Spitfire v Lightning

[doubledolphins]

A recent Telegraph obit for AM Sir John Nicholls described combat tests carried out in 1963 between him in a Spifire and a Lightning. Sounds like great fun. The reason given was that the indonesians were using P 51s against us.Therefore some idea of the tactics that might be used against us needed to be established. (Can't remember the full details as I left the paper on the flight deck for the next crew.)

I have an old accaintence who once told me of a sortie he flew in a Buccaneer. He was some what startled to see a Mustang flash past down his right hand side and thought no more of it until he recovered back on the carrier. Then it was pointed out to him that he had a few holes in his tail.

Does any one out there know if this incedent prompted the tests? Were the Navy and RAF talking to each other any way? What were the chances of deploying Lightnings to the Confrontation? Has any one shot down a mustang with a jet. (Including the Germans.)

The US toyed with the idea of the Piper Enforcer in the 1970s. A P 51 with a turbo prop.

I think I am correct in saying That "Hoagy" Carmichael's kill of a mig in Sea Fury is the only reported piston kill of a jet.

[Spaghetti Monster]

I think I am correct in saying That "Hoagy" Carmichael's kill of a mig in Sea Fury is the only reported piston kill of a jet.

You are correct, as long as you discount however many Me 262s were shot down by Mustangs, Spitfires, Tempests, etc in WW2.

[Wiley]

Has any one shot down a mustang with a jet. Quite a few Mustangs were shot down by MiG15s in Korea, I think.

Milt, who sometimes posts here on Pprune, might be able to give some details if someone would give him a heads up about this thread, as he flew P51s out of Iwakuni right at the very start of that particular 'police action'.

Regarding the piston aircraft MiG15 kill(s), I seem to recall a USMC Corsair claimed a MiG kill as well, but can't recall any details.

[brickhistory]

Regarding the piston aircraft MiG15 kill(s), I seem to recall a USMC Corsair claimed a MiG kill as well, but can't recall any details.

On September 10, 1952, Captain Jesse Folmar of Marine Fighter Squadron VMF-312 destroyed a MiG-15 in aerial combat over the west coast of Korea.

http://www.nasm.si.edu/research/aero/aircraft/voughtf4.htm

Re P-51 victory over MiG-15:

Making a quick acrobatic maneuver, “Miss Dee” barely screamed past the MiG at 5,000 feet, so close that the major could see the “ruddy” face of the pilot. He quickly peeled away and ran south. Major Yingling’s wingman saw the MiG pilot bail out of his crippled aircraft — confirming the aerial kill.

http://www.af.mil/news/airman/0107/yingling.shtml

Plus several probables listed from other pilots.

[Wader2]

The reason given was that the indonesians were using P 51s against us.Therefore some idea of the tactics that might be used against us needed to be established. (Can't remember the full details as I left the paper on the flight deck for the next crew.)

Confrontation 1960-1966

I have an old accaintence who once told me of a sortie he flew in a Buccaneer. He was some what startled to see a Mustang flash past down his right hand side and thought no more of it until he recovered back on the carrier. Then it was pointed out to him that he had a few holes in his tail.

Does any one out there know if this incedent prompted the tests? Were the Navy and RAF talking to each other any way?

No and not as far as I know.

From 1963 to 1967 HMS Victorious was in the Far East. She was equipped with Buccaneers therefore the incident couldhave occurred. http://www.seavixen.org/index.cfm?fa=contentGeneric.amsybmvkhafrbbal&pageId=56720

Dr David Easter's book, Britaina nd the Confrontation with Indonesia 1960-1966 makes no mention of such an incident. A flashpoint would have occurred in Sep 1964 with the RN exercising right of passage through the Sunda Strait. Two of Victorious destroyer escort would force the strait from the south with Victorious and Centaur providing air cover.

In 1964 60 Sqn and 64 Sqn Javelines were deployed to Malaysia and Singapore.

What were the chances of deploying Lightnings to the Confrontation?

High although Confrontation came to an end in Aug 66 and 74 Sqn Lightnings did not deploy until Jul 67. Clearly there were plans afoot to deploy them if needed. They may had deployed earlier had the Valiant tanker force not been grounded in Jan 1965. From 1965 until the Victor bombers had been converted UK AD Tanker Support was provided by KC135 out of Mildenhall under Exercise Billy Boy. I doubt they would have been used for a Tiger Trail.

[Dan Winterland]

And an O2 (military Cesena 337) bought down a MiG21 in Vietnam. but there was a lot of luck involved!

[Wader2]

Dan, good luck, bad luck or bad flying good flying?

Kills a kill.

[ORAC]

USS Midway, Skyraider kills, Vietnam, 1965.

20 JUN 65 : MiG-17 : VA-25 : A-1H Skyraider : Guns : LT C. B. Johnson : Half credit: shared kill with LTJG C. W. Hartman III

20 JUN 65 : MiG-17 : VA-25 : A-1H Skyraider : Guns : LTJG C. W. Hartman III : Half credit: shared kill with LT C. B. Johnson

http://www.midwaysailor.com/midway1960/va25ne577-001b.jpg

Skyraider ~VS~ MiG-17 By Capt Clinton B. Johnson, USNR (Ret.) (http://www.midwaysailor.com/midway/shootdowns.html) (halfway down the page).

USS Intrepid Skyraider kills - 9th Oct 66: (http://skyraider.org/skyassn/sartapes/migkill/migkill.htm) While flying a RESCAP mission over North Vietnam from the carrier USS Intrepid on Yankee Station in the Tonkin Gulf, four A-1 Skyraider pilots were engaged by four North Vietnamese MiG-17s. During this encounter, one MiG 17 was confirmed downed, another was probably downed, and a third was damaged.

[Valiantone]

There is a picture in Wings of Fame vol 7 of the Lightning in formation with one of the Spit 19s from the then BoBFlt IIRC.

I'm a little rusty memory wise but I recall the trials were done by either the CFE or the AFDS (IIRC) and flown from Binbrook.

Cheers


V1

[The Helpful Stacker]

Wasn't AFDS based at West Raynham?

[Pontius Navigator]

THS, certainly CFE was.

[om15]

The Griffin powered Mk XIX was the fastest of the Spitfires, this was used to dog fight the Lightning in 1963 as mentioned above, the potential ( or actual) enemy operated P51Ds.

The first US pilot to shoot down a jet was Chuck Yeager flying a P51D, he shot down a ME262.

The RAF did shoot down a few ME262s operating Spitfires, 14/2/1945 Flight Lieutenant FAO Gaze of RAF 610 Sqn shot down a ME262, and in March 1945 Flying Officer Nicholson also shot one down over Germany.
Although the ME262 was faster than the Spitfire, tests demonstated that the ME262 would lose control at Mach 0.86 and the airframe would break up shortly afterwards, the Spitfire could better this in combat.

Source is " Spitfire" by Jonathan Glancey, a very interesting read on the subject.

Best regards,
om15

[wetdreamdriver]

Doubledolphins

When I was under training, my instructor once told me of this incident. He was waiting in the hold to display the Sea Fury at Biggin, when a Buccaneer joined the hold. They then got into a tail chase. I asked who won to which I got the answer - ' Buccaneer's a bomber' - oh! right. silly question!

WDD

[scopey]

And an O2 (military Cesena 337) bought down a MiG21 in Vietnam. but there was a lot of luck involved!

Any links to info on this?

[admin erk]

Does this thread explain the Mustang seen flying over Shabby Wood lunchtime Monday? The FMS version of JSF, perhaps?

[240 Gardner]

Found a copy of "Spitfire" by Stewart Wilson:

http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k43/240Gardner/SpitvFrightening-2.jpg

[Wader2]

Wetdream, that would probably have been a Mk 1 Bucc.

On the F4 one of the instructors was telling about a Bucc v F4.

The Bucc was on the deck, usual max chat, but no match for the F4. With the F4 in his 6 the Bucc dropped a wing and the F4 immediately followed pulling hard.

Only problem, the Bucc hadn't turned.

I also controlled an F15C on to a Bucc flight. As soon as I gave the vector the jock came back with Judy and duly 'splashed' one Bucc. He then trashed around for a bit but it was obvious he had lost the bubble.

I offered more help to which he responded 'Bogey Dope'

" Three Bucc 6 o'clock 2 miles."

[doubledolphins]

Thanks for the info chaps. The Bucc pilot went on to have a distinguished naval career.Sadly cut short after being confined to a wheel chair after banging out of an F4.

[red3]

In '64 I was on a Vixen squadron on HMS Centaur during confrontation and we were briefed by the squadron AWI on how to shoot down an Indon. P51 with 2 inch rockets. It required the P51 to fly straight and level while the looker (me) consulted the tables to work out the gravity-drop/range etc. This produced a hilarious reaction, and the best option seemed to be to overtake the P51 and jettison the droptanks on top of him!

Of course several years before our "experts/leaders" had decided that a gun was not really necessary in a fighter any more!!! I'd rather have one engine and two guns than two engines and no guns!

I then went on to the Lightning F3!!!

[bricklane]

Does anyone know who flew the Lightning during those 1963 Spitfire/Lightning trials at Binbrook?

[The Helpful Stacker]

AM Sir John Nicholls.

[bricklane]

According to Double Dolphin - and the Telegraph obit - Sir John flew the spitfire ...