread (and others) with a little smile on my face, heard it all before.
The 25 hours is the MINIMUM hours needed, and what percentage of students with the minimum are ready for their GST? very few considering time, weather, wives, girlfriend, kids,work etc.
Most schools sell the dream of 25 hours, wake up and smell the coffee, it takes as long as your circumstances and ability.
Best of luck, keep at it, and gentle breezes.

tangovictor
18th Jun 2007, 21:46
I have been sitting here reading this thread (and others) with a little smile on my face, heard it all before.
The 25 hours is the MINIMUM hours needed, and what percentage of students with the minimum are ready for their GST? very few considering time, weather, wives, girlfriend, kids,work etc.
Most schools sell the dream of 25 hours, wake up and smell the coffee, it takes as long as your circumstances and ability.
Best of luck, keep at it, and gentle breezes.

Wulf, I very much doubt any nppl school would sell themselves saying you can pass a GST in min hours, just as if any ppl school would.

Genghis the Engineer
19th Jun 2007, 08:44
I have been sitting here reading this thread (and others) with a little smile on my face, heard it all before.
The 25 hours is the MINIMUM hours needed, and what percentage of students with the minimum are ready for their GST? very few considering time, weather, wives, girlfriend, kids,work etc.


(Almost) nobody learns in minimum hours - let's assume 20% over the minimum - so that's 54hrs for a JAR-PPL(SEP), 38.4hrs for an NPPL(SEP) or 30 hrs for an NPPL(M).


It's okay, I've been ignored before. Quite used to it in fact.

G

Rod1
19th Jun 2007, 11:10
I do no subscribe to the “cannot be done in min hours” argument. I accept it cannot be done in min hours at 1 hour a week. If the min is 45 hours it is hard for an ordinary working person to do an intensive course without risking divorce. 25 hours is however achievable in 9 days (five days holiday and two weekends). If this approach is used it would be possible to get down to min hours.

I did both the night and the IMCR in min hours using a similar idea.

Rod1

bar shaker
19th Jun 2007, 12:29
I quite agree Rod.

I did my GFT in min dual plus 2 hours of the min solo. I then had to wrack up the rest of the solo hours and QXCs before I could send my license application off.

I did it all in 3 months, through the winter.

If you are doing 1 hour a month, 30-40 hours would be about right. If you are doing 2-3 hours a week, it is all so fresh in your mind that you move along very quickly.

The comments about the lack of bolt on rating to NPPL SSEA are correct, but that may well change now that EASA are rolling out a pan EU version of it. It should be live in 2009 and will be accepted across all EU states. One of the main reasons for getting a JAR (as Fly Stim pointed out) is the SSEA is UK only at the moment.

NPPL(M) is accepted almost everywhere in EU land except Ireland.

julian_storey
20th Jun 2007, 12:13
Get yourself over to the States and bang the rest of your PPL out over there. I'll bet you could finish it in two weeks for not much more than $2000 ($2 to the £ at the moment!) so about £1000. You can rent a C172 WET for $79 an hour. (about £40!)

I've flown a flexwing microlight and it really is the most enourmous fun. I also fly bigger stuff though and there are advantages to being able to reliably fly somewhere (and home again!) in most weather and when it's dark!

Depends really on what kind of flying you want to do. Buzzing fields in a flexwing is great fun - BUT there is also something rather nice about taking friends to France for lunch and being able to come back after dark.

If you do decide to go to the States - it's a minefield. I got screwed over by a school out there when I first went to do my FAA commerical. They were thieving robbers who didn't even have a plane for me to do my flight test in! I found another though - which I would rate as being one of the nicest, most friendly, most honest flying schools on the face of the planet. Be careful - and if you do go, PM me first!

C42
20th Jun 2007, 21:58
i am just about to convert from NPPL m to NPPL sep as i have just ordered a TL Sting and a Titan T 51 Mustang. i started doing the JAR licence (only done 3 hours in a spam can) and done 3 of the exams. i then read on here that i can do the NPPL sep in 3+ hours. so i am taking the print out of the lasors to my flying school to discuss it with them. i passed my NPPL M in 8 days in exacly 25 hours (im sure the model flying helped) and i was able to do this because i bought my own plane and just paid the instructor. i passed 14 months ago and have done 180 hours since then! i have flown all over Europe and spent 3 days flying up and down the Austrian Alps.

now comes the crunch! if i convert to an NPPL sep i understand that i can not fly abroad? but i could on my NPPL m! or as my Sting is an ultralight on the continent, can i just bluff my way with my microlight licence when i get there :confused: also i was told that the NPPL sep will become a European licence soon anyway? :D

Dave

tangovictor
21st Jun 2007, 00:18
i am just about to convert from NPPL m to NPPL sep as i have just ordered a TL Sting and a Titan T 51 Mustang. i started doing the JAR licence (only done 3 hours in a spam can) and done 3 of the exams. i then read on here that i can do the NPPL sep in 3+ hours. so i am taking the print out of the lasors to my flying school to discuss it with them. i passed my NPPL M in 8 days in exacly 25 hours (im sure the model flying helped) and i was able to do this because i bought my own plane and just paid the instructor. i passed 14 months ago and have done 180 hours since then! i have flown all over Europe and spent 3 days flying up and down the Austrian Alps.

now comes the crunch! if i convert to an NPPL sep i understand that i can not fly abroad? but i could on my NPPL m! or as my Sting is an ultralight on the continent, can i just bluff my way with my microlight licence when i get there also i was told that the NPPL sep will become a European licence soon anyway?

Dave

Well done Dave, I considered doing the same thing, then settled on a 3 axis microlight, I believe its 5 further hours flight training, from nnpl m to nppl sep, plus you have to sit another " principals of flight exam " all your other exams need NOT be retaken.
Re Europe ; again your correct, microlights flown nppl m are ok, sep flown nppl sep, you are susposed to seek permission from each country prior to flight, whilst I love your bravado re bluffing ! watch out for your insurance, nuf said, I hope you enjoy your " Sting " great looking machine

Fly Stimulator
21st Jun 2007, 10:59
C42/Dave - You're right, the conversion process is very straightforward, but you are left with being unable to legally fly a light aircraft in Europe. That is at the discretion of the local authorities in the countries you plan to visit, so you could try approaching them and seeing if they will grant you permission.

tangovictor
21st Jun 2007, 11:24
Not true I'm afraid. I think you're getting that confused with adding a microlight rating to an existing NPPL SSEA licence in which case the SEP/JAR exams you'll already have passed 'trump' the microlight ones.

It doesn't work the other way round. When converting from an NPPL Microlight licence to the NPPL SSEA the microlight exams are not counted as equivalent to the JAR ones and so you will have to do all of the latter. If you already have a FRTOL you won't need to do that again.

When I considered, going from nppl m to nppl sep, I phoned the BMAA who gave me the phone No of a committe member who drafted the nppl licence
I spoke to her, and was told, if I were a current nppl m licence holder, & wished to pursue nppl sep, further flight training in the region of 5 hours + sitting Principals of Flight again, not the microlight version, is all thats required

Mariner9
21st Jun 2007, 11:44
As I understand it, (and I may well be out of date ;)) one of the "benefits" of the further training and exams to upgrade a licence from NPPL Microlight to the NPPL SSEA is that you can no longer fly to Europe :rolleyes:

Rod1
21st Jun 2007, 15:18
“As I understand it, (and I may well be out of date ) one of the "benefits" of the further training and exams to upgrade a license from NPPL Microlight to the NPPL SSEA is that you can no longer fly to Europe ”

This is not true. The NPPL is only valid in the UK, but it does not actively state that you cannot fly in Europe, just that it does not give you this right. Exactly the same situation existed some years ago on the MPPL. Lots of pilots asked for permission from various European countries, and it was being given 99% of the time. Eventually a deal was struck and the MPPL was accepted in Europe despite not reaching the international standard.

There have been reports of several NPPL/A holders requesting permission to fly in Europe, and getting it. The New R/EPPL will be along in <2 years and will give you this as a right.

The PFA permit rules are the same, and the same repeated request for permission caused a more general approval to be agreed.

Rod1

tangovictor
21st Jun 2007, 15:57
FS > thats exactly what I have been saying !

IO540
21st Jun 2007, 19:22
I can give one piece of general advice to anybody starting in this game: Unless you are absolutely cash strapped, don't cripple your mission capability by getting a UK-only qualification. You will live to regret it. In the long run, this game is above all a paper chase. Getting the plane you want is "just a question of money" but getting the privileges you want, at the time of your life when you decide you need them, can be impossible to squeeze into one's life, so if you can get them go for it! Being able to just jump into something and fly to France is priceless, if not for any other reason than there is no way to do it other than private flight.

I also think that a given person will spend a similar amount of money reaching a specific level of flying confidence no matter how they go about it. At average UK PPL training prices this is around £6000-9000. Some can do it for less but these are rare cases, and some take much longer.

tangovictor
21st Jun 2007, 21:42
FS > I can only quote, what was told to me direct in person, from someone who sat and formulated the nppl
having taken & attained the nppl m, should I wish to then go for the nppl -sep
further flight training is required ( I was quoted approx 5hrs ) and then a flight test, and another principals of flight exam must be taken, not the microlight version,
If you still do not believe me, I suggest a telephone call to the BMAA who will then pass details to you, of the nppl licence expert, whom I spoke with

Fly Stimulator
21st Jun 2007, 23:14
The five hours figure is achievable, depending upon the individual of course. There are actually two separate flight tests - a navigation skills test (NST) and a general skills test (GST). There's no need for phone calls - it's all just a click away here (http://www.nppl.uk.com/).


On the larger and more interesting question of whether the UK-only NPPL SSEA is worth doing (for those who have the choice and aren't restricted by things like medical issues) I think that IO540 is right. The limitations can become frustrating very quickly. A simple illustration is that you will generally need an ICAO licence in order to hire aircraft in other countries and the NPPL SSEA won't do.

A Europe-wide recreational licence might change the balance, but on the other hand an achievable UK IR would change it back again. IO's basic point of not saddling yourself with unnecessary limitations that later might need to be undone is a very valid one and worth thinking about carefully before committing to any particular route.

tangovictor
21st Jun 2007, 23:31
im not going to repeat myself, as Im sure others are as bored of this as I am, all I can say is, I telephoned and spoke with an nppl licence expert, number available via the BMAA, I specifically asked this question, and was given the already stated answer, she did mention, that, people are unclear as to which further exams are needed, and assured me, that ONLY principals of flight need to be retaken, not the already taken microlight version
This all assumes your a current nppl m licence holder, going on for nppl-sep

xrayalpha
22nd Jun 2007, 07:12
Hi all,

Yet again, the NPPL minefield rears its ugly head.

Here is the Microlight to SEP exam requirement - in writing - from the chief executive of the BMAA to all microlight instructors (which confirms that microlight exams are valid in place of JAR exams - IF you get a NPPL microlight licence first):

-----Original Message-----
From: Geoff Weighell
Sent: 20 November 2006 15:41
To: Roy Hart
Subject: NPPL


Roy,

You will remember that the NPLG Ltd now accept all the microlight exams except the Aircraft General and Flight Procedures towards the grant of a NPPL SSEA rating where the applicant is the holder of a NPPL Microlights. This is a change to the current Cross Credit document, revision 6, which is published on the NPPL website. Please send an email all the microlight instructors to this effect.

Thanks

Geoff

Yes, it is contrary to Lasors, but then lots of things are!

(There is also not a microlight "Aircraft General and Flight Procedures microlight exam!!!!)

I'm afraid I operate at the sharp end by running a microlight school and having to deal with this b@ll@x every week.

Perhaps, although I offer C42 microlight training, that was why I suggested just going straight for the light aircraft route.

For the hassle about adding a microlight instructor's rating to a JAR light aircraft licence, look at one of my earlier threads.

Very best wishes

Fly Stimulator
22nd Jun 2007, 09:48
xrayalpha - that's interesting thanks. A good illustration of the levels of confusion that have surrounded various NPPL requirements since the start. Geoff Weighell's statement as to what the NPLG will accept directly contradicts that organisation's own currently-published documentation.

With the documentation saying one thing and people being told something else by the organisations concerned it would seem that anybody going down this route had perhaps best get a statement one way or the other signed in blood from NPLG and FCL at the CAA.

Or go for a JAR PPL.

tangovictor
22nd Jun 2007, 10:54
now accept all the microlight exams except the Aircraft General and Flight Procedures towards the grant of a NPPL SSEA rating

F S > do I hear an apology

Fly Stimulator
22nd Jun 2007, 12:17
tangovictor - I do indeed apologise for suggesting you had misunderstood what you were told.

tunalic2
23rd Jun 2007, 03:20
Get it in writing, Get it in writing, Get it in writing,


telephone conversations are all well and good esp if it means less exams, but always get it in writing.For yourself and for everyone that will (justifiably) pull out a lasors and point.

Had the same problem years ago with a FAA Heli PPL which everyone tried to tell me meant I could not fly G reg in UK. ( I could but the onus was on me to educate, so I did, as you will, as its in your best interest)

meantime congratulations looks like you have less exams to sit
T2

BEagle
23rd Jun 2007, 06:25
Fly Stimulator, the information you are giving is as out of date as the link you provided. NPPL XCREV06 was amended many months ago; the current version is REV06.4.

See http://www.nppl.uk.com/documents/NPPLXCREV064.pdf for the current allowances for additional ratings.

REV07 will be released when the ongoing ANO amendment process reaches law. It will be a major revision.

Do remember that LASORS is only amended once per year, whereas the NPPL website is now updated as soon as any revised policy change has been approved by the CAA.

Fly Stimulator
23rd Jun 2007, 19:20
Thanks for the confirmation BEagle - I've removed and/or edited earlier posts to avoid propagating out-of-date information.

Tangovictor - I owe you a beer!

tangovictor
23rd Jun 2007, 21:44
Fs > no probs, what a minefield.