More money out of our pockets!!!!!

[Rigchick]

I know there's been a long and bitter thread going on about the loss of rations to Aircrew but has anyone out there yet noticed the loss of food allowances to ALL personnel being sent on courses?

It was brought to our attention last week(!) that as of 1st July this year that all meals taken whilst on a course that the RAF has sent you on (not requested by the individual) is now going to incur full food charges from day one!

Now before everyone jumps up and down about how we should pay to eat and the like, just stop to think about it for a minute. If you were working for a civvie company that decides to send you on course that you haven't asked to go on (or even if you have) then that company gives you an allowance either before you go or on your return to pay for your food whilst away from your primary home.

Why should I be penalised and out of pocket to the tune of over £200 per month just because our lords and masters want me to learn something that I (and most of Civvie street) have no interest in.:mad:

What really gripes me is that this has been kept VERY quiet. I found out completely by accident and even my HR staff know nothing about it:eek:

It has already had an effect in my office with some personnel stating that they're going to turn down further courses as they can't afford it. Not with still having to pay to feed the family that is still at home.

I know this seems like a petty whinge but it's really going to hit some personnel very hard. Like we don't get s:mad:t on enough already!

[cooheed]

Been done here RigChick

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=269176

[Rigchick]

Sorry, was having a blonde moment:ugh:

Didn't see the other thread, but I'm in such a bad mood about it, having just been stiffed with a course I don't particularly want, that I really needed to vent:mad:

[TheSmiter]

You've every right to be in a bad mood about it Rigchick and as for:

What really gripes me is that this has been kept VERY quiet. I found out completely by accident and even my HR staff know nothing about it:eek:

I think you'll find it snuck under CASWO's radar too - that's how sneaky THEY are these days.

What never fails to amuse me is how THEY don't get the connection between 'efficiencies' and morale, or the complete lack thereof.

The drips are turning into a deluge boys and girls. :sad:

[FHA]

Boy, I'm glad I got out before I had kids.
It was the accumulation of things like this that used to brass me off more and more. :ugh:
Does this charge apply to all ranks?

[Pontius Navigator]

Now the stupid thing is that the civil servant, on say the same course at Halton, will be in a hotel and entittled to half a bottle of wine with dinner every evening.

[ProfessionalStudent]

I'd like to do JOCC, but I can't afford to. ;)

You see, every cloud has a silver lining!

Seriously, I'd have to think about going on a course now. With mortgage rates going up and all...

[Tigs2]

Now this is going to be dead interesting!!

In theory, if the mil want to send you on a course to improve your employability such as an advanced radar wiggly amp thingy course, then if it is going to hurt you a lot in the pocket, you must have the right to say NO!

You cannot be ordered to spend your money.

Any informed people out there that could offer comment?

[zed3]

Never have been in the services but if this is true it is scandelous and heads should roll but won't . I have every respect for everyone of you highly qualified people who put their lives on the edge when required to defend our land and ideals . Thank you and fight on - in all respects .

[The Helpful Stacker]

A lad in my section has already turned down an Environmental Protection course at Halton over this.

Thankfully the only courses I've left to do between now and my departure from the Royal Air Force are resettlement ones.:ok:

[Rigchick]

From what I can gather this will apply to all ranks!

The problem I have at the moment is that in order to be eligible for promotion I have to do my Multi-skilling course. If I turn it down I'm screwing up any further career I may have! Talk about being caught between and rock and a hard place!:ugh:

If you could opt out of eating in the mess it would help but we don't even have that option:mad:

[The Helpful Stacker]

If you could opt out of eating in the mess it would help but we don't even have that option

Does that include pay as you starve messes?

[Rigchick]

From the DIN I read it seems that you will be charged IAW the Core menu, so you'll only pay for the food you actually eat, which is a damn sight more palatable than paying for food you don't. I haven't eaten in a Mess since my training days!:yuk:

[No Vote Joe]

So does this mean that you will no longer be entitled to sunsistance if you are put up in a Hotel?

Stay in a hotel and get money for food or stay in a cr*p mess and have to pay for it??!!:mad::confused:

[mustflywillfly]

I get sent on courses and am not allowed to stay in a hotel. I am forced to stay in a service mess even when the course is run in Bristol, there is a Holiday Inn next door and all the Civilian bods / Army and RAF are staying in the hotel. They walk round the corner to the hotel, I have to drive down the M4 each night to stay at RAF Lyneham!!

How long this inequality can continue I don't know? We are being squeezed from every angle for every last penny at the moment.

Aaaaaarrrrggghhhhhh:ugh:

[TonkaEngO]

A letter in the latest RAF News brings this subject up. It is answered, in a very wooly fashion, by a PMA spokesman. Will be interesting to see how it develops - one of my guys has just postponed a Proj Management cse due to the financial aspects. If he can get a CHBS booking, already approved by me, he will be entitled to free hotel accommodation plus £21/day. If not he will have to stay in the Stn's transit block and pay for his food that he eats in the mess - or off Stn.
Any one tried/tested this approach?

[No Vote Joe]

On the subject of courses and accom (slightly off thread, sorry), if there is no accom within 5 miles of the course location, you are entitled to a hotel.

These regs changed with JPA last year from the old 20 mile (or was it 15?) criteria. Check it out!!!:ok:

[Pontius Navigator]

and if that does not work insist on 40p/mile, MT, or a hire car.

[Top Right]

TonkaEngo,
I'd say the official reply in the RAF News article doesn't answer any of the direct questions placed, let alone being woolly. The flt lt raises some good points that are ignored by the spin-reply.

Good luck to you though for trying the CHBS route!

[jollygreenfunmachine]

Excuse the dullness. Does this just cover courses or will guys also be paying for food when in Basra and Helmand?

[ProfessionalStudent]

If your det is classed as "Field Conditions" then you don't have to pay food. So Basrah and Helmand are free.

I think this is one of THE worst examples of the erosion of benefits so far. There can be no-one here who thinks this is fair and right. Can we start a Number 10 petition? there's one for everything else...

[Rigchick]

According to the DIN the regs for Field Conditions, Duty meals and FIA are not changing. However knowing how things change without any notice, I wouldn't hold my breath. :uhoh:

[cooheed]

Excuse the dullness. Does this just cover courses or will guys also be paying for food when in Basra and Helmand?

Told a few years ago by a catering WO that 'free food' OOA is actually paid for by the 'living-in' singlie. Messes only get about £1.50 (the daily messing rate) to feed an individual. The other £2 odds goes to pay for 24 rat packs and OOA!! And I don't think he was joking either.

[Inginear]

With the change in rules does it actually mean that we cannot claim the costs back through JPA?

Free food on courses meant to me that I signed the duty register and that no charge was levied to me directly. If I now pay a charge I do not see why/how this differs from being in a hotel etc Simply upon return to base, fill in JPA and claim back the additional food charges. I may be being dull but I cannot see how the system could object.:ugh:

As to accom charges, its been a while since I stayed in an away mess but I seem to remember that when you stay in the mess "on duty" you only pay for extra messing not an actual nightly rate for the room. I await to be corrected.

Perhaps an "expert" ;) could please advise. I do not have access to online documentation as I am loaned to Industry at the moment, but still have to claim through JPA. Thanks

[No Vote Joe]

I think that you can claim £5 per night incidental expenses, to cover the cost of a newspaper, 3 min phone call and laundry, whether in Mess or Hotel accom.

Initially, no receipt was needed as the sum was under £5, then you did need to provide proof of expenditure, now I believe it has reverted to a flat rate of £5 per night.

This will go some way to offsetting this charge.

[Wader2]

Cooheed, I am sorryto say he was not joking. Have you ever known a WO joke?

The bigger joke is that the RAF Police dogs get free food and accommodation with the food element some 3 times that of an airman.

OK, the dogs can't PVR and are terminated with extreme prejudice when they retire but . . .

BTW, while an RAF police dog got something well over £9 per day we got food for our German Shepherd at £7.99 for 15 kg or 6-7 weeks supply.

[philrigger]

Pontius
Now the stupid thing is that the civil servant, on say the same course at Halton, will be in a hotel and entittled to half a bottle of wine with dinner every evening.


Why is it stupid ?
The service personnel should be fighting to get what we get not to take away what we have.
I believe tha you are a CS, so what is your gripe ?


'We knew how to whinge but we kept it in the NAAFI bar.'

[Wader2]

Philrigger, maybe what is stupid is that the rules for two people of the same course should be so different?

Would the trades unions acquiesce to a change of T&C like that?

[blogger]

Situation: 2 sac's sent on the same course.

SAC 1, Gets accomdation in the block therefore is forced to eat in the mess hall and he has to pay for it.

SAC2, Finds the Block is full and get put into a CHBS hotel gets free food and a drink paid for.

What a load of ***** our lords and masters have brought down on us.

The RAF is killing it's self with actions like this. Also this is out in the letters page of the RAF news, The Wg Cmdr's reply was so typical of what we have come to expect......

That is Shut up and lie down and take what we throw at you........

[samuraimatt]

Well if SAC 1 had arrived after SAC 2 he would have been put in the Hotel. That would probably have wiped the smile off of SAC 2's face.

[Pontius Navigator]

Philrigger, The service personnel should be fighting to get what we get not to take away what we have.

I believe tha you are a CS, so what is your gripe ?

My gripe? Trying to explain one rule for you and one rule for me. I am supposed to encourage through career training and they say 'can't afford it.' Where does that leave me?

I want to send a man on a course, he wants to go on the course, BUT . . .

Now if they said I had to stay in a mess I would simply declare that I was unavailable.

[blogger]

I would like to know if it is laid down somewhere that:

'If you live in a block or mess you must pay for food at that location'

Why can't I opt out of paying food charges? Supply my own bread, butter, cheese and make my own butties? And therefore not pay for food....

After all pay as you dine is bringing this in is it not!

So back to the SAC's on the course SAC 2 says cant afford the food i'll make my own butties how can he be forced to pay for RAF food.

Seems to me that the Detachment food budget in Afgan and Iraq is costing to much and they need to claw it back some how...disgusting if you ask me.

[samuraimatt]

So back to the SAC's on the course SAC 2 says cant afford the food i'll make my own butties how can he be forced to pay for RAF food.Blogger. I thought SAC 2 in your original post had got a hotel. If this is the case then he would get free food, so why would he need sandwiches?:confused:

[Pontius Navigator]

Ah but Matt, SAC2 got there first in the end got SAC1s billet and SAC1 had to use the hotel.

Do keep up. :)

[samuraimatt]

Ah sorry, I didn't think he would actually make as I suggested, must have got an earlier train. Anyway would the SAC 2 be allowed to make sandwiches in the block?

[Pontius Navigator]

More to the point, where would he be able to buy the sandwiches?

I suppose if he was in SLAM he could use the kitchen. :)

It really is a b** of w***.

I did a course about 6 years ago. A civil servant who lived near Halton and actually travelled further to work every day was authorised to be resident on the course so he could mix with others on the course.

He was in the Holiday Inn in Aylesbury, two other civil servants were in different hotels/b&b and all the uniforms were in NOM. Socialisation :mad:

[samuraimatt]

Sorry Pontious, but I don't care about the Civil servants. This thread is about the RAF people who will be out of pockets.

[vecvechookattack]

I think that you can claim £5 per night incidental expenses, to cover the cost of a newspaper, 3 min phone call and laundry, whether in Mess or Hotel accom.

Initially, no receipt was needed as the sum was under £5, then you did need to provide proof of expenditure, now I believe it has reverted to a flat rate of £5 per night.



I understood the rule to be UPTO £5 per night. I'm not sure you can buy a Daily Mirror and claim a fiver for it.

[ZH875]

As per usual VVCH, you are behind the drag curve.

Incidental Expenses (IE) is claimed at a FLAT RATE of £5 per night (UK) and £10 per night (Overseas). NO reciepts are required, NO proof of expenditure is required.

It all changed on 1 May 07.


ZH

[Pontius Navigator]

Samurai, are you sure it is only about RAF? Is it a self-inflicted wound not aimed at RN and Army?

As for Civil Servants, whilst I applaud your concentration on servicemen I think you should also look at the civil service too. If they are doing the same job, and many are, at lower pay (not whinging), why are their T&C so different?

You could argue all day about the x-factor but the CS is entitled to a non-mess accomodation and half a bottle of wine per evening meal. The subsistence is not capped. Education allowances are consideraby greater although the SLC does someting to redress that balance.

There are many little perks attached to the CS. You should be asking why you are discriminated against.

[Almost_done]

Blogger
Why can't I opt out of paying food charges? Supply my own bread, butter, cheese and make my own butties? And therefore not pay for food....


Under the JSP :ugh:we are not allowed to buy the food to make butties, all meals must be bought made and served on a plate.

[Mad_Mark]

If they are doing the same job, and many are, at lower pay (not whinging), why are their T&C so different?

Doing the same job? I can't remember seeing many Civil Serpents in the sand pit on my last visit, or the one before that, or the one before that, or......

MadMark!!! :mad:

[Pontius Navigator]

MM, I am assure that some were there. No, they are not the ones I was thinking of, I was thinking of the ones whose jobs are the same or similar, even though they work only a 37 hour week, do not guard, and do not get the x-factor. The one in the travel cell springs to mind.

Better education package, arguably unused, wine with evening meal etc etc. THAT is the inequality you should be highlighting as well as stopping this drip feed.

What is the fundamental reason for introducing charging? Are our masters so strapped for cash that they are squeezing until the pips squeak (Dennis Healey). Allegedly the 4*s, at least Army and Navy, will be staying in messes in future. I hope they remember to bring a towl and a dressing gown.