How you guys "LAND" ..... ?

[SRover40]

Yeah, bit of awkward question....

I mean...When I make a landing, I try to look outside and
try to feel airplane coming down...down...down...

What I really wanna ask....is .....

How (the hell) you know ...the exact point that airplane touching
down ?



>> could be silly ques.......

THx

[PA38-Pilot]

Sorry if this answer doesn't help you... but it's called practice.

You'll just learn when it is the right time to flare, and when the aircraft will kiss mother earth.

There are a lot of technics, some say to look at the end of the runway, others at the edge (specially if in the aircraft you use might have quite a high nose attitude... and you are small). After a lot of practice you'll get it, and it will make transitioning to another small aircraft quite easy.

[sailing]

You shouldn't try to land.

Just fly low down the strip as far as you can with the throttle closed, and let the aircraft decide when to land.

When you stop trying to land, it all gets a lot easier!:ok:

[Ultralights]

when you flare look down the END of the strip. the landing will come naturally and smooth after that! the closer you look in front or to the side of the aircraft, the harder landing is.

[Fuji Abound]

Sailing is nearly right.

We know how high the aircraft is off the tarmac because we gradually build a mental picture of what the scenery looks like at this height. Our picture includes various components including our peripheral vision.

The problem is that most new pilots are in a rsuh to land. The brain therefore has very little time to get use to the picture at 20 feet, 10 feet etc.

The trouble is you will have read so many stories about running out of runway and floating of the end etc you will be relieved to land on the keys, and whilst some of these stories are true, in time you will realise on a runway of reasonable length you have more in front than behind. However, it is not a good thing to go off by yourself practising landing long until you have sufficient experience.

Landing long also does not help if you are simply changing your point of arrival as opposed to allowing the aircraft to float or fly along the runway at a few feet above.

So my own theory is find a good instructor and a long runway. Fly as many approaches as you can and each time fly the aircraft a few feet above the runway for as long as you and he are happy before doing a T and G. The brain is now gathering as much information about what 5 feet looks like in an hours session as it will in 5 hours session doing rushed T and Gs. Just my theory you understand :).

[wombat13]

SRover40, get yourself down the local video store and hire a copy of Star Wars. Fast forward to the part where they are going in to attack the baddie spacestation, and all of the pilots are failing using the onboard technology. Young Master Luke goes in for his run and Old Ben comes into his mind, tells him to trust the Force, at which point he disengages the onboard technology, drops his bomb and saves the universe (until the next film at least).

Well, flying is nothing like that :}

Pointer number 1. Secret to a good landing is a good approach. Make sure you are set up properly (speed, trim, centre line).

Pointer number 2. Only apply final stage of flap when you know you can glide to the field without power.

Pointer number 3. Trick is to try not to land. Power off at about 10 ft, sacrificing airspeed for lift - in other words, keep pulling back on the column when you feel the aircraft dropping. Very normal for the stall warner to go off in the flare, don't let it worry you.

Final pointer. Commit to your actions. Do not be on short final thinking you can remedy a poor approach. Either commit to land from a good approach or commit to going around on a bad approach.

The Wombat

[Mike Cross]

How (the hell) you know ...the exact point that airplane touching
down ?
Well, in my case generally it's signalled by a loud noise and a kick in the pants.:\
In reality, as others have said, You must start with a good approach, and as part of that you need to know the right speed. There's an unfortunate tendency to add an extra 5 kt (sometimes twice!) by people who are scared of the stall. Get hold of the Pilot Operating Hanbook and see what the manufacturer recommends. Often you'll find it's lower than the instructor suggests. Practice rounding out without puliing the power back and then flying parallel to and just above the runway surface. You don't need to land off this exercise, just climb away and go around (watching out for any pitch change as the power comes on).
It helps also to understand the mechanics of what's going on. The airplane is descending and you are going to arrest that descent. Doing so will require energy to be expended. That energy has to come from somewhere and if you do it right it'll come by a reduction in the kinetic energy of the airplane (it'll slow down). This is preferable to providing the energy by hitting the ground with the airplane. How much energy is needed will depend on a number of factors but a couple to watch out for are the speed of descent and any slope in the runway. A steeper approach will require the expenditure of more energy, as will a higher landing weight. If the touchdown area has an upslope you'll need to rotate more and maybe even start climbing to remain parallel with it. If it has a downslope you'll need less energy, lose less speed in the roundout, and float. In essence you need to hold the power on a little longer with an upslope or a heavier weight, and can afford to reduce it a little earlier with a downslope.
If it's gusty the extra 5 kt is a good idea. If it's gusty it means the wind is strong and the landing distance will be reduced as a result so you aren't going to float. The purpose of the extra 5kt in this case is to stop you being unceremoniously dumped on the runway by a lull.
You may also find it helps to do the roundout first and then gradually reduce the power once you are flying parallel to and just above the runway. Rounding out while simultaneously reducing power can make life tricky sometimes

[Fuji Abound]

Wombat 13

You are right and I know that is the conventional wisdom. A consistant and accurate approach will make for a good landing most every time.

However, another thing worth trying is go fly with someone who really knows their aircraft. Get them to show you a few different approaches.

In a lot of types it is amazing the variation in approach profiles that can be turned into a good safe landing.

What this demonstrates is that getting yourself in the right position at about 300 feet or less, and "hitting" the right speed at 100 feet or less under control and on the centre line will aslo result in a good landing every time.

Well worth experiencing for that time you need to recover in poor weather or into a short field. :)

[Pitts2112]

Fuji's right on but get a bit of experience on good approaches first before you learn how to rescue rubbish ones or make variations to the standard. It's a good skill to have, but more like an advanced one. You need to be able to really see the glide angle in order to do it.

I've got a mate who really torques me off in the Taylorcraft. He can't make a good approach to save his life but he's a genius at rescuing crap and making the smoothest greasers off them. Really makes me jealous!!!

Pitts2112

[sailing]

Wombat: "Well, flying is nothing like that" :}

Thanks Wombat, pure gold!:ok:

And thanks Fuji Abound....glad to know that after 3000 hrs (only half of that instructing) I might know something about it!:cool:

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

Best advice so far in this thread is TRY NOT TO LAND!

As the aircraft sinks towards the runway, ease the stick back. The secret is to do this j-u-s-t above the runway, so when the wings run out of lift and she'll fly no more, she'll just sink-on 3-point (in a tail dragger) or onto the mains, nose high, in a trike.

Note the technique is the same for either u/c configuration. It's just that you can get away with awful technique in a trike including 3-pointers (but it won't be pretty or professional), whereas the taildragger will demand correct technique.

[Fuji Abound]

And thanks Fuji Abound....glad to know that after 3000 hrs (only half of that instructing) I might know something about it!

Just goes to show after 3,000 hours we still dont have all the answers. :)

Of course we all know the old jokes, there are just three things that result in a perfect landing every time, trouble is no one knows what they all are. :):}

[mark147]

As others have said - firstly, don't try to land. Then, to judge your height you need to learn to take in the right information from what you're seeing. This takes practice but the main thing is to make sure that in the flare your gaze is directed right down at the far end of the runway. However, you need to take in the whole picture - don't just concentrate your attention at the far end of the runway, take in the appearance of the ground left and right - that's where the clues to your height are to be found.

Try an experiment on a smaller scale:

Assuming you're sitting at a desk, kneel on the floor so your eye level is a few inches above the desk (try to find a moment when there's no-one else in the office!). Look at a point on the desk close to you. Now move your head up and down by an inch or so. See what changes in your field of vision. Not a lot. This is what you see during the flare if you keep your attention focussed on the aiming point you had during the approach.

Now look much further away at the far end of the desk and do the same thing - move your head up and down. See how the whole perspective changes quite dramatically. Pay attention to what happens in your peripheral vision as you move up and down but keep your eyes pointing at the far side of the desk. This is what you need to pay attention to during the flare.
Once you know what to look at, you'll find it much easier to land. You still need practice - although the information is there in what you're seeing, you haven't time to consciously think about it - that part needs to be learnt. However, once you start to look at the right things, your brain is then getting the information it needs and you'll improve very quickly.

M.

[Whirlybird]

How (the hell) you know ...the exact point that airplane touching
down ?

I don't know that anyone has answered this. I don't think you do know. You don't try to land, you hold off and wait, and finally...crash, bang (in my case, usually)...or if it's a greaser, you suddenly realise you're on the ground, and wonder how you got there.

Unless you're in a spot landing competition, or coming close to the end of a short runway, why do you need to know the exact point?

But I'm only a helicopter pilot, so maybe I'm missing something here.

[SRover40]

I appreciate your good advice...
thanks and always take care....

[Mike Cross]

Trying not to land is a good technique but it's essential that you try it at the right height. Trying not to land at 12 feet agl can bend one's underparts. (particularly in the Luscombe, when it decides it doesn't want to fly any more it does so in an emphatic no-nonsense manner).

Trying not to land at a height of minus 2 feet can be equally problematic. :uhoh:

It really is the peripheral vision that does the trick, You need to look at the far end to get the attitude right but you also need to be aware that it's not the far end you're landing on. The end you're over could be 20 feet lower!

[Jetscream 32]

Go for a few glider flights - will work magic for you..!!!
trust me im a doctor - after that, practice, practice,practice.

Good landings normally equal:
1. Currency of flying - general and type
2. Speed, approach & trim
3. Weather
4. Passenger waffle
5. Familiarity of airport
6. If you got your oats last night....... Doh!!! maybe not that important...:} ;)

[Lister Noble]

I had a lot of problems gauging landing heights,as I'm sure many of us did.
What really worked for me was to sit quietly in the aircraft without engine running ,on the ground,on my own ,and just look around for some time to see the height at touchdown.
Lister:)

[redbarron55]

I have a bag full of good landings. I have used very few of them. Occasionally when I need one I can pull one out. That is where you get the phrase "I just pulled that one out".
The trick is to get a good instructor to show you how to put them in the bag. Remember the phrase "it's in the bag?".
This is one area where you really need a good instructor who not only knows how to do it himself, but can show you as well. They are hard to come by in the recent era.
In the old days the instructors were old pilots who ran small opertations and really didn't understand much except that they wanted to fly and teach others how to do it too. They had plenty of experience in turning propellers in anger and had little desire to drive a bus for someone else. They had most of their life in flying.
Now your typical indtructor is passing through the instructor phase on his way to glory driving that bus. He got his instructors licence in about 250 hours and is using the student's money to try to learn to fly himself. It's called building time.
Funny now the least capable are teaching the beginners how to do it!
Lots is left out or omitted because the instructor (who was taught by one just like imself) never got the hang of it either.
Sorry for the rant.

[Piltdown Man]

1. Look where you want to land.
2. Start the approach from the right place and configure.
3. Fly at the right speed, no more no less (1.3 VS + WC), (remember Power, Attitude & Trim). Keep the place where you want to land (your "Aiming Point") in exactly the same bit of window.
4. As you get to the interesting bit (ie. just before you smote the ground), as has been said before, look out using your peripheral vision. Take the power off and stop the thing from landing, just...
5. Wallop/Swoooosh/Kebang or whatever, you have landed!

Now that was your first one. You will have overshot where you wanted to land. Now move your Aiming Point downwind by the amount of your error. Do your next approach towards your aiming point and this time, if you keep everything else the same, you'll be closer.

Keep trying but remember that you'll not hit your aiming point but land a bit further up the strip/runway. This distance depends on the wind, your configuration, your weight, the approach angle, your speed and how you round out... just to mention a few of the variables. But the secret to the lucky landing in the right place is as Gary Player put it a few years ago: "The more I practice, the luckier I get!"

PM

[davidatter708]

Now I dont know why but I never had the problem of landing it might have been the 20hrs I had passenger in an rv6 before doing my ppl but Not only mess about with approaches but with flap I can say I hate third stage of flap on a cessna and unless I really mess up am on a short field i never use it it is only ever 2 stages however im happy with none and 1. I think one of the musts is have the aircraft decently trimmed than you dont have to yank right back in the flair. I also practised on different rwy lengths from the longest about 900 meters to the shortest 335 meters (shortest licensed rwy in the uk:p) and dont worry bout where you going to land just what speed you approach. At the end of the day if you aint having fun and are stressing too much you wont perform your best. Hope this helps if not oh well. I fly a c152 if you wanna know.
David
ps you can feel the onset to the stall and you wuill know wether you r too high or low.

[redbarron55]

The secret is like flying - "Throw yourself at the ground and miss"
The Hitch Hikers Gude To the Galaxy.
The other answer is 42.

[18greens]

'Throw yourself at the gound and miss!!'

Redbarron you just beat me to it!!! And theres a fair piece of truth to it!!!!

[Mikehotel152]

Badly, twice yesterday...:{ Let's just say, I arrived.;)

Very uncharacteristic, but true...

[davidatter708]

Better than not arriving

[gasax]

Sometimes with great beauty, where the tranistion from air to ground results only in the wheels turning and the noise and airflow decreasing.

Sometimes with great daring where the turbulence and obstacles are surmounted and potholes avoided.

Sometimes a little ugly with the craft rattling to a halt.

But best of all wait for a day with just the lightest dusting of snow. Take off to one side of the strip and then land a couple of times in the same place on the other side. Best result? 3 within 35m But calm air and I was trying.

All done with the sort of thing talked about here - the same fully trimmed airspeed, power controls height, the aircraft must not arrive but gently alight from a held off position.

[redbarron55]

The secret ois in control of energy in the system. Airspeed and altitude are energy, Drag uses up energy.
Too fast and you have too much energy and too high does the same.
The reason that a good approach leads to a good landing is the energy in within the proper range.
You can change the drag with flaps and side slipping, within limits. Power from the engine will also modify energy. All of the available control need to be used to manage energy so that the energy required for flight at some speed is balanced correctly at the point of touchdown.
I love taildraggers because tha window of energy at touchdown is so wide. You can land from stall speed to cruise depending on if yoy are three pointing or wheel landing. With a tricycle gear the only viable option is the three point at or slightly above the stall.
Faster you chance wheelbarrowing or floating like a fast frisbee over a hot parking lot. The brakes won't work very well either. Slower and you arrive with a great thump.
Just remember flying and landing particularly is a matter of control of energy in the system, how to get some or lose some at the right time.:ok: