The RAF is Knackered

[helpmaboab]

I think most of us feel the same the RAF is knackered or at least not recognisable to the RAF we knew and loved. If you are in the RAF and feel this way why not do something about it and PVR. The moneys not that good anymore, that’s why experienced trades people are leaving in droves, because they can get their transferable skills and expertise recognised and rewarded in industries such as oil and gas, BNFL etc and not get dicked about and treated like kids.

Personally I am an Avionics Cpl with 12 years service, I have been told I should get promoted to Sgt next year, however I have PVR'd.

The reason I have PVR'd is because; I don’t like the constant penny pinching, too many examples to list, Beurocrasy gone mad, The erosion of the pay structure (certainly for AC Tech’s) the way the hierarchy keep doing things to assassinate moral, boss's who are under immense pressure to achieve unachievable results but don’t have the spine to say so etc etc etc where do I stop. As for promotion to Sgt, no chance I wouldn’t have it in a million years, minimal pay rise, posting, have to sell house, uproot family, all the extra responsibility etc etc etc is simply isn't worth it any more.

Enough of that; I'm sure there is a good few on here who would agree and also a few who would disagree, but that’s not my point.

My point is if you don’t like it just get out (except for the ones in the pension trap), alright it might take you 12 months but so what. Depending on your trade you've probably had fantastic training. You might not agree with this, but when you see the civvy competition you will soon realise you are worlds apart.

You do not realise how high a regard civilian employers have for ex service people until you start going to interviews and you see how impressed they are with the work examples you can give and life experiences etc.

I know oil & gas is not for everyone as some just want to do their time get a pension and work in Tesco's, yeah that’s fine each to their own. A lot of service leavers have got a lot to offer these sort of industry’s and are still young enough and quite happy working away from home, the difference is financially you will be rewarded and you will not be dicked about with silly little penny pinching rules introduced on a whim to save a couple of pence. I do realise the work can be a bit harder depending on the job, but we are all used to 12hr shifts on det with the occasional down day etc, except for maybe PSF with their one seater Pajero’s :ugh:.

I have just been offered a job starting salary of £35K per year (£5K pay rise straight away) but after 6 months when I rise to the next level this will be £45K and at the 12 month point £55k. These are guideline timings given by the company as to what graduate trainees normally take to get to the next level, however we all no we have got the mentality of just getting the head down and getting on with it so I may get there even quicker who knows.

Back to my original point if you feel the RAF is knackered and you’re not in the pension trap, just leave. I know it’s easier said than done, been there done that but I just feel that there is no point complaining about it. The Bliar/Brown government is not going to change anything I just feel it is easier to move on as my loyalty’s lie with my family and my duty is to provide for them.

I would be interested to hear other service or ex service peoples views, this is just mine, you may agree or disagree I don’t mind I’m just wondering how many feel the same as me. On a final note until about 3 years ago I was completely committed to getting promoted and LOS 30 etc.

All the best!!!

[mayorofgander]

Well Done!!!

You have seen the light.:D

Goodbye!!!:ok:

MOG:cool:

[F'Wx]

It was a year from my last day of service on the 19th May this year. Havent regretted it one bit tbh... Joined up at 16 and 3 months, maybe i was right, maybe i was wrong... Did 6 years, and realised that it was just far too easy to stay in...

Pay was ****e, the lack of opportunities for any real advance etc etc..

Im now earning 20% more, with far more promotion prospects, not to mention im actually treated like a human being, with my own say, instead of just another number..


I think in general, people stay in because of the following.. 'Its too easy to stay in'.. It was an easy job, with an easy lifestyle, everythings there for you, your cramped little room, food.. You can go out, spend all your money in the first week, and not have to worry about not being able to live for the rest of the month..

How many servicemen actually have any savings?? Not many i know of...

Civvy Street > Military...

Sad to see, but its my feelings nowadays... The friends are the one good thing from it all... The social side is second to none.

[cooheed]

Thanks for your life story Helpmabob. We all know, all arms of the Service could be in a better state however there are still some of us left with a bit of British spunk. If we could all leave tomorrow where would that leave us as a country?

[trap one]

I can see where you are coming from and admit that the Service also made me. But when said Service no longer keeps its promises, or fails to support its personnel then the Loyalty that has always been there from my point is no longer given from the Service then why should I continue giving my Loyalty to it.
A couple of for instances, (ex WC FC who was on E3's for 5 yrs). When posted to a instructor ground tour (with promotion) was promised that it would only be for 2 years. At this point flying pay stopped, which I had no problem with. Then 18 months later called back to Waddo to re qualify on E3, as crews were now flying with extra WC's for Afghanistan. Spent 6 months flying over Afghanistan or at Waddo doing currency/sims or on leave. Home unit not exactly happy with loosing me so they complain to HQ. HQ promptly waive requirements for currency of Sims, and take control of deploying personnel away from sqns. Yes I had gone more than my fair share, which I had no problems with because I was the only ERS WC who was single. Then came the 2 yr point and when asked PMA said no you're not going back to E3's we need you on the ground. But I was still ERS, and then got called back to deploy for Iraq.
Well I returned from Iraq to be told thats the end of ERS go back to the ground. That was in the June of 03 my flying pay which I should have been in receipt of from Nov 01 after I restarted flying duties was not sorted out till Sept 03.
When I was on that ground tour, as I had a Daughter I had applied for an excess quarter which I received. On 1 of my leaves (March) from Afghanistan I came home to find no central heating or hot water in the quarter with the Daughter due the following day (a Friday). After phoning the DHS help line cause faults weren't reported locally anymore and explaining that there was no Gas heating and that as the Electric to the boiler didn't have any lights to indicate if it was on or not. DHS agreed to send out a Gas fitter the following day. Otherwise it would have been 14 days for the Gas fitter to come out, if the boiler was working. Said Gas fitter arrived and using a special tool not available to Joe public ascertained that the boiler electric was working. So I could of heated the house by using the boiler but that was my money. After I returned from another Det there was a Bill for a FALSE EMERGENCY call out that was laid firmly at my feet as I had told DHS that the boiler was not working. As I gone into work where calls are taped and said I can not ascertain if the boiler was working and it was upto DHS to make the decision about the fitter or not. I told DHS where to stick their call out charge, and refused to pay it. The local bloke had to go higher to get that charge canceled.

Deliverance, it is instances like that that stop people from staying Loyalty always has and will always be TWO WAY. Shafting people and expecting loyalty in return will never work.

If your interested I did 27 years, and now work outside but also as a CI for the local ATC sqn. I don't discourage anyone wanting to join but I do make sure that they go in with their eyes open.

Cooheed, without deployable forces to be placed in harms way by politicos. Who fail to give the troops the required equipment and support they need.

It is an individuals choice at present to serve or not.

[AJ39]

COOHEED...

You obviously still believe this country still stands for great values and is worth fighting for. This is really hard to swallow at the moment, as the current government couldn't give a fat rats ar*e about our three armed services.

Whilst most service personnel will undoubtedly fight for their country. I am also fully aware that service personnel are having a much harder burden put upon their families, with increased regular detachments to not very nice places. Do you really think the country comes first before people decide to PVR??

Just think about the state of current morale and where it all stems from. We do have a great country thats worth protecting, we also have three very professional (yes, even the Army) and fantastically proud services. I'd just to finish by saying that, does the government actually realise that pride is slowly being eroded as investment and accountants lean, cut, amalgamate close down whilst expecting more and more from old equipment and much more importantly personnel.

Rant Over..!

God Save The Queen - Dio Salvi La Regina.

[threepointonefour]

Did 19 yrs, turned down PA.

I now run my own business and although it's early days, very promising because, as helpmaboab says,

when you see the civvy competition you will soon realise you are worlds apart.


Once I started actively looking for business I had four customers within 2 days. Three customers came within the first two hrs! Two of those customers want to forge longer term alliances with me, feeding each other clients. I've also met people that shouldn't be able to tie their own shoelaces, let alone run a successful business.

The service gives you the edge, discipline and motivation. People I meet are really quite surprised at my willingness to start work before 9 and finish well after 5! (I'm sure my former RAF colleagues would also raise an eyebrow!).

I think it's folly to play the 'lack of loyalty' card. I spent yesterday evening sat on a marina jetty fishing with a 45 yr old civvie who retired after selling his company. He has a great lifestyle and can devote plenty of time to his wife & family.

Show me a 'loyal' RAF aviator (or groundcrew) who can say that. Show me the same guy at 55 who retires, looks back and thinks his time in Afghanistan/Iraq was well spent - my next door neighbour did National Service in Basra in the 50s ...

I say serve your time and move on when you feel ready. The country is already 'in a state' - don't fool yourselves into thinking that you, the individual will make a difference (there's always another you waiting in the wings).


ps. The pension is not that good.

[Melchett01]

However, your call for everyone to PVR falls somewhat into the category of disloyalty. It was the service that helped shape you into the employable person that you are

Sorry, Deliverance, but Trap One has hit it square on the head - loyalty is a 2way street and only a fool or someone who is exceptionally niave would advocate slavishly standing up for any of the Armed Forces these days.

You want to send us off to war - fine. We will go, knowing that we may not come back, and we will do our jobs to the best of our abilities regardless of the hurdles the politicians and bean counters put in our way. We know that we are undermanned and will probably end up doing several peoples jobs, but we get used to it - rightly or wrongly, it has become the norm but again, we crack on and do the best we can, even though it would be all too easy to screw it up just to make a point.

We put up with all that, because we know that in return we are well paid. We can trust the High Paid Help to provide solid leadership and stand up for their troops. We know that if anything should happen to us whilst we are away, if it is the worst, out families will be looked after, otherwise we will receive first class treatment to help us get over our injuries. We put up with the long hours and over stretch because we know that at the end of the day, we will be rewarded with advancement and outstanding career opportunities by PMA who are there to help maximise the potential of each and every one of us. We know that despite in the back of our minds knowing that one day, we might just not come home, it is all worth it because we are doing a worthwhile job and the overall package is outstanding as befits the best armed forces in the world - we must be, the politicians keep telling us that we are.

Oh, erm, bollocks. That must be a different armed forces. Because the one I'm in has replaced leadership with spineless management and incompetence that makes David Brent look competent all in the search for that elusive OBE and next stripe. If anything should happen to us whilst on ops, well I just hope that people have understanding families and friends to look after those we leave behind. And to be honest, I think I'd rather take my chances with a comabat medic and a first aid field dressing than trek back to Smelly Oak (I had a great time living in Smell Oak as a uni student, but you really wouldn't want to go back there to recover from a Taleban RPG). Repeated long hours at home mean that at times, I quite look forward to getting out to theatre - it's less work and there's less crap to put up with. And the overall package has gradually been chipped away by the bean counters in the name of efficiency to a level that is probably well below what those bean counters themselves put up with and certainly far far below what any half decent civi company would provide. And as for the pay, on paper it looks ok, but have a look at your responsibilities at work and then compared what someone with similar levels of responsibility earns in civi street.

Given the shameful way we are being treated, I can only think that it is loyalty (and possibly the pension trap) keeping a lot of people in. But that loyalty is not being reciprocated and corporate good will is now running on fumes. I had leave cancelled at short notice to go out to 'stan last summer. I got back and could only take part of the leave I wanted to take because I was required for a monumentally pointless exercise. Despite having the cancellation signed off by my Flt Cdr, come the new leave year, I was told I couldn't carry my excess leave over as it was my fault I had not managed my leave properly. My spineless leader had a set of performance targets to meet and by God he was going to meet them regardless.

As far as I am concerned, the RAF can take a long walk off a short pier next time it wants that little bit extra that good will would normally have provided. Loyalty is a two way street Deliverance, only in today's armed forces it isn't. And as for the service making us employable, sorry mate, it's us that makes the service. Without decent people it would be nothing. And yes there are people still going in through the careers office door - but who would you rather go to war with - the 18 yr old with his A level in media and pottery or someone that has been around a bit and can cope when the sh1t hits the fan. And it's about time the very high paid help stopped talking and started doing.

[Junta Leader]

Couldn't agree more. Loyalty from us needs a lot of give-back from above. The 100-year experiment is destined to fail unless our lords-and-masters figure out a way of keeping us happy. Money doesn't always solve the problems (harmony guidelines anyone?), but can go a long way to ensuring a happy home life. All the good-deals are gradually being eroded such that it is a constant ops tempo, a spot of leave and then training for ops again.

I've been comitted from day 1 to making my 38 point. Thanks for the retention bonus at 32, but there is no way I'm staying a day beyond. I think that there are lots of us out there who have the loyalty until the end of out time (golden handcuffs not withstanding) but we must be losing nearly anyone who gets to a pensionable option.

Answer? I don't have one. Keep 'em happy is my only thought. How? that's what our L 'n' Ms get paid to figure out.

So long and thanks for the fun. Now where did I put that application form?

JL

:ugh:

[Navy_Adversary]

An article in todays MOS suggests that the Royal Navy are in the same boat as the RAF, please excuse the pun:)
The Army must be getting most of the defence budget:eek:

[themightyimp]

As someone who grew up in a caravan, I have a lot to thank the Service (RAF) for. My qualifications are as a result of their faith in me. I have done 19 years but have 2 years, 1 month and 9 days left. Not that I am counting. I will then leave and be able to effectively pay off my mortgage. At 38. Thanks to the Service. They got their pound of flesh and I have mine. :ok:

A balanced argument is oft missing in some threads (not a flame attempt btw).... :ugh:

[Chilli Monster]

Personally I am an Avionics Cpl with 12 years service, I have been told I should get promoted to Sgt next year, however I have PVR'd.

Sounds like you were joining just as I was leaving (redundancy 95/96)

I won't comment on the forces today, it's all been said before by others better qualified. What I will say is if you apply the same discipline and work ethic to civvy street (threepointonefour makes the point perfectly) that you will have done in the service then you'll have no problems and will progress rapidly.

I know a lot of people who left under the same circumstances as me, the vast majority of whom have done very well - far better than if they'd stayed in. In my case I've more than tripled my income, well on its way to being quadrupled, no mortgage and enjoying every day that comes, doing the job that I always wanted to do.

Tell yourself you'll be a success and you will be.

[Secretsooty]

For what it's worth, I made the jump and haven't regretted it one little bit! Started my own business, customers very happy that they have someone who will deal with problems outside "normal" working hours without them being shafted for higher labour rates etc, and they also seem to appreciate the "engineering integrity" that comes with my having had 22 years of aircraft engineering.
I was lucky - very lucky - I applied for and got redundancy, even though I had NO intentions of signing-on to LOS30, and actually left the RAF very close to my original 22 year point but with enough dosh to pay off the mortgage and set up my business. I am still involved in aviation engineering, still have contact with a lot of friends and workmates still serving, and I have absolutely no doubt that I jumped at the right time. When I look at what is happening at Kinloss and Lossie these days it just reinforces my thoughts no end.
Managers that have no spine to stand up to pressure (either real or perceived) from above, instead simply passing the pressure down the line seem all too common these days. There are some good guys left, but they are fighting a losing battle in my opinion. As the thread title states, "The RAF IS Knackered" indeed. A sorry state of affairs, brought about by penny-pinching politicians who do not realise or understand the implications of their decisions and then of course the "old-boys" sitting in their Ivory Towers at places like High Wycombe and Wyton looking after their own skins and making a top-heavy establishment even more so!

[Bigt]

I PVRd 11 years ago......thought I could see what was coming but I was wrong. It has been far worse.
Can`t comment on current life in the force as I have no day to day contact. I enjoyed my 23 years - would not have it any other way - did great things with great people in interesting places. For those that serve today - I appreciate what you are doing

[Exrigger]

I have said on other threads that I had no choice but to leave at age 47, I also saw the way things were going and realised that it was for the best. The only things I will say about civvie street is firstly jobs/wages, this can be a post code lottery particulary Lincolnshire as the 'industry' here believe that all ex-service guys are brilliant (true) and have a pension (not allways) so you only need to pay them £12-14,000, around here a local HGV driver can earn £17,000 and a night security guard £18,500.

With regards to ex-servicemen, there are those who actually cheese of their employers and fellow workmates when they are asked to work overtime, one response has been 'I don't need the money as I am only doing this job to top up my pension and to stop me being bored', this was the in food industry and the railways.

With regards to the current comments about the management of the RAF, you do realise that a lot of these 'managers' when they are out and are part of the civvie business management, work in the same manner as they did while in. There are also those who use the 'secondary duties' scheme rather than employ more people. There are civilian managers as well that have no idea either and I think some feel threatened by the ex-service community, but at least they don't hold you back for it and in the main they will listen to your views and in a lot of cases accept your ideas.

The main benefits of being out are the ability to be with your family and seeing the kids develop, something I missed over my 29 years, another is knowing that you earn your promotion without having to kiss a**se or lose/delay your chance because of a personality clash with your management, having your holidays as and when you want and if overtime is required you get paid for it.

[JessTheDog]

I PVRd a few years ago for a number of reasons, mainly because of the absolute barking stupidity of the cutbacks and the unforgivable deceit surrounding the Iraq war. I lost all confidence in the political leadership of this country, the most mendacious and rotten politicians this country has seen in modern democracy, and in the ability and willingness of the military leadership to act as advocates for their "people". I get paid a little less, but have a professional career that is mostly interesting, I live in my own home and know that I will be seeing my wife and daughter every evening. The state of morale is a key indicator of both the "military covenant" and the reciprocity of loyalty, and it wasn't particularly high (to say the least) when I handed in my 1250 for the last time.

[Spit the Dog]

Interesting that all these blokes who have PVR'd or have left the service sometime ago to start a new "llife", are sadly spending their sundays logged on to a military web site. Let it go guys !!

[AC Ovee]

I have a lot to thank the Service (RAF) for. My qualifications are as a result of their faith in me.


I'm sorry, MightImp, for using your quote, but its a typical comment from those of us who believe that the RAF has done something for us.

The fact is that it was you, and you alone, that obtained the qualifications and the development that ensued. The RAF did not, in any sense, give them to you. Sure, the Service might have provided the resources, but it was in the Service's interest that you took up the challenge of bettering yourself. You owe nothing to the Service as an organization. However, we all owe some loyalty, at least, to those Service friends and colleagues around us, on a short term basis (ie co-ordinating leave, AT and sports, supporting each other, etc, but when it comes to career decisions, we must all do what is best for us, individually. If that aligns with what the RAF wants for us, then fine, they luck in.

At the monent, I feel the RAF's corporate vision is misaligned with the aspirations of the majority of its people, which is a shame.

[JessTheDog]

Interesting that all these blokes who have PVR'd or have left the service sometime ago to start a new "llife", are sadly spending their sundays logged on to a military web site. Let it go guys !!

Hah! :}

I think, in most cases, PVR was undertaken with some regret. Ex-serving posting on this website demonstrates the esteem still held for a shared ethos and history, and a concern that it is going down the toilet. I am sure that old soldiers (etc) have complained about modern innovations since bronze weapons were replaced by iron ones, but the current obsession with management and spin is hardly a revolution in military affairs!

[Bus429]

As a civilian who has not served in the military - and at the risk of sounding patronising - I value those who serve. I deplore the government (and in particular the t**t PM) that cravenly seeks to posture on the international stage, gets the country into several scrapes and refuses to give the military the resources to do the job! Worse, they are scaling back and expect you to do more with less.
The MoD wastes tax-payers' money; I reckon economies could have been made in refurbishing the MoD headquarters to a lower standard, for example. The money could have been used to put the guns in the Typhoon (or more accurately, leave them in the Typhoon) and do something about your accommodation. I've been reading a book about the amount of money wasted by the MoD; the SA80 is good example of a total f*** up.

[Exrigger]

I cannot speak for any other ex RAF people, but when the site was pointed out to me I found the comments from current serving personnel quite enlightening. I did not want to leave but realised that the RAF was being mis-managed and reading the forums has confirmed my concerns.

Additionally a lot of the younger serving personnel/thinking about joining people/just about to leave personnel often ask for advice, it would appear that as a lot of experience is now the other side of the fence we do have something to offer.

Also there are those who seek historical information, which for those who are not old enough or have problems using Google they need the 'ex personnel' to dredge their memories and photo albums to help. Plus it is a place where we can find out about re-unions, the loss of friends and the recent sterling efforts from all to get Mr Pun VC into this country.

[Jaguar Pilot]

Spit the Dog:

Of course they do and why not you ******......?

JP

[Chilli Monster]

Interesting that all these blokes who have PVR'd or have left the service sometime ago to start a new "llife", are sadly spending their sundays logged on to a military web site.

1) This is an Aviation website, aimed at aviation Professionals. It just happens to have a military forum (a small percentage of the total content).

2) For you it's Sunday, for me it's day 5 of a 6 on, 4 off cycle - my Sunday is your next Friday.

3) The above just goes to show, as I found in my time, that certain blue suiters cannot grasp the concept of a world outside the military.

To$$er

[Dram]

As someone who proudly wore "Green" until relatively recently, the tone and attitudes of some of the posts on this thread are quite frankly amazing... Just loved the "Corporate RAF" bit btw! :rolleyes:

In my opinion we "owe" the Navy, Army and Airforce nothing. But we are bound by unbreakable bonds of loyalty to our brothers in arms, who are doing a great job under trying circumstances.

Some of the posts here are a clear betrayal of that concept in my opinion and serve to highlight to me the differences in attitude across the services.

[MikeeB]

The reason I have PVR'd is because; I don’t like the constant penny pinching, too many examples to list, Beurocrasy gone mad, The erosion of the pay structure (certainly for AC Tech’s) the way the hierarchy keep doing things to assassinate moral, boss's who are under immense pressure to achieve unachievable results but don’t have the spine to say so etc etc etc where do I stop.


I've never worked in the forces, but I'd be interested to know what makes you think that anywhere is any better? The company I currently work for (FTSE 100) pretty much fits the description you have written :(

Best of luck anyway, just try not to join a company driven by share price !!

[splitbrain]

How many of those that PVR'd would not do it all again anyway?

Absolutely. I can really only identify 2 out of my 27 years where I was working under the foulest combination of Sqn Ldr, Flt Lt and Flt Sgt one could ever hope to encounter, that I would hate ot have to repeat. The rest have given me an immense feeling of job satisfaction and comradeship. I have been to places, seen and done things that my school mates, whilst probably better off financially, could only ever dream of.
Nope, its been good to me, but I parted company at the right time I think. For those of you still in, good luck, stay safe and I'm sure it can't possibly be all THAT bad.

[cooheed]

COOHEED...

You obviously still believe this country still stands for great values and is worth fighting for. This is really hard to swallow at the moment, as the current government couldn't give a fat rats ar*e about our three armed services.

Whilst most service personnel will undoubtedly fight for their country.


Nice rant AJ39.

I am fully aware that this Govt couldn't give a 'fat rats arse' as you put it about the current state of all arms of the Service. Not come across many who fight for their 'country' though. In all my years, most of them fight for the guy next to them.

[peppermint_jam]

Never known of more PVR's on Sqn than we currently have right now where I work. I'd guess at around a dozen, which after lean has been through us is over 10% of our manpower.

It would seem that the powers that be (SEngO included) dream up new and interesting ways to make our lives miserable every second of every day. I've just got back off det and I can quite honestly say there are very few reasons to stay at first line any more.

I though I'd be career, but I'm seriously thinking of making it a bakers dozen.

If I could see light at the end of the tunnel and the chance of things improving, then I'd just weather out the storm, but I honestly can't.

[Melchett01]

As someone who proudly wore "Green" until relatively recently, the tone and attitudes of some of the posts on this thread are quite frankly amazing... Just loved the "Corporate RAF" bit btw!

In my opinion we "owe" the Navy, Army and Airforce nothing. But we are bound by unbreakable bonds of loyalty to our brothers in arms, who are doing a great job under trying circumstances.

Some of the posts here are a clear betrayal of that concept in my opinion and serve to highlight to me the differences in attitude across the services.

FFS wake up and smell the coffee! Or were you one of those senior "managers" making life difficult for everyone else in the name of the OBE or the extra pip/crown?

Do you honestly think just bending over and taking like a bunch of good boys helps anyone out? We are not being disloyal to our brothers in arms out on the front line. In case you hadn't noticed we have precious little confidence in our senior military leadership to do the right thing and absolutely none in our political leadership. But each and everyone of us on this forum would probably fight to the bitter end if it meant getting serving personnel on the front line out of a tight spot in one piece. That is loyalty, not sitting there and being shafted day after day.

And I'm sorry, but if you can't read between the lines on this thread and many others like it, not only here but also on our sister sites, and see that is what those of us on the front line are saying now, have been saying for several years and the way things are going will be saying in several years time, then you must have been one of those "everything is fine Sir, now can I have my promotion" types.

And I suppose it does highlight the difference between the services as you rightly say: too many "Green" types are renowned for saying yes for the sake of saying yes without any thought as to the sanity or wisdom behind what they are being asked to do. And if that's your idea of leadership and followership, then I'm happy where I am.

[Dram]

Damnation!! The OBE, pips, crowns and other goodies must have been lost in the post! All those knackered and worn out knee pads too! What a waste. :uhoh:

You seem to have read a lot into my post..too much perhaps? I have always held the RAF in very high regard throughout my service and it pains me greatly to see serving and ex members whining and hanging out their dirty washing in such a public forum.

As an ex "grav", this seems diloyal in the extreme. Not only to your service, but more importantly to your mates currently at the sharp end. The politics and BS are irrelevant, the guy covering your arrse isn't!

[Doctor Cruces]

Left the mob in '97 after 22 years of breaking my bo**ocks trying to do the right thing, trying to work out what the heck WAS the right thing and trying to get promotion.

In my last job I was treated like a valuable member of staff and allowed scope far above my rank in a very "you can't do that because you are only a Corporal" sort of society. I worked with aircrew who were generally much older than the norm (as were the aircraft) and [I] was treated like a grown up and my specialist skills were appreciated and well used.

I left and went into Civil Airline Operations and 18 months after leaving was Operations Manager of a small airline flying big aeroplanes. I was able and I rose to the top because those who mattered saw my skills (not least the sense of duty which I had honed in the RAF) and were able to advance me to mutual advantage. My salary doubled from when I left the service.

ANYONE who has the skill, the knowledge and the will can make it outside the services. Staying in will only stifle ambition with outdated practices and too much niff naff, trivia and too much "you need to be a higher rank to do that". I'm glad I left and I wouldn't go back for all the tea in China.

Doc C

[hobie]

If we could all leave tomorrow where would that leave us as a country?

Well not in Iraq or Afghanistan for a start .....

come to think of it ...

that's not a bad idea .... :)

[XferSymbol]

Well said prior!