Backups

[SawThe Light]

I have finally realized that I need to save a copy of my computer data and have been experimenting with Win XP's backup utility, without much luck I'm afraid.

Quite simple really, the computer has two hard drives and I plan to use a plug-in Maxtor external drive to backup into. The great plan has me simply telling the PC to backup the entire C and D drive to the Maxtor (G) and programing the utility to automatically overwrite or modify the backup copy with the daily changes. The Maxtor will easily hold twice the amount of data I have. It sounds easy but my limited ability appears to be the sticking point.

I'd rather use the XP utility than buy a specific backup program, but if I need to, then I must.

I'm keen to hear from fellow PPRuNers who have useful advice on either how to manipulate the XP utility or what I need to buy to do what I want.

Appreciate your input.

STL

[ZFT]

No contest – IMHO Acronis is the way to go.

Recent experiences following a hard disc failure were very positive. No significant issues from clone back from a USB drive onto a new hard drive.

Has incremental back up as you require.

[Saab Dastard]

STL,

What exactly is the problem? Where are you getting stuck?

The XP utility is actually a cut-down of Seagate Backup Exec (this goes back to the days of NT4), which got bought by Veritas, who in turn got bought by Symantec. But I digress.

Despite its age, it is still quite usable, and you can certainly specify USB attached external disks as the backup location.

SD

[Bushfiva]

Another vote for Acronis. Handles data backups and disaster recovery backups with aplomb (because Acronis makes them effectively the same thing).

[SawThe Light]

Saab D

My ideal would be that I copy a selected bunch of folders to the external drive and program the backup utility to have the folders systematically updated at a pre-set time each day (or prior to shutting down) to reflect changes made to the originals. Something similar to the way that my work laptop synchronizes the folders that are backed up on the server would be just fine but I can't see how the XP utility can be optioned to do it.

Am I asking too much of XP here?

[Saab Dastard]

STL,

You can a) select the source to back up, b) select the destination and c) schedule the job, all using the XP backup utility.

I don't see the problem.

SD

[BOAC]

I use the basic MS XP back-up to schedule two full/over-write back-ups a week (covers machine off due to absence) of 'My Documents and Folders' to a different hard drive. Each one goes to a separate folder.

It is easy to set up as SD says and does the job. Acronis is indeed a good programme with lots of other facilities but the 'packaged' back-up is fine for what you want. There is plenty of 'help' with it on the web via Google.

[John Boeman]

My situation is pretty similar to Saw the light's. We have two lappies and a desk top currently in use with the minimum of backing up (on disk) going on!
One lappy has a 20 GB HD, the other approx a 35GB one partitioned in two. The desktop has 80GB but with less than 20 being used.

My bright idea was to buy 2.5" 100GB external drive, "partition" it in four and then just do a complete back up of everything (in case one of the drives dies), with occasional backups afterwards as required.

Went ahead and got the drive and have now spent half a day googling how to partition an HD and at this stage I'm not even sure if what I propose is possible. The "primary, extended or logical" choices have me scratching my head. Oh and I can see in "disk management" on the desktop, it appears to have a seperate (primary?) 55MB FAT (for the OS?) outside the 74.5GB NTFS on the C: drive!?

I have been well and truly reminded that I have never got past the first step on the ladder of computer knowledge!

Could anybody tell me if my original proposal is possible? Advisable? Or do I just need to stop being a tightwad and get seperate backup drives?

[Mac the Knife]

XXCOPY C:\ D:\ /CLONE

Get XXCOPY at http://www.xxcopy.com/index.htm

Or use DeltaCopy (rsync for Windows) - http://www.aboutmyip.com/AboutMyXApp/DeltaCopy.jsp

[John Boeman]

Thanks Mac! Am I right in thinking those will be good for the backing up part of the operation and I just need to find out now, if it's possible, or how, to partition the drive.

[bnt]

Microsoft's ROBOCOPY sounds similar to XXCOPY. If you want something with a friendly interface, and 2-way sync, they also do a nice tool called SyncToy.

[Keef]

Do you need to partition the drive?

I do pretty much what you're suggesting. My plug-in drive has one partition, and four folders on it, called "Laptop", "Desktop", "Old Machine" and "Linux box".

The backup routines on each machine know which folder to use. Within that folder, they create a new folder with the backup date, then copy everything I want backed up into that folder.

When the drive starts to get full, I delete the "in between" backups and keep a selection. Some, I archive off to DVDROM.

Defragging it occasionally is a good idea, too.

I've only used the backup to restore a couple of times in ten years, but it was a lifesaver at the time.

[John Boeman]

I'll look at those as well bnt, thanks.

Keef, I had this idea that I could copy the whole hard drive, os and all, of each machine and that a complete restore would then be a doddle. I think I would need partitions for that.

However as it's all looking a bit difficult I think your route will be the answer.

[Bushfiva]

had this idea that I could copy the whole hard drive, os and all, of each machine and that a complete restore would then be a doddle

Still looks like Acronis then.

[Keef]

Yes, you'd need partitions for that.

Can FDISK see the USB drive? If it can, you should be able to partition it using that. If not, one option is to take it out of the caddy and connect it to a laptop (it being a 2½ inch drive) which you boot with a floppy containing FDISK.

If I read your question right (and I'm good at getting the question wrong!), your confusion is about primary, extended, and logical partitions.

Primary is usually the first partition on a drive, and is one you can "boot" from. Different systems limit you to how many of those you can have - anything from one to four, in my experience.

Extended is the rest of the hard drive. You need only one extended partition, using all the rest of the drive that isn't primary. You then break that extended partition down into as many as you like...

Logical partitions. They are actually like subfolders within the extended partition, but if you treat them as separate partitions, they will go along with that.

Changing partitions tends to wipe off everything that's on the drive (not necessarily, but that's the way to work - if you need to preserve stuff, then use Partition Magic or one of the Windows equivalents. Linux stuff is much more accommodating in that respect).

So, my suggestion would be:

1. Decide how many partitions you want (sounds like 4).

2. Create one 25GB primary partition.

3. Create one 75GB ("all the rest of the disk space") extended partition.

4. Create three 25GB logical partitions in the extended (the last one might be a tad more or less than 25GB).

5. Format all those partitions (might take a time).

7. Continue as planned with the clone software - whichever package you've chosen to use.

[Bushfiva]

STILL looks like Acronis then.

Let's ask a different question: out of all those who routinely back up, who's ever had to do a disaster recovery, and succeeded? By which I mean, the machine is in the same state it was an hour ago, and you're working again.

[spannersatcx]

Yep been there done that, used Acronis, it was a few days old but worked.

I have 3 pc's backed up (complete backups) on an external USB HDD, doesn't need seperate partitions, just 3 different folders.

[John Boeman]

Yes, you'd need partitions for that.

doesn't need seperate partitions, just 3 different folders.
:confused:

Firstly, thanks for all the input fellas. Your description of the partitions to create Keef, gives me something to work on if I continue on that route.
However, spannersatcx's method and successful subsequent back up, does suggest that perhaps partitions are not needed?

Having had a look at the software options and being such a clutch on computer anyway, I have taken the good advice and ordered Acronis.

[Mac the Knife]

First of all, having the OS and your data on the same physical drive is not wise.

And backing up to a different partition on the same physical drive is only marginally worse than not backing up at all. Fried drive, corrupted MFT/MBR and bye-bye data forever.

Backing up to a different internal drive on the same drive controller isn't much better, for the same reasons.

Backing up to a removable drive (caddy or USB) is good, but a raw machine readable copy, rather than a backup compressed in some proprietary format that needs the OS and backup program reinstalled is much more flexible.

Imaging the drive to a removable drive is OK, but you must be sure of the integrity of the image. A corrupted image may well lose the lot, rather than just a few files.

I have about 10,000 irreplaceable images (and other stuff) on my main machine's data drive and multiple backup strategies.

1) I do an incremental copy of the data drive to a caddy removable drive that spends most of it's time at work (20km away). This drive gets copied to the work machine when I get there and is stashed away in another part of the building until next time.

2) I have a separate machine hidden away at the far end of the house in a locked cabinet with a fat UPS. This runs FreeNAS (a BSD Unix variant) and the main machine backs up in real time to the primary disk on this machine. The primary disk does a weekly rsync to a secondary disk on this machine and the secondary disk does a monthly rsync to a third drive.

I don't think backing up the OS drive is helpful. If the OS gets hosed or is somehow compromised you'll never know what is reliable. The best restore is a full reinstall.

Paranoid? Sure.

Have I ever lost any data to mechanical or software failure. Not yet.

Mac

[Keef]

A bit like Mac - I don't bother to back up the basic operating system or any of the software that came on CD or install disks. Anything I've downloaded that I reckon I'd want to reinstall quickly is on a CD in the rack in my study.

The thing I don't want to lose is my data. That's the backup routine that goes to the USB drive.

At the moment, I use the laptop in the Norfolk hideyhole, but the next new PC here will see this one go to Norfolk, with the opportunity to back up key stuff between the two using the VPN.

[ZFT]

Bushfiva,

Complete recovery from Acronis following disc failure – everything worked AOK except Acrobat which lost it’s registration.

(I do also back up files though just in case image is corrupted)

[bnt]

I agree with Mac The Knife on the topic of backing up complete OS drives. You're at risk of backing up the bad along with the good - including the problem that leads to your need to use the backup. A bit like replacing a flat tyre with another tyre that has a slow leak. :oh:

What I try and do is keep strict separation between OS and data. If you keep all data under a known location, such as "My Documents" in Windows, it's easy to back up. The easier it is to back up, the more frequently you'll do it, and the more reliable it will be.

My "daily" backup is using the aforementioned SyncToy to synchronize "My Documents", Desktop & Favourites between two PCs (laptop & desktop). That way I can work on either PC, and everything gets fully backed up, as long as I don't modify the same file on both machines at the same time. :=

[SawThe Light]

I must let you folks know that I eventually found exactly what I needed with a program called "AJC Directory Synchroniser". It cost around $30 or so, is simple to use and is does exactly what it says on the side of the tin.

I downloaded a trial copy and admit I had a problem setting it up, but a quick email to the product support folks (who found the problem was me!) an it works just fine.

I have simply copied the entire C drive to an external Maxtor hard drive and set the new program to keep everything synchronised. It does its business at whatever times you care to program it to, and for me, it is a fantastic bit of kit. Well worth a look.

STL

[John Boeman]

Not having a lot of luck with this. Acronis disc arrived this morning so I loaded it up, all ready to go, with my new backup 2.5 drive plugged in and....the computer couldn't see the darned thing (the drive)!

I intended to try going down the seperate folder route (seemed easiest!). I had formatted the drive last week when I got it, without any problem and it has just lain on my desk between now and then.

Anyone got any suggestion as to why the drive has become "invisible" or have I just got a dud?

Strangely, I even get the "The total hard drive capacity in your system has increased" message when I plug it in but when I go to "My Computer" or rt click "Start" - "Explore", no sign of it.

[Mac the Knife]

Looks like this is a Dell specific problem.

See http://www.dellcommunity.com/supportforums/board/message?board.id=pw_harddrive&message.id=1317&query.id=66060#M1317

[BOAC]

Maybe worth checking in My Computer/Hardware to see if it is 'there', and also run TweakUi and make sure you have the required drive letter enabled? You never know.:confused:

[John Boeman]

Yes Mac it was my Dell that gave me that message but the thing is that when it does give a message (it doesn't give one every time) it is correct for the situation i.e. it says capacity has increased when I plug the drive in and says capacity has decreased when I plug the thing out.
Unfortunately the laptops (not Dell) cannot see it either.

No BOAC, no sign of it in the hardware and all the drive letters ticked looking in TweakUi. The thing showed up without a problem as drive E: when I was formatting it.

When I plug it in now, the pointer arrow on the screen flickers a few times as the computer "looks" at it and the drive itself "whirrs" up no problem but that appears to be as far as it goes. Oh well..

[Mac the Knife]

Any reference to it in Settings > Control Panel > Administrative Tools > Computer Management > Disk Management ?

Mac

[edited to add - "it" above obviously means the drive in question]

[John Boeman]

Sorry Mac, been on a trip and left the drive behind. No. there is no sign of the thing showing up anywhere in Disc Management and yet it was perfectly visible when I got it and formatted it.

I'm fairly sure now it's suffered some sort of failure. Will have to see if I can negotiate something with the vendor when I get home or get another one. Thanks (all) for the help.

[FakePilot]

I use my linux partition to backup my whole computer.
My restore strategy for complete drive blow is re-install windows followed by apps.
My restore strategy for ooops deleted that file is restore the individual file(s).
All data is stored on an external drive. Now I have a SATA cable hanging out to plug the backup drive in. USB is ok except for space reclamation.

I made my own version of "tar" that uses a database, ala Tivoli. I need the SATA to recover space used by deleted files.

[John Boeman]

The replacement HD finally arrived yesterday, already had Acronis loaded on the machines and I simply copied each hard drive into individual folders. Great - job done in no time! (You sure were right Bushfiva!)

I hear what you are saying, Mac the Knife and bnt, but I will not be doing daily backups and hopefully I will not pick up something that lies dormant too long before doing damage.

Right now I feel very grateful that I got away with not having proper back ups for so long.

Thanks again for all the help and suggestions guys.