"Free hours"

[Stringfellow Dork]

I would like to read some thoughts and opinions on the following hypothetical situation:

You have just recently become a CPL(H) holder and are working towards getting the hours required for an FI(R) or are just keeping current whilst you wait to do your IR. The company you did much of your training with needs a helicopter - that you're rated on - ferrying some and have no-one available to take it. They ask you to take it for them - "free hours" is your payment.

What do you do?

Jump at the chance to get the much needed/useful hours for free and think this could possibly be the beginnings of eventual paid work, even though working for free goes against your principles, and be pleased for the semi-break being such a low-timer?

Or...

Ask how much they are going to pay you - after all you got a CPL(H) to be paid to fly - perhaps appearing ungrateful for "free hours", and maybe shooting yourself in the foot regarding more free hours or even future paid work by being difficult?

What do you say to them? Anyone been in such a position?

I look forward to reading any replies. And just to reiterate - the above is hypothetical, not a situation I or anyone I know is in - just something I could see happening and was extremely ambivalent about.

[jetflite]

Seeing as far as you know.. it's a once off thing.. "GO FOR IT".
If you don't someone else will...this could be an opportunity to prove your self to this company as a skilled, motivated and competent Helicopter Pilot.
They may well remember your attitude, dedication and professionalism,
when a job does come up...hey presto.. you got the call in.

If these opportunities are every so often, then you've got nothing to loose.
If this becomes an all day everyday thing... then they should pay.

This is a good thread...as this is a real life situation every where in the world...everyday.

You just have to know the line and when your being used..by cheap, tight arsed operators.

[topendtorque]

They may well remember your attitude, dedication and professionalism,



You can preserve your integrity in regards to the above by being astute, polite and careful; think of the following before you reply.

There’s been a recent thread on this, to which I didn’t contribute, and seeing as how Industrial Relations and workplace agreements is just soooo topical in this country, for my two bobs’ worth. I would say; Do Not Do It.
Why?

Simple, as a student you are covered under all the insurances that the flying school and the student needs.

As a line employee working for gratis without an employee arrangement you are not.

What if the machine has a problem, no fault of yours, you get hurt, you are in hospital needing MUCH medical care, compo? Right? Wrong. Now just what did you have as your nominal wage on the company records, for you to receive as your fair compo while you wait six weeks, lets say six years before you are eligible to resit your medical not to mention the by now several millions of dollars of hospital bills??

Then there is the other little bit about, did you sign off on the company ops manual? No? Well you obviously did not have the chief pilot’s approval to fly the aircraft. The owner of the aircraft, who is far more pragmatic than the operator or cheap skate flight organiser, is going to pursue you for the bloody lot. This will include the damage to the bimbo that you just happened to have on board for a quick jolly on the way home not to mention the house that was destroyed which you crashed into on the way down.

Frightened, don’t be. Put in all in your diary before you take off and when things go belly up hire a smart solicitor and sue the pants off of the stupid company that deliberately put you at risk.

[ShyTorque]

TET, good post.

I would be very inclined to remind the cheapskates that if you decline, they will have to employ another pilot. I presume the aircraft ferry flight is so that they can use it to make a profit? You have already contibuted to that profit by feeding them much of your hard earned dosh, for your licence so YOU can make money.

Just tell 'em to ram it.

[Bladecrack]

I disagree with the last two, := I think if it was a one off you should do it, provided you are insured to fly the aircraft in question. It would show you are keen and willing to gain experience, but I wouldnt advise doing it all the time for free. If I offered the chance to a new CPL pilot and they started dictating terms and conditions and wanting paid, It would seem very arrogant to me and i would tell them to get lost...
BC.

[helicopter-redeye]

...they will have to employ another pilot...

Would'nt they just pass the opportunity onto somebody building hours to a CPL instead, or another person (PPL rated on type) or somebody else who would like the hours at no cost?

Cue lenghty debate about 'valuable consideration'. What is worth more. £40 or 1hr B206 time?

After all, you can still sign the FO Book and have permission and even have a contract (signing the FO book would constitute in some form a contract)

Discuss.

[Helipilot1982]

I was in the position the other day where i was the only person qualified on type to ship an aircraft for maintenance as all the others were busy - needless to say i took the offer. Free turbine hours insted of me having to pay for the hours towards the 250 needed for an FI rating. It all helps especially as a low timer - just make sure you are insured etc!!!

[Whirlygig]

It would be interesting to know that of those who say, "fill yer boots and go for it" and those who say, "don't sell your soul to the profiteering operators", how many hours each respective group has and whether they already have work as a commercial pilot.

The perspectives of each group will be very different.

Me? studying for CPL with 135 hours and I'd go for it with proviso of insurance.

Cheers

Whirls

[jeepys]

You gotta do what you gotta do because if you dont someone else will. Happens regularly I am sure where they will charge a PPL a discounted rate to position a machine. Now that is taking the **** earning twice over on one job but it happens and there is no shortage of people working for nought for hours or even paying a reduced rate to earn someone else the cash.

Dog eat dog industry sometimes.

[Whirlybird]

Flying schools rarely if ever pay for ferry flights, because there's always a PPL or low hours CPL who'll be happy to do them for free. People fight over them much of the time! So refusing to do it will gain you nothing. Unfair, but the way of the world. :(

[Tightly Wound]

Mate, everyone above has a very valid point. I think your initial statement is important though, you said it was against your principles. Everybody here has different principles, its what makes them real people.

If this is against your priniciples then there shouldn't be any question whats right for you, why change your principles to appease someone on the offchance they might employ you later. That same person might well ask you to do something unsafe in an aircraft (everything comes back to money), will you change your principles then; and get pushed/coerced into a bad spot.

If they are a worthwhile employer/team, they will understand your concerns and maybe sort out the insurance issues, if they are not they will throw out the 'well we'll find someone else'. In which case I'd say sod them.

TW

[garystemp]

Forgive me for posting from my other ID but I am away again. (I really must find out my password) !

I think that both sides have a point, however if you were running a for profit organsiation and someone such as yourself who had paid a lot of money into the company in the past, is it wrong to offer them some free flying (I know I would)? Yes it might save the company some money, but these things usually find a way of having someone fly them for free, why should it not be you.

If you are paying for your hour building towards your FI and someone offers you free flying, take it particularly turbine time, it can do you no harm in the future.

The insurance situation is certainly worth confirming before you go, but if the operator is the one paying the bills the insurance company will often approve what is requested.


Gary S.
AKA VeeAny

[DoinTime]

I think alot of people forget how hard it was to break into heli scene.... You can not get a job with low hours and you can not get hours with out a job.....

I say go for it, work your arse of to get there and the money will come in turn.... that is just the way it is in this industry. It is a real struggle when you first start off. All the guy's that say Do not go for it, are obviously sitting pretty on the hours needed. Like everyone said, if you do not do it someone else that is thirsty will.

Take every oppertunity that comes knocking!!!!

[Bladecrack]

Well said DoinTime :D

BC

[helimutt]

or there is another option. Help out a fellow aviator with different principles. Give ME their number and i'll do the ferry flight for free, between my busy offshore schedule. That way, you keep someone up the food chain happier and maintain your own high standards. Well? LMAO:E




It's a no brainer my friend. If you're insured, just do the flight. As mentioned, you need to build hours. I have sorted a few 'free' hours out for hour builders before now.
No big deal really.:ok:

[Impress to inflate]

With regard to whirlygigs reply I would say Go for it. I have 7000 hours and have been at the bottom of the pile and every hour counts. BUT make sure.
1, You will be insured
2, It is a one off
3, Get your name at the top of the list

[Stringfellow Dork]

Thanks very much for your thoughts and opinions everyone. Good discussion. :ok:

For the record I think I agree with majority - if insured go for it. They need a machine moving, you need the experience - a mutual back rubbing session! So long as you keep an eye on the bigger picture I think everyone stands to gain (except perhaps the pilot who might have been paid to move the helicopter).

All in all to turn down hours at such a nascent point in your career is probably not going to help you get to where you want to be. Which is your bigger concern - not work for free cos you wouldn't like to have work taken from you if you were an experienced pilot or really struggling for work cos you have no hours/came across as arrogant?

I think this situation highlights how working for free can be a bit of a grey area and to simply say never work for free (which let's face it is what would be happening in this situation) is not an easy thing to do when starting out. But I suppose advertising your services for free, as has been seen, is a slightly different matter.

Cheers again.

[topendtorque]

SD.
It’s a very valid subject which needs airing from time to time, and I thank shy torque for his compliment, much appreciated.

Many get to learn how to hovver and prevent bovver with things rotary from very inexperienced people with regards to the ways of the commercial world and its inherent nasties.

But in nearly all schools there should be a crusty old salt that students can turn to whom we all might hope goes that extra yard, outside the curriculum, to give pointers as to how to safegaurd their professional conduct in later life. Industrial Relations is such an important issue these days.

I don’t mean to offend those who suggest ‘go ahead lap it up’, as they all qualify that with a 'check your insurance etc.' but students will still need pointers as to how they handle themselves professionally, and in polite manner quite apart from flying technique.

I surely would never get an argument on here against the idea that we regard our rotary professions as the best.

As a profession it does not need to be coupled to the oldest one at any time.

I believe that it is more a question for the operators who look for the cheap pilot rather than the pilot that is looking to freeload hours.

Perhaps the question could also be posed to some of the crusty old engineering salts for their opinions?
Cheers tet

[Whirlygig]

but students will still need pointers as to how they handle themselves professionally
The original hypothesis was regardng a qualified CPL, not a student. I would hope that anyone who has gained a commercial qualification will be professional.

One of the problems with being a low time CPL is that many helicopter roles require a certain level of experience. This could be the requirement of the operator but more likely mandated by insurance companies or organisational regulations.

Therefore an operator may well feel that ferrying an aircraft is an appropriate task for a low time CPL and, if the choice is a salaried and experienced pilot performing the task (whose salary cost is a "sunk" cost) or a low time CPL, they why not give the opportunity to the low-timer. Since the operator will not want to incur any marginal cost by paying a low timer to perform the task, he requests that it is done for free whilst the experienced, salaried chap partakes further practice of Olympic tea-drinking!

I know of at least two operators who have this employment structure so it is feasible and understandable.

Cheers

Whirls

[Swamp76]

Speaking from Canada, and not having worked at a flight school or VFR operator for some time.....I'll pipe in anyway.

In my experience we have never used a pilot to move a machine unless they were on the payroll, in some capacity or another.

1. As far as the CPL standard being enough, reality has proven that the regulator's standard for a CPL is less than what any operator I have worked for expects as a minimum for a line pilot. Additional coaching and training was always given, and the company check ride had a higher minimum standard of performance.

2. An operator actually so short of staff it cannot move a machine would give me goose-bumps.

3. The odds of things going badly are slim, but not nearly slim enough to take chances. Be very sure of where you stand legally, your family is depending on you.

4. Never compromise your own principles, once it happens, they are never the same again.

I've got a reasonable amount of time now, nut I remember well the feeling of being too short of experience to get the next job/promotion. I and most of the pilots I work with have taken every opportunity we can to offer chances for the up-and-comers to build time. I can see why you would take the trip, and would not begrudge you your decison in this or any other situation, just be careful.

[Max_Chat]

I would fly for free just for the chance of jumping into a Gazelle again. No white noise from the coppers and a machine made for fun flying.
Any offers ????? ;-)